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View Full Version : What temperature is "ice cold" ?


SeanArenas
04-02-2009, 07:07 PM
At work is a Coke machine. By the coin slot is a lil LED screen that says ICE COLD then COCA COLA then TEMP 59F

Does 59F count as ICE COLD?

Smeghead
04-02-2009, 07:09 PM
I doubt there's any legal standard - it's just a meaningless marketing phrase.

dracoi
04-02-2009, 07:12 PM
The temp readings I've seen on soda machines are measuring the outside air, not the inside. The idea, I think, is that reminding people when it's hot encourages them to buy more soda.

But I don't think ice cold has any legal meaning either. 32 is the freezing point for water, but most refrigerated beverages are at 40 or so and still called ice cold.

Xema
04-02-2009, 07:32 PM
... it's just a meaningless marketing phrase.
Agreed. The ballpark cry of "Get yer ICE COLD beer here!" translates to "We can't rule out the possibility that this beer is slightly below ambient temperature."

SeanArenas
04-02-2009, 07:43 PM
The temp readings I've seen on soda machines are measuring the outside air, not the inside. The idea, I think, is that reminding people when it's hot encourages them to buy more soda. There's no way it's 59F in that room. Maybe 79F.

KneadToKnow
04-02-2009, 07:50 PM
59K, on the other hand, would be ice-of-hell cold.

Harmonious Discord
04-02-2009, 08:02 PM
Ice cold soda refers to the temperature you'd experience if you poured the soda from a can into a glass full of ice. That would give you soda about half way between the room temperature of soda and ice.

Exapno Mapcase
04-02-2009, 08:35 PM
This is called puffery, legally. It's like claiming you sell "the world's greatest hamburger." You aren't required to prove it.

Chronos
04-02-2009, 08:43 PM
I don't know about that... It's not possible to objectively measure the greatness of a hamburger, but it is possible to objectively measure how cold ice is.

HongKongFooey
04-02-2009, 08:47 PM
I don't know about that... It's not possible to objectively measure the greatness of a hamburger, but it is possible to objectively measure how cold ice is.But when they say ice cold do they mean the soda is as cold as ice or as cold as soda that has ice cubes in the drink? How many ice cubes?

orcenio
04-02-2009, 09:06 PM
They couldn't sell pop that was really ice cold cus... It would be frozen! (or half frozen whatever...) Who wants to lick a frozen coke?

GreasyJack
04-02-2009, 09:15 PM
They couldn't sell pop that was really ice cold cus... It would be frozen! (or half frozen whatever...) Who wants to lick a frozen coke?

I think non-diet sodas freeze a few degrees below 32F, so you could have a Coke which was cold as ice, but still a liquid. It would probably be a little distressing to drink, though.

I had a half keg of beer out in my unheated garage all winter. It seemed to freeze at around 20 degrees. I was going to use it to refute a local convenience store's claim of having the "coldest beer in town!".

Strinka
04-02-2009, 09:25 PM
They couldn't sell pop that was really ice cold cus... It would be frozen! (or half frozen whatever...) Who wants to lick a frozen coke?

Soda isn't pure water, so it's freezing point is lowered, like salt water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression

WarmNPrickly
04-02-2009, 09:46 PM
Ice cold soda refers to the temperature you'd experience if you poured the soda from a can into a glass full of ice. That would give you soda about half way between the room temperature of soda and ice.


If you don't melt all of the ice as you pour your soda in, it should be darn near 32F. The Heat of Fusion should be enough to suck any excess heat out of the soda. If it isn't enough, then more ice will melt. A 50/50 mix of water and ice at equilibrium is at the freezing point, not halfway between freezing and room temperature.

CookingWithGas
04-02-2009, 10:28 PM
Ice cold soda refers to the temperature you'd experience if you poured the soda from a can into a glass full of ice. I would say it's the temperature once it reaches equilibrium sitting in a cooler full of ice. Which is colder than what you get pouring into a warm soda into a glass of ice, but not below freezing.

I like my Nuka Cola ice cold ;)

Sunspace
04-02-2009, 10:33 PM
The real question is, which ice-cold? Can't water be solid under high pressure at high temperatures?

WarmNPrickly
04-02-2009, 10:51 PM
I would say it's the temperature once it reaches equilibrium sitting in a cooler full of ice. Which is colder than what you get pouring into a warm soda into a glass of ice, but not below freezing.

At equilibrium, in a cooler full of ice and water, the temperature is exactly 32F. If you have ice in the container, then it is at 32F assuming equilibrium. If you pour water into a glass of ice and mix it up well, then that water is at 32F assuming there is still ice in the glass.

dracoi
04-03-2009, 12:23 AM
I think non-diet sodas freeze a few degrees below 32F, so you could have a Coke which was cold as ice, but still a liquid. It would probably be a little distressing to drink, though.

