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Diogenes the Cynic
04-22-2011, 12:16 PM
Because so much discussion based on knowledge of the books has started to clutter up the episode thread with a sea of spoiler boxes, my idea is to set up an all purpose, ongoing thread where fans of the books can compare, contrast speculate and pontificate on the arcana of the books without having to spoiler box everything. This way, the episode discussions can just be episode discussions and the hardcore geekery can take place here.

Fair warning to anyone who hasn't read the books and doesn't want to be spoiled. Don't read this thread!

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 12:56 PM
Viserys dies, Drogo dies, Ned dies, Robb dies, Catelyn dies, Tywin dies, Jamie has his hand chopped off, Oberyn dies, Lysa dies, Renly dies, Joffrey dies, Dany is barren!

Whew, good to get that off my chest.

Does anybody think that Rhaegar and Lyana aren't Jon's parents?

MOIDALIZE
04-22-2011, 01:00 PM
You know what the best part of the series is? No Sansa chapters!

fusoya
04-22-2011, 01:03 PM
Don't forget about Lady! And Septa. I was so fucking happy when she showed up with her head on a pike. Here's a fun drinking game for book 1 - drink every time Septa gets mentioned in a Sansa chapter. Two drinks if it's the first page of a Sansa chapter.

When the heck do Catelyn and Robb die? Was that book 4 or am I just not remembering that?

I've read books 1-3, haven't read book 4, just re-read book 1.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 01:07 PM
When the heck do Catelyn and Robb die? Was that book 4 or am I just not remembering that?


Dude....

Walder Frey has them both killed at Edmure's wedding. They cut off Robb's head and sew Grey Wind's in its place.

That was the most memorable chapter I've ever read in any book.

jayjay
04-22-2011, 01:07 PM
When the heck do Catelyn and Robb die? Was that book 4 or am I just not remembering that?

Yes, it was Feast. The Red Wedding.

But Cat gets better. Kind of.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 01:08 PM
Yes, it was Feast. The Red Wedding.

But Cat gets better. Kind of.

The Red Wedding is about 3/4ths through Storm of Swords.

gonzoron
04-22-2011, 01:10 PM
Does anybody think that Rhaegar and Lyana aren't Jon's parents?As someone who is often oblivious to hints, I first heard about this theory a few weeks ago, and upon reading the assembled clues, I went from "No freaking way!" to "Yup, that makes perfect sense" in the space of about 5 minutes.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 01:12 PM
As someone who is often oblivious to hints, I first heard about this theory a few weeks ago, and upon reading the assembled clues, I went from "No freaking way!" to "Yup, that makes perfect sense" in the space of about 5 minutes.

Next time you read the books, you'll be all ":smack:"

jayjay
04-22-2011, 01:13 PM
The Red Wedding is about 3/4ths through Storm of Swords.

:smack:

It's been so long since I read them that I forgot that there are a lot of POVs that we don't hear from for the whole 1000 pages of Feast. It just seems like the Red Wedding comes in so late in the story so far that I always think it happened in the FfC.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 01:19 PM
:smack:

It's been so long since I read them that I forgot that there are a lot of POVs that we don't hear from for the whole 1000 pages of Feast. It just seems like the Red Wedding comes in so late in the story so far that I always think it happened in the FfC.

Yeah, a lot of the plot in Feast isn't in my memory like the first three. I've only read it once so it's not incorporated like the rest. Plus it was half a book anyway.

Spectralist
04-22-2011, 02:31 PM
Does anybody think that Rhaegar and Lyana aren't Jon's parents?
I'm far from convinced. There's certainly quite a few hints here and there that they might be Jon's parents but there's absolutely no good evidence. A mountain of maybes doesn't make a certainty for me. I think Ned being the father, and damned if I know who, the mother is slightly more likely.

More importantly, though, I feel that it will never be relevant to the books. I don't see how it could be. He's sworn to the wall. He's already turned down being absolved of his oaths and legitimized to be made Lord of the North. I don't see why him learning he has some Targaryan blood would make him change his mind about the Nights Watch. I certainly can't see him becoming a major political power just because of it. Or becoming Dany's consort or anything like that. If he ever learns his true parentage I'd expect it to be used for nothing more than showing some character growth.

On the other hand if Lyanna wasn't the mother it leaves us without the faintest clue what was happening at the Tower of Joy. But then we only know about that from a fever dream that could have been almost all BS for all we know.

Elendil's Heir
04-22-2011, 02:44 PM
If it comes down to a choice between the fall of the Seven Kingdoms by claiming a crown, and shivering at the Wall for the rest of his life, I'm guessing Jon might decide to head south.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 02:51 PM
There's certainly quite a few hints here and there that they might be Jon's parents but there's absolutely no good evidence.

Is there any evidence that Jon is Ned's son?

Snickers
04-22-2011, 02:55 PM
Heh. I was just reading stuff over at The Citadel this afternoon. The Dance of Dragons - the old one that occurred yonks ago - was a war between Targaryen brother and sister. One of the Aegons (Aegon II, maybe? I forget.) and his sister Rhaenyra. Their dad Viserys favored Rhaenyra as his heir, while The Kingmaker (the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, I think, but maybe he was just one of the council members) put it into Aegon's head to be king. There was war, and Rhaenyra eventually lost and was killed.

Why is this important? Why do we even know about this? If R+L=Jon, that means he and Daenerys are half-siblings. And she's going to be invading as queen, and he's one of the realm's sworn defenders (even though he's forbidden from taking sides, really - that's the flaw in my idea). I'm starting to think that Martin's not going to go the route of making J+D = King and Queen, but rather combatants on different sides. At least at first. I guess we'll see how it turns out.

ETA: Wait, no it doesn't. This whole idea is pants. Rhaegar isn't Dany's dad, he's her brother. So that means Jon's her nephew, not her half brother. Never mind.

Snickers
04-22-2011, 03:01 PM
Stupid flawed idea. Anyway...

Snarky, there's no real evidence that Jon is Ned's son, other than Ned's word. Robert certainly seemed to believe that Jon was Ned's, as did Catelyn, and there's stories and speculation about Eddard's relationships with a coupld of different women, but there's no real proof. There's certainly less circumstantial evidence for Ned being Jon's father than there is for Lyanna being Jon's mom.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 03:16 PM
Stupid flawed idea. Anyway...

Snarky, there's no real evidence that Jon is Ned's son, other than Ned's word. Robert certainly seemed to believe that Jon was Ned's, as did Catelyn, and there's stories and speculation about Eddard's relationships with a coupld of different women, but there's no real proof. There's certainly less circumstantial evidence for Ned being Jon's father than there is for Lyanna being Jon's mom.

Ned never claims Jon is his son.

jayjay
04-22-2011, 03:18 PM
Ned never claims Jon is his son.

Yes, he sidesteps it very neatly, but I can't remember the exact wording he uses.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 03:21 PM
Yes, he sidesteps it very neatly, but I can't remember the exact wording he uses.

You have my blood.

jayjay
04-22-2011, 03:25 PM
You have my blood.

YES! And I think, talking to Cat one of the times she's bitching at him about keeping Jon around, he says something like "He is my blood."

Snarky, you're like the Qadgop of Martin...

Snickers
04-22-2011, 03:30 PM
I was thinking of it a bit differently. Ned brings John back to Winterfell and raises him alongside his trueborn children, and never corrects anyone who assumes he is Jon's father. I think it'd be reasonable for someone seeing this to think that he'd claimed him as his son. That's kind of what I was meaning as "Ned's word" - surprised you didn't get that, not being in my head and all.

:)

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 03:35 PM
YES! And I think, talking to Cat one of the times she's bitching at him about keeping Jon around, he says something like "He is my blood."

Snarky, you're like the Qadgop of Martin...

Shucks...

I'm totally not though. Out of the Dunk and Egg books I've only read the Hedge Knight. Don't ask me anything about AFFC. Don't ask me about much of what happen pre-War of the Usurper. I didn't get R+L=J at all until lurking on westeros.org after I read the books.

Kylede
04-22-2011, 04:04 PM
Does anybody think that Rhaegar and Lyana aren't Jon's parents?

How about this....we will all find out the truth when the one remaining person who was at the death of Lyanna appears in the books. Howland Reed, Lord of Graywater Watch, was Ned's only companion to survive that trip to the deathbed of Lyanna. Either we are gonna meet him, or he revealed the truth to his children.

BTW Snarky, you forgot to mention, Lysa killed Jon Arryn!!

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 04:12 PM
BTW Snarky, you forgot to mention, Lysa killed Jon Arryn!!

He's dead before the books start though, and that's not a spoiler. I was getting all the big spoilers out of the way, not deaths.

ETA I guess that is a big spoiler. Good call.

Also, Renly and Loras are gay! (which apparently is going to be... obvious).

DigitalC
04-22-2011, 04:47 PM
I feel so sad for all the girls who mentioned they are only watching the show because of Sean Bean.

fusoya
04-22-2011, 05:38 PM
Bah, they aren't worthy of it anyway.

I'm starting to misguess if I ever finished reading Storm of Swords now, since I do have a memory of a wedding massacre, but I might just be thinking of Kill Bill, which came out right around when I was reading it. I definitely rushed my way through books 2&3 (I had a tendency to speed read and never absorb anything around that time of my life), which I didn't enjoy as much as the first, which is the main reason I never got around to reading book 4 (and also because I was advised by everyone who DID read it to wait until book 5 was about to come out and read them back to back.....it's been a long wait....)

Tamerlane
04-22-2011, 06:15 PM
No Sansa chapters!

I love the Sansa chapters! Perfect evocation of a naive dimbulb :D. They're seriously good writing.

Spectralist
04-22-2011, 06:27 PM
Is there any evidence that Jon is Ned's son?
The fact that he let Catelyn believe it for so long despite how much discomfort it obviously caused her. And despite that if Jon were Ned's nephew I think Cat would be more than willing to help hide his identity. There was just no good reason to hide it from her. For me this is stronger than all the vague little hints to Lyanna.

You have my blood.
He also says something like "Lets see what my sons have found" referring to Rob and Jon. But trying to glean anything one way or the other from how he refers to Jon seems like pointless nitpicking to me. If Ned wanted to lie about Jon I don't think he would feel the need to dance around the wording of it regardless of how honourable he is.

gallows fodder
04-22-2011, 06:32 PM
Sansa chapters are the best chapters. Even if you're too [expunged] to recognize Sansa's worth as a character, her chapters are the ones that give you access to the Hound and Littlefinger, two of the best characters in the book.

Elendil's Heir
04-22-2011, 07:23 PM
The fact that he let Catelyn believe it for so long despite how much discomfort it obviously caused her. And despite that if Jon were Ned's nephew I think Cat would be more than willing to help hide his identity. There was just no good reason to hide it from her. For me this is stronger than all the vague little hints to Lyanna....

If he swore to his dying sister to keep Jon's parentage secret and to, say, "raise him as if he was your own son," he would stand by his word, regardless of later inconvenience or peril to him, or the discomfort of his loved ones.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 08:14 PM
Agreed with Elendil's Heir about Ned's promise. He thinks about what he told her as she lay dying constantly. He thinks of how much his promise has hurt people.

Spectralist, what are your thoughts on what went down between Rhaegar and Lyana, and at the Tower of Joy?

Spectralist
04-22-2011, 08:57 PM
If he swore to his dying sister to keep Jon's parentage secret and to, say, "raise him as if he was your own son," he would stand by his word, regardless of later inconvenience or peril to him, or the discomfort of his loved ones.
Possibly but "keep his parentage secret" or something like that seems much too specific for a deathbed request. Just plain "Protect him" or "Keep him safe" or something like that would seem much more likely. Even if it was that specific it would seem odd to me for Ned to not eventually tell Cat unless he for some reason didn't believe she could keep it a secret. And it just doesn't seem like that would have been the case.

