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YogSothoth
11-13-2010, 01:19 PM
I want to try to make this for Thanksgiving, any advice?

My biggest problem with baking is that I usually mess up on the time and/or temperature. Sometimes the things I've made are still pretty raw in the middle, despite the time being what it says in the receipe. I've had that happen a few times and don't want it to happen to this

While looking up receipes online, I started wondering about the puff pastry that you wrap the beef in. Wouldn't cooking the beef for long enough and at a temperature that's hot enough, totally burn the puff pastry? Should I start out by covering it with aluminum foil?

A lot of receipes also call for the beef to be brushed with some mustard. I've personally never had any kind of steak with mustard on it, so I'm afraid of how it would taste. Then again, I once made meat loaf with the recommended applesauce mixed in it and didn't taste it at all, so maybe the mustard won't be overpowering. I have Dijon mustard, and I'm planning on using very little of it on the outside. Does the beef really get all mustard-y?

Lastly, I don't have access to a butcher. I'm simply going to get the meat from the market. That means I have less choices. Is there a typical recommended cut of beef I should use? Does it really matter that much? I mean, could I make it with ground beef and have it come out looking and tasting like a meat loaf? Or would that totally ruin it?

don't ask
11-13-2010, 01:23 PM
You have to understand that your traditional Beef Wellington produces VERY, VERY rare beef. Unless you are cooking for people who love to eat warm, barely cooked meat, it is a really crap dish.

Cat Whisperer
11-13-2010, 01:24 PM
You have to understand that your traditional Beef Wellington produces VERY, VERY rare beef. Unless you are cooking for people who love to eat warm, barely cooked meat, it is a really crap dish.
I'm scared to ever try Beef Wellington after seeing Chef Ramsay throw screaming fits over it a hundred times.

Leiko
11-13-2010, 01:25 PM
Tenderloin is traditional; if you make individual Wellingtons it's more work but the meat is more likely to get cooked enough for those who don't love very rare meat to eat it.

There's supposed to be duxelles and perhaps even pate for a true Wellington.

don't ask
11-13-2010, 01:28 PM
If you make individual ones you can end up with a good product. This (http://cookingfortwo.about.com/od/beef/r/beefwellington.htm) is pretty much what works for me.

DonLogan
11-13-2010, 01:29 PM
I want to try to make this for Thanksgiving, any advice?

My biggest problem with baking is that I usually mess up on the time and/or temperature. Sometimes the things I've made are still pretty raw in the middle, despite the time being what it says in the receipe. I've had that happen a few times and don't want it to happen to this

While looking up receipes online, I started wondering about the puff pastry that you wrap the beef in. Wouldn't cooking the beef for long enough and at a temperature that's hot enough, totally burn the puff pastry? Should I start out by covering it with aluminum foil?

A lot of receipes also call for the beef to be brushed with some mustard. I've personally never had any kind of steak with mustard on it, so I'm afraid of how it would taste. Then again, I once made meat loaf with the recommended applesauce mixed in it and didn't taste it at all, so maybe the mustard won't be overpowering. I have Dijon mustard, and I'm planning on using very little of it on the outside. Does the beef really get all mustard-y?

Lastly, I don't have access to a butcher. I'm simply going to get the meat from the market. That means I have less choices. Is there a typical recommended cut of beef I should use? Does it really matter that much? I mean, could I make it with ground beef and have it come out looking and tasting like a meat loaf? Or would that totally ruin it?


If you're serious, make one according to the actual recipe sometime next summer and see how it goes.

If you want to make meatloaf wrapped in Pillsbury Crescent Roll dough, have at it.

YogSothoth
11-13-2010, 01:32 PM
I like rare beef, but my family generally doesn't. That's why I'm concerened about making it.

What I have planned now is a sort of dumbed down version. I read about the mustard, the puff pastry, and pate, and the beef, but I'm going to use simpler items to make it. The pate's going to be pureed regular button mushrooms and white onions. I'll cover the beef with that once I brush on the mustard.

As far as the puff pastry, I'm going to use those Pillsbury croissant rolls that you can put in the oven and bake. Those things cook pretty fast, so that's why I'm afraid the beef is going to come out too raw. Should I use a high temp (450-500) with the foil on or a lower temp 375-425 with the foil off? I want it to cook thoroughly, I can eat raw beef some other time.

Oh, and I'm also planning on making some today in advance, just to test out the receipe and see if it tastes good. I'm hoping the experimenting will pay off. So gimme your suggestions, I need the meat to be the #1 priority, I can take away or add the mustard/pate as necessary

IvoryTowerDenizen
11-13-2010, 01:41 PM
Puff pastry is available at most major grocery stores. It is a really different beast than crescent rolls, and easy to use. The txture of the finished product is quite different I guess I don't quite get the motivation to so completely change a recipe when many of the ingredients aren't that hard to come by.

