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View Full Version : Lost 4.07: "Ji Yeon"


John Mace
03-13-2008, 10:56 AM
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A less than exciting episode last week, so let’s hope this one picks up the pace. Faraday and Lewis either were trying to release poisonous gas or trying to prevent its release-- we really don’t know which. Let’s hope the Lostaways keep a closer watch on those guys…

Does anyone know enough Korean to translate the title of this episode? Looks like it is a female given name, but I don’t know what it’s supposed to mean.

From the preview on Lostpedia for this episode (actually from my TV listings, as Lostpedia doesn’t have anything yet):
"Ji Yeon" : Juliet is forced to reveal startling news to Jin when Sun threatens to go to Locke’s camp. Sayid and Desmond begin to get an idea of the freighter crew’s mission when they meet the ship’s captain.

Some useful Café Society links are given below:

Thread index for Season 1 Episodes: 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=277083) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=278382) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=279542) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280792) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=281998) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283328) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284665) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=285925) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287237) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=289514) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=290718) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295320) 13 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=296591) 14 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=297760) 15 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=301602) 16 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302710) 17 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=303909) 18 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=304986) 19 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309511) 20 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310613) 21 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315048) 22 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=316088) 23 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=317139) 24 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318051)

Thread index for Season 2 Episodes: 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=335991) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=337167) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=338307) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=339366) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=340432) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343878) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=345144) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346239) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=347177) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353542) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354691) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=355716) 13 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357834) 14 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=359015) 15 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=361048) 16 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=363982) 17 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=365010) 18 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=366081) 19 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=367064) 20 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=370033) 21 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=371010) 22 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=371991)

Thread index for Season 3 episodes: 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390771) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=391722) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=392661) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=393629) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394542) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=395368) 7 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407398) 8 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=408446) 9 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=409378) 10 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=410362) 11 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=411321) 12 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=412292) 13 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=413323) 14 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=414347) 15 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=415259) 16 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=416195) 17 ( http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=417197) 18 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418222) 19 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=419145) 20 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=420116) 21 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421113) 22 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421996)

Thread index for Season 4 episodes: 1 ( http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=453462) 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=454618) 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=455630) 4 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=456811) 5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=457801) 6 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458668)

The Official Lost Jargon Thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=286221)

Official “Lost” Questions Thread Season 1 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284542), Season 2 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=336040), Season 3 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390739)

Here are some interesting external links:

The Lost Report (http://hometown.aol.com/qcotms/myhomepage/index.html): A very well written summary of the most current episode often containing interesting insights. I don’t think you’ll find spoilers.

The Tail Section (http://www.thetailsection.com/): Excellent site for still frame photos of key scenes, along with some good analysis. But… beware of spoilers!

Sledgeweb’s Lost… Stuff (http://lost.cubit.net/): Pretty good site, but again beware of spoilers. I use it mainly for the Timeline section, which is an incredibly detailed breakdown of “how long since…?” for almost anything you can think of (pre- and post-plane crash).

Door Map from Episode 2.17 (http://www.thetailsection.com/uploaded_images/cleanwall-707484.jpg). A nicely cleaned up version of the diagram Locke saw while pinned under the lockdown doors. No spoilers.

Lostpedia ( http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Main_Page): The wikipedia of Lost information. Quite a comprehensive site, but beware of spoilers!

ThEmIsFiTiShErE (http://themisfitishere.blogspot.com/): The Misfit offers his whacky commentary on “Lost”. Is he a nut-case or a clever insider? Careful, though, possible spoilers.

Edward The Head
03-13-2008, 11:46 AM
And I'm going to miss this one. My DVR broke last week and I'm trying to fix it, and I have to be somewhere tonight. This sucks.

Flander
03-13-2008, 11:48 AM
Just watch it tomorrow on abc.com. I'll probably do the same because I've got to meet people for trivia tonight.

Edward The Head
03-13-2008, 12:00 PM
That's the thing, the connection at home isn't the best for watching stuff like that. We tried to watch Jericho the other night and it was taking 2 minutes for every 1 minute of show.

tanstaafl
03-13-2008, 12:11 PM
They have been airing the previous week's episode in the 8-9 slot every Thursday (with their "enhancements" at the bottom) so you can probably watch it next week if nothing else.

N9IWP
03-13-2008, 12:28 PM
High school basketball. I think I will record it (the local ABC station is showing it at 1:05AM friday)


Brian

middleman
03-13-2008, 01:37 PM
Lost is worth spending $1.99 on iTunes. It might take a while to download, but once you watch it, it will run fine.

Not too stoked about tonight's episode. I like Jin and Sun on the island as supporting (background) characters, but their stories bore me. The only Jin/Sun-centric episode I enjoyed was the one where her man got tossed (jumped?) out the window.

Flander
03-13-2008, 01:54 PM
That's the thing, the connection at home isn't the best for watching stuff like that. We tried to watch Jericho the other night and it was taking 2 minutes for every 1 minute of show.

Start it up, then go cook dinner or something. Or use BT. The usually have the episode available the next day or so.

well he's back
03-13-2008, 02:40 PM
As for tonight’s episode, I will at the TV booing and hissing when Michael shows up as Ben’s man on the freighter. I would be so happy to be wrong – I really really don’t like that character and am meh about the actor.

UncleRojelio
03-13-2008, 02:44 PM
As for tonight’s episode, I will at the TV booing and hissing when Michael shows up as Ben’s man on the freighter. I would be so happy to be wrong – I really really don’t like that character and am meh about the actor.
Are we taking bets as to whether "Ben's man" actually turns out to be Michael? Cause I'm in the 'not Michael' camp.

vivalostwages
03-13-2008, 03:11 PM
Oh, I'm betting on Michael. Or Walt.

And.....Just had a 42 inch plasma Panasonic High Def flatscreen put in this morning, so this will be the first show I watch on it. Oh boy....

The Chao Goes Mu
03-13-2008, 03:28 PM
Oh, I'm betting on Michael. Or Walt.

And.....Just had a 42 inch plasma Panasonic High Def flatscreen put in this morning, so this will be the first show I watch on it. Oh boy....



How YOU doin'? ;)

John Mace
03-13-2008, 03:38 PM
I posted a question about the title in GQ, but didn't get any responses yet. I'm guessing that it's the name Sun has picked out for her baby. My track record on such guesses is not very good.

As for the man on the boat, I wouldn't be willing to bet on anything. Lots of people seem to think it's Michael (and/or WAAAAALT!!), and I think it could very well be him. The bearing Ben gave to Michael isn't exactly the same as the one Faraday gave to the helicopter pilot guy, but it was close enough. Maybe the boat has moved since Michael took off, or maybe he needed a slightly different bearing since he was starting from a different spot on the island. And Michael (and/or WAAAAAALT!!) might not even know they are his man-- what with all the telepathy going on around the island.

Omniscient
03-13-2008, 03:44 PM
And.....Just had a 42 inch plasma Panasonic High Def flatscreen put in this morning, so this will be the first show I watch on it. Oh boy....

You are really, really going to enjoy this.

Does anyone know enough Korean to translate the title of this episode? Looks like it is a female given name, but I don’t know what it’s supposed to mean.

No idea what it means, but if it is a name, I suppose a pretty good speculation could be that it's the name of Sun's unborn child to be revealed in a flash-forward.

ETA: On preview, I see you beat me to it, bastard.

John Mace
03-13-2008, 03:57 PM
No idea what it means, but if it is a name, I suppose a pretty good speculation could be that it's the name of Sun's unborn child to be revealed in a flash-forward.

ETA: On preview, I see you beat me to it, bastard.
Not really. I wasn't thinking of flash-forward. IIRC, Julliet gave Sun an ultrasound last season, and she knows the baby is going to be a girl. So it wouldn't be odd for her to have picked the name out already. But I think you're rignt-- flash forward it probably is. But will the location of the flash forward be on or off the island? Oceanic 6, anyone?

John Mace
03-13-2008, 04:14 PM
Just checked the transcript. Juliet said it was too early to tell the sex of the fetus. Must be a flash forward.

Kythereia
03-13-2008, 07:43 PM
Are we taking bets as to whether "Ben's man" actually turns out to be Michael? Cause I'm in the 'not Michael' camp.

I'd love it to be a big red herring (and have it be, I don't know, Kelvin or something), but Harold Perrineau's name has been in the credits since the beginning of the season...

A Google whack at "Ji Yeon" turns up a bunch of hits for the episode and, apparently, the name of Miss Korea 1998 (and a Korean actress named Ji-Yeon Park).

So it looks like Sun and Jin's baby is off to a good start. ;)

Gfactor
03-13-2008, 07:49 PM
The pop ups on the rerun show are getting a little better.

Omniscient
03-13-2008, 08:07 PM
Not really. I wasn't thinking of flash-forward. IIRC, Julliet gave Sun an ultrasound last season, and she knows the baby is going to be a girl. So it wouldn't be odd for her to have picked the name out already. But I think you're rignt-- flash forward it probably is. But will the location of the flash forward be on or off the island? Oceanic 6, anyone?
Looks like, before the first commercial break, we are both proven correct.

Mahaloth
03-13-2008, 08:25 PM
When is the year of the Dragon in Korea?

Oh, I just checked and the Year of the Dragon is 2000 and 2012 in Korea?

:confused:

phungi
03-13-2008, 08:52 PM
I can see it now:

"My name is Johnson...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!!!
Johnson"

Loach
03-13-2008, 09:03 PM
Oh. Crap.

The Ol' double flash forward/flash back.

Mahaloth
03-13-2008, 09:05 PM
So I guess I was right. That was 2000.

Harborwolf
03-13-2008, 09:06 PM
I thought something was up when Sun got upset about her ring. That was harsh.

Omniscient
03-13-2008, 09:06 PM
Little devious, that flash-forward / flash-back gimmick with Sun and Jin, making us think he was still alive. The date on the headstone was 9/22/2004 for his death so apparently Jin dies on-island and they pretend he died in the crash as part of the cover story Kate and Jack tell in the courtroom scene from earlier this season.

Wile E
03-13-2008, 09:14 PM
Little devious, that flash-forward / flash-back gimmick with Sun and Jin, making us think he was still alive. The date on the headstone was 9/22/2004 for his death so apparently Jin dies on-island and they pretend he died in the crash as part of the cover story Kate and Jack tell in the courtroom scene from earlier this season.

Or he has to stay behind and is really still on the island? Please, don't kill off Jin.

Also that flash forward/flash back was evil. I was an eensy bit suspicious of why his cell phone was so old fashioned looking but I didn't want to suspect that something happens to him in the future.

Algernon
03-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Oh man. They had me fooled. Suckered me in good with the Jin / Sun story. And I'm so dumb I sat for awhile wondering why they faked Jin's death. Only then did I realize that the Jin story was a flashback. Sheesh. I'm an idiot.

And I still despise Michael. I'm disappointed he's Ben's man on the boat. I was hoping you all were wrong.

Dante
03-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Am I missing someone? I thought we were going to find out who the last of the Oceanic 6 were. So far I have:

Jack
Hurley
Kate
Sayid
Sun

Who's the sixth?

delphica
03-13-2008, 09:18 PM
Oh man, that was sad.

Also, I would kick Juliet in the crotch if I could. I hate her. Nothing her character could ever do in the future could redeem her in my eyes. I hate the look she always has on her face. I hate her teeth.

In other sad news, I accidentally sat on the remote control and changed the channel, then panicked when trying to change it back to Lost. The last bit I saw was when the boat guy pulled out the black box to show Sayid and said it was the box from their flight. By the time I got the remote control straightened out, the scene was wrapping up and the boat guy was saying something about Ben. Anyone care to repeat the gist of the conversation? I'm assuming it was something along the lines of "If your plane crashed on the island, how come we have your black box?"

JohnT
03-13-2008, 09:20 PM
Am I missing someone? I thought we were going to find out who the last of the Oceanic 6 were. So far I have:

Jack
Hurley
Kate
Sayid
Sun

Who's the sixth?

Aaron.

Eyebrows 0f Doom
03-13-2008, 09:21 PM
I had a feeling something was up because the previews had mentioned we find out the last of the Oceanic Six, which both Jin & Sun would have made 7, but then I thought maybe they aren't counting Aaron. I didn't suspect the flashback switcheroo though!

I think Jin is still alive, but Sun had to leave him behind on the island.

BrknButterfly
03-13-2008, 09:29 PM
Do you guys think the captain knows the story about Desmond?

Kythereia
03-13-2008, 09:41 PM
*sigh, :smack:*

I just got that it was a flashback plus flashforward now, and spent the last two minutes of the episode spluttering "but--what--Jin was alive two seconds ago--is he--I don't--"

Tricksy writers, precious.


Side note: I had to clear up the kitchen / talk to my dad, so I missed about two or three minutes after the note slipped through the hatch of the freighter door. Did I miss anything important?


And I get that Juliet was trying to help Sun, but man, she deserved that slap.

tanstaafl
03-13-2008, 09:41 PM
Anyone care to repeat the gist of the conversation? I'm assuming it was something along the lines of "If your plane crashed on the island, how come we have your black box?"
The captain knows who Sayid and Desmond are and knows that Desmond knows Widmore.

He shows them the black box and says it was recovered from the Sunda (?) trench from the wreckage of flight 815. He then says that obviously the wreckage is a fake since Sayid is standing in front of him. He points out that whoever faked the crash also somehow found 324 bodies to put in the fake crash (not to mention the obvious cost). He ends by saying that, given what Widmore has already done, that it is obvious why they have to get Ben.

It struck me at this point that this is why the freighter people are so reluctant to discuss rescuing the survivors. If the survivors suddenly turn up then it is obvious that the crash was faked and, given the effort that Widmore put into faking it, it is also obvious that he won't want his deception to be revealed. Given how ruthless they have portrayed Widmore as being, I'm surprised that even the 6 made it off.

Also, anyone have any idea why Regina killed herself? She was obviously upset about something when Frank talked to her. Was she upset over Minkowski's death?

What went on the first evening on the boat? The other crewman says something to Frank like "are you going to be there?" and Frank said he would be up later. What was that about?

And who did the bloodstain on the wall of the cabin that Eckley was giving to Sayid and Desmond come from. What happened there?

Omniscient
03-13-2008, 09:55 PM
He shows them the black box and says it was recovered from the Sunda (?) trench from the wreckage of flight 815. He then says that obviously the wreckage is a fake since Sayid is standing in front of him. He points out that whoever faked the crash also somehow found 324 bodies to put in the fake crash (not to mention the obvious cost). He ends by saying that, given what Widmore has already done, that it is obvious why they have to get Ben.

It struck me at this point that this is why the freighter people are so reluctant to discuss rescuing the survivors. If the survivors suddenly turn up then it is obvious that the crash was faked and, given the effort that Widmore put into faking it, it is also obvious that he won't want his deception to be revealed. Given how ruthless they have portrayed Widmore as being, I'm surprised that even the 6 made it off.


No, no, no.

The Captain was telling them that the wreckage was found and that all 324 bodies were on board. He says that Widmore went through great expense to acquire the black box. But he says that they should consider the influence and cost it would take to fake that crash and that it explains why they want Ben so bad. Was clear to me that this meant Ben and his people were responsible for faking the wreckage.

Also, anyone have any idea why Regina killed herself? She was obviously upset about something when Frank talked to her. Was she upset over Minkowski's death?
No idea why she killed herself but the captain said that she and others of the crew were having severe "cabin fever". The earlier image of her holding the book upside down probably was meant to indicate that she was pretty much insane. No idea if this means she had similar symptoms to Minkowski or if she had some other malady.

Omniscient
03-13-2008, 10:00 PM
Or he has to stay behind and is really still on the island? Please, don't kill off Jin.