Spectralist, what are your thoughts on what went down between Rhaegar and Lyana, and at the Tower of Joy?
Dunno. We have too little information on the Tower of Joy for me to have any real idea what went on there. As far as I can recall all we know of the Tower of Joy event is the 7 vs 3 thing. And that Lyanna was probably there. I say probably because we only learn that from a fever dream and it could easily be that different important events in Ned's life merged in the dream. Unlikely but I'd not consider it certain Lyanna was there without corroboration from another source.

As far as Rhaegar and Lyanna again we have so little info. Robert clearly believes that Lyanna was raped. But there's not the slightest hint anywhere else that I can recall that he's right. So it seems likely there was a consensual relationship of some sort. I only think that because most people seem to have a good opinion of Rhaegar. But we hear so little about Rhaegar throughout the series I still find myself thinking there's at least some truth to Robert's version of events.

DigitalC
04-22-2011, 09:07 PM
What we do know is that the three biggest badasses on the kingsguard were not with Rhaegar at the battle, they were not with the king at the castle and they were not with viserys and daenerys. They stayed at the tower, something they would not have willingly done unless THEY felt it was the most important place to be. Guarding Rhaegers kidnap/rape victim does not strike me as good enough reason, guarding his true love who is about to give birth to his heir does.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 09:21 PM
What we do know is that the three biggest badasses on the kingsguard were not with Rhaegar at the battle, they were not with the king at the castle and they were not with viserys and daenerys. They stayed at the tower, something they would not have willingly done unless THEY felt it was the most important place to be. Guarding Rhaegers kidnap/rape victim does not strike me as good enough reason, guarding his true love who is about to give birth to his heir does.

Isn't the argument that Ned's memory of that is completely unreliable?

Also, what's the name of the series? A Song of Ice and Fire. Stark=Ice, Targaryen=Fire. Jon's story is the song of ice and fire.

jayjay
04-22-2011, 09:43 PM
Isn't the argument that Ned's memory of that is completely unreliable?

Also, what's the name of the series? A Song of Ice and Fire. Stark=Ice, Targaryen=Fire. Jon's story is the song of ice and fire.

Dany's vision in the House of the Undying suggests a different interpretation.

After several more doors, she sees a man that looks like Viserys, but taller and with eyes of a darker purple. He turns to a woman nursing a babe and names the child Aegon. The woman asks if he will write a song, and the man replies that "He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He turns to Daenerys then, and almost seems to see her before adding "There must be one more; the dragon has three heads."

I always took the man to be Rhaegar, the woman Lyanna and the child Jon. The third "head" is still iffy at this point, though.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 09:49 PM
How is that different?

Zsofia
04-22-2011, 10:12 PM
Well, if Rhaegar didn't knock whatshername up, what on earth was the Kingsguard doing there instead of protecting the, you know, king?

DigitalC
04-22-2011, 10:16 PM
Isn't the argument that Ned's memory of that is completely unreliable?

Also, what's the name of the series? A Song of Ice and Fire. Stark=Ice, Targaryen=Fire. Jon's story is the song of ice and fire.

Uh, no Ice refers to the white walkers. The series is basically the self destruction of the seven kingdoms (The north and Riverlands are crushed, the Lannisters are reeling, the iron islands just invaded highgarden, the vale is under siege by the barbarians Tyrion armed and ruled by littlefinger who is only interested in sowing chaos and Dorne is probably going to go to war against the crown because of what happened to princess Myrcella) and while all this is going on Dany and the White walkers are both preparing their respective invasions. By the time they get to the seven kingdoms there really isn't going to be a whole lot to fight over.

Palo Verde
04-22-2011, 10:24 PM
I'm rereading the series for the millionth time in preparation for the upcoming release of the 5th book. What amazes me is how I tear through the first 3 books, putting all other things aside and all I want to do is read, even knowing well the outcome. The books are just page-turners. But now I'm reading Crows, and I have to sort of make myself reread it. It's just less exciting than the others.

I sure hope the next is better.

Woeg
04-22-2011, 10:34 PM
Possibly but "keep his parentage secret" or something like that seems much too specific for a deathbed request. Just plain "Protect him" or "Keep him safe" or something like that would seem much more likely. Even if it was that specific it would seem odd to me for Ned to not eventually tell Cat unless he for some reason didn't believe she could keep it a secret. And it just doesn't seem like that would have been the case.

Something to consider here is plausible deniability. Ned knows Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and knows he isn't a product of rape, but love. His sister swears him to keep Jon safe. This is Ned's blood, and he knows that to keep Jon safe, he will have to keep him close, always....so he decides to claim him as his bastard. Ned ALSO knows that, if Robert finds out about Jon, given how he loses his gourd over Targaryans, he WILL kill the child. So Ned is left with a child he must return home with, that his friend Robert will obviously know about, and that his wife clearly didn't bear.

He could let Cat in on the whole shebang, but knowing the truth of the matter, she will be likely to coddle Jon and treat him as respected family, blood...which, if witnessed by Robert, would make him suspicious. After all, what woman would so coddle a bastard begot by her husband? By keeping her in the dark, Cat does what any mother, especially in such a social environ as the Seven Kingdoms, might do...she treats Jon with just shy of open contempt. Her honest reaction thereby creates a further shield for Jon's safety, despite the pain and distrust it cost Ned to provide it.

With Rye
04-22-2011, 10:37 PM
Possibly but "keep his parentage secret" or something like that seems much too specific for a deathbed request. Just plain "Protect him" or "Keep him safe" or something like that would seem much more likely. Even if it was that specific it would seem odd to me for Ned to not eventually tell Cat unless he for some reason didn't believe she could keep it a secret. And it just doesn't seem like that would have been the case.

I think everyone involved knew how crucial it was to keep Jon's Targaryen lineage a secret; if anyone knew or suspected, Jon--as direct heir--would be as good as dead.

Ned doesn't tell Cat not because he distrusts her, but because he is (fatally!) honorable to a fault and he keeps his promises, especially, I would think, to his dying sister's last request.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 10:38 PM
Uh, no Ice refers to the white walkers.

Things can have two meanings.

Also, read the quote from Dany's visions in the House of the Undying.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 10:46 PM
jayjay, Dany's vision shows Rhaegar, but the woman is Elia Martell and the baby is Aegon. Gregor smashes his head against a wall during the sack of King's Landing.

It's my opinion that Rhaegar was just mistaken about who the prophecy referred to.

jayjay
04-22-2011, 11:11 PM
jayjay, Dany's vision shows Rhaegar, but the woman is Elia Martell and the baby is Aegon. Gregor smashes his head against a wall during the sack of King's Landing.

It's my opinion that Rhaegar was just mistaken about who the prophecy referred to.

Ah...okay. I forgot that Rhaegar's son with Elia was named Aegon. And I'm not sure what I meant by what I posted, other than the quote. I was apparently confused somehow...you know how you re-read something you wrote and think "What the hell was my point?" Yeah.

Snarky_Kong
04-22-2011, 11:13 PM
Here's a question, who named Jon?

Spectralist
04-22-2011, 11:14 PM
I think Ned named him after Jon Arryn.

MOIDALIZE
04-22-2011, 11:20 PM
I always took the man to be Rhaegar, the woman Lyanna and the child Jon. The third "head" is still iffy at this point, though.

It's clearly Hodor.

Ura-Maru
04-22-2011, 11:38 PM
For "Why not tell Cat," two reasons. First, he's not keeping Jon's parentage in reserve for the next revolution. He wants the secret kept forever. You keep a secret forever by not telling anyone, even those you trust.

Second, he had been married for Cat for 9 months at that point, and they'd been able to actually interact for like 15 hours. Not trusting her with a serious secret is reasonable. By the time he'd grown to love and trust her, he'd been deceiving her about it for years, and she'd already started to resent Jon. Hard to backtrack from that, and much riskier than not. And what would it gain? She'd still probably treat him badly, out of guilt for treating him badly.

That said, while I don't think Jon is Ned's son, (there's way to much careful language when Ned talks and thinks about him) there's an outside chance that he's Brandon's, or Ned's dad's Or Robert's via Lyanna? How long were her and Rhaegar together? Ned COULD have stashed little Rhaegar/Lyanna with someone else, and that all the vagueness in the narration is a smokescreen. And there was some not-particularly-subtle hinting at something between Ned and Lady Starfall. And people have been mistaken about prophecies before, particularly THAT one, and the version of that we got was third hand/seen in a vision. And there's been no hint that Jon has any Tygarian traits at all.

Beyond a, ah, 'taste for fire' shall we say, which is quite a stretch.

The thing is, that's a LOT of smokescreen, and the Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon version is the simplest theory that explains a lot of weirdness. Most importantly, if Ned didn't promise Lianna he'd keep her child safe, what DID he promise?

--
Some baby-swaping seems likely, if only because that gives Jon doing the same a nice echo quality.

brocks
04-22-2011, 11:52 PM
You have my blood.

Isn't that acknowledging parenthood? There's a big difference between that, and "We share common blood."

brocks
04-23-2011, 12:03 AM
He could let Cat in on the whole shebang, but knowing the truth of the matter, she will be likely to coddle Jon and treat him as respected family, blood...which, if witnessed by Robert, would make him suspicious. After all, what woman would so coddle a bastard begot by her husband? By keeping her in the dark, Cat does what any mother, especially in such a social environ as the Seven Kingdoms, might do...she treats Jon with just shy of open contempt.

Or, Ned could tell Cat, and she could bitch about it in public, and be nice to Jon in private. Seems a lot easier for everybody to me.

brocks
04-23-2011, 12:07 AM
It's clearly Hodor.

Which came first, Hodor or Timmy?

fusoya
04-23-2011, 12:31 PM
Hodor. Game of Thrones came out a year before South Park even started.

Elendil's Heir
04-23-2011, 04:23 PM
Hodor Hodor Hodor.

Hodor?

jayjay
04-23-2011, 07:53 PM
AUGH! This is why it's so hard to read the episode threads and keep my spoiler finger out of it...someone over there just posted that they only just realized that Jaime and Cersei weren't just siblings, but twins. And then hoped she doesn't get pregnant! AUGH!!!!

I just stared at the post and ran through the possible responses in my head for about five minutes before just deciding to post this mini-rant here. It's SO TEMPTING!

Snarky_Kong
04-23-2011, 08:28 PM
I imagine that the newbies will figure it out before Ned does.

Simplicio
04-23-2011, 09:07 PM
Well, if Rhaegar didn't knock whatshername up, what on earth was the Kingsguard doing there instead of protecting the, you know, king?

They left Jamie to protect the king, so they knew he'd be safe ;)

ETA: more seriously, would the Kingsguad even protect her if she was knocked up by Rhaegar. Even if she was, the kid would just be the bastard of the prince, and I don't think we ever see the Kingsguard protecting any of Roberts bastards.

jayjay
04-23-2011, 09:14 PM
They left Jamie to protect the king, so they knew he'd be safe ;)

ETA: more seriously, would the Kingsguad even protect her if she was knocked up by Rhaegar. Even if she was, the kid would just be the bastard of the prince, and I don't think we ever see the Kingsguard protecting any of Roberts bastards.

Yes, but none of Robert's bastards was birthed by the love of his life.

ETA: And more importantly, they were guarding a very pregnant Lyanna more than the child.