I hope your recipe comes out ok, but someday you may want to follow an actual beef Wellington recipe and see how that works for you.

don't ask
11-13-2010, 01:42 PM
..

Isn't your username trolling? I'm scared to post in the same threads as you. It's all this stuff you're not saying. Insinnuendos.

Unless of course your real name is Don Logan.

DonLogan
11-13-2010, 01:50 PM
Isn't your username trolling? I'm scared to post in the same threads as you. It's all this stuff you're not saying. Insinnuendos.

Unless of course your real name is Don Logan.

I want to make Pommes Anna, can I use apples instead of potatoes, and how does it come out if I make it in the microwave, and use raspberry jelly instead of mustard and don't time it?

YogSothoth
11-13-2010, 02:03 PM
I want to make Pommes Anna, can I use apples instead of potatoes, and how does it come out if I make it in the microwave, and use raspberry jelly instead of mustard and don't time it?

What are you, some kind of food snob? :dubious:

I'm making changes to the receipe because I know my tastes better than you do, or whoever came up with these receipes. If I'm generally not enamored of mustard with beef, then I'm going to use less of it, or not at all. Besides, I didn't ask wtf was wrong with my receipe, I asked if it can be made using the changes and taste generally the same, or come out not raw. And make it next summer? What, is that the season for cows or something? I said I'm making it for Thanksgiving, as in about 10 days from now since you obviously can't read, and yes I'm serious, but I'm not going to follow some arcane rules on cooking if I have had success bending them. If you don't have something constructive to say, then go pit my house rules receipe and throw your shit all over that.

Thanks for all those with useful things to say though, I appreciate it. I'll look for the puff pastry, but I've never been able to find it. I think I know how it tastes, so since it's all bread anyways, I prefer the croissant rolls. I just want to know if puff pastry would be smarter to use than the rolls because maybe it will be less likely to burn? What kind of oven temperature are am I looking at?

don't ask
11-13-2010, 02:05 PM
I want to make Pommes Anna, can I use apples instead of potatoes, and how does it come out if I make it in the microwave, and use raspberry jelly instead of mustard and don't time it?

Microwave would fuck it up but otherwise it would work like a charm. Though I'd go for cranberries.

DonLogan
11-13-2010, 02:22 PM
What are you, some kind of food snob? :dubious:



What's for dessert, a plop of whipped cream with a squirt of Hershey's and you'll call it Baked Alaska?

jjimm
11-13-2010, 02:35 PM
I make it all the time. If your guests are wusses, precook the beef. Just 15 minutes I. A hot oven, or sear it in a pan. Even Ramsay does it. (http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/2538/beef-wellington) That's a really good recipe for it, by the way.

aruvqan
11-13-2010, 02:53 PM
If you make individual ones you can end up with a good product. This (http://cookingfortwo.about.com/od/beef/r/beefwellington.htm) is pretty much what works for me.

A sous vide would be perfect to help prep this - as a whole huge multiperson version.

SV it overnight or from the morning/requisite time to get it to the perfect internal temp. Pop it onto a scorchingly hot cast iron skillet to brown the outside, and then wrap per recipe. That way you don't have to mess about with a thermometer and it is one less detail to muck with.

Starting it sous vide to get the huge hunk o beast to temp would let you make it to a perfect med rare or even medium if that is how you roll. I know that some people have issues with proper bloody rare wellies. Heck, with a SV you could actually cook the interior to that nasty grey of well done without actually drying the whole tenderloin to leather. [where is the blarghy smiley?]

Cat Whisperer
11-13-2010, 03:03 PM
What are you, some kind of food snob? :dubious: <snip>
I'm gonna go with "yes."

Change up the recipe any way you want, and if you like it, great. Just don't blame the recipe if it doesn't turn out. :)

jjimm
11-13-2010, 03:04 PM
I'd argue if you use a sous vide you don't even need the aesthetic of browning, as the edges are going to be hidden by the pastry.

Diogenes the Cynic
11-13-2010, 03:24 PM
A sous vide would be perfect to help prep this - as a whole huge multiperson version.

SV it overnight or from the morning/requisite time to get it to the perfect internal temp. Pop it onto a scorchingly hot cast iron skillet to brown the outside, and then wrap per recipe. That way you don't have to mess about with a thermometer and it is one less detail to muck with.