I had a half keg of beer out in my unheated garage all winter. It seemed to freeze at around 20 degrees. I was going to use it to refute a local convenience store's claim of having the "coldest beer in town!".

Distressing? Root beer in particular is at its best when its just cold enough to form a little slush in the top of the can.

Frozen beer, on the other hand, is dangerous. The alcohol doesn't freeze, so the remaining liquid is pretty darn strong.

SeanArenas
04-03-2009, 01:51 AM
Personally, I <3 soda that is soooooo cold that it's slushy on top. When you're pouring it from the can/bottle into the cup, it comes out slower. That's noms.

But ice cold should at least make me reminiscent of it being iced. 59F is not icy.

ZipperJJ
04-03-2009, 10:12 AM
According to Outkast, ice cold is cooler than being cool.

sich_hinaufwinden
04-03-2009, 11:08 AM
The real question is, which ice-cold? Can't water be solid under high pressure at high temperatures?

Furthermore, even at standard pressure, water is solid at a wide range of temps - from absolute zero up to its melting point. But for some reason everyone seems to be equating the temp of ice with its melting point.

Yes I understand the soda will heat the ice from its original temp up to 32F and stay at that equilibrium temp until all the ice has melted. But my point is that the ice itself most likely started out below 32F.

orcenio
04-03-2009, 11:59 AM
Soda isn't pure water, so it's freezing point is lowered, like salt water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression
I think non-diet sodas freeze a few degrees below 32F, so you could have a Coke which was cold as ice, but still a liquid. It would probably be a little distressing to drink, though.

I had a half keg of beer out in my unheated garage all winter. It seemed to freeze at around 20 degrees. I was going to use it to refute a local convenience store's claim of having the "coldest beer in town!".

This what I get for sleeping through my class on thermodynamics. But in my defence I always drink the non-sugar stuff.

And BTW water freezes at 0 degrees fools, and what the hell is 32F. That's crazy talk. You be crazy...

Magiver
04-03-2009, 12:19 PM
They couldn't sell pop that was really ice cold cus... It would be frozen! (or half frozen whatever...) Who wants to lick a frozen coke? OOOO OOOO me. I have a 2 liter in the freezer as we speak. I love it when it starts to slush up.

Chronos
04-03-2009, 05:14 PM
Furthermore, even at standard pressure, water is solid at a wide range of temps - from absolute zero up to its melting point. But for some reason everyone seems to be equating the temp of ice with its melting point.I would happily accept the claim that a can of pop at 2.7 Kelvins is ice-cold. The point is, though, that there's no standard by which a can of pop above 273.15 Kelvins can be said to be ice-cold.

CC
04-03-2009, 05:27 PM
Ice cold soda refers to the temperature you'd experience if you poured the soda from a can into a glass full of ice. That would give you soda about half way between the room temperature of soda and ice.
Nah. How cold are the ice cubes? Since there's no standard, that's a nonsense definition. If you cooled ice to, say, -300 F, just for the sake of the discussion, and then put them into a container and poured coke over them, there's a chance the liquid would freeze on contact. Ice cold? Yep. And if the cubes had been +30 F, and you did the same, the coke would still be ice cold, by your definition, yes? Not gonna work. As has been pointed out, all the Dopers in the world can get all pedantic and technical about it - it's an advertising phrase with no definitive meaning.

Santo Rugger
04-03-2009, 05:36 PM
Nah. How cold are the ice cubes? Since there's no standard, that's a nonsense definition. If you cooled ice to, say, -300 F, just for the sake of the discussion, and then put them into a container and poured coke over them, there's a chance the liquid would freeze on contact. Ice cold? Yep. And if the cubes had been +30 F, and you did the same, the coke would still be ice cold, by your definition, yes? Not gonna work. As has been pointed out, all the Dopers in the world can get all pedantic and technical about it - it's an advertising phrase with no definitive meaning.You can't get ice cubes to -300F, and then pour soda over them. Anywhere getting things that cold won't allow food or drink in their laboratory.

CC
04-03-2009, 05:40 PM
:smack: How silly of me for not realizing whatever the hell you meant by that.