Hellestal
04-23-2011, 09:26 PM
I'm far from convinced. There's certainly quite a few hints here and there that they might be Jon's parents but there's absolutely no good evidence. A mountain of maybes doesn't make a certainty for me.Monty Python's bridge knight is an object of ridicule, not a model to be emulated. It behooves us to admit the obvious after a certain point.
Dany's vision in the House of the Undying suggests a different interpretation.After several more doors, she sees a man that looks like Viserys, but taller and with eyes of a darker purple. He turns to a woman nursing a babe and names the child Aegon. The woman asks if he will write a song, and the man replies that "He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He turns to Daenerys then, and almost seems to see her before adding "There must be one more; the dragon has three heads."I always took the man to be Rhaegar, the woman Lyanna and the child Jon. The third "head" is still iffy at this point, though.That would appear to me to be the same interpretation as Snarky_Kong's. "His is the song of ice and fire." His being Jon's.

That makes the two heads of the dragon referred to here Jon and Dany, the baby in the vision and the person watching the vision.

The third head of the dragon is Tyrion Lannister.Uh, no Ice refers to the white walkers.This sort of thing can have more than one meaning. Jon's song is the song of ice and fire. The song applies just as poetically to him personally as to the coming fight.

jayjay
04-23-2011, 09:29 PM
The third head of the dragon is Tyrion Lannister.

I remember coming to this conclusion myself but it's been so long that I forget why. Why is Tyrion the third head?

Snarky_Kong
04-23-2011, 09:35 PM
That makes the two heads of the dragon referred to here Jon and Dany, the baby in the vision and the person watching the vision.

Isn't the baby Aegon? Did Rhaegar name two of his sons Aegon?

jayjay
04-23-2011, 09:43 PM
Isn't the baby Aegon? Did Rhaegar name two of his sons Aegon?

If it had been anyone but the Mountain that was supposed to have dashed Aegon against a wall, I'd wonder if there was a possibility that Aegon was still alive and hidden away (and maybe a character we know already*). But Gregor doesn't have the cunning to have subverted Tywin's order, and is definitely too deficient in that respect to have gone all in to a conspiracy to hide the true Targaryen heir. Sandor, maybe, for whatever reason. But not Gregor.


*Sam Tarly?

Snarky_Kong
04-23-2011, 09:47 PM
There are theories that baby Aegon was smuggled out and substituted with another child. I don't buy them, but they're there.

Imagine asking for a replacement baby.

Frank
04-23-2011, 09:52 PM
I'd wonder if there was a possibility that Aegon was still alive and hidden away (and maybe a character we know already*).


*Sam Tarly?
Not in a million years. Sam is obviously his mother's son, and Lord Randyll would never have accepted someone else's child as his heir.

Rasa
04-23-2011, 11:15 PM
I have shit attention span and suck at books like this but love it anyway... what makes Jon "ice" if he's the kid of a Tully and Targaryen? If he's not a Stark, why ice? Bah, I miss everything!

Snarky_Kong
04-23-2011, 11:20 PM
I have shit attention span and suck at books like this but love it anyway... what makes Jon "ice" if he's the kid of a Tully and Targaryen? If he's not a Stark, why ice? Bah, I miss everything!

Tully?

Lyana Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Rasa
04-23-2011, 11:21 PM
Yeah. I should not post after having a few glasses of wine. NEVERMINDDDD... haha. Thanks ;)

Another case of "shit I can edit but not delete my damn post..."

Snarky_Kong
04-24-2011, 01:42 PM
Proposed drinking game, every time Hodor says "Hodor."

That, or every time we see boobs.

Taomist
04-24-2011, 02:11 PM
Proposed drinking game, every time Hodor says "Hodor."

That, or every time we see boobs.

I'd like to be able to view the whole hour awake, tyvm!!
I'd be snockered before the first quarter hour was up.

Elendil's Heir
04-24-2011, 04:54 PM
...Imagine asking for a replacement baby.

I suspect they wouldn't ask, but take.

Snarky_Kong
04-24-2011, 05:20 PM
I dunno, ever see what women will agree to for their babies to get into commercials?

MaxTheVool
04-24-2011, 06:04 PM
Like many of you I'm a huge fan of the first 3 books, kinda meh about the 4th. Is there a good website with chapter summaries of it so I can remind myself what happened in preparation for book 5 without rereading the whole thing?


thanks

Snarky_Kong
04-24-2011, 06:09 PM
Like many of you I'm a huge fan of the first 3 books, kinda meh about the 4th. Is there a good website with chapter summaries of it so I can remind myself what happened in preparation for book 5 without rereading the whole thing?


thanks

http://towerofthehand.com/books/104/

HazelNutCoffee
04-24-2011, 07:55 PM
I'm currently re-reading Storm of Swords, the best book in the series in my opinion.

I've been wondering why Tyrion poured the wine onto the floor after Joff died. At that point people thought he'd just choked on his pie, didn't they? Did he immediately assume that Joff had been murdered and that Sansa had done it?

Snarky_Kong
04-24-2011, 09:08 PM
So, Cersei claims she had a child die. Are we assuming that's a lie to comfort Cat, or is that a change?

Drain Bead
04-24-2011, 09:29 PM
I'm guessing it's a change, to illustrate the point when Ned discovers the truth of her remaining 3 children's parentage. She mentioned that baby looking like Robert and being dark-haired. Seems like it might be bludgeoning the viewers a bit much; some more astute non-readers on TWOP have already picked up on that particular plot point!

The Daenerys arc is going better than I thought it might after the somewhat rapey wedding night. I was worried that if it weren't handled properly, her eventual love for her husband would start to look like Stockholm Syndrome. This portrayal fixes something from the book that I always thought was a bit unrealistic--why would Drogo be all gentle-like on the wedding night and then only show up to do it Dothraki-style while she wept during the first few months of their marriage? Instead, Drogo is always Drogo until she takes the initiative to fix what she doesn't like. This is somewhat in line with what happened with the book, but I think it shows off her leadership qualities better this way. Instead of working to get Drogo back to wedding-night Drogo, she's actively working to change her husband into what she wants.

Frank
04-24-2011, 09:32 PM
So, Cersei claims she had a child die. Are we assuming that's a lie to comfort Cat, or is that a change?
I seem to remember that she aborted Robert's child. I could be remembering wrong.

Drain Bead
04-24-2011, 09:37 PM
Oh, also, I think the symbolism with Daenerys and fire is a bit heavy-handed.

HazelNutCoffee
04-24-2011, 09:38 PM
Yes. She mentions somewhere in the series that Robert got her pregnant just once, and that she had an abortion.

Frank
04-24-2011, 09:40 PM
Oh, also, I think the symbolism with Daenerys and fire is a bit heavy-handed.
I've been assuming that the candles around the eggs are foreshadowing for when they hatch.

Drain Bead
04-24-2011, 09:43 PM
That, and the "too hot" tub in the first episode, and tonight's story about dragons coming from a moon that got too close to the sun and burned up.

Billy Baroo
04-24-2011, 09:47 PM
I've been wondering why Tyrion poured the wine onto the floor after Joff died.
Wasn't he protecting Sansa?

nachtmusick
04-24-2011, 10:00 PM
Resolved:

I shall subscribe to HBO because I cannot wait to see this series.



Question to current subscribers:

Will I be able to catch up? If I subscribe now, can I catch the first two Episodes on repeat in time to see #3 next Sunday?

Drain Bead
04-24-2011, 10:02 PM
Pretty sure they're On Demand.

nachtmusick
04-24-2011, 10:09 PM
Or that - thanks.

Ura-Maru
04-24-2011, 10:10 PM
I agree about showDany arc changes being an improvement. Who knows, I may even end up liking this version.

BookCersei did abort Robert's child. Upgrading to infanticide might just be a way to make her less sympathetic, or they may plan on downplaying all of the 'moon tea' plot-lines to avoid controversy.

--
Though all the fire symbolism except the candles is straight from the books, hot baths included.

Taomist
04-24-2011, 10:47 PM
I thought...well, I've thought showCersei to be much, well, softer, than the bookCersei. So far. She actually seemed a tad distressed about Bran, rather than just pissed that Jaime may have caused more trouble than it was worth, and I thought the scene with Catelyn might add to that.
Which should make it odd if/when she turns into total-raging-bitch Cersei. If she even does; but I can't imagine them changing the plot that much.


Question: In the book, what did Bran say when he woke from his coma? I'm going to guess it was 'Winter is coming', but I honestly can't remember; I ask because someone in the other thread brought up that they missed it, and I don't recall it being in the series at all: he just woke up, end of show.

Snarky_Kong
04-24-2011, 10:53 PM
Question: In the book, what did Bran say when he woke from his coma? I'm going to guess it was 'Winter is coming', but I honestly can't remember; I ask because someone in the other thread brought up that they missed it, and I don't recall it being in the series at all: he just woke up, end of show.

He names his wolf Summer.

HazelNutCoffee
04-24-2011, 11:36 PM
Yeah, Cersei in the book always seemed brittle to me, and volatile. And arrogant. Even in just the first episode, she seemed a lot softer (haven't caught the second ep yet). It'll be interesting to see how they handle her bitch queen scenes (like when she demands Lady be executed).

AuntiePam
04-24-2011, 11:46 PM
Where are the writers going with showCersei's lie about the dead son? Catelyn said she never knew. She didn't know the king had a son? Everyone in the kingdom would know. Kings advertise that shit, throw parties even.

Whatever, the lie wasn't necessary. Cersei could have shown sympathy just by being a mother.

On the other hand, I never quite bought bookCersei's confession to Ned that she aborted Robert's children. That's too much ammunition. Maybe the writers will have Catelyn discover the truth. She did look surprised, if not downright skeptical.

AuntiePam
04-25-2011, 12:02 AM
Oh, and having separate threads is an awesome idea. Over at TWOP, people who've read the books are spoiling things right and left, despite pleas to stop. I'm thinking the moderator either hasn't read the books so doesn't know what's a spoiler, or just doesn't care.

This is much better.

Snarky_Kong
04-25-2011, 12:06 AM
TWOP?

HazelNutCoffee
04-25-2011, 12:19 AM
On the other hand, I never quite bought bookCersei's confession to Ned that she aborted Robert's children. That's too much ammunition.
By that time Ned had already uncovered the incest. The additional information was small potatoes. The incest/cuckolding alone would have seen Cersei beheaded.

ETA: TWOP - Television Without Pity.

artemis
04-25-2011, 10:15 AM
I know they had a lot of ground to cover in this episode, but I'm disappointed we never saw Bran's dreams. His dream encounter with the three-headed crow is pretty important. I wonder how the series is going to show that he's gained some significant mystical/psychic abilities during his coma since they've skipped that scene?

voltaire
04-25-2011, 10:19 AM
Ok, as a non-book reader I'm not reading anything in here, but I just dropped in to say that I now suspect my concerns in the original thread about there being future twincest spawn may have been a day late and a dollar short. There's no way that little guy-liner wearing twerp isn't a genetic aberration. Too bad the wolf didn't go for his dangley-bits, instead.

Elendil's Heir
04-25-2011, 10:42 AM
I can't help but wish that Joffrey had found some other hobby than waving his sword around and being a little shit. Ballet, maybe. He could go far in ballet.

MOIDALIZE
04-25-2011, 10:51 AM
"Sansa has her needles, but I have my Needle"? Gah! GAH, I say!.

And if they're trying to show how all the horse riding is taking its toll on Dany, why have her slaves spend all their time working on her hands? She has saddle sores, not rein palms (I just made that up). If you can show her getting railed by Khal Drogo, you can jolly well show her thighs and ass getting worked on. Of course, now that she's gotten away with sexing the khal face-to-face with her clothes on they probably won't show her nekkid anymore ( :( ).

Is it just me, or does Cersei not seem quite as icy and malevolent as she should? In the books, I feel about 5% sorry for her, but on the show she doesn't seem like that bad of a person.

I'm kinda feeling the same about the show as I did the Watchmen movie. I like it, but I wonder if it's enjoyable on its own without reading the book and experiencing all the intrigues.

MaxTheVool
04-25-2011, 12:14 PM
I can't help but wish that Joffrey had found some other hobby than waving his sword around and being a little shit. Ballet, maybe. He could go far in ballet.