Well, in the tent at the end Jin says something along the lines of "he'll do anything" to get her and the baby off the island. Along with an "I promise". Seems like a pretty heavy handed bit of foreshadowing considering it immediately cut to Jin's grave site. Of course that could mean he sacrifices his chance to get off the island for them, but that seems less likely.

well he's back
03-13-2008, 10:02 PM
Wait a minute - I thought the captain was implying that Ben faked the crash and provided the dead bodies, not that Widmore did.
I'd trust that Captain before I'd trust Michael, by the way.

I like that Rose is staying away from Locke because he's a Kurtz-like maniac.

Given the age of Sun's baby, the Oceanic 6 get away from Devil's Island fairly soon, don't they?
and if Desmond isn't considered one of the Oceanic 6, then does that mean he doesn't go back home? That would be tragic.

delphica
03-13-2008, 10:06 PM
Thanks to tanstaafl and Omni for the recaps. I agree that the point about Ben makes it sound like Ben is responsible for the fake crash (or that the boat guy wants Sayid to believe that, or whatever).


Or he has to stay behind and is really still on the island? Please, don't kill off Jin.


That would be awesome if that happened!

St. Urho
03-13-2008, 10:13 PM
Oh man. They had me fooled. Suckered me in good with the Jin / Sun story. And I'm so dumb I sat for awhile wondering why they faked Jin's death. Only then did I realize that the Jin story was a flashback. Sheesh. I'm an idiot.

And I still despise Michael. I'm disappointed he's Ben's man on the boat. I was hoping you all were wrong.

I wondered why Jin had such an old looking cell phone :smack:

Agreed about Michael.

Kythereia
03-13-2008, 10:14 PM
and if Desmond isn't considered one of the Oceanic 6, then does that mean he doesn't go back home? That would be tragic.

Well, don't forget he wasn't on the plane originally, so he wouldn't be considered an Oceanic survivor...

Of course, the shadowy types who run the Dharma Initiative, plus Papa Widmore, will probably not be happy to see him. Time traveling may help with that. :)

Omniscient
03-13-2008, 10:33 PM
I'm holding out hope that Desmond makes it off. I think he will.

Charles Widmore doesn't really like the dude, but he's never really given us any reason to think he'd be hostile to him. Especially now that Penny is back in love with him, you have to imagine that Daddy Widmore would give into Penny's wishes. Overall I think that Widmore is probably going to end up being a good guy. Self-interested and eager to get rich and powerful, but he's Ben's people's enemy and he'll probably be the one responsible for getting the Oceanic 6 off.

Since Desmond went missing alone, without publicity, and knows the Widmores it'd be very easy for them to rescue him along with the Oceanic 6 and simply send him back to Penny before the media got wind of it. Nothing about the "Oceanic Six" necessarily means that Desmond, Danielle, Juliette, Alex or any of the Others don't get off.

ArizonaTeach
03-13-2008, 10:46 PM
Well, I was fooled, but not in the way they wanted you to think. The toys in the toy store at the beginning were all 2007-era toys. So, I'm explaining to my wife, "it's three years in the future from the island." Power Rangers: Operation Overdrive, Ben-10....

Dammit, in a show like this, I kind of expect them to think about these kinds of things, because that's a big screw-up, as far as I'm concerned, when time is such an important issue.

42fish
03-13-2008, 11:28 PM
Well, in the tent at the end Jin says something along the lines of "he'll do anything" to get her and the baby off the island. Along with an "I promise". Seems like a pretty heavy handed bit of foreshadowing considering it immediately cut to Jin's grave site. Of course that could mean he sacrifices his chance to get off the island for them, but that seems less likely.

Except if Jin is secretly alive, presumably the Oceanic Six would know since they're in on the cover-up. However, it's Hurley who suggests that Sun bring the baby to Jin's grave, which hardly seems like something he'd do if he knows Sun's still alive.

Frylock
03-14-2008, 12:08 AM
Bernard: Do you know about Karma, Jin?
My wife: "I fucking Buddhist, what you think?"

-FrL-

John Mace
03-14-2008, 12:49 AM
Another so-so episode. I was fooled by the flash forward/back.

Was the captain's name Galt? John Galt? Galt's Gulch, that no one could see from the outside?

I think Jin counts as one of the Oceanic 6 since he died off Island.

Kythereia
03-14-2008, 01:03 AM
Except if Jin is secretly alive, presumably the Oceanic Six would know since they're in on the cover-up. However, it's Hurley who suggests that Sun bring the baby to Jin's grave, which hardly seems like something he'd do if he knows Sun's still alive.

Sun could be crying (and Hurley could be looking stoically uncomfortable) because he's stuck on the Island for whatever reason and they miss him. Not necessarily because he's dead.

Oh my God, it's 2 a.m., why am I still awake?

Indistinguishable
03-14-2008, 01:20 AM
Wow, I completely misinterpreted the flashback interplaying with the flashforward. I thought "What? Jin faked his death and remarried? How and why?!"

(I console myself with the fact that I did predict from the start that they were trying to fool us, that Jin was going to a different maternity ward and getting a phone call from someone else, for whatever reason. I just completely blew up at understanding the actual details of it, in the end).

bouv
03-14-2008, 02:11 AM
I think Jin counts as one of the Oceanic 6 since he died off Island.

He didn't, though. I went back and looked, and his grave said he died Sep 22, 2004. That means he "died" in the crash (since it seems the Oceanic 6 aren't only the only ones rescued, but they're all sticking to the lie that they're also the only ones to survive the crash, or at least survive for more than a few days after.)

ETA: My friend has a theory that Aaron doesn't count as one of the Oceanic 6, but whoever was in the coffin at the end of last season does. Forgot about him/her, didn't you? Of course, with the way Lost goes, the producers/writers will forget about it too. *sigh.*

(I still think it's Michael in the coffin, and seeing him in the boat adds plausibility to that theory.)

The Tof
03-14-2008, 02:33 AM
The captain knows who Sayid and Desmond are and knows that Desmond knows Widmore.

He shows them the black box and says it was recovered from the Sunda (?) trench from the wreckage of flight 815. He then says that obviously the wreckage is a fake since Sayid is standing in front of him. He points out that whoever faked the crash also somehow found 324 bodies to put in the fake crash (not to mention the obvious cost). He ends by saying that, given what Widmore has already done, that it is obvious why they have to get Ben.


I know somebody else pointed it out, but this is inaccurate...

Captain said that Widmore went through great expense to get the box. Can you imagine the cost it took to fake ane ntire plane crash? Can you imagine why you would do such a thing? More disturbing, can you imagine where you would get all those dead bodies? This is just one reason why we are after Benjamin Linus.

This is somewhat of a parphrase- but I think is much more accurate. As it implies that Benjamin is the one who faked the plane crash, and his intentions are not to ever allow any of the Losties off the island.

It struck me at this point that this is why the freighter people are so reluctant to discuss rescuing the survivors. If the survivors suddenly turn up then it is obvious that the crash was faked and, given the effort that Widmore put into faking it, it is also obvious that he won't want his deception to be revealed. Given how ruthless they have portrayed Widmore as being, I'm surprised that even the 6 made it off.

At this point, I don't know that we can say Widmore even knew the plane was faked until the freighter got to the island. Showing the black box, however was clearly the best way to convince Sayid and Desmond that Ben is the bad guy here and not them (Not that it needed much convincing). I think the freighter people are reluctant, because the Losties were not their primary objective, and at this point it's unsure if they're going to be rescued.

SenorBeef
03-14-2008, 02:50 AM
I'm pretty irritated at this episode. The audience manipulation is more blatant than usual. Jin's flashback had no purpose on its own, it was only there to be a gimmick so that they could have the OMG FOOLED YOU!!!!111 Lost ending. At least most of their audience manipulation is vague enough that you can justify it relating to the story, but in this case it added nothing to the story at all.

I did like the "I suppose you aren't going to tell us who gave those orders..." "Oh yeah, sure, why not? Charles Widmore" part. Sayid should've done a double take.

Omniscient
03-14-2008, 03:39 AM
I did like the "I suppose you aren't going to tell us who gave those orders..." "Oh yeah, sure, why not? Charles Widmore" part. Sayid should've done a double take.

I loved that. I automatically liked the Captain just because he's straightforward and answered a direct question with a direct answer. We might actually get somewhere with this guy.

cmyk
03-14-2008, 03:55 AM
One of the main reasons why I suspect Jin is still alive, but on the island, is that when Hurley arrived, she told him that she did cry out for Jin in the hospital. The doctors, luckily didn't question why she'd be calling out for her "dead" husband, cuz she was in distress... however, she was really calling for him because she knew he was still out there... somewhere.

So, of course, everyone who "died" in the crash got an empty grave because of the lie that there were only 8 survivors, but only six who made it back. It's a good proxy for her to visit, knowing she has no way to communicate with him directly. Tricksy writers indeed!

Also, they must be keeping with the faked crash story for some reason?!

running piglet cheese
03-14-2008, 05:55 AM
I want to know why the captain has the black box. If Whidmore bought it, shouldn't he be having it analyzed by now?

Also, why so many negative effects on those close to the island while those on the island seem to be mainly good ones (healing) and have not had these "wig outs"?

Sage Rat
03-14-2008, 06:17 AM
Also, why so many negative effects on those close to the island while those on the island seem to be mainly good ones (healing) and have not had these "wig outs"?
There seems to be some sort of "wall" around the island. The wall distorts time, it will mess things up if you don't travel the same path as you came in, and who knows what else. Given that the Others had their second island they lived on, it's a decent bet that the wall is a pretty good distance out to sea around them. And most likely, the ship is just on the outside edge and the effects are getting to them.

anamnesis
03-14-2008, 06:55 AM
I automatically liked the Captain just because he's straightforward and answered a direct question with a direct answer. We might actually get somewhere with this guy.True enough, but I think that notion is invalidated by the note (presumably from Michael/Mr. Jackson) ... the Captain may be straightforward and direct, but that doesn't mean what he's saying is true.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 07:25 AM
Bernard: Do you know about Karma, Jin?
My wife: "I fucking Buddhist, what you think?"


Do we actually know that?

-Joe

Ice Cream Man
03-14-2008, 07:26 AM
True enough, but I think that notion is invalidated by the note (presumably from Michael/Mr. Jackson) ... the Captain may be straightforward and direct, but that doesn't mean what he's saying is true.
I agree. If there's anything we know about this show, it's that everyone lies.

Also, something happens between now and the flashforwards that has Sayid (arguably the most rational person on the show) working for Ben.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 07:38 AM
I want to know why the captain has the black box. If Whidmore bought it, shouldn't he be having it analyzed by now?

Also, why so many negative effects on those close to the island while those on the island seem to be mainly good ones (healing) and have not had these "wig outs"?

To your first question, I assume it already has been analyzed - since, you know, the freighter is actually AT the island.

Your second question has more possibilities. Let's see...

Unstuck-in-time guy whose brain bled out his nose may have been considered to have been exposed to a lot of EM radiation because he was the radio and communications guy. Desmond, of course, was in the middle of the hatch-plosion.

As for Regina...well, maybe we'll find out she was their electromagnet calibration officer or something.

-Joe

ivylass
03-14-2008, 07:51 AM
Thank Og for you guys. I came in here to discuss why Jin faked his death...I never thought Sun was Flash Forward and Jin was Flash Back. :smack:

So, does Widmore want $3.2 million from Ben, since that's what he spent to fake the plane crash?

And where's Walt?

Dante
03-14-2008, 07:59 AM
So, does Widmore want $3.2 million from Ben, since that's what he spent to fake the plane crash?Widmore didn't fake the plane crash. The implication is that Ben did.

Trion
03-14-2008, 08:09 AM
Also, we don't know that Widmore wants 3.2 million from Ben. Just that Miles does.

Hell, I want 3.2 million form Ben. (As long as he's handing out cash and all.)

Gfactor
03-14-2008, 08:14 AM
Also, we don't know that Widmore wants 3.2 million from Ben. Just that Miles does.



Right. Miles appears to work for Widmore and has offered to lie to him in exchange for 3.2 M. How he'd be able to hide the transfer from Widmore is . . . complicated.

AndyPolley
03-14-2008, 08:22 AM
Jin's flashback had no purpose on its own, it was only there to be a gimmick so that they could have the OMG FOOLED YOU!!!!111 Lost ending.
I think Jin's flashback was meant to remind us of where he came from, up to the 'present' on the Island--where he is. He was impatient, driven and uncaring, dedicated to his job before his wife. On the island he has become loving and forgiving, a better man & husband. It also adds weight to the reveal that he dies in the near future. To say it had no purpose on it's own is a little harsh. His flashback was classic Lost, using a moment in the character's past to help understand his present.

In my opinion, this was an absolutley great use of the flashback/forward device in this episode. The ending packed a real emotional punch.

NajaNivea
03-14-2008, 08:25 AM
Wow, I completely misinterpreted the flashback interplaying with the flashforward. I thought "What? Jin faked his death and remarried? How and why?!"
You and me both, buddy :smack:. I actually had this whole theory that it was two separate futures on two different timelines. Until he arrived at the hospital, I thought there was some sinister plot to keep Jin from arriving in time, and that Dharma-ites or someone was going to steal her bay-bee.
I'm not sure I understand the hate-on for this episode, I was riveted.

running piglet cheese
03-14-2008, 08:34 AM
To your first question, I assume it already has been analyzed - since, you know, the freighter is actually AT the island.



-Joe
Why would the black box from the fake plane crash give accurate info concerning the actual plane crash, as in the location of the island?
And, if the black box had been analyzed, why bring it along on the boat?

It just seems to me that the fake crash could be accomplished by fake video and a few recovered artifacts. Why would you actually need a real airplane and 324 dead people?

flex727
03-14-2008, 08:36 AM
True enough, but I think that notion is invalidated by the note (presumably from Michael/Mr. Jackson) ... the Captain may be straightforward and direct, but that doesn't mean what he's saying is true.
I don't agree. The note likely came from Ben's "man on the boat" (Michael) and it's more likely that the note is a lie.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 08:42 AM
Also, we don't know that Widmore wants 3.2 million from Ben. Just that Miles does.

Hell, I want 3.2 million form Ben. (As long as he's handing out cash and all.)

Yeah, the 3.2 million is what Miles thinks he needs to get from Ben to make it worth his while to cross Widmore and then either strand or kill the Freighter People.

There may be some hidden depth to 3.2 million, but it will involve Ben and/or Miles, not Widmore.

-Joe

running piglet cheese
03-14-2008, 08:47 AM
RE: Michael The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Is Michael sabotaging the boat and crew and also helping Sayid and Desmond? Why would Ben want to help Losties, or for that matter lie to them? I get the motivation for messing with the crew but no clue why he would help or hurt Losties.

I think it's so cool that Hurly came to see Sun. Why didn't any of the others acknowledge her giving birth? How can you possibly go thru such a life changing experience with other people and then cross them out of your life as if they never existed? Hurly is also the one who tried to talk Jack into going back to the island, presumably to rescue the ones left behind. He doesn't seem so crazy to me.

John Mace
03-14-2008, 08:52 AM
True enough, but I think that notion is invalidated by the note (presumably from Michael/Mr. Jackson) ... the Captain may be straightforward and direct, but that doesn't mean what he's saying is true.
Would that be Michael Jackson?

Trion
03-14-2008, 08:53 AM
I think it's so cool that Hurly came to see Sun. Why didn't any of the others acknowledge her giving birth? How can you possibly go thru such a life changing experience with other people and then cross them out of your life as if they never existed? Hurly is also the one who tried to talk Jack into going back to the island, presumably to rescue the ones left behind. He doesn't seem so crazy to me.

I think we were just told that no one else is coming. Presumably Kate is preparing for trial and can't leave the state, so that takes care of her and Aaron. Sayid is probably undercover doing some killings. Dunno what Jack's problem is.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 08:56 AM
Why would the black box from the fake plane crash give accurate info concerning the actual plane crash, as in the location of the island?
And, if the black box had been analyzed, why bring it along on the boat?


