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Elendil's Heir
06-01-2007, 05:48 PM
Every year at Pentecost, our church has the following Bible passage (Acts 2:5-15) read aloud, simultaneously, by different parishioners in various languages, including English, Russian, Spanish, French, Xhosa and others, to mimic its "speaking in tongues" content.

I'd like to get it translated into one of Tolkien's languages. Anywhere online where I could submit it for translation? Or could any Doper help me out (Qadgop or What Exit?, perhaps)? The placenames and proper nouns could remain in English.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Thanks.



.

Baker
06-01-2007, 09:05 PM
You might try this link.

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language1.htm#sinpoetry

Frylock
06-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Every year at Pentecost, our church has the following Bible passage (Acts 2:5-15) read aloud, simultaneously, by different parishioners in various languages, including English, Russian, Spanish, French, Xhosa and others, to mimic its "speaking in tongues" content.

I'd like to get it translated into one of Tolkien's languages. Anywhere online where I could submit it for translation? Or could any Doper help me out (Qadgop or What Exit?, perhaps)? The placenames and proper nouns could remain in English.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Thanks.



.

Are you...

Are you going to read it in church?

-FrL-

Elendil's Heir
06-01-2007, 11:07 PM
...Are you going to read it in church?....

I just might!

Qadgop the Mercotan
06-02-2007, 09:58 AM
What Baker linked to.

Also, http://sindarin.weet.us/ for Sindarin.

And here's a board devoted to translation help: http://pub83.ezboard.com/belfcomp
It seems like more of a cobweb site recently, but some useful emails or other links can be found there.

Otherwise, try contacting David Salo. He's the linguistic expert at University of Wisconsin that helped with the LOTR films. I won't give his email here, as he's not okayed me to distribute it, but a little googling on his name would turn up contact info, I'm sure.

BrainGlutton
06-02-2007, 05:46 PM
I just might!

Is anyone else in the congregation a Tolkein fan?

(You know, there doesn't seem to be much religion of any kind in Middle Earth . . .)

Baker
06-03-2007, 09:12 AM
Has anyone read S.M. Stirling's series that begins with Dies the Fire? A group of supporting characters in that series starts speaking the Elvish tongues. At one point it's mentioned they have to create terms that didn't exist, like "to pee". :D

BrainGlutton
06-03-2007, 02:09 PM
Translation into Sindarin, Quenya or Westron

I didn't even have to look that up to get it.

Are we geeks, or are we geeks? :)

coffeecat
06-03-2007, 02:20 PM
I'd love to see a service where it was read in Swedish Chef:

5 Und zeere-a vere-a dvelleeng et Jerooselem Joos, defuoot mee, oooot ooff ifery neshun under heefee.
6 Noo vhee thees ves nueesed ebrued, zee moolteetoode-a ceme-a tugezeer, und vere-a cunffuoonded, becoose-a thet ifery mun heerd zeem speek in hees oovn lungooege-a.
7 Und zeey vere-a ell emezed und merfelled, seyeeng oone-a tu unuzeer, Behuld, ere-a nut ell zeese-a vheech speek Geleeleeuns?
8 Und hoo heer ve-a ifery mun in oooor oovn tungooe-a, vhereeen ve-a vere-a burn?
9 Pertheeuns, und Medes, und Ilemeetes, und zee dvellers in Mesuputemeea, und in Joodeea, und Ceppeduceea, in Puntoos, und Eseea,
10 Phrygeea, und Pemphyleea, in Igypt, und in zee perts ooff Leebya ebuoot Cyrene-a, und strungers ooff Rume-a, Joos und pruselytes,
11 Cretes und Erebeeuns, ve-a du heer zeem speek in oooor tungooes zee vunderffool vurks ooff Gud.
12 Und zeey vere-a ell emezed, und vere-a in duoobt, seyeeng oone-a tu unuzeer, Vhet meunet thees?
13 Oozeers muckeeng seeed, Zeese-a mee ere-a fooll ooff noo veene-a.
14 Boot Peter, stundeeng up veet zee ilefee, leeffted up hees fueece-a, und seeed untu zeem, Ye-a mee ooff Joodeea, und ell ye-a thet dvell et Jerooselem, be-a thees knoon untu yuoo, und heerkee tu my vurds:
15 Fur zeese-a ere-a nut droonkee, es ye-a sooppuse-a, seeeeng it is boot zee thurd huoor ooff zee dey.
Bork Bork Bork!