Santo Rugger
04-03-2009, 05:43 PM
I meant that, in order to achieve temperatures much lower than -300F, you're going to have to do it in a controlled environment, which will probably be in a facility big enough to have a safety program that has all sorts of rules. One of the rules will be no food or drink in the lab. Blame it on all the safety training I've been going to for the past month. Although, I retract my edit, I'm not sure you can get ice down to -300F with liquid nitrogen. I forgot about the Leidenfrost effect, which should have been fresh in my mind since I had cryogenic fluids training last week. :smack:

Sunspace
04-03-2009, 05:44 PM
I would happily accept the claim that a can of pop at 2.7 Kelvins is ice-cold. The point is, though, that there's no standard by which a can of pop above 273.15 Kelvins can be said to be ice-cold.Sure there is. It just needs to be at high pressure. :)

CC
04-03-2009, 06:31 PM
Santo, forget the so-called practical reasons that you couldn't do my clearly hypothetical event in a lab because of the fact that no one would let you bring food into a lab. The point was that ice - and I don't know why water ice couldn't be made -300 degrees F. somehow - has no particular temperature, aside from being colder than 32F. That means that a mixture of ice and coke can have any number of possible temperatures, depending on the temperature of the coke and the temperature of the ice. And the concept of "ice cold" cannot rest on the temperature of an ice/coke mixture because there is no single temperature of that nature. It was a model, an example, to help explain my idea. I wasn't actually suggesting that we try it. Hell, what if I forgot the address of the lab in the first place. Then, for sure, we couldn't do it.

Fubaya
04-03-2009, 06:38 PM
Let's check a renowned reference here, an authority on words and their meaning, the Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ice-cold). According to them, the meaning of the term "Ice-cold" is....

"extremely cold."

Welp, there ya have it.

SeanArenas
04-04-2009, 11:44 AM
Santo, The point was that ice - and I don't know why water ice couldn't be made -300 degrees F. somehow - has no particular temperature, aside from being colder than 32F. That means that a mixture of ice and coke can have any number of possible temperatures, depending on the temperature of the coke and the temperature of the ice. And the concept of "ice cold" cannot rest on the temperature of an ice/coke mixture because there is no single temperature of that nature.I'm glad you clarified this. There is no single temperature of that nature, but there is a range of temperature of that nature.

If we consider that the starting temperature of the Coke is not extreme (such as over 90 degrees) and that the quantity of the ice in the container is significant to reach a point of temperature equilibrium with the soda before all of the ice melts, we can define a range of temperatures for the soda. It can be x to y. Let's say we're talking Fahrenheit here, x could be negative infinity, and y could be 33. I don't know what the equilibrium temperature for a liquid mixed with ice is, but water and ice doesn't tend to freeze unless the surrounding air temp is around the freezing temperature. So ... I'm guessing at 33, correct the number but I bet it's close.

So the range of temperatures could be said to be below 33. It's not "any" number, we can say it's a huge, huge, huge range ... it's even slightly more than 50% of the possible range of temperatures expressable on some scales, but it's not all of the numbers.

You can press a button of Ice Cold Coke and get it at -300 degrees. You can get it at -1 degrees. You can get it at +10 or +31 or even +33. But you can't get Ice Cold Coke at +100 or +1,000 degrees - that would meet no one's determination of an Ice Cold Drink.

Santo Rugger
04-04-2009, 12:13 PM
Santo, forget the so-called practical reasons that you couldn't do my clearly hypothetical event in a lab because of the fact that no one would let you bring food into a lab...Yeah, let's do that. I was just being silly.

The point was that ice - and I don't know why water ice couldn't be made -300 degrees F. somehow - has no particular temperature, aside from being colder than 32F.This is true.That means that a mixture of ice and coke can have any number of possible temperatures, depending on the temperature of the coke and the temperature of the ice.This is not true. Using water to simplify the numbers, and assuming ambient pressure, if the mixture is colder than 32, the water will freeze. If it's warmer than 32, the ice will melt. When the ambient temperature is higher than 32, the system will not reach equilibrium until all the ice melts. Until then, the water will remain at 32.And the concept of "ice cold" cannot rest on the temperature of an ice/coke mixture because there is no single temperature of that nature.Sure there is, as explained above. With any given mixture, at ambient pressure, there's only one temperature a given two phase mixture can be at.

Santo Rugger
04-04-2009, 12:17 PM
I'm glad you clarified this. There is no single temperature of that nature, but there is a range of temperature of that nature.

If we consider that the starting temperature of the Coke is not extreme (such as over 90 degrees) and that the quantity of the ice in the container is significant to reach a point of temperature equilibrium with the soda before all of the ice melts, we can define a range of temperatures for the soda. It can be x to y. Let's say we're talking Fahrenheit here, x could be negative infinity, and y could be 33. I don't know what the equilibrium temperature for a liquid mixed with ice is, but water and ice doesn't tend to freeze unless the surrounding air temp is around the freezing temperature. So ... I'm guessing at 33, correct the number but I bet it's close.

So the range of temperatures could be said to be below 33. It's not "any" number, we can say it's a huge, huge, huge range ... it's even slightly more than 50% of the possible range of temperatures expressable on some scales, but it's not all of the numbers.