First, I may have been a bit confused - was this box from the real crash or the fake one? If it was from the real one they must have picked it up recently (since getting to the vicinity of the island), and that answers that. But then they already knew where the crash was, which means they had to have gotten the island's location from Penny's guys or the Black Rock Book.

If it's from the fake, I assume that means there was a recovery mission, and the bodies were raised to the surface along with the recorder.

As for bringing it on the boat? If it's real, it shows they've been to the island close enough to recover the recorder from the tail section that landed in the water. If it's the fake, it shows they went deep, deep under the water to grab it.


It just seems to me that the fake crash could be accomplished by fake video and a few recovered artifacts. Why would you actually need a real airplane and 324 dead people?

I presume there will be a reason - maybe even one that makes sense.

However, there's some facts that, when put together seem to be getting overlooked:

1. Oceanic 815 crashes with all 324 people lost
2. Oceanic 815 is found with 324 corpses aboard - everyone is very specific on this point, so I take it to mean that, yes, they either recovered the wreckage or had their robotic submarine count bodies
3. Six survivors, who had already literally been counted dead in their seats, show up alive and kicking.
4. The Oceanic Six are famous worldwide - as evidenced by Sayid being known in Germany, Sun in Korea, and Jack/Kate/Hugo in the USA.

All of this adds up to "huge ass conspiracy that gets blown wide open" in my mind. I wonder if they'll do anything with this?

-Joe

The Chao Goes Mu
03-14-2008, 09:00 AM
Mu guess about the black box is that if Widmore analyzes it, he will see that it is not in fact from Flight 815. It's a bogus box from a bogus crash, allegedly staged by Ben.

My first instinct about the note to Sayid and Desmond, presumably from Michael, was that it was a lie. Michael will do anything to protect HIS SON, WAAAAAAALT! And if that means double crossing his fellow Losties once again, then he'll do it. I would never have put any credence into the freighter people actually being good guys except for Ben's whole "You're mine" tantrum he had while showing Juliet Goodwin's bloated corpse.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 09:08 AM
Mu guess about the black box is that if Widmore analyzes it, he will see that it is not in fact from Flight 815. It's a bogus box from a bogus crash, allegedly staged by Ben.

My first instinct about the note to Sayid and Desmond, presumably from Michael, was that it was a lie. Michael will do anything to protect HIS SON, WAAAAAAALT! And if that means double crossing his fellow Losties once again, then he'll do it. I would never have put any credence into the freighter people actually being good guys except for Ben's whole "You're mine" tantrum he had while showing Juliet Goodwin's bloated corpse.

Nobody on the show is particularly good, and I don't see why the Freighter Folk would be any different. However, the fact that rescuing the Losties is kind of a "if we find time and it's convenient" sort of goal for them is a long way off from Ben's "they will kill every living person on this island!" bit.

-Joe

running piglet cheese
03-14-2008, 09:12 AM
OK. Black box, I seem to remember that the captain said Widmore paid mega bucks to get it. The implication was that it was from the recovered deep-sea plane. But maybe that was just my assumption. Actually it makes much more sense than it being the black box from the island crash. Nothing has been mentioned about anyone from Ben's camp coming across it and surely anyone from outside showing up to find it would have been noticed.

Why would Widmore even want the black box? I'm so confused. However, I must enjoy it as I keep right on watching.

tanstaafl
03-14-2008, 09:20 AM
No, no, no.

The Captain was telling them that the wreckage was found and that all 324 bodies were on board. He says that Widmore went through great expense to acquire the black box. But he says that they should consider the influence and cost it would take to fake that crash and that it explains why they want Ben so bad. Was clear to me that this meant Ben and his people were responsible for faking the wreckage.
Interesting. I had somehow interpreted the exchange as being that Widmore had staged the crash and so they had no choice but to go along with him or else they would wind up like the other 324 bodies.

I should have thought though, if Widmore had staged the crash, he wouldn't have had to go through a lot of cost and effort to get the black box since he would have had it in the first place.

So I guess it boils down to who we believe more; Ben or Widmore.

The Chao Goes Mu
03-14-2008, 09:31 AM
So I guess it boils down to who we believe more; Ben or Widmore.

It really is hard to discern which is the evil (or more evil) one. For all we know, the man that Widmore was pummeling in the tape Ben showed jack could've been someone who desperately deserved a Daddy Widmore smackdown.

stpauler
03-14-2008, 09:33 AM
Why would Widmore even want the black box? I'm so confused. However, I must enjoy it as I keep right on watching.

OK, here's my theory on the black box. Sayid and Desmond go to the deck of the ship and see that the helicopter is gone on an "errand". I am assuming that the errand was picking up the black box from the airplane. The black box would possibly contain directions on how to get to the plane as well as proof of survivors (to show that the crash of the plane in the ocean was a fake).

As for what's going to happen, the spoiler I read (and this is a HUGE one):
Season 4 is supposed to be how they get off of the island. Season 5 is all about trying to get back to the island. Season 6 is what happens when they return.

Not sure if this is spoiler, but part of it hasn't exactly been revealed yet and the other part is theory:

Let's not forget that Widmore was a financier of Dharma and his revenge on Ben killing all of his people would be motivation enough to do everything in his power to get the island back and that's why the necessity of secrecy for the freighter folk. I'd assume.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 09:33 AM
It really is hard to discern which is the evil (or more evil) one. For all we know, the man that Widmore was pummeling in the tape Ben showed jack could've been someone who desperately deserved a Daddy Widmore smackdown.

Might have been one of Wilhelmina's operatives! :eek:

-Joe

Gfactor
03-14-2008, 09:34 AM
The dialogue about the black box was ambiguous at the beginning. He started talking about how Widmore had gone to the trouble to get the black box, and then explained how the plane and bodies were found, all of which suggests that Widmore was involved. I think Widmore probably did fund the effort that resulted in finding the plane and fake bodies.

Then he goes off about how much it would have taken to stage a wreck, and to get 324 bodies, and then he says that's why they want Ben.

This raises a few questions:

1. Is it the fake black box (in which case it doesn't make sense why they have it on the freighter) or the real one (I'd think that one would be harder to find)? Probably the fake one.

2. Do they want Ben so that they can exploit him somehow (he's got enough power to produce 324 bodies), because of a grudge (maybe he ripped Widmore off, or somehow filed a fake insurance claim), or because he's in the way?

3. Why does Widmore give a crap about flight 815 in the first place?

UncleRojelio
03-14-2008, 09:35 AM
I'm thinking that Ben staged the crash and that Pappy Widmore found it and the black box. The question I have is, why would Ben bother staging the crash at all? Oceanic 815 was a thousand miles off course and could have simply disappeared without a trace. Unless, he wanted the island to be found -- by the one person on earth with the resources and the drive to do so. Ben must want some sort of confrontation.

tanstaafl
03-14-2008, 10:08 AM
That's the thing that confuses me. As they said, whoever faked the crash site has an enormous amount of resources available. Does Ben have those resources off the Island? We know he has some, the front company that recruited Juliet for example and Miles expects to get 3.2 million out of him somehow.

But I have never had the idea that Ben had enough off Island resources to do something like fake the 815 crash.

Could there be a third party involved that hasn't made a move directly yet? DHARMA itself, maybe? (Someone was making those food drops to the Swan station after all.)

I dunno. I think we're still missing something here.

John Mace
03-14-2008, 10:19 AM
I dunno. I think we're still missing something here.
Yes. Each season they expand the universe of people involved, so I suspect there is at least one, maybe two more levels that we know little or nothing about right now. Don't assume that we have all the players lined up. There could be involvement by "Jacob" or some folks we have not even met yet.

Kythereia
03-14-2008, 10:22 AM
Could there be a third party involved that hasn't made a move directly yet? DHARMA itself, maybe? (Someone was making those food drops to the Swan station after all.)


Hijack: are those still going to made now that the Swan has blown up? I haven't seen one since "Dave".


My theory: Ben staged the crash, to get everyone interested in Oceanic 815 to get off his tail.

Daddy Widmore finances the Hanso Foundation and thinks the Dharma project ended in the late 1980s when everybody got purged / packed up or left. Only he finds out about the continued existence of the island through Penny's guys--that somebody's there and it's clearly not the Dharma people--and is sending along a freighter to bust the Others and get Ben Linus, enemy number one. Saving Desmond and the survivors is incidental--as long as they get Ben.

UncleRojelio
03-14-2008, 10:36 AM
My theory: Ben staged the crash, to get everyone interested in Oceanic 815 to get off his tail.
But, the problem is, the staged crash brought Widmore straight to the island. Are we supposed to think now that Ben is stupid, or that he has a plan?

Gfactor
03-14-2008, 10:44 AM
Hijack: are those still going to made now that the Swan has blown up? I haven't seen one since "Dave".

In the podcast before the last one, the producers pretty much said there will be more drops.

middleman
03-14-2008, 10:59 AM
A few random thoughts:

* Even in an episode where Sawyer doesn't appear, he claims the funniest moment. Sawyer teaching Jin English. I was expecting Jin to give Jack a funny nickname.

* Omniscient, my wife and I came to the exact opposite conclusion regarding who will ultimately be the good guy and who will be the bad guy. We think Ben will ultimately be a sleaze ball who happens to be on the right side of good and evil (likely for the wrong reasons). I can see Ben explaining smugly to Jack, "I told you I was one of the good guys!" And thinking back to last week's episode, doesn't his behavior surrounding sending Goodwin off to the Tailies mirror King David sending a friend to the front line so he could marry the guy's wife?

* Michael's alias was Kevin Johnson! See? See? They give the white people literary names. Michael the Janitor gets the name of an NBA Point guard. The whole system is racist! ;)

* The Freighter scenes are like something out of Stephen King. Soon that damn thing will be a ghost ship.

* I figure there are at least a good handful of people who get off the island but are not accounted for in the Oceanic Six. Ben. Maybe Desmond. Surely Mikhail!
I am confused about the sixth. I thought the previews said we would know the identity of all six by last night, right? Aaron has to count, I guess.

* The Lost casting director consistently nails his or her choices. Everyone cast on this show since the pilot has been amazing. The Captain is the latest triumph.

* Why the hate on Michael? He loves his kid. I'd beat everyone of you to death with a broken whiskey bottle to get my kid the last Nintendo Wii for his Christmas present. Do you what I would do to you to keep him alive and safe? You don't want to know, because....it's complicated! I think Michael's motivations are equally complicated. He wants to help, but he clearly doesn't hate the Losties. I think he probably likes them very much. They just sit on the wrong side of his priorities.

* I think the black box is obviously from the faked crash. All of the major pieces of the plane seemed to end up on the island, right? Nose in the jungle. Mid section on the beach. Tail on the other side.

C3
03-14-2008, 11:09 AM
I know it probably doesn't mean much, but I'm a bit intrigued by the scene with Hurley and Sun. It seems pretty obvious that that's the first time that Sun is taking the baby to Jin's grave, I guess because she had a "difficult" birth (although, I'm not really sure what was difficult physically about it - she didn't end up with the c-section and it seemed to go pretty seamlessly). Why was Hurley there to accompany her? Why did he seem to expect other people to be there, too (and why was he glad they weren't)?

As an aside, my husband was incredulous: "They thought they were going to have to do a c-section and *poof* all of a sudden, everything is fine and the baby just pops out?" I had to remind him that that's exactly what happened with our youngest, just two short years ago. How they forget.

SenorBeef
03-14-2008, 11:11 AM
I think it's so cool that Hurly came to see Sun. Why didn't any of the others acknowledge her giving birth? How can you possibly go thru such a life changing experience with other people and then cross them out of your life as if they never existed? Hurly is also the one who tried to talk Jack into going back to the island, presumably to rescue the ones left behind. He doesn't seem so crazy to me.


IIRC, Hurley asked if any others were coming, and when Sun said "no", he said "good". That was odd. I expected those two to start making out as the surprise ending.

He did say "good", right? That's meaningful - clearly there's at least one person Hurley hopes keeps away from Sun.



3. Why does Widmore give a crap about flight 815 in the first place?

Buying the black rock ship's log indicates that he knows something about the island - maybe he had a hunch that 815 crashed there, and he acquired the black box of the fake crash to confirm that it was indeed a fake.

John Mace
03-14-2008, 11:12 AM
I see now that I did hear the ship's captain's name right, and Lostpedia picked up on the possible Atlas Shrugged reference, too. Captain Galt.

I have to admit feeling a little foolish in not catching that Jin's off-island experience was not the same time as Sun's. The strange obsession with getting a panda when he would've known his wife was actually in labor just seemed ridiculous.

tanstaafl
03-14-2008, 11:14 AM
...And thinking back to last week's episode, doesn't his behavior surrounding sending Goodwin off to the Tailies mirror King David sending a friend to the front line so he could marry the guy's wife?
Yes. Shamelessly copied from The Lost Report (linked in OP)
Goodwin was murdered by Ben but not directly. He deliberately put Goodwin in a dangerous place and did not recall him so he would get killed. There is a very similar story like this in the bible. It goes like this. Kind David of Israel had an affair with a married woman Bathsheeba while her husband, Uriah, was away at war. King David ordered that Uriah be put on the front lines and then ordered the rest of the men to withdraw so that Uriah would be killed. The plan worked.

tanstaafl
03-14-2008, 11:17 AM
I see now that I did hear the ship's captain's name right, and Lostpedia picked up on the possible Atlas Shrugged reference, too. Captain Galt.
There's a better reference. Atlas Shrugged may be a reach because the character's name is apparently spelled "Gault", not "Galt". However, someone may have found a better match. This is from Doc Jensen's column in EW Online...
Late addition: I just woke up from a nap after submitting this recap to my editor and received an e-mail from reader Tom, who points out that Captain Gault is also the name of a maritime adventure hero created by writer William Hope Hodgson. According to Wikipedia, Captain Gault is a ''captain for hire'' who is ''highly placed in a secret society....In general, he reveals himself to have surprising reservoirs of specialized knowledge. Where he got all this knowledge is generally not revealed; we get only these tantalizing hints at the character's past.'' Says Tom, ''This last sentence seems to sum up all of Lost, doesn't it?'' Nice catch, dude! And this gives me a chance to make a connection I've always wanted to make: Hodgson also wrote stories about a spectral investigator named Carnacki (think: Miles Straum?), who lived at 472 Cheyne Walk, in London — just down the street from where Penelope Widmore lives!

ivylass
03-14-2008, 11:20 AM
I have a question.

After Juliet spills the beans about Sun's affair, Sun is trying to talk to Jin, saying, "It was a long time ago."

Excuse me, missy, but it couldn't have been that long if you thought Bald Headed Dude (forgot his name, sorry) could have been the father of your baby and you're only two months preggers.

That said, any theory on why pregnant women die? I think the altered time of the island messes up the baby...the baby's on real time, the mother's on Island time, or vice versa. Claire got pregnant before the plane crash, so she and the baby never got out of sync.

Just a WAG. Take it for what it's worth.

John Mace
03-14-2008, 11:32 AM
There's a better reference. Atlas Shrugged may be a reach because the character's name is apparently spelled "Gault", not "Galt". However, someone may have found a better match. This is from Doc Jensen's column in EW Online...
Ah, I missed the different spelling. The "captain for hire" connection is noted in Lostpedia, too. Not sure why they even noted the Atlas Shrugged reference given the "u" in the name. Have there been any obvious alternative spellings before? I can't think of any...

John Mace
03-14-2008, 11:35 AM
That said, any theory on why pregnant women die? I think the altered time of the island messes up the baby...the baby's on real time, the mother's on Island time, or vice versa. Claire got pregnant before the plane crash, so she and the baby never got out of sync.