I don't get it... is that actor from Billy Elliot or something?

Captain Amazing
04-25-2011, 12:17 PM
I don't get it... is that actor from Billy Elliot or something?

There's a fairly famous ballet company in Chicago called the Joffrey Ballet.

Eleanor of Aquitaine
04-25-2011, 12:54 PM
Where are the writers going with showCersei's lie about the dead son? Catelyn said she never knew. She didn't know the king had a son? Everyone in the kingdom would know. Kings advertise that shit, throw parties even.

Whatever, the lie wasn't necessary. Cersei could have shown sympathy just by being a mother.

On the other hand, I never quite bought bookCersei's confession to Ned that she aborted Robert's children. That's too much ammunition. Maybe the writers will have Catelyn discover the truth. She did look surprised, if not downright skeptical.Maybe it wasn't a lie - maybe they've changing the story so that Robert's baby died instead of being aborted, or maybe Cersei killed the baby! And it did serve to emphasize that the baby, Robert's child, had black hair.


I wanted to see Bran's wolf howling mournfully under Bran's window, because Catelyen won't allow him in the sick room - until he fights off the attacker.

DigitalC
04-25-2011, 01:07 PM
They didn't actually show the wolf but you could clearly hear him howling and Cat does complain about it to Robb.

Eleanor of Aquitaine
04-25-2011, 01:37 PM
Ok, I somehow missed that. I heard howling in the distance when Tyrion woke with the dogs, but I didn't catch Catelyn complaining about it.

AuntiePam
04-25-2011, 01:58 PM
Maybe it wasn't a lie - maybe they've changing the story so that Robert's baby died instead of being aborted, or maybe Cersei killed the baby! And it did serve to emphasize that the baby, Robert's child, had black hair.


You might be right. From HBO's website: "She's always manipulative, but I do believe she was distraught over the death of her son." Was Cersei's grief over her lost child sincere? Creators David Benioff and D.B. Weiss discuss."

Distraught? Nuh-uh. I didn't watch the discussion but it does look like they're trying to make Cersei more sympathetic. Blech.

I don't remember Cat finding that long blonde hair.

Elendil's Heir
04-25-2011, 02:52 PM
...I don't remember Cat finding that long blonde hair.

Nor do I. Not many blondes at Winterfell, in any event.

Who was the goggle-eyed guy standing behind Robb in the godswood when Cat said she intended to go to King's Landing?

G0sp3l
04-25-2011, 05:02 PM
Nor do I. Not many blondes at Winterfell, in any event.

Who was the goggle-eyed guy standing behind Robb in the godswood when Cat said she intended to go to King's Landing?

Fairly certain you're talking about Theon Greyjoy.

Looking ahead a bit... If GRRM doesn't understand the love for Syrio in the books, if he's as awesome on the show, what's he going to think?

I'm really looking forward to seeing Littlefinger and Varys. I think reaching King's Landing is where this show can really start shining.

HazelNutCoffee
04-25-2011, 07:59 PM
Theon is ugly. I always imagined him looking sort of handsome in a dark and emo way.

I want MORE WOLVES!

The blond hair scene wasn't in the book. In the book Cat just makes the link in her head.

G0sp3l
04-25-2011, 09:45 PM
Theon is ugly. I always imagined him looking sort of handsome in a dark and emo way.

I want MORE WOLVES!

The blond hair scene wasn't in the book. In the book Cat just makes the link in her head.

In the books I imagined Theon as something of a ladykiller as well. I also pictured Catelyn as attractive. On the show she appears average. At best. I'm sure that's more realistic, if Cersei is supposed to be the 'raging beauty' on the show they can't have a more attractive person fill the other roles. IMO. :)

ETA: Not the the actor playing Cersei is much better. :(

OpalCat
04-25-2011, 09:46 PM
I think they downplayed how much it hurt Arya to drive away Nymeria.

HazelNutCoffee
04-25-2011, 11:34 PM
I feel like they've been downplaying the wolves in general. In the book they have a strong presence - they're always in the background somewhere. I suppose it remains to be seen how they play out Bran/Summer and Jon/Ghost. And Robb/Grey Wind.

In the book I think there's a scene where Arya talks about how sad she is about Nymeria with her father. I suppose they're trying to rush things along here.

brocks
04-26-2011, 02:10 AM
I also pictured Catelyn as attractive. On the show she appears average. At best.

I thought she looked 80 years old when she was sitting by Bran's bed. I kind of admire an actress willing to look that bad.


I'm sure that's more realistic, if Cersei is supposed to be the 'raging beauty' on the show they can't have a more attractive person fill the other roles. Ironically, the woman who was first cast as Cat, Jennifer Ehle, was IMO *much* more attractive than the actress playing her sister, supposedly the family beauty, in the "Pride and Prejudice" miniseries. Not even close.

OpalCat
04-26-2011, 03:03 AM
I feel like they've been downplaying the wolves in general. In the book they have a strong presence - they're always in the background somewhere. I suppose it remains to be seen how they play out Bran/Summer and Jon/Ghost. And Robb/Grey Wind.


I didn't even see Ghost when Jon left for the wall!

HazelNutCoffee
04-26-2011, 03:30 AM
If you look really closely, you can see a white blur lurking in the background in one of the scenes. If you blink you'll miss it.

As for Cat, I don't know what they were thinking when they cast that actress. Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that she and Cersei are of a similar age, with Cat being a few years older. In the show she looks AGES older than Cersei.

Elendil's Heir
04-26-2011, 11:38 AM
...it remains to be seen how they play out... Robb/Grey Wind....

Sword. Needle and thread. Ugh.

AuntiePam
04-26-2011, 01:24 PM
As for Cat, I don't know what they were thinking when they cast that actress. Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that she and Cersei are of a similar age, with Cat being a few years older. In the show she looks AGES older than Cersei.

She does, doesn't she? It makes sense though. She's gonna look a bit haggard at Bran's bedside. Plus, she probably doesn't spend as much time in front of a mirror as Cersei. :)

Snarky_Kong
04-26-2011, 01:35 PM
Sansa time!

Ok, so through Game of Thrones, is Sansa PC, stupid, or evil. From the weekly thread we have these three opinions, and claims that they are mutually exclusive.

I find her incredily naive and intentionally blind. She watchs Joffrey try to kill her sister, then lies for him. Cersei kills her pet, and she adores Cersei. She watches the Lannisters be horrible people for months and betray her father, resulting in his death.

Now, she does all of this because she has a fantasy of valor and beauty. In my mind she's not evil, just very stupid and very selfish.

Is she realistic? Do real people stay in abusive relationships? Yes.... but how is that a defense? Real people rape, steal, and murder, but that doesn't make those actions good things. (I'm not saying Sansa's actions are equivalent in any way, so don't even go there.)

So, ASOIAF fans, what do you think of Sansa?

Note, I'm genrally talking about her in the first book. Her character changes quite a bit after Ned's death.

jayjay
04-26-2011, 01:40 PM
I hated her in Game. HA. TED. She was immature, willfully blind, and actively stupid (Really, you little twit?! Narcing on your family when they're running for their lives? REALLY?!).

NAF1138
04-26-2011, 01:43 PM
First book only? Painfully, hopelessly naive. Not evil, not necessarily stupid, but naive to a very extreme level.

DigitalC
04-26-2011, 01:47 PM
There was no evil to what she did, she was genuinely trying to get the best result for everyone involved.

Snarky_Kong
04-26-2011, 01:50 PM
There was no evil to what she did, she was genuinely trying to get the best result for everyone involved.

No. She was trying to get the best result for herself.

When Joffrey is trying to kill Arya what does she say? "You're spoiling it!" She was concerned about her perfect day, not whether or not her sister would be hurt.

Elendil's Heir
04-26-2011, 02:22 PM
I think she probably said "You're spoiling it!" to both Joffrey and Arya. Neither of them were doing what she really, really wanted them to do in order to eventually give her a fairytale wedding.

Snarky_Kong
04-26-2011, 02:43 PM
Sure. However, the point isn't who she was scolding, it was what she was scolding about. She didn't want her day ruined. It wasn't about someone else getting hurt, it was about how it affects her.

Bridget Burke
04-26-2011, 02:56 PM
....Note, I'm genrally talking about her in the first book. Her character changes quite a bit after Ned's death.

Well, I'm not going to limit my opinions to the first book. So I'll say I found her actions there quite stupidly naive. But she has been getting a valuable education & might become a useful player...

Lantern
04-26-2011, 03:09 PM
I agree that Sansa is not evil; just understandably naive and caught in a horribly difficult situation which she didn't have the experience to cope with. And she definitely wises up in the later books under the tutelage of Littlefinger. I think she is going to be a pretty important and active character in the later books.

And yes I found it strange that they made Cat so plain; I am pretty sure she was supposed to be quite beautiful in the books, beautiful enough for Littlefinger to be still in love with. And I don't think Littlefinger was the kind of man who would stay in love with a plain woman...

Frank
04-26-2011, 03:13 PM
But she has been getting a valuable education & might become a useful player...
Yes, in book 4 she's definitely getting smarter. A day late and a dollar short, but still.

Lantern
04-26-2011, 03:18 PM
I think they downplayed how much it hurt Arya to drive away Nymeria.
Yes. IIRC in the book what mad the scene heart-rending was that Nymeria didn't understand why she was being driven away which would have made the separation so much more painful for Arya. In the show, it appears that Nymeria understands exactly what is going on and just needs a stone to get her going. I think they want to avoid piling on too much misery especially for the viewers who haven't read the books. The poor dears don't know what they are in for.:D

Simplicio
04-26-2011, 03:21 PM
There's pretty limited time to build up the wolves that belong to the Stark daughters, since they're driven away/killed pretty quickly after being introduced. I suspect Jon's Brans and Rickon's wolves will get more screen time as the series progresses. Rickons wolf is pretty much more of a character then he is.

Lantern
04-26-2011, 03:28 PM
There was a bit of a discussion about this in the first thread. I think they should definitely have built up the relationship between the wolves and the children which would also have allowed new viewers more time to get to know the characters. I have seen several complaints that there were too many characters in the first episode and if you haven't read the books it's entirely legitimate. I would have stayed with the Starks for the entire first and perhaps even the full second episode and waited before introducing the Dany/Drogo subplot.

Bridget Burke
04-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Anyone else hoping Nymeria shows up in a later book? (Not just as a rumor, either?)

--Agree that, on TV, the girls' wolves didn't get much "character development" because their roles were rather short.

OpalCat
04-26-2011, 05:29 PM
My husband and I were talking last night about whether or not Nymeria would come back later in the series. I sure hope she does. Arya seems to see through her eyes in dreams sometimes, right? Like Bran does but less so?

Alessan
04-26-2011, 05:31 PM
My husband and I were talking last night about whether or not Nymeria would come back later in the series. I sure hope she does. Arya seems to see through her eyes in dreams sometimes, right? Like Bran does but less so?

It was Nymeria who dragged Cat's corpse out of the river for Berric & Co. to find and raise.

OpalCat
04-26-2011, 05:40 PM
Really? I didn't remember that.

lisiate
04-26-2011, 05:46 PM
Do we know that for sure or is it just speculation?

Snarky_Kong
04-26-2011, 05:51 PM
I think Arya sees it in a dream.

DigitalC
04-26-2011, 06:03 PM
No. She was trying to get the best result for herself.

When Joffrey is trying to kill Arya what does she say? "You're spoiling it!" She was concerned about her perfect day, not whether or not her sister would be hurt.

No, the best result for herself would be to side with Joffrey. She tried to make everyone happy.

HazelNutCoffee
04-26-2011, 06:26 PM
I think Arya sees it in a dream.
Yes, she experiences it as a dream and once she knows her mother is dead she stops trying to convince the Hound to take her back to the Twins to rescue Cat.