BrainGlutton
06-03-2007, 02:34 PM
I'd love to see a service where it was read in Swedish Chef:

In high-school English class we read (out loud) the Our Father in Old English. (http://www.lphrc.org/rmk/Pray/ang-our.html)

It sounded exactly like the Swedish Chef!

Elendil's Heir
06-04-2007, 08:17 AM
Is anyone else in the congregation a Tolkein fan?

(You know, there doesn't seem to be much religion of any kind in Middle Earth . . .)

Yes, the rector (top priest) and I are both Tolkien freaks. He once built an entire sermon around a passage in "The Return of the King," where Frodo and Sam are in Mordor. Sam looks up and sees a star high in the sky, brightly shining despite the gloom of Mordor all around him, and takes heart.

Hypno-Toad
06-04-2007, 08:26 AM
I'd like to hear it in Blikster.

Baker
06-04-2007, 10:50 PM
Yes, the rector (top priest) and I are both Tolkien freaks. He once built an entire sermon around a passage in "The Return of the King," where Frodo and Sam are in Mordor. Sam looks up and sees a star high in the sky, brightly shining despite the gloom of Mordor all around him, and takes heart.

So, Elendil's Heir, sounds like you're Episcopalian too! That makes at least three of us on the Dope, probably more. I know swampbear is also "one of us"!

We had three languages last Pentecost. One member spoke an African language, not sure what it was. The wife of our canon spoke in her native Filipino, and one member, from Sri Lanka, spoke his native language(also not sure of the name). It made a change from the usual German, or Spanish, or other European tongues. I could do Korean. Wouldn't know what I was saying anymore, but the alphabet is phonetic and I can still pronounce it.

swampbear
06-10-2007, 06:19 PM
I say next Pentecost all us Episcopal types form a pact and get the passage read in Elvish and Klingon!

Hmmm... maybe I need to work on the "southern American" translation too. :D

Elendil's Heir
06-11-2007, 11:29 PM
So, Elendil's Heir, sounds like you're Episcopalian too! That makes at least three of us on the Dope, probably more. I know swampbear is also "one of us"!....

Yes, I am! Remember this? http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=376678

Thanks, everyone, for your help.

Baker
06-12-2007, 04:35 AM
Heck, I wasn't remembering that! I have really bad memory retention. Good thread though.

I agree with swampbear. If I could get a good translation into one of the Middle Earth languages, or into Klingon, I could masquerade it as something else on Pentecost. Well, maybe not, our bishop is a bit of a sobersides, but I could do it for Sunday School, the kids would think it was cool.

BMalion
06-12-2007, 09:09 AM
So, what have you got against Klingonese?

Elendil's Heir
06-12-2007, 10:48 AM
If you're asking me, nothing. But our rector is more of a Tolkien freak than a Trekker. Don't know if he'd go for Klingonese (even if "the whole quadrant is learning to speak it!").

Elendil's Heir
06-28-2007, 11:31 PM
An update.

Qadgop, my thanks, as your second link led me to a very helpful Tolkien linguist from Norway named Helge Fauskanger. He wrote this:

Here is a rough "Neo-Quenya" translation that should be good enough for your purpose. I must tell you, as I have told so many others, that translating anything into a Tolkien language is an art rather than an exact science. Even for this short text, I had to derive some new words from Tolkien's roots. For instance, no word for "proselytes" occurs in Tolkien's material; the term querindor here used means basically people who turn, i.e. to the religion of the Jews. You said I could leave the proper names alone, but some of them must actually be changed to fit the phonological structure of Quenya. For instance, the name "Cappadocia" must become Capparocia because Quenya cannot have D in this position; it must change to R. ...I cannot tell for certain whether Tolkien would have recognized this as acceptable Quenya at all. But it is about the best I can do, based on published material....