Just a WAG. Take it for what it's worth.
Juliet said that sometime in the 2nd trimester the white cell count of the fetus plummets. That's all we know about the physiology of the condition. I don't see how that would be tied to different times, though.

Also, Claire was 8 months pregnant when she arrived on the Island. The kid could've been born at that point without much problem.

Frylock
03-14-2008, 11:47 AM
I have a question.

After Juliet spills the beans about Sun's affair, Sun is trying to talk to Jin, saying, "It was a long time ago."

You sure she said that? I was actually watching for that line, fearing the writers would put it in her mouth, and was pleased it never came. Did I miss it?

-FrL-

Hogwash
03-14-2008, 11:50 AM
You sure she said that? I was actually watching for that line, fearing the writers would put it in her mouth, and was pleased it never came. Did I miss it?
She definitely says it. As Jin is getting the fishing rods together, Sun says:

- Jin...
- Talk to me. Let me explain.
- It was a long time ago.

UncleRojelio
03-14-2008, 11:51 AM
Did I miss it?
You missed it. She said it. I said, "WTF"?

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 12:39 PM
Daddy Widmore finances the Hanso Foundation and thinks the Dharma project ended in the late 1980s when everybody got purged / packed up or left. Only he finds out about the continued existence of the island through Penny's guys--that somebody's there and it's clearly not the Dharma people--and is sending along a freighter to bust the Others and get Ben Linus, enemy number one. Saving Desmond and the survivors is incidental--as long as they get Ben.

Except why send the pack of loonies he did? They might need Daniel to get to and from the island safely, but apart from that it seems they'd send a squad of mercenaries to grab Ben - not a pilot, a navigator (Daniel), and two whackos.


But, the problem is, the staged crash brought Widmore straight to the island. Are we supposed to think now that Ben is stupid, or that he has a plan?

Apart from that, why even stage a wreck? A plane disappears - these things happen. The plane went down in the middle of the ocean after a communications failure...I think whomever is responsible would have been perfectly safe just letting the world continue to think that.

Gotta be something else.

-Joe

tanstaafl
03-14-2008, 12:41 PM
Don't forget that the plane was 1000 miles off course. They even said in the pilot episode that any rescuers would be looking for them in the wrong place.

The Island had stayed hidden for 16 years even with a distress call being broadcast constantly. (Yeah, I know, it was jammed.) Would anyone looking for 815 even have come anywhere near it?

SmellMyWort
03-14-2008, 01:09 PM
One of the main reasons why I suspect Jin is still alive, but on the island, is that when Hurley arrived, she told him that she did cry out for Jin in the hospital. The doctors, luckily didn't question why she'd be calling out for her "dead" husband, cuz she was in distress... however, she was really calling for him because she knew he was still out there... somewhere.

So, of course, everyone who "died" in the crash got an empty grave because of the lie that there were only 8 survivors, but only six who made it back. It's a good proxy for her to visit, knowing she has no way to communicate with him directly. Tricksy writers indeed!

Also, they must be keeping with the faked crash story for some reason?!

It seemed to me that she was on some pretty heavy drugs to help with the labor pains and she said the doctors told her that she was crying out, which indicates that she must have been pretty out of it not to remember. I wouldn't be surprised if someone in that situation called for a deceased loved one whom they wished was there. I'm not totally convinced either way, but at the grave Sun was really talking like he was dead and not just absent.

John Mace
03-14-2008, 01:12 PM
You missed it. She said it. I said, "WTF"?
Me, too. But then I thought it could be interpreted as: so much has happened since then that it might as well have been a decade ago. Both of them are different people now.

Something else just occurred to me. When Harper said Juliet looks "just like her", could she have been referring to the little girl we saw befriend Ben when he was a kid on the Island? Did she have blond hair? I always figured that we were to assume she perished in the purge with the rest of the Dharma folk.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 01:13 PM
The Island had stayed hidden for 16 years even with a distress call being broadcast constantly. (Yeah, I know, it was jammed.) Would anyone looking for 815 even have come anywhere near it?

My point exactly. From the cast of villains we know so far, there's no reason to go through the expense and hassle of planting a fake crashed plane. Either there's someone else doing it or there's something huge going on that we haven't even seen a hint of yet.

-Joe

tanstaafl
03-14-2008, 01:22 PM
Something else just occurred to me. When Harper said Juliet looks "just like her", could she have been referring to the little girl we saw befriend Ben when he was a kid on the Island? Did she have blond hair? I always figured that we were to assume she perished in the purge with the rest of the Dharma folk.
Who else would it have been? That was who I assumed she was referring to. And I suspect that she didn't die in the purge; my guess is that she got pregnant and died, which is why Ben is so obsessed with the issue.

John Mace
03-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Who else would it have been? That was who I assumed she was referring to.
I thought people were speculating that Harper was referring to Ben's mother. He wouldn't have known her, but he would've seen pictures probably.

And I suspect that she didn't die in the purge; my guess is that she got pregnant and died, which is why Ben is so obsessed with the issue.
Good point. We certainly know that many women were dying due to pregnancy.

msmith537
03-14-2008, 01:38 PM
Also, anyone have any idea why Regina killed herself? She was obviously upset about something when Frank talked to her. Was she upset over Minkowski's death?


I think they made it clear that the crew was going stir-crazy (IOW slowly going insane). Regina wraping herself in a chain jacket and jumping overboard was simply driving that point home.

Which IMHO is a good thing since Zoe Bell is a terrible actress and should stick to riding on the hood of musclecars in B-movie 'sploitation revival films.




And who did the bloodstain on the wall of the cabin that Eckley was giving to Sayid and Desmond come from. What happened there?

Clearly someone blew their own brains out.

The Chao Goes Mu
03-14-2008, 01:43 PM
Clearly someone blew their own brains out.

Did anyone else get the impression that when Eckle said that the blood was supposed to have been cleaned up that maybe Des and Sayid were meant to see that blood? Maybe as a warning? Or else Michael/Kevin deliberately didn't clean it up so he could show his face to Des and Sayid.

Omniscient
03-14-2008, 02:17 PM
Yes. Each season they expand the universe of people involved, so I suspect there is at least one, maybe two more levels that we know little or nothing about right now. Don't assume that we have all the players lined up. There could be involvement by "Jacob" or some folks we have not even met yet.

Let's not forget that we already have a potential 3rd (or 4th) powerful entity at work. Ben's people. Widmore's people (maybe DHARMA, maybe not), and the creepy Black Guy who talked to Hurley and sent the 4 "rescuers".

Sam Stone
03-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Here's my take on what's going on:

Flight 815 crashes on the island. Ben is now worried that there will be a huge search effort underway which will eventually uncover the secret of the island. So, he fakes the crash to end the search and make everyone go away.

Desmond blows up the hatch, which exposes the island. Whidmore discovers this, and sends a freighter there to see what's up. They discover the wreckage of 815, and recover the black box. This is the evidence they need to show that the other crash was faked, and to bring down Ben and his organization.

Remember, they are at cross purposes - Dharma and Whidmore want to exploit the island - open it up for health tourism, use it to make wonderful devices, whatever. Ben wants the island to himself. He wants it hidden.

So now Whidmore has the black box, which he can take back to civilization and show everyone that the crash was staged, and put the kibosh on Ben's operation. But the freighter is stuck because Ben's man sabotaged it. So Ben temporarily has the upper hand.

Now, my guess for what's coming is that Michael will sabotage the black box and erase it, getting rid of Whidmore's proof. So how to prove the crash was faked? Hey, take back the 815 survivors. That'll blow the conspiracy wide open.

Now, here's another problem - how does Sayid wind up working for Ben? So far, Ben's looking pretty evil, and the Freighter guys pretty good. So here's a wild guess - it'll turn out that Ben iis the good guy after all - not personally decent (he's not), but his cause will be right. Why? Because the island is too dangerous. If it becomes public, it'll wreak havoc on the world. Time travel, magnetic anomolies, you name it. So Sayid will come to realize that it's critical that the existence of the island remain secret, so he joins forces with Ben (who has his own reasons for keeping it secret), and starts whacking all of Whidmore's people.

There are some holes in this - wouldn't the island already be common knowledge, because the Oceanic six are celebrities? I don't know. Maybe there's a big coverup involving the six of them and they have a different story to tell. Maybe a condition of their rescue with is that they could never mention being on an island, and the rest of the losties are essentially hostages to keep them from talking. Maybe Whidmore's decided to keep it to himself, and he's trying to get rid of Ben and keep the secret so he can exploit it.

And if the other losties are hostages, then the 'Oceanic Six' would have had an incentive to tell the authorities that they were the only ones left (Whidmore would kill them if they revealed it). That opens the door to the possibility that Jin is still alive - Sun had to get off the island for the safety of the baby, but Jin might have been kept behind as a hostage to keep her from talking.

That might also explain why Hurley said "Good" when Sun said that no one else was coming. Maybe there are people watching them, and having all the losties get together like that would draw too much attention.

Gfactor
03-14-2008, 02:25 PM
Did anyone else get the impression that when Eckle said that the blood was supposed to have been cleaned up that maybe Des and Sayid were meant to see that blood? Maybe as a warning? Or else Michael/Kevin deliberately didn't clean it up so he could show his face to Des and Sayid.

I got the impression that they told Kevin Johnson to clean it up, but he was interrupted by voices he may have recognized. So he scampered down the hall and claimed he had to go up when called on it.

UncleRojelio
03-14-2008, 02:28 PM
Desmond blows up the hatch, which exposes the island. Whidmore discovers this, and sends a freighter there to see what's up. They discover the wreckage of 815, and recover the black box. This is the evidence they need to show that the other crash was faked, and to bring down Ben and his organization.
But the black box on the freighter is the one from the faked wreckage, not the real one.

msmith537
03-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Did anyone else get the impression that when Eckle said that the blood was supposed to have been cleaned up that maybe Des and Sayid were meant to see that blood? Maybe as a warning? Or else Michael/Kevin deliberately didn't clean it up so he could show his face to Des and Sayid.


I just assumed that no one gave enough of a shit to clean it up. Kind of goes along with the crew become depressed and despondent from having spent so much time in the doldrums around the island.

Hampshire
03-14-2008, 02:37 PM
My point exactly. From the cast of villains we know so far, there's no reason to go through the expense and hassle of planting a fake crashed plane. Either there's someone else doing it or there's something huge going on that we haven't even seen a hint of yet.

-Joe

I think there's a good reason.
Ben has an island he doesn't want anyone to know about. A plane crashes on it. He knows a massive search effort will be underway to find the plane. Since the plane is on his island this search could go on indefinately. When will the search stop? When they find the plane (and his island :eek: ) orrrr when they find the plane (faked on the ocean floor :cool: ).

Gfactor
03-14-2008, 02:40 PM
I like the beginning of Sayid bracing Kevin Johnson in the previews. I wonder what will happen to interrupt or distract that interrogation.

Hampshire
03-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Preview said somebody will die next week.
My money is on Michael aka/Kevin Johnson.

Did Sun have her baby in the U.S. or Korea? I kind of assumed it was the U.S. since all the doctors and 911 operator spoke english and Hurley was visiting.
Then when I saw Jin entering that toy store I was wondering why he was in Korea.
Sort of tipped me off from the beginning that they weren't in the same place.

BobT
03-14-2008, 02:49 PM
I thought Sun had her baby in Korea as everyone in the delivery was speaking Korean. The cemetery I assume was in Hawai'i. Korean cemeteries from what I've read, don't have as much open space.

well he's back
03-14-2008, 03:02 PM
I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments. This was a particularly intriguing episode.

Question: Where do you all think Walt is? Didn't he sail off with his Pop, the ethically conflicted Michael? How'd he get back to the island, if he did? I'm assuming Ben is still using Walt as a stick to get Michael to do his bidding, tho that trope is getting kinda old.

fiddlesticks
03-14-2008, 03:09 PM
Well, the cemetery shown last night was surely either in Hawaii or Los Angeles in real-life, but I think it was meant to be Korea. The "911" operator answered in Korean, so she was certainly in Korea. Also, didn't she mention to Jin an episode or two back once the "rescuers" arrived that she wanted to raise the baby in Korea?

Sam Stone
03-14-2008, 03:11 PM
But the black box on the freighter is the one from the faked wreckage, not the real one.

Did they say that? Maybe I missed it.

fiddlesticks
03-14-2008, 03:14 PM
Did they say that? Maybe I missed it.

Perhaps someone will have to post a transcript, but my understanding of the conversation was that Mr. Widmore went to considerable expense to acquire the black box from the faked crash in the hopes that something on it would prove it was not the real Oceanic 815.

Merijeek
03-14-2008, 03:25 PM
I think there's a good reason.
Ben has an island he doesn't want anyone to know about. A plane crashes on it. He knows a massive search effort will be underway to find the plane. Since the plane is on his island this search could go on indefinately. When will the search stop? When they find the plane (and his island :eek: ) orrrr when they find the plane (faked on the ocean floor :cool: ).

They were looking in the wrong place by 1000 miles and the island is hard to find and access due to some near-mystical stuff going on.

I don't think that's a good enough reason, myself.

The fake does Ben no good unless it's discovered. Any discovery of the fake will lead to a reawakening of interest in the case - unless they found it RIGHT AWAY the rescue/recovery effort must have been long over with. Any interest in the case gives a chance for holes to appear in any story or coverup.

-Joe

C3
03-14-2008, 03:28 PM
Perhaps someone will have to post a transcript, but my understanding of the conversation was that Mr. Widmore went to considerable expense to acquire the black box from the faked crash in the hopes that something on it would prove it was not the real Oceanic 815.
Yeah, I think it's from the fake crash. Didn't the Losties find the black box from the real crash during Season 1?

UncleRojelio
03-14-2008, 03:31 PM
Perhaps someone will have to post a transcript, but my understanding of the conversation was that Mr. Widmore went to considerable expense to acquire the black box from the faked crash in the hopes that something on it would prove it was not the real Oceanic 815.
Yeah, and besides, the real one is in the tail section and about 50 yds offshore of the island and as far as we know, no salvage vessels have been able to get to the island.

Sam Stone
03-14-2008, 03:39 PM
Can anyone post a transcript to clear up where the black box came from? It makes all kinds of sense for it to be the one on the island, and no sense whatsoever for it to be the one in the faked wreckage. For one thing, why would they bother hauling that all the way out to the island on a freighter? For another, how would Whidmore get his hands on it when governments from multiple countries would be conducting salvage operations? And why would he even bother? If Ben could fake an entire plane crash, I would assume he could doctor up a Flight Data Recorder.

You don't need a big salvage operation to recover a black box from a wreck 50 yards offshore. you need a guy with a SCUBA outfit and maybe an underwater torch. Things that are probably carried onboard anyway for emergency underwater repairs of the ship, and certainly something that would be carried if they intended to hunt for the black box when they got to the island.

Meltdown
03-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Let's not forget that we already have a potential 3rd (or 4th) powerful entity at work. Ben's people. Widmore's people (maybe DHARMA, maybe not), and the creepy Black Guy who talked to Hurley and sent the 4 "rescuers".

I was operating under the assumption that the guy who talked to Hurley and sent the rescuers WAS one of Widmore's people. Otherwise, how would they have synched up with the crew of the freighter?

pinkfreud
03-14-2008, 03:49 PM
Can anyone post a transcript to clear up where the black box came from? "Do either of you know what this?" the freighter guy asks as he puts down a box in front of Sayid and Desmond. "It's a flight data recorder, otherwise known as a black box," Sayid replies. "That's exactly what it is. Now here's the funny thing. This black box comes from Oceanic flight 815. A salvage vessel recovered it from the bottom of the ocean. It took a considerable amount of Mr. Widmore's resources to procure it. It was found with the wreckage of the plane, along with all 324 dead passengers."

(found here (http://technorati.com/posts/WcckSvjm0ISZkNbw4ZWkLgFT5mlpHFACNJrLPEBkC3g%3D))

Of course, there's no real reason to believe that this is true, considering the amount of deception that is the norm for the show.

