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Shirley Ujest
04-08-2008, 12:27 PM
REally, the title says it all.

WordMan
04-08-2008, 12:37 PM
I don't know what context you are looking at, but two come to mind:

- You Just Don't Understand - by Deborah Tannen. Discusses the communication patterns of men and women and how you can talk with folks who communicate very differently - and with different priorities - than you.

- Getting to Yes - By William Ury and a few others. Excellent, short book about how to negotiate effectively.

now if you are sincerely trying to figure out how to argue - another approach would be to frame your challenge as how to debate - and that involves logic, rhetoric and other classical disciplines - back in the day, those Greeks and Romans placed a high premium on knowing how to engage in debates - and win them. I am not sure of a definitive book in this area that is written in a modern voice and that is easy to digest and use...

Does that help?

SmartAleq
04-08-2008, 12:50 PM
If you're talking about modern style arguing and how to avoid common pitfalls and traps, I heartily recommend Suzette Haden Elgin's The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735200890/sfwa-20) and its associated sequels. Since "argument" as used in modern context often carries connotations of bullying and abuse, I find her techniques on defusing those kinds of tactics quite useful. If, on the other hand, you're looking for advice formal rhetoric and logic I can't help ya, Sundance!

Labtrash
04-08-2008, 12:55 PM
Obligatory link to The argument sketch. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY)

I know you wanted a book, but, you know...

II Gyan II
04-08-2008, 01:27 PM
The best (http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/).








:D

SiXSwordS
04-08-2008, 01:36 PM
The best (http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/).


While I abhor the method, I do agree with the content.

Schopenhauer uses an almost tongue-in-cheek style, but some of his points are spot on. There is a bit of a Machiavellian air to his writing, but when it comes to slugging it out in the pits, anything goes and being aware of what types of sand will be thrown in your eyes and how to deal with a swift kick to the crotch is a lot better than being able to trot out some Latin maxim that vaguely indicates that your opponent may have inadvertently mislabeled one of their premises.

iamthewalrus(:3=
04-08-2008, 08:13 PM
No.

lizardling
04-08-2008, 08:22 PM
Seconding the 'Getting to Yes' book. Scads of PMs here swear by it, and it's required reading in some areas of the company.

I have a copy on loan from the internal library, so I'll see what it says.

Meeko
04-08-2008, 11:44 PM
I once heard the title "Verbal Judo".

Not exactly sure if thats what you want. I've never read it, but you can't argue with the title.

youredd
04-09-2008, 01:11 AM
Maybe you can look at How to Argue & Win Every Time (http://www.dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?deal_id=95767&ru=290), it's on sale online

Shirley Ujest
04-09-2008, 08:02 AM
I'm not looking to kick the emotional crap out of someone in ' verbal fight', which isn't me at all. I am more of a hippie-buddhist-zen like person and want to reach an mutually agreeable point and have left the sorched earth method of WTF ARE YOU SO FARKING BLIND behind me forever. ( prozac and maturity ....)

I'm looking to have a mental checklist of things I need to have in order to have an intelligent discussion before I freaking loose steam on my side of the debate/discussion.


I'm also looking how to hoist my own petard and learn how to deal with confrontation. I'm no milk and water miss and if someone brings it to the table, I can take it and give some back and stand my ground and understand boundaries and etiquette. ( It is all about Boundaries and Etiquette, I have learned. Ranting and Raving at the Other Person just causes them to either rant and rave back or just shut down and you are silently declared a Nutjob.

However, if I have an issue that I want to be addressed, I am spineless. Not earth shattering stuff like, " OMFG you raped my baby, kicked my dog and stole my bible!!!1111!" It is the daily little things ( telling a wishy washy boss who is bi-polar and prone to bursting into tears at any confrontation.) pretty much anything and makes horrid excuses for the running her dept. into the ground. She's 10 years older than me and I am the adult of the two. I want to keep my dignity when I really wish I could just give her a dripline of meds to keep her on an even keel and then jettison her off to another store where her reign of ineptitude can destroy their department.)

I've learned non-confrontation from my familial unit (mine and his) and realize that this has to change.

I'm not sure if I am looking for a How to Argue book or how to negotiate book. I just want to learn to bring it to the table on my own and not lose my spine.

Hope this helps.

WordMan
04-09-2008, 08:12 AM
Hmm - to me, that doesn't feel like an argument - it feels like you want to "confront" - however gently - someone with tough news. What I think I am reading is that you are assuming that it won't go well and they will come back at you - and at that point, you want to have your argumental ducks in a row.

Do I get it?

If I don't - sorry. If I do, then I would argue (heh) that you would be better off doing two things:

- Looking for and reading books more about telling tough news - I dunno, maybe a book on codependency, or substance abuse or other issues that often require tough news to be told, and how to deal with the immediate after-effects.

- when a person comes back defensively, if you try to take each of their points on one-by-one - iow, engage in an argument - then they have fundamentally gotten you off your central point, which is that they have an issue to address. If my read on this is close, then you actually may be doing yourself and the person a real disservice by focusing on your argument skills in this case...your objective is to make it clear that they need to understand how others are seeing them and that their behavior is not effective/acceptable...

Thinking out loud here...

sandra_nz
04-09-2008, 08:17 AM
It's probably out of print now, but easily obtainable second-hand. The book is called "Don't Say Yes When You Want To Say No!"

It's basically about being assertive, which I suspect is what you are after.

Zeldar
04-09-2008, 08:21 AM
This may not be close to what you're after, but a keyword in the title (or the description of the contents) would be assertion. That in contrast to aggression or other heavier words.

Once you're able to own your feelings and opinions to the point that you feel the right to express them in assertive terms, without attacking those of others, you can gain the detachment I sense you are after. Being heard and respected is a nice goal, and that may be a by-product of having expressed yourself in honest ways. Winning arguments can't be the main goal and getting converts to your beliefs and opinions shouldn't be a priority. If those things come, okay; if not, and you've had your say, okay, too.

Try searches with "assertive" or "assertion" and read the blurbs. Maybe one will get you where you want to be.

Zeldar
04-09-2008, 08:22 AM
It's probably out of print now, but easily obtainable second-hand. The book is called "Don't Say Yes When You Want To Say No!"

It's basically about being assertive, which I suspect is what you are after.

Posted while I was typing and I didn't Preview. Neat simulpost!

Shirley Ujest
04-09-2008, 08:34 AM
Hmm - to me, that doesn't feel like an argument - it feels like you want to "confront" - however gently - someone with tough news. What I think I am reading is that you are assuming that it won't go well and they will come back at you - and at that point, you want to have your argumental ducks in a row.

Do I get it?


Yes!

Assertive.

Thanks!

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