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Ar marner Yerúsalemessë Yúrar, neri estelo, et ilya nórello nu menel.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Sí írë lamma sina hlárina né, i rimbë hostanë, ar neltë rucinë, an ilya nérte-hlarnë quéta véra lamberyassë.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Ar neltë illi quantë elmendo, quétala minë i exenna, En! ma umir ilyë iquétar Alílëar?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Ar manen hlarilwë ilya nér véra lambelwassë, yassë nelwë nónë?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Parsëar, ar Méri, ar Elamyar, ar i marir Mesopotamiassë, ar Yúrëassë, ar mi Capparocia, ar Pontus, ar Ásia, Feríhia, ar Pamfilia, Mirrandoressë, ar irantassen Livyo os Cirénë, ar ettelëar Rómo, Yúrar ar querindor, Hrétëarar Aravyar, hlarilwet quéta vérë lambelwassen pa Eruo elmendar.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Ar neltë illi quantë elmendo, ar úmer tancë, quétina minë i exenna: Mana tëasin?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Exi quenter yaiwessë: Neri sinë nar quantë vinya limpëo.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Mal Péter, ortala as i minquë, ortanë ómarya ar quentë tienna: A neri Yúrëo,ar ilyë i marir Yerúsalemessë, na sin istaina len, ar lasta quettanyannar:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
An queni sinë umir limpunquë, ve intyaldë, an sin er i neldëa lúmë i aurëoná.

BMalion
06-29-2007, 07:36 AM
I am in awe.

Qadgop the Mercotan
06-29-2007, 07:55 AM
That's just beautiful! <<dabs tears away>>

Glad to be of help.

What Exit?
06-29-2007, 08:26 AM
That is very cool. Hopefully it goes over very well.

Hypno-Toad
06-29-2007, 08:49 AM
I still prefer Blikster.

Baker
06-29-2007, 12:13 PM
There has got to be some way I can pass off Quenya and get this on the ticket for next Pentecost at my church!

It reads easier than my extremely rusty Korean. To read that fluidly anymore I'd have to transliterate the Hangul letters into Roman script.

Elendil's Heir
06-29-2007, 02:55 PM
I tried saying a few lines last night, and it flowed wonderfully off the tongue. My pronunciation might have made the Professor wince, and I'm not sure I could have made Elladan and Elrohir understand me, but it was fun.

Now I'm looking forward to doing the entire reading in church. Pentecost 2008 can't come too soon!

BMalion
06-29-2007, 03:06 PM
I just hope your pastor doesn't get all upset.

"Never before have words in that tongue be spoken here!"

Elendil's Heir
06-29-2007, 03:10 PM
He's already seen the translation and was quite pleased.

John Mace
06-29-2007, 04:48 PM
Nice indeed. I recommend contacting Liv Tyler to help you with the, uh, pronunciation. :)

Elendil's Heir
06-29-2007, 10:56 PM
An excellent idea. I'll get right on her... I mean, it.

Elendil's Heir
02-18-2013, 12:29 PM
Yes, the rector (top priest) and I are both Tolkien freaks. He once built an entire sermon around a passage in The Return of the King, where Frodo and Sam are in Mordor. Sam looks up and sees a star high in the sky, brightly shining despite the gloom of Mordor all around him, and takes heart.

And here's that sermon, which he refined from many years before when he first delivered it at another parish. He delivered it again on Christmas Eve. Very good stuff (.pdf file): http://www.stpauls-church.org/documents/Sermons/2012%2012%2024%20Star%20over%20Mordor%20Star%20over%20Bethlehem%20AMG.pdf

Baker
02-18-2013, 01:10 PM
Oh that sermon was wonderful! I have a real respect for good preachers, it's a very difficult job.

I once had to deliver two sermons. The church I was a member of was between clergy, and while we could usually get a supply pastor, a couple of Sundays nobody was available.

Yours truly was head of the Worship Committee, so it fell to me to conduct the services. Not so hard, I don't have a fear of public speaking, once I have a speech in front of me. But writing a good sermon is harder than an ordinary speech.

I keep a file of good sermons I've heard and really liked, I'm going to add that one to it!:p

Oh, and I have done the Pentecost readings as one of the "tongues" for the past two years now, in Korean.

Lasciel
02-18-2013, 01:22 PM
I'm so glad you updated this thread - somehow I missed the translation that had been posted earlier.

That is beautiful - so flowing and elegant. A perfect addition to the service, I think.