UncleRojelio
03-14-2008, 03:53 PM
You don't need a big salvage operation to recover a black box from a wreck 50 yards offshore. you need a guy with a SCUBA outfit and maybe an underwater torch. Things that are probably carried onboard anyway for emergency underwater repairs of the ship, and certainly something that would be carried if they intended to hunt for the black box when they got to the island.

Which points to the conclusion that Ben got to the real black box long before any of Widmore's people could have. In fact, the black box on the freighter might well be the original one that Ben had planted in the fake wreckage. In either case, the one on the freighter is the one that Widmore "went to considerable expense" to recover from the faked wreckage. Still, the "why" of it all is the main question.

Omniscient
03-14-2008, 03:53 PM
I was operating under the assumption that the guy who talked to Hurley and sent the rescuers WAS one of Widmore's people. Otherwise, how would they have synched up with the crew of the freighter?
The pilot and the rest of the crew of the freighter seem to have a pretty loose relationship. No one on the freighter seems particularly interested in the well being of the 3 remaining on the island and they are only treating the pilot with slightly less suspicion and caution than Sayid and Desmond.

Seems possible that the Creepy Black Guy and Widmore share similar interests at this point and might be cooperating knowingly or unknowingly but it's not entirely clear that they are in league together.

Meltdown
03-14-2008, 04:01 PM
The pilot and the rest of the crew of the freighter seem to have a pretty loose relationship. No one on the freighter seems particularly interested in the well being of the 3 remaining on the island and they are only treating the pilot with slightly less suspicion and caution than Sayid and Desmond.

Seems possible that the Creepy Black Guy and Widmore share similar interests at this point and might be cooperating knowingly or unknowingly but it's not entirely clear that they are in league together.

But if Widmore was so intent on finding the island, would he be satisfied with a crew of sailors and leave the actual reconnaisance to a third party? I don't buy it. At the very least, Widmore would insist one of his people go along with the rescuers -- and we know all the rescuers were recruited together.

Also, we know Ben believes Widmore is after him (or at least that's what he wants Locke to believe he believes...it's complicated) and we know that it is the "rescuers" who have come for Ben.

In addition, the captain of the freighter also referenced the need to get Ben, same as the rescuers.

IMO, either they're all working for the same organization, or the two organizations are very closely aligned.

Kythereia
03-14-2008, 04:02 PM
But, the problem is, the staged crash brought Widmore straight to the island. Are we supposed to think now that Ben is stupid, or that he has a plan?

Good point. :) Ben's got operatives both on the freighter (Michael) and being beaten up by Widmore's guys (unnamed stooge on the video), so either he does have a plan or he's trying to come up with one really fast.

On preview: what Sam Stone said.

well he's back
03-14-2008, 04:22 PM
Another question has come to mind: Did Desmond ever meet Michael? Could someone refresh my memory here?

Hogwash
03-14-2008, 04:27 PM
Another question has come to mind: Did Desmond ever meet Michael? Could someone refresh my memory here?
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing earlier. I suppose, Michael was at the hatch at least once (when he dispatched the two drunk drivers) so surely he must have met Desmond at some point. That's the trouble with trying to remember all these new people, it pushes the old stuff out. When we were introduced to the freighter crew, I forgot algebra.

Eyebrows 0f Doom
03-14-2008, 04:46 PM
Did Sun have her baby in the U.S. or Korea? I kind of assumed it was the U.S. since all the doctors and 911 operator spoke english and Hurley was visiting.
Then when I saw Jin entering that toy store I was wondering why he was in Korea.
Sort of tipped me off from the beginning that they weren't in the same place.
Huh? Everyone was speaking Korean, not English. It was subtitled.
Remember, Hurley's super rich. He can hop on a flight to Korea whenever he wants, plus he probably got one of those Gold flying passes like Jack & Kate.

BobT
03-14-2008, 04:54 PM
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing earlier. I suppose, Michael was at the hatch at least once (when he dispatched the two drunk drivers) so surely he must have met Desmond at some point. That's the trouble with trying to remember all these new people, it pushes the old stuff out. When we were introduced to the freighter crew, I forgot algebra.

Desmond ran off the island before Michael ever came down to the hatch. By the time Desmond returned, Michael was off selling out Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley to Ben.

At least that's the way I remember it, brother.

Omniscient
03-14-2008, 05:00 PM
But if Widmore was so intent on finding the island, would he be satisfied with a crew of sailors and leave the actual reconnaisance to a third party? I don't buy it. At the very least, Widmore would insist one of his people go along with the rescuers -- and we know all the rescuers were recruited together.

The composition of the "rescue" team is certainly a mystery we've yet to understand. While the Creepy Black Guy gave the roster to Naomi and presumably put them on that boat, it's not entirely clear that they were all his choice. He told Naomi that that was the team, she had no choice in the matter, and these people were chosen for a reason. That reason could be that they were dictated to him by Widmore or they could be some compromise between Widmore (who knows where the island is) and CBG who has unknown motives.

Also, we know Ben believes Widmore is after him (or at least that's what he wants Locke to believe he believes...it's complicated) and we know that it is the "rescuers" who have come for Ben.

In addition, the captain of the freighter also referenced the need to get Ben, same as the rescuers.
Widmore and his people certainly want to get Ben, and that certainly seems to be the motive of CS Lewis and Miles (who could do a double-cross). The Captain also stated that he's on board with this plan. In contrast, Faraday and Frank the pilot seem to have little to no interest in Ben or the others as of yet. CBG grilled Hurley about "the rest" which may have referred to the other survivors, the other passengers, the Others, or the DHARMAites. When talking to Naomi he stressed the fact that "there are no survivors" which could have been read as an instruction to kill anyone alive or simply that he believed everyone to be dead. In either case he hasn't said or hinted anything about Ben nor has Ben mentioned him.

It doesn't seem clear that CBG is necessarily affiliated with any of the power groups we know yet.

It's true that having all these people on the same freighter is a bit perplexing but on LOST that's no reason to necessarily believe that everyone is on the same page. I'd say that it seems strange that Daddy Widmore, with his massive wealth and power, would contract such a beat up, crappy, low tech freighter manned with this motley crew to do his bidding. You'd think he'd have some high tech equipment and sharp personnel.

All in all, I am almost certain that there are going to be more than 2 power brokers vying for control here.

Omniscient
03-14-2008, 05:04 PM
Remember, Hurley's super rich. He can hop on a flight to Korea whenever he wants, plus he probably got one of those Gold flying passes like Jack & Kate.

Is he still rich? He was presumed dead, it's safe to assume that his estate was dispersed. CBG was offering him an upgrade to a nicer nuthouse earlier this season for his cooperation. If Hurley is still fabulously rich you'd figure he could make that happen on his own.

Of course he would have the Golden Ticket, so no reason that he couldn't be in Korea on short notice.

Hogwash
03-14-2008, 05:06 PM
Desmond ran off the island before Michael ever came down to the hatch. By the time Desmond returned, Michael was off selling out Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley to Ben.

At least that's the way I remember it, brother.
You're probably right. I do remember Desmond running off, but I thought it was close to Electromagnetic Meltdown and therefore after Desmond had met some of the Losties.

So what is the exact breakdown of Michael's reappearance? Do both Desmond and Sayid know that it is Michael (I'm sure Sayid must be aware)? Are they feigning ignorance just out of general Lost wariness or because they know Ben has a man on the boat?

Omniscient
03-14-2008, 05:08 PM
Desmond ran off the island before Michael ever came down to the hatch. By the time Desmond returned, Michael was off selling out Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley to Ben.

At least that's the way I remember it, brother.

Let's take a couple minutes to note that we still don't know if Desmond has any of his memory back yet. Even if he and Michael knew each other Desmond might not remember him at all. In this episode all Desmond said was that he was feeling better, not that he had any recollection or understanding of whats going on. Overall he's been really passive since his chat with Penny.

Crown Prince of Irony
03-14-2008, 05:18 PM
Here's a thought - remember when Desmond and Sayid noted in their "holding cell" that someone was banging on the pipes?

What if it wasn't Michael, but rather. . .
Naomi! Who's to say that one of the effects of being on the fringe of the island's sphere of influence isn't revivification?!?!? "Brainnsss!"

42fish
03-14-2008, 05:21 PM
Let's take a couple minutes to note that we still don't know if Desmond has any of his memory back yet. Even if he and Michael knew each other Desmond might not remember him at all. In this episode all Desmond said was that he was feeling better, not that he had any recollection or understanding of whats going on. Overall he's been really passive since his chat with Penny.

Since he told Penny in his call 'I've been on an island' and addressed Sayid by name, it seems at a minimum those two parts of his memory are back.

SenorBeef
03-14-2008, 05:22 PM
So what is the exact breakdown of Michael's reappearance? Do both Desmond and Sayid know that it is Michael (I'm sure Sayid must be aware)? Are they feigning ignorance just out of general Lost wariness or because they know Ben has a man on the boat?

They were feigning ignorance because the doctor was there. They don't want to tip the boat's crew off about Michael.

Crown Prince of Irony
03-14-2008, 05:43 PM
Is he still rich? He was presumed dead, it's safe to assume that his estate was dispersed. <snip>
While I can imagine he would be declared dead soon after it was clear that Flight 815 had crashed, would his estate have been settled that quickly?

While probate is usually pretty quick if there is a will, I would imagine Hurley didn't have a will - remember, he felt his fortune was cursed, so why would he want to deed it to a loved one? If indeed he didn't have a will, most jurisdictions mandate a specific interval during which claimants can come forward, on the order of a few months to a year. In which case it's highly probable his fortune was intact when he got back to the US.

Saint Cad
03-14-2008, 05:50 PM
IIRC, Hurley asked if any others were coming, and when Sun said "no", he said "good". That was odd. I expected those two to start making out as the surprise ending.

He did say "good", right? That's meaningful - clearly there's at least one person Hurley hopes keeps away from Sun.


Remember when Jack visited him in the nuthouse, Hurley accused Jack of spying on him. Hurley's "good" may be nothing more than, "I'm glad they're not here. I don't trust those bastards."

As for the few that said Aaron is one of the O6, I believe there was a podcast from the producers that definitively said that Aaron was NOT an Oceanic Sixer.

bouv
03-14-2008, 06:00 PM
As for the few that said Aaron is one of the O6, I believe there was a podcast from the producers that definitively said that Aaron was NOT an Oceanic Sixer.

But didn't they say we'd find out the last of the Oceanic 6 last night? So...it could be Mr.Dead Guy No One Loves.

NajaNivea
03-14-2008, 06:07 PM
After Juliet spills the beans about Sun's affair, Sun is trying to talk to Jin, saying, "It was a long time ago."

Excuse me, missy, but it couldn't have been that long if you thought Bald Headed Dude (forgot his name, sorry) could have been the father of your baby and you're only two months preggers.
Right, and he was teaching her English so she could make her escape, right up until just before they got on the airplane. My uh... explanation is that it was a long time ago in terms of their relationship. Short in actual time, but long in terms of how much their marriage has developed and changed since they got to the island. Yeah, that's the ticket! ;)

Punoqllads
03-14-2008, 07:02 PM
IIRC, Hurley asked if any others were coming, and when Sun said "no", he said "good". That was odd. I expected those two to start making out as the surprise ending.

He did say "good", right? That's meaningful - clearly there's at least one person Hurley hopes keeps away from Sun.

What was his exact wording? He might actually have asked, "Are any Others coming?"

Omniscient
03-14-2008, 07:18 PM
Since he told Penny in his call 'I've been on an island' and addressed Sayid by name, it seems at a minimum those two parts of his memory are back.
We beat this to death in that week's thread, but both those two facts are ones he very likely picked up in the time he spent on the boat locked up with Sayid. The writers have gone out of their way to avoid having Desmond say anything specific about the previous years on the island so it's safe to assume that they want us to be unsure if his memory is back.

I'm not saying his memory is gone, but people keep assuming it's back as a foregone conclusion and we simply don't have that info yet.

N9IWP
03-14-2008, 09:42 PM
Anyone catch the book that was being read upside down?
Is the name of the frieghter Karhma?
My recording ended at the "Bad Robot" logo, can someome summarise the next week promo?

thanks,

Brian

Kythereia
03-15-2008, 01:10 AM
Anyone catch the book that was being read upside down?
Is the name of the frieghter Karhma?
My recording ended at the "Bad Robot" logo, can someome summarise the next week promo?


a) The Survivors of the Chancellor by Jules Verne... about the final trip of a boat where everyone either drowns, gets stabbed, gets eaten by sharks, commits suicide, or gets poisoned. Mmmm, anvilicious.

b) As cool as that'd be, Lostpedia says the name of the freighter is the Kahana. Can mean in Hawaiian either "the turning point", "the drawing of a line", or, in proper context, "the work".

c) Sayid tosses Michael against a wall, snarls "Explain how you came to be on this boat!" Sawyer, on the island, is ticked--"The same guy who sold all of us out so he could get off the island?" while Kate looks unhappy and Locke looks pissed. Keamy on the freighter loads up a gun and starts shooting at something. Jack looks... contemplative? Ben says "What wouldn't a man do for his son?" Michael wears a headset and cries. Says to the freighter crew, "I thought we were going on a rescue mission!" while they laugh in his face. Claire glares, someone gets punched, Juliet looks wistful, Miles looks bitchy, dramatic voiceover: "Someone will DIE!" And flash to Jin, Michael saying "I'm sorry--" and pressing a button.

Mahaloth
03-15-2008, 10:39 AM
Let's take a couple minutes to note that we still don't know if Desmond has any of his memory back yet. Even if he and Michael knew each other Desmond might not remember him at all. In this episode all Desmond said was that he was feeling better, not that he had any recollection or understanding of whats going on. Overall he's been really passive since his chat with Penny.

Really? I thought he regained his memory when he called Penny. His "constant" fixed the problem with the timeline and restored things back to normal.

delphica
03-15-2008, 11:01 AM
Is he still rich? He was presumed dead, it's safe to assume that his estate was dispersed. CBG was offering him an upgrade to a nicer nuthouse earlier this season for his cooperation. If Hurley is still fabulously rich you'd figure he could make that happen on his own.

Of course he would have the Golden Ticket, so no reason that he couldn't be in Korea on short notice.

I think whether or not he's rich, one thing about Hurley's character that has been pretty constant is that he likes to stick with what he is familiar with. So even if he still has his money, I would believe he would want to be in the nuthouse he already knows -- it's the same one he was in before, right? I don't think he wants an upgrade no matter who is paying for it.

On the question about Hurley saying "good!" when informed none of the other survivors are coming to Korea, I didn't think it had that much meaning, to be honest. I think when you're trying to cheer up a widow, you go with "good!" as the response to just about anything she tells you. Again, I think that's the way Hurley is -- if Sun had said Jack is coming, I bet he still would have said "Good!" even if he still had his own personal reservations/suspicions about Jack. He might have addressed them in private once Jack arrived, but he would feel obligated to put on a good face for Sun's benefit.

John Mace
03-15-2008, 11:40 AM
Did Sun have her baby in the U.S. or Korea? I kind of assumed it was the U.S. since all the doctors and 911 operator spoke english and Hurley was visiting.
Then when I saw Jin entering that toy store I was wondering why he was in Korea.
Sort of tipped me off from the beginning that they weren't in the same place.
Sun and all the hospital staff were speaking Korean. You must've been confused.

I thought Sun had her baby in Korea as everyone in the delivery was speaking Korean. The cemetery I assume was in Hawai'i. Korean cemeteries from what I've read, don't have as much open space.
It was supposed to be Korea, but of course it was filmed in Hawaii. I'm always laughing at the scenes that are so obviously Hawaii but are meant to be somewhere else.