Starting it sous vide to get the huge hunk o beast to temp would let you make it to a perfect med rare or even medium if that is how you roll. I know that some people have issues with proper bloody rare wellies. Heck, with a SV you could actually cook the interior to that nasty grey of well done without actually drying the whole tenderloin to leather. [where is the blarghy smiley?]
Most people don't have sous vide equipment sitting around in their kitchens. Those sous vide ovens and vaccum sealers are expensive (but, hey, if Yog's got the equipment, it's great advice).

My advice to the Yog is not to try Wellington without practice. It almost always turns out crappy on the first attempt, and it's not something that should be prepared for Philistines who can't appreciate rare beef anyway. Even if you're going to do a dumbed down, overcooked version, practice it first. Give it at least one or two trial runs. It's not the kind of thing you want to entertain with if you've never tried it before.

Skip the mustard, by the way, and get a tenderloin. The beef has to be tender. Don't try to use a pot roast or anything.

I also wouldn't use button mushrooms for the duxelle. Those have no flavor. At least use portabellas. Mince them up with garlic and shallots, saute in olive oil, salt and pepper, add a little bit of whatever wine or sherry you have around, reduce, slather on.

Athena
11-13-2010, 04:29 PM
I've made plenty of nice medium-rare Beef Wellingtons; the puff pastry doesn't cook so fast that you can't get to medium-rare, which is all you'd really want tenderloin to get to anyway.

The pate's going to be pureed regular button mushrooms and white onions.

That's the duxelles, not the pâté. Pâté (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A2t%C3%A9) for Beef Wellington is typically a fine-textured pâté de foie gras.

I'll look for the puff pastry, but I've never been able to find it. I think I know how it tastes, so since it's all bread anyways, I prefer the croissant rolls. I just want to know if puff pastry would be smarter to use than the rolls because maybe it will be less likely to burn? What kind of oven temperature are am I looking at?

Puff pastry is in the freezer section, and I've never seen a grocery store that doesn't have it - it's very common. If you don't see it, ask. Pepperidge Farm (http://www.puffpastry.com/products.aspx) is the typical brand. I've cooked it for 30 minutes without it burning, which is enough time to cook your average Beef Wellington to medium rare. I'm not sure how crescent rolls match up to that.

I'm making changes to the recipe because I know my tastes better than you do, or whoever came up with these recipes.

That's fine, but I think the issue that DonLogan (and me, though I'll try to be more polite :D) have is that Beef Wellington means something specific - a tenderloin, covered in pâté and duxelles, wrapped in puff pastry and baked. What you describe is not Beef Wellington. It might end up being delicious, but at best, it's a variation on Beef Wellington, not the thing itself.

freckafree
11-13-2010, 06:04 PM
Here's the "No Nightmare Beef Wellington (http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/-No-Nightmare-Beef-Wellington-243010)" recipe from Epicurious, wherein you pretty much cook everything separately and assemble it. It sure solves the problem of guests' preferences as to the doneness of the meat.

Terraplane
11-13-2010, 06:50 PM
What are you, some kind of food snob? :dubious:

I'm making changes to the receipe because I know my tastes better than you do, or whoever came up with these receipes. If I'm generally not enamored of mustard with beef, then I'm going to use less of it, or not at all. Besides, I didn't ask wtf was wrong with my receipe, I asked if it can be made using the changes and taste generally the same, or come out not raw. And make it next summer? What, is that the season for cows or something? I said I'm making it for Thanksgiving, as in about 10 days from now since you obviously can't read, and yes I'm serious, but I'm not going to follow some arcane rules on cooking if I have had success bending them. If you don't have something constructive to say, then go pit my house rules receipe and throw your shit all over that.

You are subbing out every single ingredient in the recipe with something else.

It's not going to taste generally the same, how could it?

YogSothoth
11-13-2010, 09:01 PM
I made it, and it turned out great.

I made 4 of them using 2 slightly different receipes. One had the puff pastry and the other used the Pillsbury croissant rolls. There was only like 1 brand of puff pastry in the whole store, tucked away at the bottom. No wonder I missed it all these years. And on the outside it said "2 sheets" but I had no idea how big one sheet was. I got lucky that it was enough to make 3

I took the adivce of jjimm and The Internet and cooked it a little in the pan before I baked it. I would say it turned out probably medium well, not medium rare. Still good though.

For 2 of them, I didn't put any mustard. Those tasted fine, though I wasn't completely offended by the mustard in the others. The funny thing was, I could smell the mustard, but couldn't really taste it.

The duxelles I made with white onion, shallots, button mushrooms, and portabello. In the end, I couldn't even taste it in the finished product. I knew it was there, I could feel the crunchiness of the onions, but I just couldn't really taste the mushrooms. Plus, it was a pain to make (and I made too much).