I don't think Nymeria dragged Cat's corpse out knowing that Beric would find it; I think that was more of a coincidence.

Elendil's Heir
04-27-2011, 09:23 AM
It was Nymeria who dragged Cat's corpse out of the river for Berric & Co. to find and raise.

Wow. I had totally forgotten that.

Barkis is Willin'
04-27-2011, 10:05 AM
I think we are pretty certain that Nymeria is the she-wolf leader of the rogue wolf pack that is terrorizing the riverlands in the later books. I think Arya will come back and from Braavos and hopefully reunite with her wolf. I also think she's only temporarily blind.

I just finished the 4th book last night. I'm very interested in what the heck is happening with Bran and Rickon. We know Bran is on the other side of the wall, but where could Rickon and what's-her-name possibly have gone to?

Also, why was Gendry hidden away as a smith's apprentice? Robert had other known bastards. I forget if that explained in the books or not.

Snarky_Kong
04-27-2011, 10:16 AM
I think Robert had them all taken care of. Eric storm was doing well for himself too, if you recall.

jayjay
04-27-2011, 10:19 AM
Also, why was Gendry hidden away as a smith's apprentice? Robert had other known bastards. I forget if that explained in the books or not.

Was he "hidden away"? I don't think any of Robert's bastards were officially recognized, so they wouldn't have been hanging around the court. Which would have been a bad idea anyway, as Cersei certainly wouldn't have had the forebearance that Cat had for Jon. I think it was more a case of "I'll provide for him, but don't let anyone know his parentage" on Robert's part, as much for his own peace of mind as for Gendy's safety. Also to keep the line of succession clear...Robert was the originator of a dynasty, and didn't want things to fall into Targaryen-style succession confusion this early.

Robert was providing for all of his bastards, wasn't he? Not just Gendy.

Ura-Maru
04-27-2011, 11:05 AM
Edric Storm was officially recognized. Had to, his mother was a noblewoman. At least one other, Mya Stone, was 'unofficially recognized.' He even acted like a father towards her, at least til the war distracted him.

Most of the rest were probably like Gendry and Bara the prostitute's daughter, he had someone more responsible (Jon Aryn, presumably) see that that were provided for, and forgot about them.

A few, like Bella the prostitute, he probably never even knew about.

Cersei did have a couple of them killed, from a serving woman somewhere in the Lannister territories.

--
Odd that Mya got the bastard's name without being officially recognized, though. Might be your mother can give you that on her own.

Ann Hedonia
04-27-2011, 11:06 AM
I hadn't even heard of these books a month ago. When the series started to get some press I thought "these might be interesting", since then I have read all 4 and I loved them......and as soon as I finished one book I picked up the next, which I hardly ever do with long series.

I fell for these books because I am a fan of medieval history and I think I was hooked from the moment I saw the names Stark and Lannister..............very obviously based on the Yorks and Lancasters of the War of the Roses.

My pet peeve in medieval historical novels is characters that think like modern people, which is why I HATE it that they aged the younger characters.......I realize that modern audiences find the idea of parents prostituting their 12 year old daughters distasteful but I prefer historical accuracy. And Catelyn's objections to Nedd's appointment as the King's Hand didn't fit, to me the whole point of the novel is that the characters were in a world where they didn't have much "choice" in life, they are either pawns or players in The Game of Thrones and the way to survival was to become a player rather than a pawn.

Snarky_Kong
04-27-2011, 11:08 AM
All bastards get the Storm/Snow/Rivers/etc. last name, not only the ones that are recognized by their fathers.

Ura-Maru
04-27-2011, 11:13 AM
I thought it was only bastards with noble blood. If you're not recognized, what are you doing even claiming that much?

--
Do people who's aren't the children of at least knights even get last names?

Barkis is Willin'
04-27-2011, 11:26 AM
I thought the books made it seem like Gendry's existence was a secret. Robert's other bastards are recognized. Gendry, on the other hand, was taken by Yoren to keep him safe from Cersei's men, including the Mountain, right? Why?

Snarky_Kong
04-27-2011, 11:28 AM
Hmm.

Does Davos talk about picking a surname, or just about picking his crest? I can't think of any commoners with last names off the top of my head, now taht you mention it.

Dolorous Ed has a last name, doesn't he? Tollet? Is he from a noble house?

Ura-Maru
04-27-2011, 11:37 AM
Robert being a cock-hound was an open secret. Everyone knew he had a bunch of bastards, but most people didn't know who they were.

Gendry probably pretty typical. He was never told who his father was, and was set up with a reasonably promising future. Anyone who really cared could have found out, (his master figured it out without too much trouble, Littlefinger had a laundry list of them) but what does it matter? A bastard has no claim, an unacknowledged bastard has less than that.

I'm reasonably sure Littlefinger mentions that Edric is Robert's only acknowledged bastard.

Gendry was only spirited away when Cersei started having Roberts bastards killed, after he died.

Kylede
04-27-2011, 11:48 AM
Anyone else hoping Nymeria shows up in a later book? (Not just as a rumor, either?)

--Agree that, on TV, the girls' wolves didn't get much "character development" because their roles were rather short.

I actually looked at my copy of the paperback of GOT. The story is a little over 800 pages. The first season is set up to have 10 episodes. Well If you read page 80 and page 160, the story on both (page 80 has Bran begin his climb... while page 160 has the beginning of the chapter that ends with Bran waking up) it really seems that they took 1/10th of the book and made an episode out of it each time. (oddly enough page 240 is in the midst of another Bran chapter...).

Do people who's aren't the children of at least knights even get last names?

Well in the real world if you were the son of the town smith you might be know as "John, the smith's son" and when you grew up and became the smith, you became know as "John the smith"...it is just a short jump to "John Smith" or you might have been "Salvatore, from Blasio ( a village in southern italy)" that gets shorted to "Sal deBlasio" and then "Sal DeBlasio" (a shout out to my grandfather). With out a family name, your profession of home sort of stood in as one until the concept of a family name was more formalized. And If you were from a small village or region, odds were that you were related to everyone anyway, so when family names become formalized, you all had the same last name anyway

Ura-Maru
04-27-2011, 11:49 AM
Davos becomes Davos Seaworth after he becomes a knight, I don't think he had a family name before that.

One possibly is that while any bastard CAN use a bastard's name, there's no reason to do so unless you're claiming noblilty, what with the whole 'bastards are born traitors' thing.

On that note, a last name might just mean that, sometime in the past, you're claiming decent from a knight or better.

Very few of the commoners seem to have, or at least use, last names. Ed might be one, or he might be from a petty noble house. Him and the pompous jailer who claimed dragon blood are the only two I can think of. The others are all experates from the Free Cities, like Gendry's master.

--
Hedge knights often seem to lack family names. A lot of them use Ser Me of Placename.

MOIDALIZE
04-27-2011, 11:51 AM
Last names are pretty pointless unless you're trying to get noticed, or the king needs to keep track of you for tax purposes.

Snarky_Kong
04-27-2011, 12:04 PM
Turns out House Tollett is a house in the Vale.

Captain Amazing
04-27-2011, 12:12 PM
Turns out House Tollett is a house in the Vale.

Loyal to the Royces.

Barkis is Willin'
04-27-2011, 12:26 PM
Robert being a cock-hound was an open secret. Everyone knew he had a bunch of bastards, but most people didn't know who they were.

Gendry probably pretty typical. He was never told who his father was, and was set up with a reasonably promising future. Anyone who really cared could have found out, (his master figured it out without too much trouble, Littlefinger had a laundry list of them) but what does it matter? A bastard has no claim, an unacknowledged bastard has less than that.

I'm reasonably sure Littlefinger mentions that Edric is Robert's only acknowledged bastard.

Gendry was only spirited away when Cersei started having Roberts bastards killed, after he died.

When Robert was dying, Ned mentioned (in his thoughts) a list of Robert's bastards that he would look after as his own children. I don't know how many were officially acknowledged or whatever, but seeing as how none of them have any claim at all, why kill them? Apparently I forgot Cersei having all the bastards killed, but it makes no matter.

The gold cloaks came for Gendry on his way to the Wall in the 2nd book. In the 1st book Gendry mentions that Stannis and others were asking him a lot of questions about his mother, who he believed died when he was little, but he did remember her having yellow hair and working in an ale house. I don't know where I'm going with this other than I just can't wrap my mind around why Gendry was so important that the kingsguard was sent up the road to kill him even though he was an unkowledgable bastard on his way to spend the rest of his life at the Wall.

Captain Amazing
04-27-2011, 12:29 PM
As for Sansa....Sansa is sheltered. Her father was a traditionalist who did his best to instill in her virtues of honesty, honor, loyalty and idealism, and her mother did her best to instill in her the feminine qualities of courtliness, beauty and obedience. And those lessons stuck.

Sansa at the beginning of the series is naive, but it's because her parents wanted her to be. She's actually, of all the Stark children, the most like her father, only without the experiences he's had to toughen him. But I don't think she's dumb. On the contrary, she's smart, and she survives in Joffrey's court (also not restraining myself to the first book) because she is smart. She knows that her only weapons are her courtliness and her naivety, and she, stuck in a place surrounded by her enemies and the plaything of a spoiled, sadistic boy, uses them to her advantage, winning over Sandor Clegane, and, so she thinks, Ser Dontos Hollard.

So, no, I don't think she's stupid or cruel.

Snarky_Kong
04-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Gendry, and the rest of the bastards, are evidence that the Lannister kids are the result of incest and therefore not heirs. Cersei is trying to protect her offspring's claims by getting rid of the evidence agaisnt them.

You think her courtesy is a judged response to get her way? Hell no. The Hound had it right, she's just a trained bird chirping what she was taught.

Ura-Maru
04-27-2011, 12:44 PM
Cersei was having them killed for the same reason Stannis went to look at him with Jon Arryn, and why he later went through so much trouble to get his hands on Edric Stone. All Robert's bastards look like him, and none of his legitimate children do. Anti-Joffery types can point to them and say, 'look, Joffery's not Robert's son!'

Hardly hard evidence, but they don't really need an iron-clad case. Once people seriously start to consider Jamie+Cersei, it's going to start making sense to a lot of people, especially the one who's opinion really matters, Robert. Post-Robert, it still causes a lot of trouble for the Lannisters, and had Stannis won the war, it would have given him legitimacy enough.

--
Not to be confused with the bastards she had killed in Casterley Rock. That was just Cersei being Cersei.

gonzoron
04-27-2011, 01:52 PM
Robert being a cock-hound was an open secret.Unless you mean cocksman or poon-hound, we are reading very different books you and I. (I will not google for ASoIaF slash fanfic... but I suspect Robert might be a cock-hound there...) :eek:

AndyPolley
04-27-2011, 01:58 PM
No talk of Martin apparently finishing Dance With Dragons today?

http://grrm.livejournal.com/212603.html

Snarky_Kong
04-27-2011, 02:04 PM
That's not an official announcement!

Maybe it was just a tough chapter.

Ura-Maru
04-27-2011, 02:05 PM
Now really. He doesn't actually SAY he finished it. He may be claiming to have killed King Kong.

Which is more likely?

:)

Lantern
04-27-2011, 02:10 PM
No talk of Martin apparently finishing Dance With Dragons today?

http://grrm.livejournal.com/212603.html
I dunno. Perhaps it just means he really wants a King Kong vs Dragons fight in the next book.


Anyway I do think we will get the book this year. I just hope the HBO series make him speed up with the remaining two books. I really don't want to wait another ten years.

Elendil's Heir
04-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Twenty quatloos on the big ape.

Bridget Burke
04-27-2011, 02:17 PM
Twenty quatloos on the big ape.