Remember that in an earlier episode Sun said she wanted to raise the baby in Seoul, while Jin kept trying to pick out American cities to live in.

brickbacon
03-15-2008, 12:49 PM
Question: Where do you all think Walt is? Didn't he sail off with his Pop, the ethically conflicted Michael?

I think Walt is either with Widmore's people or he is dead/dying. If it's the former, I think they probably either reached home, or were intercepted at some point by Widmore's people (not the ones on the freighter).

How'd he get back to the island, if he did? I'm assuming Ben is still using Walt as a stick to get Michael to do his bidding, tho that trope is getting kinda old.

Well, I doubt they found Michael out in the middle of the ocean, and decided to pick him up. Even of they had, he would be the first person they'd suspect if a bunch of shit starting going wrong. In addition, I don't think they'd knowingly allow a kid to come on board. So, Micheal had to have made it to land in order to avoid suspicion. Where that leaves Walt is guesswork. Maybe, he is sick, and needs to get back to the island. I can see Michael's rationale for trying to get back to the island to save the people he screwed over.

Diceman
03-15-2008, 01:58 PM
Well, I was totally fooled. Here, I was thinking, "Wow, Sun and Jin got divorced, and Jin remarried and is back to being a gangster? That sucks." Eventually, I realized that we were seeing both a flashforward and a flashback.

I'm not totally convinced either way, but at the grave Sun was really talking like he was dead and not just absent.
That's what I'm thinking. If Jin was alive and Sun knows it, then Jin's fake grave would mean nothing to her. She would have to pretend like she was mourning, and it looked to me like Sun's grief was pretty real. I think that Jin either dies on the island or on the boat, and the grave marker is just a cenotaph. Remember how Jack claimed that 8 people survived the crash, but only 6 were rescued. Apparently, Claire and Jin were persons number 7 and 8. I wonder if something happens to kill most or all of the crew on the boat. The preview for next week shows Michael apologizing before pushing a big red button. I'm betting that he either blows up the helicopter or sinks the ship.

I'm sure that other people will make it off the island secretly. Probably in Desmond's boat. We know Ben leaves, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Juliet does too. I think Sawyer will get off too, mainly because he's too popular a character for the producers to just write him out for an entire season. Also, I can imagine him working for Ben much more easily than I can imagine Sayid doing so. Maybe Sawyer manages to con Ben into getting him off the island, and then screws Ben over and disappears on him. It would be totally in-character for him. I hope Desmond escapes, but I'm afraid he's going to die soon. Locke won't leave unless they make him. At this point, I expect that he'll end up joining the Others, if Ben doesn't kill him.

Incidentally, I'm a little disappointed that we didn't learn why Jin was hand-delivering a watch to someone in America. Hopefully, we'll learn more now that Michael is back. (He has the watch, after all.) I'm betting it had some sort of secret message hidden inside. Maybe a little flash-memory chip containing stolen information, or something along those lines.

I've got a wild theory about the fake plane at the bottom of the Ocean. Maybe there were two Oceanic 815's. We've seen all sorts of wierd time-space warps happen to things that were approaching or leaving the island. Maybe, as Oceanic 815 was approaching the island, something actually caused the plane to bi-locate. The duplicate plane appeared in the Indian Ocean, and crashed into the Sunda Trench, while the original crashed on the island. As for why the "fake" pilot wasn't wearing a wedding ring, maybe for some reason gold can't bi-locate, so none of the duplicate passengers and crew have any sort of gold jewelery.

Sir Prize
03-15-2008, 02:34 PM
Remember how Jack claimed that 8 people survived the crash, but only 6 were rescued. Apparently, Claire and Jin were persons number 7 and 8. Jin is supposed to have died the day of the crash so it's very doubtful that he was of the two additional survivors. Aaron is supposed to be Kate's kid so there is no reason for Claire be the other survivor.

JohnT
03-15-2008, 02:55 PM
My random thoughts:

1. Ben is a good guy. Oh, he seems evil 'cause he's so unlikable (and, you know, all those Dharma deaths), but in the end he'll be on the side of Angels. ;)
2. I don't buy that Jin is actually dead. You can have a grave marker without a grave, and if the story is that there are only six survivors (and he's not one of them), it's perfectly reasonable that there would be a grave marker for him. It's also too much like this show to "reveal" that Jin is dead, only later to reveal that he isn't.
3. We don't know the timeline yet, but it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Hurley still has his money, or could have retrieved some of it after he came back. Being a California resident, his money would've passed (assuming he had no will) to his parents. http://sawdaydrake.typepad.com/estate_planning/2006/03/faq_what_happen.html
4. Where did Ben or whoever get a 747 to stage the fake crash? It's not as if the things are mass-produced ala Big Macs, and I'm 99% sure that each plane is carefully tracked by Boeing and the various national aviation authorities. A 747 isn't exactly something you can steal without nobody noticing.
5. I just reviewed the preview to this past episode and the voice over specifically states "you will know the last of the Oceanic Six." We know the following people are no longer on the island (those with asterisk's beside their names have been referenced as one of the Six):

Jack*
Sayid*
Kate*
Sun*
Hurley*
Aaron
Ben

Of the two non-asterisked people, we're aware that Aaron is known to the authorities (and the press, given that Kate's mom knows of his existence). Given that we also know that Ben can get on/off the island at will, and that an infant cannot, it's only reasonable to assume that Aaron is one of the Six. Or that the voice-over was lying. :p
6. The person who dies in the next episode? My guess is Desmond. Why? Because! ;)
7. When Sayid opened the note, I fully expected it to say "WAAAAAAALLLLLLLT!" I was rather disappointed that it said "Don't trust the Captain" or whatever.

John Mace
03-15-2008, 03:55 PM
Lostpedia has a good article on The Oceanic 6. (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Oceanic_6) Seems like Aaron i the likely 6th.

* Aaron was revealed to be in Kate's care at the end of "Eggtown". He was not yet born when the flight crashed, but the public might consider him a "surviving passenger" of it. He has not been referred to as one of the six.
o The official ABC promo for "Eggtown" claimed that another member of the Oceanic Six would be revealed in that episode. Since Kate was already semi-confirmed as per "Through the Looking Glass", this could be interpreted as referring to Aaron instead. Furthermore, the ABC promo for "Ji Yeon" claimed that the last of the Oceanic Six would be revealed in that episode, thereby suggesting that all the other members of the group had already been revealed by that point.

Hampshire
03-15-2008, 03:58 PM
Sun and all the hospital staff were speaking Korean. You must've been confused.


Ha! You're right. I guess I'm so used to reading subtitles now I don't even notice it anymore.

John Mace
03-15-2008, 03:59 PM
BTW, I think we can also assume that Claire is one of the Oceanic 2-- the two people who survived the crash but died on the island. Else Aaron would not have been born. My guess is that Charlie will be #2, since he is known to have communicated to the outside world.

msmith537
03-15-2008, 05:22 PM
Is he still rich? He was presumed dead, it's safe to assume that his estate was dispersed. CBG was offering him an upgrade to a nicer nuthouse earlier this season for his cooperation. If Hurley is still fabulously rich you'd figure he could make that happen on his own.

I think it's safe to say that even if that were true, they are all probably rich now. I'm sure there was more in their settlement with Oceanic Airlines than a golden ticket to fly whenever they want. In fact, I believe Sayid said on the golf course that he was of means and didn't do much all day.



On an unrelated note, I didn't realize that Oceanic Airlines was such a frequently used movie bullshit airline until I saw Executive Decision.

Windwalker
03-15-2008, 10:00 PM
I wonder if it would be a good idea now to start a new airline as "Oceanic Airways". You have millions upon millions of dollars of free start-up brand advertising done for you already. Just don't number any of your flights 815 and you're good to go. ;)

Kythereia
03-16-2008, 12:26 AM
6. The person who dies in the next episode? My guess is Desmond. Why? Because! ;)

LA LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING TO YOU. *plugs ears*

Seriously, I think Desmond's got too much plot potential left--especially with the time travel and the reveal that he's Daniel's 'constant'.

My money is on Claire or Jin (or maybe Sawyer, but I doubt it).

Omniscient
03-16-2008, 06:55 AM
Really? I thought he regained his memory when he called Penny. His "constant" fixed the problem with the timeline and restored things back to normal.

Maybe, maybe not. The writers have gone out of their way to keep it vague since that episode so it's a mistake to automatically assume he's got his memory back. Finding his constant might have just stopped his brain from leaking out his ears and that's it.

middleman
03-16-2008, 12:18 PM
LA LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING TO YOU. *plugs ears*

Seriously, I think Desmond's got too much plot potential left--especially with the time travel and the reveal that he's Daniel's 'constant'.

My money is on Claire or Jin (or maybe Sawyer, but I doubt it).

I'm putting money down that it isn't a principle member of the cast.

well he's back
03-16-2008, 12:29 PM
I'm thinking the black guy (sorry, can't remember his name) who sent Naomi on her mission must have a connection with Widmore or Penny - because of the photograph Naomi had of Desmond and Penny, right? What the connection is, is obviously still a mystery.

msmith537
03-16-2008, 12:48 PM
LA LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING TO YOU. *plugs ears*

Seriously, I think Desmond's got too much plot potential left--especially with the time travel and the reveal that he's Daniel's 'constant'.

My money is on Claire or Jin (or maybe Sawyer, but I doubt it).


Hmmm. On the other hand, Desmond has reconnected with Penny and they have declared their love. People on the island have a tendency to die once they wrap up their personal shit.

Saint Cad
03-16-2008, 01:24 PM
Quick question:

Do survivors of plane crashes usually get life-altering $ from the airline?

If not, did the O6 get all of their money from another person? I doubt through books since they seem reticient about talking about their experiences. Did they get it from Ben? Widmore? DHARMA? Someone else?

If not, maybe thats just deus ex machina of TV land that "We need the O6 to have a lot of money." "Just write them an assload of money"

jackdavinci
03-16-2008, 02:18 PM
Widmore didn't fake the plane crash. The implication is that Ben did.

Well the Captain (who Michael says not to trust) implies that Ben did it. Ben (who is a known liar) implies that Widmore did it. So two untrustworthy groups are blaming the other one. I don't think this will be resolved anytime soon.

That said, any theory on why pregnant women die? I think the altered time of the island messes up the baby...the baby's on real time, the mother's on Island time, or vice versa. Claire got pregnant before the plane crash, so she and the baby never got out of sync..

Juliet's various flashbacks have said that at a certain point the woman's immune system turns on her (although for some reason the dialogue then says that the T-cell count plummets - wouldn't it rise?). My theory is that the healing powers of the island boost the immune system, but that when the immune system is so powerful it can't the baby apart from a foreign body and attacks it. On the other hand, this doesn't happen if conception happens off island, so who knows? My other theory is that because Ben's mom died in childbirth (or maybe he ended up marrying his childhood sweetheart Annie and she died in childbirth too) that he is somehow psychically projecting his childbirth angst onto the island.

Desmond ran off the island before Michael ever came down to the hatch. By the time Desmond returned, Michael was off selling out Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley to Ben..

Desmond's boat arrived at the campsite the same day as Libby and AnaLucia's funeral. Michael left the next day on his mission. So he probably ran into Michael very briefly.

BobT
03-16-2008, 05:17 PM
But Desmond was also drunk when he first got back to the island. He probably doesn't remember much for a different reason.

tanstaafl
03-16-2008, 06:53 PM
Given that the freighter folks had the (fake?) black box, were they expecting to find the survivors on the Island?

Frank (helicopter pilot) admits that he studied the manifest; had he done that before Jack contacted them and let them know there were survivors there? Or did he study it really quickly between the time they received the call and the time they took off for the Island.

Also, Naomi asked Abbadon what she should do if she encountered survivors. Abbadon states that there were no survivors. She then repeats the question with "Well what if I do?" Abbadon says, with some emphasis, "There *were* no survivors."

So, did the freighter folks know there was some chance of them encountering survivors? And, does Abbadon's statement imply that, even if they did, there *wouldn't* be any when they left?

Diceman
03-16-2008, 11:10 PM
Frank (helicopter pilot) admits that he studied the manifest; had he done that before Jack contacted them and let them know there were survivors there? Or did he study it really quickly between the time they received the call and the time they took off for the Island.
There were 324 people on the plane, yet Frank knew immediately that no one named "Juliet Burke" was among them. You don't memorize 324 names overnight; Frank must have spent weeks studying that manifest.

Also, Miles showed a noticeable lack of surprise at finding survivors. One of the Losties even called him out on it, at which point Miles sarcastically pretended to be surprised.

At this point, I think it's pretty clear that they were expecting to find survivors, or at least knew that it was possible. As for what they're planning to do with the survivors, I'm guessing that they're planning to either leave the castaways stranded, or have the mercenaries kill them. I really can't imagine Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, and Frank launching any sort of widescale bloodbath; they're probably out of the loop on that issue.

Astroboy14
03-17-2008, 07:04 AM
Well, the cemetery shown last night was surely either in Hawaii or Los Angeles in real-life, but I think it was meant to be Korea. The "911" operator answered in Korean, so she was certainly in Korea. Also, didn't she mention to Jin an episode or two back once the "rescuers" arrived that she wanted to raise the baby in Korea?

I was curious about this, so I re-watched the episode last night. I wanted to see if Sun dialed 911 or not... in S. Korea, emergency services isn't 911, it's 119. It certainly looked to me as if she dialed 119 and not 911; furthermore the sound went "beep-beep-boop" as opposed to "boop-beep-beep". Nice catch by the sound people there, I think.

The Chao Goes Mu
03-17-2008, 09:30 AM
Something that caught my attention when Captain Whatisname shows Sayid and Des the "black box" was that the box was actually black. I was always under the assumption that they are bright orange or some other bright color to assist in recovery.

I also think Sun was in Korea. In fact, wasn't her aparment the same one she shared with Jin pre-crash?

JohnT
03-17-2008, 09:36 AM
I thought the box was orange, but had sustained burn damage so that parts of it were black. I could be wrong, however - wouldn't be the first time with this show.

Antigen
03-17-2008, 10:29 AM
Maybe, maybe not. The writers have gone out of their way to keep it vague since that episode so it's a mistake to automatically assume he's got his memory back. Finding his constant might have just stopped his brain from leaking out his ears and that's it.
Here's how I see it:
Past Desmond switched places with present Desmond - there's one of him who is stuck in a loop, living the same few years over and over, which is why he was having those flash-forwards, knowing Charlie was going to die, etc. Which leaves a second Desmond who has a huge gap in his memory because he jumped from that visit to Penny's apartment straight to the phone call from the freighter.

Sorry if this was all covered in last week's thread, I've been caught up with packing for my move next weekend and I'm out of touch with the Lost threads. I'll be back next week, though, I swear!

stpauler
03-17-2008, 10:33 AM
By the way, is Miles still in the boathouse with a grenade in his mouth? That would be going on a couple days now.

Merijeek
03-17-2008, 10:37 AM
I'm putting money down that it isn't a principle member of the cast.

I'm betting on Bernard. He's been around long enough for viewers to feel sorry for him, he's not all that important, and he popped in last week just long enough to remind us he's alive.

-Joe

borschevsky
03-17-2008, 12:34 PM
I'm trying to remember - at the grave, did Sun say anything explicitly confirming that Jin was dead? If Jin made some deal to stay on the island so that Sun could leave and have the baby, she might still give the "I miss you" that we saw. It's a bit contrived, but I think still inside the margins for the kind of misdirection the show does. There have been some hints that some of the Losties stay behind on the island when the 6 leave.

Iggins
03-17-2008, 01:05 PM
There's no way that Ji Yeon is number 6, right? When Sun was "rescued", she may have been noticeably pregnant...