I'll stick with puff pastry next time. Not that the croissant dough turned out bad, but it cooked way too fast. Took about 8 mins for that thing to turn golden brown while the puff pastry was still raw and mostly white. I had to open up the oven and put a thick piece of foil over it to prevent it from burning. For consistencies' sake and longer cooking of the beef, I'm going to stick with the puff next time.

I was lucky I found the meat thermometer from last year's turkey otherwise I'd have no idea how long to cook it. I remember from my time working in a kitchen that meat should be at least 140 or 160, so that's what I did. I figured that since it was beef and filet mignon, I could err on the lower end of the temperature scale.

Even though this was merely a "test" dish, I think I'm going to use the same amount of ingredients once I make the real thing on Thanksgiving. I think most people use a long strip of beef when they cook it, but mine was bought in these little medallion shaped cuts. I like it that way better, everyone can have their own portion and they can take it anywhere they want to go.

Quick question for my next time though, what's the different between sirloin, top loin, loin tri tip, and top sirloin? The only place I found beef actually listed as "beef tenderloin" was that medallion of filet mignon sealed in the package. Could I use any of the others as a substitute?

IvoryTowerDenizen
11-13-2010, 09:10 PM
This link may be of help (http://www.foodsubs.com/MeatBeefLoin.html)

Also- if you google "Cook's illustrated beef" you get a great PDF explaining the major beef roasts and their uses. Link- CI chart (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:RLN-55iUO5wJ:www.cooksillustrated.com/images/document/howto/ND02_BeefRoasts.pdf+cooks+illustrated+beef&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiFQteOx8AMtJabdhHITjzbcQQt8jsb4vJq4pnZ9j5A3awQBfkHkEAxiRhXngNC00T1lhUpthXtUQFbgY87Uhav_l tAlHKtjMpMOtasbin0wvm42h5KnMrUxOsFAl5tayYrUuQ5&sig=AHIEtbTo8hP5r3iFm36d5kIyn8YziagtAA)

Roasts can vary tremendously in flavor, and most importantly, tenderness. Some roasts require hours of a slow braise, others, a quick trip at high heat. They are not all interchangeable, so I actually keep the CI PDF on my phone for help at the grocery store!

Athena
11-14-2010, 07:48 AM
Quick question for my next time though, what's the different between sirloin, top loin, loin tri tip, and top sirloin? The only place I found beef actually listed as "beef tenderloin" was that medallion of filet mignon sealed in the package. Could I use any of the others as a substitute?

IvoryTowerDenizen's links are helpful. But to directly answer your question - filet mignon is a specific part of a tenderloin. In practice filet and tenderloin can be interchanged.

Sirloin/top loin/loin tri tip/top sirloin - not as easy to substitute for tenderloin. They might have a bit more flavor, but are not as tender. I actually don't use most of those cuts at all. I'm either looking for tenderloin itself for the tenderness, served with a sauce or other flavorings like the Wellington. Or I'm looking for a fattier, much more flavorful cut, like a chuck roast, to braise. I'll occasionally get a top round roast if I want to make the equivalent of deli meat - cut thin and used for sandwiches.

Edit: and now you have me wanting to make Beef Wellington. Damn you! I'd be tempted to do one today if I thought I had any hope of finding pâté de foie gras in this town, which I don't. Bullet dodged!

don't ask
11-14-2010, 09:07 AM
Edit: and now you have me wanting to make Beef Wellington. Damn you! I'd be tempted to do one today if I thought I had any hope of finding pâté de foie gras in this town, which I don't. Bullet dodged!

Come on liverwurst or any shop bought pate will do the job. Get to it.

Athena
11-14-2010, 09:29 AM
Come on liverwurst or any shop bought pate will do the job. Get to it.

If I'm going to go through THAT much work, I'm doing it right. And store-bought pâté is what I want, it's just that in small towns in the middle of nowhere, pate isn't something they keep in stock.

Liverwurst, yes. But liverwurst != pâté de foie gras.

IvoryTowerDenizen
11-14-2010, 10:05 AM
Duxelles, made really well, can substitute nicely for the pate. The New Basics Cookbook (either that or the Silver Palate) has a wellington recipe without pate, but a superior duxelle.

aruvqan
11-14-2010, 10:52 AM
I'd argue if you use a sous vide you don't even need the aesthetic of browning, as the edges are going to be hidden by the pastry.

It is not for anything except taste, browning has a very specific flavor profile.

Drain Bead
11-14-2010, 10:59 AM
Mid-rare beef should be closer to 130-135.

drastic_quench
11-14-2010, 11:10 AM
I want to make Pommes Anna, can I use apples instead of potatoes, and how does it come out if I make it in the microwave, and use raspberry jelly instead of mustard and don't time it?

Yes! Thank you.

Larry Mudd
11-14-2010, 11:15 AM
nm

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