You can press a button of Ice Cold Coke and get it at -300 degrees. You can get it at -1 degrees. You can get it at +10 or +31 or even +33. But you can't get Ice Cold Coke at +100 or +1,000 degrees - that would meet no one's determination of an Ice Cold Drink.

This is just wrong. For starters, Fahrenheit doesn't go to negative infinity, it stops at -460. The temperature of the surrounding air is irrelevant, if a liquid is colder than it's melting point, it will freeze. Without changing the pressure, you can't get water below 32F.

Sunspace
04-04-2009, 12:42 PM
Without changing the pressure, you can't get water below 32F.And if you do change the pressure, you can get ice at 1000K. Here's an article describing the phase diagram of water (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html). Ice X appears to be stable at temperatures of 1000K (1340F, 726.6C) at a pressure approaching 100 gigapascals (14.5 million PSI). So you can have your "ice-cold" coke at a nice cherry-red temperature, as long as it's in a suitably-pressurized can.

Just be careful opening it.

SeanArenas
04-04-2009, 12:52 PM
This is just wrong. For starters, Fahrenheit doesn't go to negative infinity, it stops at -460. The temperature of the surrounding air is irrelevant, if a liquid is colder than it's melting point, it will freeze. Without changing the pressure, you can't get water below 32F.OK then Ice Cold Coke could mean -460 to +33. That's still a huge range of numbers. And +59F doesn't seem to be part of them.

Rigamarole
04-04-2009, 05:47 PM
59K, on the other hand, would be ice-of-hell cold.

Only on the day that hell freezes over.

Crafter_Man
04-04-2009, 06:18 PM
Without changing the pressure, you can't get water below 32F.
Ever heard of supercooling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling)? Under the right circumstances, water (at standard pressure) can remain liquid down to -42 C.

The Great Philosopher
04-04-2009, 06:38 PM
This is called puffery, legally. It's like claiming you sell "the world's greatest hamburger." You aren't required to prove it.

I thought advertisers weren't allowed to call their product 'the greatest in the world' without some form of justification? There's a marketing campaign by Carlsberg beer where the slogan is, 'Probably the best beer in the world'. I was told they chose that slogan for the exact reason that they're not allowed to state 'the best beer in the world' as a factual claim.

SeanArenas
04-04-2009, 09:25 PM
I thought advertisers weren't allowed to call their product 'the greatest in the world' without some form of justification? There's a marketing campaign by Carlsberg beer where the slogan is, 'Probably the best beer in the world'. I was told they chose that slogan for the exact reason that they're not allowed to state 'the best beer in the world' as a factual claim.Mostly they say, "Best in its class!" Where the class is very closely defined as 3 car models. Each of the other two is probably also in another class where they can claim to be the best...

Santo Rugger
04-04-2009, 09:37 PM
OK then Ice Cold Coke could mean -460 to +33. That's still a huge range of numbers. And +59F doesn't seem to be part of them.No, because the coke will be frozen 99.9% of the temperatures in that range.Ever heard of supercooling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling)? Under the right circumstances, water (at standard pressure) can remain liquid down to -42 C.Yes, I have. But that, similar to the phenomenon of getting water above boiling in a microwave and pouring cocoa in, requires the lack of nucleation points. When we open a soda and it instantly freezes, it's not directly because we're changing the pressure, it's because we're allowing the CO2 to come out of solution, introducing said nucleation points for the ice crystals to start forming on.


And if you do change the pressure, you can get ice at 1000K. Here's an article describing the phase diagram of water (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html). Ice X appears to be stable at temperatures of 1000K (1340F, 726.6C) at a pressure approaching 100 gigapascals (14.5 million PSI). So you can have your "ice-cold" coke at a nice cherry-red temperature, as long as it's in a suitably-pressurized can.

Just be careful opening it.Well, of course. But practically, nobody's going to be drinking soda much above 15psia.

Chronos
04-05-2009, 12:10 AM
Sure, you can have some phase or other of ice at 1000K, but that's not ice-cold, that's ice-pressed. If I ask what the freezing point of water is, implicit in my question is that all other parameters other than temperature are at their standard values.

Beware of Doug
04-05-2009, 01:18 AM
Every freezer I've ever had that was worth a damn operated a few degrees either side of 0F. That, to me, is "ice cold."

However, beverages (vodka excepted) are not palatable chilled to 0F. So I would define "ice cold" for a beverage as the temperature of said beverage when iced, or chilled, to taste.

Sam Stone
04-05-2009, 04:26 AM
You know something is as cold as ice if it's willing to sacrifice your love.

WarmNPrickly
04-05-2009, 09:14 AM
Bravo Sam.

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