Hampshire
03-17-2008, 01:39 PM
I'm trying to remember - at the grave, did Sun say anything explicitly confirming that Jin was dead? If Jin made some deal to stay on the island so that Sun could leave and have the baby, she might still give the "I miss you" that we saw. It's a bit contrived, but I think still inside the margins for the kind of misdirection the show does. There have been some hints that some of the Losties stay behind on the island when the 6 leave.

No, it's not contrived at all. It's actually pretty obvious. Jin stayed behind on the island with everyone but the six.
They made it obvious by showing his date of death matching the plane crash date. Part of the deal in getting off the island must have been to never attempt to go back AND stick with the story that all others had perished in the crash. She still misses him and has probably lost hope of ever seeing him again.
We'll find out the specifics of the deal by season end.

Merijeek
03-17-2008, 01:59 PM
No, it's not contrived at all. It's actually pretty obvious. Jin stayed behind on the island with everyone but the six.
They made it obvious by showing his date of death matching the plane crash date. Part of the deal in getting off the island must have been to never attempt to go back AND stick with the story that all others had perished in the crash. She still misses him and has probably lost hope of ever seeing him again.
We'll find out the specifics of the deal by season end.

Sounds like a pretty unrealistic deal to me - we'll be forcing some people to stay on the island, and we're letting others go...but we're going to split up one of the two married couples. Oh, and the one we're splitting up is pregnant, which would make things even less likely to go smoothly.

IMO, Jin, in that future, is dead.

-Joe

Hampshire
03-17-2008, 02:04 PM
Sounds like a pretty unrealistic deal to me - we'll be forcing some people to stay on the island, and we're letting others go...but we're going to split up one of the two married couples. Oh, and the one we're splitting up is pregnant, which would make things even less likely to go smoothly.

IMO, Jin, in that future, is dead.

-Joe

I'd be willing to bet otherwise. (of course IMO)

Justin_Bailey
03-17-2008, 02:08 PM
IMO, Jin, in that future, is dead.

I have a very hard time believing the producers would whack a main character (especially one as loved as Jin) offscreen.

If Charlie dies in a sad profound way from a grenade dropped by Mikhail that changes the way everyone lives on the island, then Jin would have to die by wrestling the Dharma Shark to ensure Sun gets to safety.

Tyrrell McAllister
03-17-2008, 02:08 PM
No, it's not contrived at all. It's actually pretty obvious. Jin stayed behind on the island with everyone but the six.
They made it obvious by showing his date of death matching the plane crash date. Part of the deal in getting off the island must have been to never attempt to go back AND stick with the story that all others had perished in the crash. She still misses him and has probably lost hope of ever seeing him again.
We'll find out the specifics of the deal by season end.

I think that "pretty obvious" is overstating the case. The Oceanic Six might have needed to lie about how many people survived the crash even if Jin really died.

I expect that many of the passengers are still on the island or otherwise hidden away. But I also won't be surprised if Jin is really dead. In fact, I would feel a little cheated by her performance at the end if she didn't believe that Jin was dead, or at least lost to her forever, like if he fell into an interdimensional vortex or something.

borschevsky
03-17-2008, 02:56 PM
I have a very hard time believing the producers would whack a main character (especially one as loved as Jin) offscreen.

If Charlie dies in a sad profound way from a grenade dropped by Mikhail that changes the way everyone lives on the island, then Jin would have to die by wrestling the Dharma Shark to ensure Sun gets to safety.I imagine that they'll show his death on the island in a future episode, assuming he really is dead as shown in the flashforward. It seems a bit like Charlie last season, where they led up to his death over all those episodes.

In fact, this time I'm going to guess that it ends up that he's not dead, just because of this similarity to Charlie. Who knows though :)

CarnalK
03-17-2008, 03:04 PM
Sounds like a pretty unrealistic deal to me - we'll be forcing some people to stay on the island, and we're letting others go...but we're going to split up one of the two married couples. Oh, and the one we're splitting up is pregnant, which would make things even less likely to go smoothly.
Since we have no idea how the escape of the 6 takes place, isn't it a little premature to say how "realistic" the break up/selection process was?

CJJ*
03-17-2008, 03:15 PM
During Kate's trial, Jack gave the bare bones of a story that we know is a lie: Only eight people survived the plane crash and made it to the island. Hurley during his interrogation lied when he said he didn't know Ana Lucia, and he seemed to lie very deliberately, with an apprehension that surfaces later in his confrontation with the black "representative" from Oceanic Air and his reaction to the ghost of Charlie. And unless we posit a convoluted "alternate reality" theory (a path I hope the producers don't follow, as at this pint it would be a cop-out), I can't believe Sun's reaction to the obviously fake headstone is wholly genuine.

It's not conclusive, but these bits make it quite plausible that Jin is still alive. I think at this point we just can't answer the question, but I'm leaning toward the "alive and stuck on the island" camp; it just makes the most sense.

Omniscient
03-17-2008, 03:36 PM
And unless we posit a convoluted "alternate reality" theory (a path I hope the producers don't follow, as at this pint it would be a cop-out), I can't believe Sun's reaction to the obviously fake headstone is wholly genuine.
I just don't understand what this is based on. You're just overthinking things it seems. What is more likely? Sun and Hurley go to a headstone that they know is fake and pretend he's dead for some unknown purpose, or they really believe him dead and are actually mourning him?

It's not conclusive, but these bits make it quite plausible that Jin is still alive. I think at this point we just can't answer the question, but I'm leaning toward the "alive and stuck on the island" camp; it just makes the most sense.

On what bits? The bits that have nothing to do with Jin? The bit where you decided the headstone is a fake based on no data? Sure, it's possible that Jin is still alive, but I can't see anyway where that's the most likely scenario or a scenario that's been hinted at.

OneChance
03-17-2008, 03:39 PM
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but as far as the general public knows, the plan wreckage was found and all of the passengers were accounted for and dead. Now there were supposedly 8 survivors, and 6 lived to get rescued. How is it explained that all passengers were dead at the bottom of the sea, and now there are 8 survivors? Wouldn't people be wondering where those 8 extra dead bodies at the bottom of the sea came from?

Indistinguishable
03-17-2008, 03:40 PM
The bit where you decided the headstone is a fake based on no data?
Well, the date on the headstone is clearly a lie, so it's not entirely unreasonable to suppose there may be more deception going on.

Merijeek
03-17-2008, 03:43 PM
I have a very hard time believing the producers would whack a main character (especially one as loved as Jin) offscreen.

If Charlie dies in a sad profound way from a grenade dropped by Mikhail that changes the way everyone lives on the island, then Jin would have to die by wrestling the Dharma Shark to ensure Sun gets to safety.

And he might. At no point whatsoever did I say that Jin was going to die offscreen. I said between the "now" of this episode and the "baby birthing future" of this episode Jin is going to die.

-Joe

Hampshire
03-17-2008, 03:45 PM
I don't propose to know what the DEAL was or is going to be with the 6 getting off the island (whether an organized chosen 6 or a random by chance 6) but just a random speculation of how they were forced into keeping mum could be along the lines of:
"You 6 got lucky to get off the island, this is the story we will go with. The other survivors will remain for the rest of their days to live peacefully and comfortably on the island. If you attempt to alert anyone about them or make a rescue they will all be killed before anyone even gets close to the island. Your choice."
So Jin could still be living comfortably on the island with Sun knowing this but she's still grieveing since she can never see him again for the rest of her life. In her mind he may as well be dead.

SmellMyWort
03-17-2008, 03:52 PM
BTW, I think we can also assume that Claire is one of the Oceanic 2-- the two people who survived the crash but died on the island. Else Aaron would not have been born. My guess is that Charlie will be #2, since he is known to have communicated to the outside world.

However, assuming Kate's "son" Aaron is really Claire's Aaron, there's no reason for the O6 to name Claire as one of the O2. In fact it make their story more complicated if they do. I think they'll likely have two people who's deaths will need immediate explanation--like Charlie as you suggested.

If Claire is one of the O2 then I could see some situation where Claire dies as they are trying to be rescued and Kate grabs the baby to claim as her own for some reason.

Someone else mentioned the banging on the pipes. My first thought when I heard that was a kid throwing a ball over and over against a wall or something...Walt?

Well, the date on the headstone is clearly a lie, so it's not entirely unreasonable to suppose there may be more deception going on.
True, but it's also the easier lie. "He died in the plane crash," does not open the can of worms that any other explanation of his death would.

Omniscient
03-17-2008, 03:55 PM
Well, the date on the headstone is clearly a lie, so it's not entirely unreasonable to suppose there may be more deception going on.

Considering that it's Lost, there's certainly deception going on. There's nothing specifically precluding the possibility that Jin's headstone is a fake (beyond the fudged date). My issue is with the idea that that's the most probable scenario.

The main reason it seems unlikely is that Hurley and Sun would almost certainly know if Jin is alive or dead. If he's alive and on the island they'd know it. If he's alive there's no logical reason why they'd go and visit his grave. If Jin is stranded on the island they'd just wish him the best from home. They wouldn't get dressed in their black suits and visit the grave with the new baby unless they think him dead.

It would be a pretty serious reversal/deception if the writers had Jin still alive and Sun/Hurley aware of that fact.

Merijeek
03-17-2008, 03:57 PM
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but as far as the general public knows, the plan wreckage was found and all of the passengers were accounted for and dead. Now there were supposedly 8 survivors, and 6 lived to get rescued. How is it explained that all passengers were dead at the bottom of the sea, and now there are 8 survivors? Wouldn't people be wondering where those 8 extra dead bodies at the bottom of the sea came from?

I brought it up, but nobody seems to have cared.

Fact of the matter is there's a big-ass conspiracy going on and by the time of the Oceanic Six it's been blown completely open across all the world. Maybe that's why they're so famous? Sure, being a plane crash survivor may be all neat-o and everything, but not enough to make your face nationally or internationally famous for months or years afterwards.

-Joe

Merijeek
03-17-2008, 04:08 PM
Someone else mentioned the banging on the pipes. My first thought when I heard that was a kid throwing a ball over and over against a wall or something...Walt?


I thought for sure Sayid was going to identify it as morse code and get reams of information from thirty seconds of whacking. Nice to see they skipped that cliche at least.

-Joe

Omniscient
03-17-2008, 04:21 PM
I brought it up, but nobody seems to have cared.

Fact of the matter is there's a big-ass conspiracy going on and by the time of the Oceanic Six it's been blown completely open across all the world. Maybe that's why they're so famous? Sure, being a plane crash survivor may be all neat-o and everything, but not enough to make your face nationally or internationally famous for months or years afterwards.

-Joe

I don't see this as a particularly serious sticking point. Finding 324 bodies scattered at the bottom of the ocean following a plane crash would be quite a difficult thing. Properly identifying them would be a challenge what with sea animals picking at the bodies and such. So far no one has said that the wreckage and bodies were recovered, just that they were found. While Ben's people could come up with 324 bodies, they couldn't clone them so they'd pass efforts to scientifically identify them. I figure that once the 6 survivors turn up the media and investigators would have no trouble just chalking it up to an honest mistake, especially considering the buzz around 6 "dead" people coming back to life.

And yes, I think that 6 people surviving a plane crash and being stranded for god knows how long after being chalked up for dead would make them plenty famous without the conspiracy being uncovered.

borschevsky
03-17-2008, 04:39 PM
True, but it's also the easier lie. "He died in the plane crash," does not open the can of worms that any other explanation of his death would.Except Sun got pregnant on the island. What's the timeline like on that? Could Sun plausibly claim that they conceived before the crash?

Omniscient
03-17-2008, 04:42 PM
Except Sun got pregnant on the island. What's the timeline like on that? Could Sun plausibly claim that they conceived before the crash?

Well, it was close enough that Sun herself didn't know who the father was so it must have happened awfully close to the time of the crash, probably within a week or so. I'd say it'd not be questioned much at all.

Merijeek
03-17-2008, 04:46 PM
I don't see this as a particularly serious sticking point. Finding 324 bodies scattered at the bottom of the ocean following a plane crash would be quite a difficult thing. Properly identifying them would be a challenge what with sea animals picking at the bodies and such. So far no one has said that the wreckage and bodies were recovered, just that they were found. While Ben's people could come up with 324 bodies, they couldn't clone them so they'd pass efforts to scientifically identify them. I figure that once the 6 survivors turn up the media and investigators would have no trouble just chalking it up to an honest mistake, especially considering the buzz around 6 "dead" people coming back to life.

And yes, I think that 6 people surviving a plane crash and being stranded for god knows how long after being chalked up for dead would make them plenty famous without the conspiracy being uncovered.

Nobody is saying the bodies have to be clones. The whole point is that it has been made very clear and been stated several times that ALL the bodies were found. There were 324 expected corpses and there were 324 corpses found.

They didn't find scattered hunks of a plane, the found an entire plane with 324 bodies on it. Suddenly, there's eight of those people who were not only presumed dead but COUNTED up and walking around.

I think that would be a big deal.

-Joe

John Mace
03-17-2008, 05:08 PM
I just assumed that Sun and Hurley went to the fake grave as a symbolic way of connecting with Jin, and that he's probably still alive on The Island. I like the idea that Bernard is going to kick the bucket this week-- I thought it was rather odd that he suddenly made an appearance last week.

Astroboy14
03-17-2008, 05:09 PM
The main reason it seems unlikely is that Hurley and Sun would almost certainly know if Jin is alive or dead. If he's alive and on the island they'd know it. If he's alive there's no logical reason why they'd go and visit his grave. If Jin is stranded on the island they'd just wish him the best from home. They wouldn't get dressed in their black suits and visit the grave with the new baby unless they think him dead.


Unless, for whatever reason, they knew or suspected that they were being clooooosly watched... and had to act as if they were both in mourning. Maybe that has something to do with why Hurley says "Good!" with that weird emphasis when Sun tells him no one else is coming.

conspiracy nut shifty eyes

SmellMyWort
03-17-2008, 05:17 PM
Except Sun got pregnant on the island. What's the timeline like on that? Could Sun plausibly claim that they conceived before the crash?

Mile High Club :D

Astroboy14
03-17-2008, 05:41 PM
Mile High Club :D

Or: "I'm... not... quite dead yet... come on... yobo... send me on... with a smile!" :)

Omniscient
03-17-2008, 06:02 PM
Nobody is saying the bodies have to be clones. The whole point is that it has been made very clear and been stated several times that ALL the bodies were found. There were 324 expected corpses and there were 324 corpses found.

Well, here's the thing. If the bodies were actually pulled up from the bottom of the ocean and closely examined there's no way all the dental records and DNA tests would match if it were faked. This allows only 2 scenarios:

1) They didn't actually recover the bodies, just visually inspected them on the ocean floor with a sub, or perhaps Ben's people simply distributed disinformation on the subject.

2) The bodies were recovered and miraculously matched the tests which means that they were cloned/replicated in unfeasible detail, or that there's some alternate reality plane and bodies ripped from another parallel universe actually sitting there.

Now, the cloning thing is too outlandish to accept. The alternate reality/time travel thing is possible but I think the creators have said that's not going to be the case. Additionally Frank said that the Captain seen in the pilot's seat wasn't the man he knew because he wasn't wearing his wedding band, which pretty much rules out the whole alternate reality idea. So I'm assuming that the staged bodies were never actually recovered but just seen, counted and assumed to be who they should be. Or perhaps the "search" team are agents of Ben's and made the whole thing up.

They didn't find scattered hunks of a plane, the found an entire plane with 324 bodies on it. Suddenly, there's eight of those people who were not only presumed dead but COUNTED up and walking around.

I think that would be a big deal.

Say's who? We saw a DSRV taking video of the broken remains of the plane and the pilot from the front window. That's all we know. One can presume that any wreckage of a plane that crashed into water is going to be somewhat scattered and some of the bodies would be disturbed and not conveniently strapped into their assigned seats.

The world has been told that all the bodies were accounted for. The Captain has said the wreck was staged and that 324 bodies were put on board. Logic dictates that those 324 bodies weren't actually recovered.