Could you be more specific?

Elysium
04-27-2011, 02:19 PM
Confirmed by his editor just now as well.
http://suvudu.com/2011/04/yes-it-is-done-really.html

Barkis is Willin'
04-27-2011, 03:22 PM
Cersei was having them killed for the same reason Stannis went to look at him with Jon Arryn, and why he later went through so much trouble to get his hands on Edric Stone. All Robert's bastards look like him, and none of his legitimate children do. Anti-Joffery types can point to them and say, 'look, Joffery's not Robert's son!'

Didn't Stannis fetch Edric so that Melisandre could use his blood to make Stannis's wildest dreams come true?

OpalCat
04-27-2011, 03:29 PM
Woohoo! So I guess that publish date is for real then!

Frank
04-27-2011, 03:37 PM
Didn't Stannis fetch Edric so that Melisandre could use his blood to make Stannis's wildest dreams come true?
Yes, she needs royal blood. So far, there are enough people against her to spirit them (Edric, Mace's child, Aemon) safely away. I suspect she'll start casting her beady little eye on Jon next. (That subject should be covered in the next book, actually.)

Bridget Burke
04-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Woohoo! So I guess that publish date is for real then!

OK! I rarely buy new hardbacks, but I just ordered this year's birthday present to myself. Currently 18.81 at Amazon.

Ura-Maru
04-27-2011, 03:53 PM
Yes, she needs blood, but no, that's not why Stannis wanted him. That may be why she pushed him that way, but that wasn't Stannis' plan, at least at first.

Don't know if Jon's blood would count. He refused becoming King of the North, at best he's brother to a king. Though if she knew about Robb naming him heir, that might be close enough . . .

Here's another 'general question' Does anyone think that Mellisandre had anything to do with Joffery, Robb, and Balon Greyjoy's deaths? I'd thought it pretty clear she was scamming, that she'd just foreseen them. Claiming responsibility as evidence for her powers.

Much as she's trying to seduce Jon by repeating his exs catch phrase.

--
Now, she clearly want to use Jon for something, if only to drain his living 'life fire' Most of the guys on the wall have to take care of thier own life-fires . . .

jayjay
04-27-2011, 04:26 PM
Don't know if Jon's blood would count. He refused becoming King of the North, at best he's brother to a king. Though if she knew about Robb naming him heir, that might be close enough . . .

If Jon's actually a Targaryen, he's GOT royal blood already.

Elendil's Heir
04-27-2011, 08:56 PM
Could you be more specific?

The hairy one. Dammit! Still not specific enough....

Frank
04-27-2011, 09:29 PM
Here's another 'general question' Does anyone think that Mellisandre had anything to do with Joffery, Robb, and Balon Greyjoy's deaths? I'd thought it pretty clear she was scamming, that she'd just foreseen them. Claiming responsibility as evidence for her powers.
That's just opportunitism. She's responsible for Renly, and for the castellan of Storm's End (whose name escapes me).

Ann Hedonia
04-28-2011, 10:01 AM
As for Sansa....Sansa is sheltered. Her father was a traditionalist who did his best to instill in her virtues of honesty, honor, loyalty and idealism, and her mother did her best to instill in her the feminine qualities of courtliness, beauty and obedience. And those lessons stuck.

Sansa at the beginning of the series is naive, but it's because her parents wanted her to be. She's actually, of all the Stark children, the most like her father, only without the experiences he's had to toughen him. But I don't think she's dumb. On the contrary, she's smart, and she survives in Joffrey's court (also not restraining myself to the first book) because she is smart. She knows that her only weapons are her courtliness and her naivety, and she, stuck in a place surrounded by her enemies and the plaything of a spoiled, sadistic boy, uses them to her advantage, winning over Sandor Clegane, and, so she thinks, Ser Dontos Hollard.

So, no, I don't think she's stupid or cruel.

I donb't think she's stupid either.........and definitely not cruel. But I really wanted to reach into the pages and bitch-slap her during the scenes after her forced marriage to Tyrion........Tyrion's actions before and after the marriage certainly indicated that he was on her side, it was obvious that neither of them wanted to be in the marriage and the marriage itself ( aside from the political reasons )was basically a way for Cersei and Joffrey to torment them both.

Yet she refused to let down her courtly armour for a minute and refused to have any sort of honest conversation with Tyrion....every attempt he made was met with a "whatever you say, my lord" response and if she had dropped that facade he could've been a valuable ally and a great help to her..........it frustrated the hell out of me.

Barkis is Willin'
04-28-2011, 10:33 AM
I donb't think she's stupid either.........and definitely not cruel. But I really wanted to reach into the pages and bitch-slap her during the scenes after her forced marriage to Tyrion........Tyrion's actions before and after the marriage certainly indicated that he was on her side, it was obvious that neither of them wanted to be in the marriage and the marriage itself ( aside from the political reasons )was basically a way for Cersei and Joffrey to torment them both.

Yet she refused to let down her courtly armour for a minute and refused to have any sort of honest conversation with Tyrion....every attempt he made was met with a "whatever you say, my lord" response and if she had dropped that facade he could've been a valuable ally and a great help to her..........it frustrated the hell out of me.

I see what you're saying, but you rally can't blame Sansa for not opening up to another Lannister. Look what it got her when she was open and honest with Cersei. She coulnd't know if Tyrion truly is an OK guy, so why take the risk? Especially when she thought she had Dontos on her side ready to whisk her away.

All that said, Sansa is quite naive. Especially in the first book. She's getting better, but I think she might be a little too trusting of Littlefinger. He never has anyone's interest in mind but his own.

HazelNutCoffee
04-28-2011, 10:37 AM
Yeah, we as the readers know that Tyrion is a good guy, but Sansa thought Cersei was on her side once before. I don't blame her for not wanting to trust Tyrion completely.

Snarky_Kong
04-28-2011, 12:37 PM
So Telivision Without Pity has a thread for people that never read the books. By the second page they already have R+L=J figured out. Damn.

AuntiePam
04-28-2011, 12:40 PM
So Telivision Without Pity has a thread for people that never read the books. By the second page they already have R+L=J figured out. Damn.

Color me skeptical. That board has more than a few posters who take inordinate pride in saying "I called it!". They might not have read the books, but they probably read the Spoiler thread. :)

Snarky_Kong
04-28-2011, 12:44 PM
Yes, I thought that as well.

The "you have my blood" and not "you are my son" line along with his general secrecy about it are enough to speculate, probably. I don't think I thought about it at all until we figure out that Robert's version of the story is bullshit.

Snarky_Kong
04-28-2011, 12:48 PM
Ok, the next page has "Lyana actually didn't like Robert, she willingly went with Rhaegar and died in childbirth."

Yeah, I think they're full of shit now.

Lantern
04-28-2011, 02:19 PM
All that said, Sansa is quite naive. Especially in the first book. She's getting better, but I think she might be a little too trusting of Littlefinger. He never has anyone's interest in mind but his own.
I predict that Sansa will emerge in the next couple of books as a cunning plotter perhaps even managing to outfit Littlefinger. Basically Sansa, Arya and Bran will each emerge as formidable characters using their different strengths: Sansa with her beauty and manners will excel at court intrigue, Arya will become a skillful assassin, and Bran will become some kind of powerful mystic. The interesting question is whether they will all be on the same side. What role will Zombie Cat play? And I suppose Rickon will emerge as a more active character as well.

HazelNutCoffee
04-28-2011, 07:52 PM
I remember reading somewhere that the fact that Sansa lost her wolf early on will be significant - Martin has dropped hints that the fate of the children are tied to their wolves, and because Lady is dead Sansa can no longer be part of the "pack." I dunno what that means for her future. I just hope she kills Littlefinger someday. :p

HazelNutCoffee
04-28-2011, 07:58 PM
I read a sample chapter from DWD that had this about the wolves, in one of Jon's chapters:

The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood and bone and sinew was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins, but he had lost his other brother, grey-furred and smelling of the sun. Once they had been six, five whimpering blindly in the snow beside their dead mother, and him alone, the pale one, crawling off into the trees on shaky legs as his litter mates sucked cool milk from hard dead nipples. Now only four remained of the six born that day, and one of those was lost and gone.
Speculation about passage:
Robb's wolf and Sansa's wolf are dead, so neither of them are part of the pack now. Who is the lost and gone one? I suppose the obvious answer is Nymeria/Arya, Could it be Rickon/Shaggywolf? Shaggywolf has basically acted nutso from the beginning and has not really demonstrated any pack-like tendencies.

Hellestal
04-28-2011, 08:12 PM
I remember coming to this conclusion myself but it's been so long that I forget why. Why is Tyrion the third head?Two reasons: He dreams of dragons, and he's fucking Tyrion.

(The evidence is scant, but overwhelmingly compelling.)Isn't the baby Aegon? Did Rhaegar name two of his sons Aegon?Ah, you're right. I'm forgetting Maester Aemon's revelation in the latest book: Rhaegar was mistaken about his own family.

Lantern
04-29-2011, 12:06 AM
There was some foreshadowing of Tyrion's interest in dragons in the Game of Thrones when he travels to the wall. I was hoping they would mention it briefly in the episode but they didn't. It's still probably important though and Tyrion could emerge as some kind of dragon trainer. Or if he is on the other side he has to figure out how to take them down. IIRC there was some reference to a high iron content in dragon skeletons or something and I wonder if magnets will play a role.

brocks
04-29-2011, 04:15 AM
The talk about Littlefinger made me go back to AGOT and reread his background, because I didn't remember him clearly (it's been over ten years since I read it).

I was a bit startled to see that he's not yet 30 years old when Cat journeys to King's Landing, which makes Cat even younger than that. In the show, she looks every bit of 50.

DigitalC
04-29-2011, 08:03 AM
So Telivision Without Pity has a thread for people that never read the books. By the second page they already have R+L=J figured out. Damn.

Rhaegar has never even been mentioned. This is pure bs.

gonzoron
04-29-2011, 09:06 AM
Rhaegar has never even been mentioned. This is pure bs.

Not true:

"What her father did to your family, that was unspeakable. What Rhaegar Targaryen did to your sister, the woman I loved." - Robert to Ned at the "picnic" in the 2nd episode.

And he's on the hbo.com "viewer's guide" Targaryen family tree, so.. it's remotely possible.

But I still agree that it's likely BS.

Barkis is Willin'
04-29-2011, 10:10 AM
I read a sample chapter from DWD that had this about the wolves, in one of Jon's chapters:

The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood and bone and sinew was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins, but he had lost his other brother, grey-furred and smelling of the sun. Once they had been six, five whimpering blindly in the snow beside their dead mother, and him alone, the pale one, crawling off into the trees on shaky legs as his litter mates sucked cool milk from hard dead nipples. Now only four remained of the six born that day, and one of those was lost and gone.
Speculation about passage:
Robb's wolf and Sansa's wolf are dead, so neither of them are part of the pack now. Who is the lost and gone one? I suppose the obvious answer is Nymeria/Arya, Could it be Rickon/Shaggywolf? Shaggywolf has basically acted nutso from the beginning and has not really demonstrated any pack-like tendencies.

I've been wondering when we'll find out the consequences of Ned killing Lady, or if there will be any. Robb kept Grey Wind around, but a lot of good it did him. There is some little hint that he made the wolf secondary because his in-laws didn't care for it, but come on.

From the passage, I assumed...

That Arya's wolf was the lost and gone one, just meaning it was seperated from its master. Rickon's wolf is only wild because he was too young to properly train it.

Revenant Threshold
04-29-2011, 10:44 AM
So Telivision Without Pity has a thread for people that never read the books. By the second page they already have R+L=J figured out. Damn. Up until one point, they were actually going with (and some still are) Robert + Lyanna. Considerably more understandable and non-spoiler-based.