(I still want to see Klingon - I imagine it will end up being a bit more... insistent sounding. "Praise the Lord or I gut you like a khlath-fish!" :D )

Also, I don't know if this is possible after all this time, but do you think someone who is reasonably fluent could post an audio of the Elvish up to YouTube? Personally, I think it would be lovely just to have it out there (I would love to see the reaction to someone translating it and figuring out what it was!) but also, I have to think that there are other reasonably geeky Episcopalians out there who would be all for using Quenya themselves, they just don't know how to read the language properly or confidently.

Elendil's Heir
02-18-2013, 06:50 PM
Straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6de_SbVUVfA

Baker
02-18-2013, 07:42 PM
Oh that is great. I'd never heard Tolkien's voice before.

SCAdian
02-18-2013, 07:49 PM
I say next Pentecost all us Episcopal types form a pact and get the passage read in Elvish and Klingon!

Hmmm... maybe I need to work on the "southern American" translation too. :D

Long, long ago (ca 1970-72) my mother had a New Testament written in "Georgian" - replacing original terms with words your typical Georgian could relate to. So the Mount of Olives became "Peach Tree Hill" (what does an olive tree look like?), and there were several instances where "this here Jesus" walked from Atlanta to Macon or vice versa (how far is it from Nazareth to Jerusalem?).

I thought it was The Peach Tree Bible, but Google is being unhelpful....

Baker
02-18-2013, 09:08 PM
Try The Cotton Patch Gospel, and example is in the link.

http://hopefaithprayer.com/scriptures/cotton-patch-gospel-matthew-clarence-jordan/

Lasciel
02-18-2013, 09:14 PM
Oh my stars. That was impressive, that was.

Baker
02-18-2013, 09:20 PM
Oh my stars. That was impressive, that was.

I liked the link to the Christmas story in Luke.

Elendil's Heir
04-07-2013, 08:39 PM
And here's that sermon, which he refined from many years before when he first delivered it at another parish. He delivered it again on Christmas Eve. Very good stuff (.pdf file): http://www.stpauls-church.org/documents/Sermons/2012%2012%2024%20Star%20over%20Mordor%20Star%20over%20Bethlehem%20AMG.pdf

I thought I'd post the sermon here in case it's ever removed from the parish website:


A sermon for Christmas Eve 2012
at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church, Cleveland Heights, Ohio
by the Reverend Alan M. Gates, Rector
"Star over Mordor, Star over Bethlehem"