I don't think people would be too flabbergasted that an underwater search team might have miscounted the number of dead bodies they found, or that they just mistakenly assumed no one could survive. A plane crash under water is a pretty uncertain environment after all, it's not like all those bodies were filling caskets at funerals. There's no reason to think that there's a corpse of "Kate" and "Jack" stored or buried somewhere to create controversy.

I just don't think the idea that there was a "miscount" of the bodies on board would be much of a story when 6 survivors are rescued.

NajaNivea
03-18-2008, 12:22 AM
1) They didn't actually recover the bodies, just visually inspected them on the ocean floor with a sub, or perhaps Ben's people simply distributed disinformation on the subject.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they state this was the case? The plane was too deep in the trench and it would be too difficult to actually recover the bodies. I think this was made clear when the news footage was shown.

audit1
03-18-2008, 12:40 AM
In the LOST timeline, it has only been about 100 days since the crash. So the authorities may be in the procees of recovering the plane but might not have completted the task.

Smid
03-18-2008, 06:28 AM
In the LOST timeline, it has only been about 100 days since the crash. So the authorities may be in the procees of recovering the plane but might not have completted the task.

I think, and this is purely a gut feeling, that time moves at different rate on island. Its 100 days since the crash on the Island. All the flashforwards are much further on by three years, I'm wondering whether thats because its really around there off island...

I do wonder about the significance of the Red Sox tape. They won the world series in both 2004 and 2007, right? One the year of the crash, the other the year the Oceanic six appear to be in...

Or this might just be nonsense...

Smid
03-18-2008, 06:38 AM
My random thoughts:
5. I just reviewed the preview to this past episode and the voice over specifically states "you will know the last of the Oceanic Six." We know the following people are no longer on the island (those with asterisk's beside their names have been referenced as one of the Six):

Jack*
Sayid*
Kate*
Sun*
Hurley*
Aaron
Ben

Of the two non-asterisked people, we're aware that Aaron is known to the authorities (and the press, given that Kate's mom knows of his existence). Given that we also know that Ben can get on/off the island at will, and that an infant cannot, it's only reasonable to assume that Aaron is one of the Six. Or that the voice-over was lying. :p


You missed two definitely off the islands, and one probably off the island.

Desmond (but not oceanic passenger, but neither is Ben)
Michael

And of course probably:

WAAAAAAAAALLLLLLTT

Tyrrell McAllister
03-18-2008, 06:41 AM
You missed two definitely off the islands, and one probably off the island.

Desmond (but not oceanic passenger, but neither is Ben)
Michael

And of course probably:

WAAAAAAAAALLLLLLTT

I think that JohnT was listing those who are off the island in flashforwards. We don't know the status of Desmond, Michael, or Walt in that future time.

Merijeek
03-18-2008, 07:14 AM
1) They didn't actually recover the bodies, just visually inspected them on the ocean floor with a sub, or perhaps Ben's people simply distributed disinformation on the subject.


And that's what I think - they visually counted 324 bodies in the wreckage. Oh look, we STILL have eight too many corpses.

-Joe

Rilchiam
03-18-2008, 07:17 AM
I do wonder about the significance of the Red Sox tape. They won the world series in both 2004 and 2007, right? One the year of the crash, the other the year the Oceanic six appear to be in...

It was '06 in our time when Jack was shown the video of the '04 series, was it not?

tanstaafl
03-18-2008, 08:21 AM
Based on the calendar on the freighter and Desmond's call to Penelope, Sayid and Desmond arrive on the freighter on December 24, 2004. That's within a day or so of what people who had been tracking time in the show had come up with as the current date on the Island. So, if the date really is different on the Island than in the ouside world then it is only off by a day or so at most.

Smid
03-18-2008, 10:25 AM
It was '06 in our time when Jack was shown the video of the '04 series, was it not?

Hmmmn, I can't remember that (not being a baseball fan). I was referring to the last episode which was 08... If he's seen it before in an older episode, then it does strike me as strange to refer back to the tape as if it means something...

Smid
03-18-2008, 10:27 AM
Based on the calendar on the freighter and Desmond's call to Penelope, Sayid and Desmond arrive on the freighter on December 24, 2004. That's within a day or so of what people who had been tracking time in the show had come up with as the current date on the Island. So, if the date really is different on the Island than in the ouside world then it is only off by a day or so at most.

In which case they're not only off the island, but its a good 2 years later...

Now thats a question to ask... Why isn't it just 2 months or something?

Sitnam
03-18-2008, 11:30 AM
Sept. 22 is my birthday which is why I noticed it on Jin's tombstone listing his date of death as Sept. 22, 2004. It was also the reason that I noticed it in Season 3 when Desmond is in the locked hatch trying to convince Jack(?) to push the button. He was checking the data printed out on the racks of paper they got from the Pearl listing the date each entry was put into the machine. The day he missed was the same day the plane fell from the sky, Sept. 22nd. At first I thought the grave was just the one they gave him when the world discovered the bodies in the plane they found, but then I remembered Hurley says something to the effect of, "do you want to go see him?" to Sun meaning he knows Jin's body is there.

John Mace
03-18-2008, 11:59 AM
In which case they're not only off the island, but its a good 2 years later...

Now thats a question to ask... Why isn't it just 2 months or something?
Who is "they" and what event are you referring to that must be 2 years later?

Justin_Bailey
03-18-2008, 12:13 PM
Who is "they" and what event are you referring to that must be 2 years later?

He's referring to the Oceanic Six and the flashforwards, which are actually taking place between seven months later (because we know Sun is about two-three months along) and anytime after that.

John Mace
03-18-2008, 01:12 PM
He's referring to the Oceanic Six and the flashforwards, which are actually taking place between seven months later (because we know Sun is about two-three months along) and anytime after that.
But the Oceanic 6 are off the island, and he said they're not. So I'm still confused.

Justin_Bailey
03-18-2008, 01:16 PM
But the Oceanic 6 are off the island, and he said they're not. So I'm still confused.

I think you're parsing it wrong:

In which case they're not only off the island, but its a good 2 years later...

John Mace
03-18-2008, 02:06 PM
I think you're parsing it wrong:
Oh, OK. But why does it have to be 2 years? As already noted, it' anywhere from 7 months to close to present day (Through the Looking Glass). I'm thinking that each flashforward is a little closer to exit day from The Island, and I'm hoping this week's episode tells us at least something about why the Oceanic 6 got off and not everyone else.

Hampshire
03-18-2008, 02:21 PM
Oh, OK. But why does it have to be 2 years? As already noted, it' anywhere from 7 months to close to present day (Through the Looking Glass). I'm thinking that each flashforward is a little closer to exit day from The Island, and I'm hoping this week's episode tells us at least something about why the Oceanic 6 got off and not everyone else.

I'm thinking someone got the 2-year thing from looking at the kid named Aaron (presumeably Claire's, possibly Kate's).

John Mace
03-18-2008, 02:48 PM
I'm thinking someone got the 2-year thing from looking at the kid named Aaron (presumeably Claire's, possibly Kate's).
Yes, but it's clear that the other flashwards are at different times. Nothing special about that one episode, and although time does appear to move differently on and off Island, there seems to have been only about 1 day difference so far, as was pointed out earlier.

Peter Morris
03-18-2008, 03:03 PM
Am I missing someone? I thought we were going to find out who the last of the Oceanic 6 were. So far I have:

Jack
Hurley
Kate
Sayid
Sun

Who's the sixth?

Jin? He has a grave in Korea, so maybe he gets killed after he's rescued.

Maybe he was the one in the coffin at the end of last season. He goes to America on some business, perhaps looking for a house or something, he gets killed, Sun is too pregnant to fly, and the body is sent home for burial.

Peter Morris
03-18-2008, 03:12 PM
I think Jin's flashback was meant to remind us of where he came from, up to the 'present' on the Island--where he is. He was impatient, driven and uncaring, dedicated to his job before his wife.

I don't think so. He seemed like a thug initially, in Sun's flashback, but then his own flashback changed the impression. He had to take the job because it was the only way he could marry her, giving up his dream of owning his own hotel, he hated the things he had to do, and was looking for a way out.

And he went to the hospital on business, but spoke about his own wife with love, and seemed to hope he would be a father one day.

Peter Morris
03-18-2008, 03:14 PM
I know somebody else pointed it out, but this is inaccurate...

Captain said that Widmore went through great expense to get the box. Can you imagine the cost it took to fake ane ntire plane crash? Can you imagine why you would do such a thing? More disturbing, can you imagine where you would get all those dead bodies? This is just one reason why we are after Benjamin Linus.


But why are they after him? Are they after him in order to punish him for his wickedness ... or to recruit him as an ally? I suspect the latter.

cinehead
03-18-2008, 03:41 PM
Okay, maybe I've been watching this show for too long and going a bit nuts. Is it possible that there is a camera at the gravestone/memorial for Jin that would allow Sun to communicate with him back on the island?

They had all those hidden cameras all over this island, spying on everyone. I know it's far-fetched, but it might explain Hurley saying, "let's go see him."

wasson
03-18-2008, 04:09 PM
Jin? He has a grave in Korea, so maybe he gets killed after he's rescued.

Maybe he was the one in the coffin at the end of last season. He goes to America on some business, perhaps looking for a house or something, he gets killed, Sun is too pregnant to fly, and the body is sent home for burial.
His tombstone said he died Sept. 22, 2004, the day of the crash. So that seems unlikely.

Tyrrell McAllister
03-18-2008, 05:26 PM
Okay, maybe I've been watching this show for too long and going a bit nuts. Is it possible that there is a camera at the gravestone/memorial for Jin that would allow Sun to communicate with him back on the island?

They had all those hidden cameras all over this island, spying on everyone. I know it's far-fetched, but it might explain Hurley saying, "let's go see him."

Heh. That's so crazy, it just might be right :).

Scubaqueen
03-19-2008, 03:38 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they state this was the case? The plane was too deep in the trench and it would be too difficult to actually recover the bodies. I think this was made clear when the news footage was shown.

yes to all. an ROV would be the only way a search team could even attempt to make a body count (which reminds me. no way in hell would pictures of ANY BODIES be shown on television like that, but i digress. and this is lost, after all).

i don't recall if they said how deep the trench was, but i agree it was way beyond the reach of even technical divers on special mix (calling scubaben for better info. i'm just a warm water rec diver). and, there is not no way not no how those bodies could be recovered, which prevents any cursory examinations - let alone autopsies. we don't have that kind of applicable technology for a recovery that large. think kursk, folks.

my money's on a dual timeline as already WAG'd by someone up-thread. that is 815, just not our 815. ;)

Omniscient
03-19-2008, 03:41 PM
my money's on a dual timeline as already WAG'd by someone up-thread. that is 815, just not our 815. ;)

If that were the case why would the pilot be a fake, as confirmed by Frank?

Astroboy14
03-19-2008, 03:46 PM
...but i agree it was way beyond the reach of even technical divers on special mix ...

Bet they could for about 20 minutes! ;)

Scubaqueen
03-19-2008, 03:49 PM
If that were the case why would the pilot be a fake, as confirmed by Frank?

chaos theory! :D

Wile E
03-19-2008, 03:57 PM
Okay, maybe I've been watching this show for too long and going a bit nuts. Is it possible that there is a camera at the gravestone/memorial for Jin that would allow Sun to communicate with him back on the island?

They had all those hidden cameras all over this island, spying on everyone. I know it's far-fetched, but it might explain Hurley saying, "let's go see him."

I had the same thoughts, I just didn't post them because I didn't want people to tell me I was crazy. :p You're not alone.

UncleRojelio
03-19-2008, 04:01 PM
Bet they could for about 20 minutes! ;)
Just once though.

Tyrrell McAllister
03-19-2008, 05:32 PM
Just once though.
That would be unprecedented, wouldn't it?

SenorBeef
03-19-2008, 05:44 PM
It was '06 in our time when Jack was shown the video of the '04 series, was it not?

He means the tape that Ben showed Locke in a recent episode - it was labelled Red Sox, which Ben said he'd taped over.


All this discussion about the count of the corpses is moot. The plane crashed into the middle of the ocean - I'm guessing deep trenches aren't right next to islands but I may be wrong on that. The finding of any survivors after a mid-ocean crash after at least several weeks is completely implausible - it would have to blow the conspiracy to fake the wreck wide open. Any squabbling about the details of the body count is over minor, irrelevant details - the existance of the fake wreck and the Oceanic 6 can't plausibly be reconciled.

Omniscient
03-19-2008, 06:22 PM
All this discussion about the count of the corpses is moot. The plane crashed into the middle of the ocean - I'm guessing deep trenches aren't right next to islands but I may be wrong on that.

Completely wrong. The Marianas Islands and the Marianas Trench are part of the same tectonic action and are literally right on top of each other. In the Pacific every deep trench is associated with an archipelago.

The finding of any survivors after a mid-ocean crash after at least several weeks is completely implausible - it would have to blow the conspiracy to fake the wreck wide open. Any squabbling about the details of the body count is over minor, irrelevant details - the existance of the fake wreck and the Oceanic 6 can't plausibly be reconciled.
Totally disagree. So long as the Oceanic Six keep their mouths shut about The Island, which they obviously are doing, the rescuers could easily report that they were picked up anywhere in order to gibe with the cover story that is concocted.

Diceman
03-19-2008, 09:29 PM
But why are they after him? Are they after him in order to punish him for his wickedness ... or to recruit him as an ally? I suspect the latter.
My theory is that their main objective is Jacob, and capturing Ben is simply a preliminary step to contacting Jacob. Why else would they bring Miles along? It certainly wasn't for his charming personality. It's because he can talk to spirits.

Regarding Miles, I'm wondering if maybe he's connected to Sun's father, Mr. Paik. The amount of money he wants from Ben is oddly specific (as Ben himself pointed out) which makes me think that he, or his family, is in debt and needs that amount of money to bail themselves out. Maybe his family and Mr. Paik were engaged in some sort of illegal financial transaction (manipulating the stock market, perhaps) and the watch that Jin was delivering contained information that was crucial to pulling off the scam. Because the watch was never delivered, the scam failed, and Mr. Paik lost millions of dollars. 3.2 million dollars, to be exact, and he wants Miles' family to pay him back. Or Else :eek: The Hanso Foundation, thru Matthew Abbadon, has offered to pay Miles $3.2MM in exchange for his services, but Miles isn't picky about where the money comes from, so if Ben will give it to him then it's all good in his book.

Smid
03-20-2008, 06:11 AM
Yes, but it's clear that the other flashwards are at different times. Nothing special about that one episode, and although time does appear to move differently on and off Island, there seems to have been only about 1 day difference so far, as was pointed out earlier.

Someone pointed out a while back that the "flashforwards" seem to be moving "backwards", ie: the end of Season 3 has the latest flashfoward, and they have all been sequentially earlier since, moving back towards the event of leaving the island.

The flashforwards refer to events such as Jack saying he thinks he grow a beard, Hurley being insane then being sane (was it mentioned what the trigger was for this BTW?) and such things.

I got the impression the "latest in time" flashback was circa 2007, ie: 3 years later (I'm not sure if its ever been mentioned though), though I'm not really sure why. However, I seem to be getting the impression that the timeline is weird but possibly for no reason, or possibly because the times of the flashforwards have confused me...

Merijeek
03-20-2008, 07:40 AM
All this discussion about the count of the corpses is moot. The plane crashed into the middle of the ocean - I'm guessing deep trenches aren't right next to islands but I may be wrong on that. The finding of any survivors after a mid-ocean crash after at least several weeks is completely implausible - it would have to blow the conspiracy to fake the wreck wide open. Any squabbling about the details of the body count is over minor, irrelevant details - the existance of the fake wreck and the Oceanic 6 can't plausibly be reconciled.

Jay-zuz Christ, THANK YOU.

-Joe

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