Or Ned + Cersei (yeah, I don't know either).

JSexton
04-29-2011, 12:38 PM
It seems to me that HBO has painted themselves into a bit of a corner. The current season is called simply "Game of Thrones". What do they call next season? If they just call it "Clash of Kings", it seems like you'd lose a lot of the casual audience who would have no reason to know that it's a continuation. You can advertise only so much.

Bridget Burke
04-29-2011, 12:51 PM
What did they call the second season of Deadwood? I'd guess they might stick with Game of Thrones II, etc. The name is a bit snappier than A Song of Ice & Fire. And I've heard tell one of the later books might be split into two seasons.

This reader of the series would understand & no non-readers would be confused. (Although I'll bet that, as this season ends, many of those non-readers will head to the bookstore. Or Amazon....)

Drain Bead
04-29-2011, 01:07 PM
Why wouldn't they keep calling it Game of Thrones? It's not like there's anything wrong with the title--who ends up atop the Iron Throne is pretty much the central theme of the series.

DigitalC
04-29-2011, 01:17 PM
It seems to me that HBO has painted themselves into a bit of a corner. The current season is called simply "Game of Thrones". What do they call next season? If they just call it "Clash of Kings", it seems like you'd lose a lot of the casual audience who would have no reason to know that it's a continuation. You can advertise only so much.

They didn't call it Game of Thrones because it's the title of the first book, they called it that because it fits better with the story than the very cryptic and barely even touched upon "Song of Fire and Ice".

Barkis is Willin'
04-29-2011, 01:21 PM
Oh yeah, there still plenty of players left in the Game of Thrones to keep that title.

I don't quite understand all the speculation about Jon's parents. Why couldn't it just be Ned and some chick? Even if he is a Targaryan, what of it? I don't see him leaving the Wall.

But, if Jon's father is someone other than Ned, I wouldn't be surprised if Cat actually did know that. Maybe that's why she was so strongly against Robb legitimizing him; because she knew he wasn't even a Stark.

brocks
04-29-2011, 04:58 PM
Or Ned + Cersei (yeah, I don't know either).

I can see how people who hadn't read the book might come up with that --- the scene where Cersei told Cat that she had had a dark-haired son who didn't survive, and Cat's astonished reaction.

brocks
04-29-2011, 05:06 PM
Even if he is a Targaryan, what of it?

That is a question worth exploring.

The obvious reason for concealing it is so Robert won't kill him, but what happens later if Dany invades with her dragons? Could Jon take them away from her?

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 05:10 PM
Rhaegar has never even been mentioned. This is pure bs.

Right, they thought it was the previous Targ king. They just think Rhaegar and Aerys are the same person. So no, not bs. I'll take your apology at any time.

Post #39, btw.

DigitalC
04-29-2011, 05:18 PM
I don't believe THEM, what the hell does that have to do with you?

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 05:19 PM
The talk about Littlefinger made me go back to AGOT and reread his background, because I didn't remember him clearly (it's been over ten years since I read it).

I was a bit startled to see that he's not yet 30 years old when Cat journeys to King's Landing, which makes Cat even younger than that. In the show, she looks every bit of 50.

Isn't he supposed to be at least 3 or 4 years younger than Cat? In the flashbacks of their growing up together, he is still a boy and small for his age when she is preparing to be married. Lysa is closer to his age, and always had feelings for him, but he ignored her in favor of Cat, until after Cat married Ned and left home (and then Petyr had sex with Lysa and got her pregnant IIRC).

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 05:21 PM
I don't believe THEM, what the hell does that have to do with you?

I misread your quote. Sorry about that.

The guys that speculate don't mention him by name. Just the one that kidnapped Lyana.

Sorry again.

brocks
04-29-2011, 06:10 PM
Isn't he supposed to be at least 3 or 4 years younger than Cat? In the flashbacks of their growing up together, he is still a boy and small for his age when she is preparing to be married.

If you could cite those passages, I'd be glad to look at them. The passages I'm talking about are early in GOT, when Cat is arriving by ship at King's Landing.

“He was my father’s ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were . . . more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr’s life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since.”

A few pages later, Littlefinger's age is given as "still shy of thirty," and he was 15 well before Cat married Ned, so Cat can't have been married more than 14 years, if that.

It just doesn't seem realistic that she would have been over 18 before being engaged, or even that she would be older than an undersized Littlefinger, if he was serious enough about her to fight a duel for her. I would guess 14 as a more realistic age for her at the time of her engagement to Brandon, and so about 28 for her age when AGOT begins.

PigArcher
04-29-2011, 06:17 PM
Random question here. This page: http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Game-of-Thrones-Houses-infographic-Westeros-101-f.jpg (which is apparently not official-from-HBO) lists Jaime as "heir to Casterly Rock", but didn't he give up his inheritance when he joined the Kingsguard? I remember this being a point of contention between him and Twyin: basically it handed everything to Tyrion, who Twyin was determined to not let inherit.

Presumably he could retire from the Kingsguard and be reinstate to his previous status by royal fiat, but baring that, he's not the heir, right?

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 06:24 PM
They serve for life, so he can't retire. But you are correct, Tyrion is heir. Well, I guess Tommen is probably heir now.

Frank
04-29-2011, 06:24 PM
That Arya's wolf was the lost and gone one, just meaning it was seperated from its master. Rickon's wolf is only wild because he was too young to properly train it.
This is the open spoiler thread; you don't have to bother.

Frank
04-29-2011, 06:29 PM
Well, I guess Tommen is probably heir now.
Since Tyrion has now inherited? :D Am I misrembering, or has who is running Casterly Rock been completely glossed over since Tywin's death? Maybe that'll come up in Dragons.

They do seen to be downplaying the Kingsguard so far in the show. (Admittedly, the Kingsguard was fairly minor to this point in the book as well.) It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 06:33 PM
I think Kevan.

Frank
04-29-2011, 06:46 PM
I think Kevan.
For lack of any better option, probably so.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 06:55 PM
If you could cite those passages, I'd be glad to look at them. The passages I'm talking about are early in GOT, when Cat is arriving by ship at King's Landing.

“He was my father’s ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were . . . more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr’s life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since.”

A few pages later, Littlefinger's age is given as "still shy of thirty," and he was 15 well before Cat married Ned, so Cat can't have been married more than 14 years, if that.

It just doesn't seem realistic that she would have been over 18 before being engaged, or even that she would be older than an undersized Littlefinger, if he was serious enough about her to fight a duel for her. I would guess 14 as a more realistic age for her at the time of her engagement to Brandon, and so about 28 for her age when AGOT begins.

I don't have cites - might skim my books later to see if I can provide them.

Cat has definately been married for about 15 years in the first book, because Robb was concieved within weeks after the wedding (might have been the wedding night). This is how I remember the sequence of events (told mostly in flashbacks and various confessions by characters throughout all the books):

This all happens in fairly quick succession, like 6 months time.

*15-year-old Petyr challanges a visiting 20-year-old Brandon to a duel over Cat's hand in marriage

*Brandon wins the duel and injures Petyr fairly badly

*During Petyr's convalesence from that injury (while he's delerious with fever IIRC), Lysa has sex with him cause she's always had a thing for him, and gets pregnant

*Lyanna is "abducted" by Rhaegar and Brandon hears the news on his way to marry Cat- he instead goes to King's Landing to rescue his sister, where he's killed by the Mad King and the Rebellion gets into full swing

*Catelyn marries Ned instead and departs for the other side of the country where Ned impregnates her with Robb and then goes off to war for another year. She never even knew Lysa was pregnant.

*Lord Tully finds out what happened and Petyr is sent back to his father's forever. Lysa is not allowed to marry Petyr, her baby is forcibly aborted to her lasting emotional and possibly physical trauma; this may be the reason she has such trouble with miscarriages - and her father's deathbed regrets, expressed to Cat. She is married in haste and disgrace to Jon Arryn (who both wants Tully support because of the Rebellion, and wants a last-minute heir, and is willing to take an unvirgin girl proved fertile), at the age of 15.

Cat is the eldest Tully child (then Edmure, Lysa is youngest). According to this timeline Petyr and Lysa are of an age and Cat would therefore be a few years older than Petyr, so early to mid-30s in Game of Thrones. Cat would have married Ned when she was around 18 years old, 15 years before The Game of Thrones.

HazelNutCoffee
04-29-2011, 06:56 PM
Tywin was always determined to keep Tyrion from inheriting Casterly Rock. I think he always held out hope that he could eventually give it to Jaime, until Jaime turned it down point blank in ASoS.

As for the wolves, Robb's downfall was foreshadowed in the way he started doubting his wolf's instincts. Grey Wolf correctly smells out the traitors, and Catelyn instinctively knew this. She begged Robb to take heed, but he was rather dismissive about the whole thing.

I've heard some speculation that because Lady had to die for something Nymeria had done, this in some way foreshadows the way Sansa will die. I thought it was an interesting theory.

brocks
04-29-2011, 07:00 PM
[Littlefinger] was 15 well before Cat married Ned, so Cat can't have been married more than 14 years, if that.

And a few pages later, Jon is reflecting that Robb was a better fighter at 14 than the older boys he's training with at the Wall. So Robb is well over 14, and the math doesn't work.

Even if Littlefinger was just one week over 15 at the time of the duel, for there to be time for Brandon to return to Winterfell, then go on his mission to retrieve his sister, then have Ned take his place in the marriage bed with Cat, you have to think at least a couple of months had passed. And to say Littlefinger was "still shy of 30" implies at least a couple of months less than 30, so it's been, at most, 14 years and 7 months since Cat married Ned. Robb must be at least 14 years and two months old for Jon to reflect back on his skills at age 14, and it's very unlikely that a baby born four months premature could survive even today.

So, either Robb is not Ned's, or GRRM wasn't very careful with his chronology.

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 07:04 PM
That fits my recollection as well, although the westeros wiki lists Catelyn as 12 when she was betrothed to Brandon.

Ned was ~21 when they married and Robb was conceived. So either there was a long delay between Cat's engagement and the proposed wedding, or westeros has her age wrong.

DO you guys think there still would have been a war if Brandon wasn't such a hot head? It's only because of him that the Stark's and Arryn's go to war. I don't recall who else was burned by Aerys. A Tully? Without Brandon it's just a scorned Robert pissed at Rhaegar.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 07:05 PM
Yeah, something doesn't check out with the math there. Cat should be mid-30s but Petyr should be early 30s... and he's going gray for goodness sake.

Cat might have been betrothed to Brandon since she was 12, she does mention the feelings she had for Brandon (crush-like) as a young girl.

brocks
04-29-2011, 07:10 PM
*Catelyn marries Ned instead and departs for the other side of the country where Ned impregnates her with Robb and then goes off to war for another year. She never even knew Lysa was pregnant.

Sorry I didn't see your post before I posted above.

But this thing about Ned marrying Cat before going off to war bothers me. If your father and brother had just been murdered, and you were going to avenge them, would you really stop to take the time to marry someone you didn't love? Had Ned even met Cat before he married her?

I understand the family obligation, but surely the vengeance came first --- UNLESS Cat and Brandon had jumped the gun, and she was already pregnant. Then the only solution would be for Ned to quickly marry her on his way, and pretend that her child was his.

That would explain the time discrepancy I outlined in my previous post.

Can anyone confirm or deny this scenario?

Merijeek
04-29-2011, 07:12 PM
I've heard some speculation that because Lady had to die for something Nymeria had done, this in some way foreshadows the way Sansa will die. I thought it was an interesting theory.

Sure, but that's got to be 100% speculation. Stuff like that is perfectly obvious in hindsight but predictions are based on WAGs.

Sansa basically lost her Stark-hood when Lady was killed. Arya lost it when she drove Nymeria off, though she's capable of recovering it, of course. Becoming a (presumably) honorless assassin wouldn't help with that of course.