“Okay, children,” said Dr. Rick Nelson last Thursday after the children’s choir rehearsal. “Before
we enjoy our dinner together, let’s sing the Doxology.” The children put on their best angelic faces, and
began: “Praise God from whom all blessings flow…” And then, as I watched one little girl, I saw her
sing earnestly: “Praise him all preachers here below!” (That’s Preachers, with a P.) And, why not?
Praise him, all preachers here below. My heart melted a little to think of the Doxology as a special
invocation for the preacher. But it is, of course, an invocation for all God’s people. Praise God all
creatures, here below. On this night of festive pomp and singing; on this night of light and joy, Praise
God. Praise God, from whom all blessings flow.
Travel with me to Middle Earth, that land so masterfully created by J. R. R. Tolkien. This month
we have been taken back to Middle Earth with the release of Peter Jackson’s film, The Hobbit, part the
first. The Lord of the Ringstrilogy was a remarkable piece of cinema in the last decade, while the books
captivated many of us decades before. So now, if you will, let us take up near the final segment of the
tale. It is a scene which did not make it into the film, yet has always been for me one of the most moving
passages in the entire cycle.
The hobbit Frodo Baggins and his faithful servant Sam are near the end of their long and bitter
journey. Their dangerous mission hastaken them from peril to deadly peril, and finally into the heart of
the Enemy’s barren, evil land. They are in Mordor, in the very shadow of Mount Doom. A strange cloud
has covered the sky for days – a shadow created as a weapon of the enemy. Exhausted beyond words, the
two hobbits have collapsed for the night under a curtain of brambles. Frodo has fallen asleep.
Sam struggled with his own weariness…. Then at last, to keep himself awake, he crawled from
the hiding-place and looked out. The land seemed full of creaking and cracking and sly noises….
Far above… the night sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the [clouds, high above]
the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he
looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the
thought pierced him that in the end the [evil] Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there
was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even
his master’s, ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the brambles and laid himself by
Frodo’s side, and putting away all fear, he cast himself into a deep, untroubled sleep. [LOR, Book
VI, Chapter 2]
A hopeless journey. A foreboding cloud. A small, white star, twinkling in the darkness. A re-kindling of
hope.
Hear again tonight’s words from the prophet Isaiah: The people who walked in darkness have
seen a great light; those who lived in a land of deep darkness – on them light has shined…. For a child
has been born for us, a son given to us; … and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.[Is 9:2-4, 6-7]
Christians gather in churches everywhere this holy night to hear again the story of God’s light
come into the world. We hear how shepherds, in their own dark night, were startled by the brightness of
God’s glory. And did you hear what the angels said to the shepherds? In that first announcement of
Christ’s birth to humankind, the angel does not say, “Greetings! Merry Christmas!” The angel says,
“Fear not.” Be not afraid!
That is the Christmas message to us, my friends: be not afraid. For we are not strangers to dark
clouds and fearful forebodings. A cloud of grief covers the nation, as the Commemoration of the Holy
Innocents arrived early this year; a cloud of anguish and frustration, at our collective failure to keep safe
the vulnerable in our midst. A cloud of threat and fratricide hangs over the land of our Savior, where a
desperate dictator bombs his own people, and ancient enmities claim new victims in the name of religious
entitlement. A cloud of war hangs yet over Afghan skies, where would-be peacekeepers are entangled in
a deadly web. A cloud of sorrow hangs over our homes, where our dearly loved ones ail, and our broken
loves fail. Dark clouds we know, we know them well.
On this night a shaft of light shines down upon us. And reassurance is ours! Christ is born. God
is with us. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light. A light of hope – for whom? For
the frightened child, crying out in the dark of night. For the spiritual kin to that hobbit, weary traveler in
the gloom of an evil land. For every person without roof or hearth. For the bread-winner who has lost her
job. For the soldier under Afghan skies. For the bereaved parent, whose grief is immeasurable. For the
one whose future is uncertain. For you and for me in our own loneliness, discouragement, or despair.
Jesus Christ was born for you and for me.
J.R.R. Tolkien was no stranger to sorrow nor to desperate circumstance. He lost his father at age
three, and his mother at age twelve. In World War I the young Tolkien saw combat, suffered from trench
fever, watched close friends die. He lived through the Second World War in a nation threatened by a dark
cloud of annihilation. No Pollyanna was Tolkien, but a man of deep Christian faith. He ardently rejected
the notion that his stories were allegorical, yet he was glad to assert that they declared deep truth about
reality.
And so, dear friends, in the reality of our own national life this month, in the reality of personal
blows that perplex us and global dangers that vex us, travel with me once more to look in on the hobbit,
Samwise.
Weary and feeling finally defeated, … he bowed his head into his hands. And then softly, to his
own surprise, there at the vain end of his long journey and his grief, moved by what thought in his
heart he could not tell, Sam began to sing. His voice sounded thin and quavering… He murmured
old childish tunes out of the Shire…, while words of his own came unbidden to fit the simple tune.
Though here at journey’s end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars forever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell. [LOR, Book VI, Chapter 1]
He would not yield to the darkness of despair. He would sing out the conviction of his hope.
Jesus Christ was born for us this night. And how shall we respond? We respond as Samwise did.
We sing out in hope. Perhaps the most important thing we do this night is sing.
In the face of uncertainty, loss, or grief, we sing.
Under the specterterror, we sing.
Into the darkness of the night around us, we sing.
Through joyous laughter, or through lonely tears, we sing: Gloria, in excelsis deo!
Oh, that star! Oh, that twinkling star! The beauty of it smote Sam’s heart. For it reminded him
that, in the end, the enemy’s cloud would have to be a passing thing. That higher, and brighter, and
beyond the reach of any evil Shadow, there was “light and high beauty.”
A star over Mordor said that to Sam.
A Star over Bethlehem says that to us.
The true light which enlightens everyone, has come into the world. [Jn 1:9 ] Higher, brighter, truer than
any cloud under the shadow of which we dwell, the Christ star shines on.
Sing out your joy, o Christian people!

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