Bran has kept it. Rickon, like Shaggydog, will probably be a tiny bit feral.

I really wonder if something will come of the whole 'stitching Grey Wind's head onto Robb's body.' It was so specific, and Arya has seen it in her wolf dreams.

-Joe

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 07:15 PM
Sorry I didn't see your post before I posted above.

But this thing about Ned marrying Cat before going off to war bothers me. If your father and brother had just been murdered, and you were going to avenge them, would you really stop to take the time to marry someone you didn't love? Had Ned even met Cat before he married her?

I understand the family obligation, but surely the vengeance came first --- UNLESS Cat and Brandon had jumped the gun, and she was already pregnant. Then the only solution would be for Ned to quickly marry her on his way, and pretend that her child was his.

That would explain the time discrepancy I outlined in my previous post.

Can anyone confirm or deny this scenario?

There are no hints that Robb is not Ned's son. There are many direct references to his conception in fact (between Cat and Ned).

It all goes back to Ned's duties and honor. All these marriages were arranged as ways to forge alliances between houses. Brandon died trying to save the life of Lord Stark, who was also killed by the Mad King. Ned went from being an introverted second son to Lord Stark in one day. On his way from Winterfell to King's Landing to go to war to rescue his sister, avenge the death of his father and brother, and support his foster brother Robert, he stopped by Riverrun and did his duty by marrying his brother's fiancee (who he did not know or love), therefore securing an alliance with the Tullys (and producing an heir as well).

Riverrun is an important part of war strategy due to it's location I believe, but I can't remember exact details...

PigArcher
04-29-2011, 07:16 PM
I've heard some speculation that because Lady had to die for something Nymeria had done, this in some way foreshadows the way Sansa will die. I thought it was an interesting theory.

Well, she's already "dead" in the sense that she's separated herself from the pack, first in her attempt to become a Baratheon/Lannister through marriage to Joffery (and then Tyrion (they're technically still married, no?)) and later by masquerading as Littlefinger's bastard daughter.

On edit: what Merijeek said. She's given up her "Starkhood".

JSexton
04-29-2011, 07:16 PM
Yes, in fact, it's hinted that the only reason Aerys granted Jaime entry to the Kingsguard was to piss off Tywin by robbing him of his heir.

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 07:17 PM
Ok.

Littlefinger-15, Cat-(lets say 18)

We have the duel, Brandon dying, and Cat getting pregnant, all in a very short time. . After Brandon was killed they had to secure alliances before war. Littlefinger-15.1, Cat-18.1

14 years 10 months later Robb is 14 years and a bit, Littlefinger is going to turn 30 very soon and Cat is in her young 30s.

Seems ok to me.

brocks
04-29-2011, 07:21 PM
All these marriages were arranged as ways to forge alliances between houses.

You're right; the alliance aspect makes the sudden marriage plausible.

Still not happy with the timing of Robb's birth, though.

Merijeek
04-29-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm not as numbers-obsessed as the rest of you, but where is everyone coming up with this exact 14 years and 10 months from?

-Joe

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 07:24 PM
It allows Robb to be 14 and Littlefinger to be under 30 and 15 just before the war. I'm not about to go find the exact dates.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 07:25 PM
Ok.

Littlefinger-15, Cat-(lets say 18)

We have the duel, Brandon dying, and Cat getting pregnant, all in a very short time. . After Brandon was killed they had to secure alliances before war. Littlefinger-15.1, Cat-18.1

14 years 10 months later Robb is 14 years and a bit, Littlefinger is going to turn 30 very soon and Cat is in her young 30s.

Seems ok to me.

It's still a bit too close. As someone said (partially) upthread, we need to allow time for Brandon to go back home after wounding Littlefinger, for Brandon to be traveling back to Riverrun to marry Cat (it says specifically in the books that he was on his way to Riverrun to marry Cat when he heard the news about Lyanna), for him to go to King's Landing instead to fight for his sister, for him to be arrested and held there by the Mad King, for Lord Stark to be called to King's Landing (unless he went with Brandon the first time? that cuts it down a bit), for them both to be gruesomely killed in lieu of a trial for treason, for word of their deaths to reach Ned at Winterfell, and for Ned to leave Winterfell to go to war, and marry Cat and impregnate her with Robb on his way.

Littlefinger should be just over 30 years old. I blame the editor.

brocks
04-29-2011, 07:30 PM
I'm not as numbers-obsessed as the rest of you, but where is everyone coming up with this exact 14 years and 10 months from?e

I *am* a numbers geek, and I just went off on a tangent (yuk yuk) when I was trying to find out how old Cat was supposed to be, because she looked about 80 in the second episode on HBO.

I guess it's not that important, and I seem to recall GRRM actively discouraging stuff like this, because it's kind of impossible to not have inconsistencies in a story this complex, with so many POVs. See, for example, the Holy Bible.

But the discrepancies I perceive are all contained within about 20 pages, and very early in the story, so I found that surprising.

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 07:32 PM
All the chapters are POV. Does Cat know Littlefinger's birthday exactly? Maybe he was 14 and not 15.

There, no continuity error.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 07:33 PM
Heh, it works out well enough. Littlefinger is definately younger than her although they were teenagers together.

She should know his birthday if they grew up together since they were children, though.

brocks
04-29-2011, 07:35 PM
All the chapters are POV. Does Cat know Littlefinger's birthday exactly? Maybe he was 14 and not 15.

There, no continuity error.

Not very satisfying. She thought of him as a brother, and lived with him for a long time. Surely she would celebrate his birthday.

JSexton
04-29-2011, 07:36 PM
People misspeak all the time. GRRM's characters are a lot more fallible than most authors'.

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 07:38 PM
She hasn't seen the guy for 15 years. Even if she knows his birthday, she's going to remember if he was 14 or 15? Meh, I have no problem with this.

If a birthday a big deal in Westeros anyway?

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 07:41 PM
“He was my father’s ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were . . . more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr’s life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since.”



Re-reading this, it's clear that this isn't the whole story, so Cat might have been playing a bit loose with the ages as well. Here it says that her betrothal was only announced right before the duel. Brandon wounded Petyr badly enough that he got an infection and was very ill (maybe even close to death) at Riverrun for some time. Petyr was sent away by Lord Tully because of what happened with Lysa, not because of the duel... Cat would never have seen the scar, unless she was around for long enough after that to know Petyr got Lysa pregnant (and I assume Lysa would have hidden that as long as she could). Argh, I can't remember how much Cat knows in the beginning about that situation! I don't have time to reread all these books!

If all inaccuracies hinge on this statement of Cat's, I think we can fairly dismiss it as a misspeaking or deliberate witholding of information from whoever she is speaking to.

Maybe it's an underscoring of just how little she has always cared about Littlefinger, in contrast to his stalkerish obession with her.

brocks
04-29-2011, 07:45 PM
She hasn't seen the guy for 15 years. Even if she knows his birthday, she's going to remember if he was 14 or 15? Meh, I have no problem with this.

If a birthday a big deal in Westeros anyway?

The guy FOUGHT A DUEL for her. He MUST have asked her to marry him many times, and she MUST have very carefully considered his age, in evaluating his prospects.

And as pampered kids growing up in a rich castle, I would think birthdays would be very big deals. Even if not, people were certainly aware of them. A few pages after the Littlefinger scene, Jon is trying to talk his uncle into letting him go on a scouting trip, and says, "I'll be fifteen on my name day."

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 07:49 PM
Why MUST she have considered his age in evaluating his prospects?

Still, it was 15 years ago. She's going to remember the exact age of someone she hasn't spoken to or thought about in 15 years why?

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 07:49 PM
It's important to remember that Cat had no choice about who she would marry, as the daughter of a major Lord with alliances to make. If she had no feelings for Littlefinger and he had told her he intended to marry her, she would have told him to talk to her father. It's most likely that Littlefinger always had (somewhat concealed) feelings for this girl, who was several echelons of nobility above him, but completely lost his head and let his youthful hormones get the best of him when it became clear that this Stark asshole was going to take his Cat away from him, and soon.

brocks
04-29-2011, 07:55 PM
People misspeak all the time. GRRM's characters are a lot more fallible than most authors'.

This raises the question of how objective the narration is.

Obviously we get each character's POV in the correspondingly titled chapters, but does that mean that everything in those chapters is tainted?

Just looking at Jon's first chapter on the Wall, because that's where I had the book open last to look up something else, his attitudes are variously described as "stupid" and "stubborn." There is no indication that those are HIS evaluations. There seems to be an objective narrator, who can get inside Jon's head when he wants to, but can also deliver objective, i.e. true, statements.

Merijeek
04-29-2011, 07:56 PM
She hasn't seen the guy for 15 years. Even if she knows his birthday, she's going to remember if he was 14 or 15? Meh, I have no problem with this.

If a birthday a big deal in Westeros anyway?

That's actually what I was wondering - does anyone really pay much attention to birthdays in Westeros? Apart from that, I have relatives who can't remember my only daughter's age, much less her birthday. I've got no problem believing she wouldn't remember.

Hell, let's all think back to our very best high school teenage friends. Who can remember their birthday?

Outside of those I'm obligated to remember (Mom, wife, daughter) I remember one friend's, and that's because we were friends from first grade through our twenty-fifth birthdays.

And I agree that Cat looks too old. She may be a fantastic actress, but she absolutely does not look the part. Ehle would have been so much better, looks-wise.

-Joe

brocks
04-29-2011, 08:03 PM
Hell, let's all think back to our very best high school teenage friends. Who can remember their birthday?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, let's take an analogy that's a bit closer. Suppose your high school girlfriend had offered you her virginity; that the age of consent in your state was 18; and that she was still just 17 at the time.

How many years would have to pass before you forgot that incident, or the fact that she was under 18 at the time?

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 08:05 PM
Well, any number of male friends I spent plenty of time with but had no sexual interest would have been willing partners of mine in high school. Some even explicitly offered. I don't remember any of their ages, birthdays, or even last names in most cases. Cat was a pretty girl, we're numb to all the young guys we don't care about wanting to have sex with us, and she was at least infatuated if not in love with Brandon before they were betrothed.

Plus we have no idea how open Littlefinger was with Cat about his feelings before the 'mad' duel happened.

brocks
04-29-2011, 08:09 PM
Well, any number of male friends I spent plenty of time with but had no sexual interest would have been willing partners of mine in high school. Some even explicitly offered. I don't remember any of their ages, birthdays, or even last names in most cases.

That's because sex is much more special and meaningful to guys than it is to girls.

But seriously, even if she had no attraction to LF, Cat loved him like a brother. When she found out about the duel, she would have pleaded with him not to do it, and his age would have been a strong pleading point. I can't believe she would forget an incident like that.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 08:11 PM
Well I don't know about that, but I know that most teenage boys and most teenage girls are mostly going to have very different reactions to and memories of the (approximate) situation that Cat and Littlefinger were in. It's understandable that Cat would have glossed over that whole situation to the degree where she didn't even remember Petyr's age at the time. He was less than an annoying kid brother to her.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 08:19 PM
Also, they were raised as closely as siblings, but she does not mention loving him at any time. Petyr is not a kind or likeable person as an adult, it's certainly possible he was not a very likeable child (especially if he was always staring at and stalking Cat and trying to get in her pants when they were teens, eew).

If my memory is correct the duel is described as happening in the spur of the moment away from adults, and Cat supports Brandon fully and in front of Littlefinger (gives him some kind of token of her love even), but in the end begs him not to injure Littlefinger worse than he already has.

The whole thing was probably mostly embarrassing to Cat. She's just been happily betrothed to a handsome, charasmatic, older lord-to-be and capable swordsman who she has a big crush on - and stupid, weirdo kid-foster-brother Petyr declares that he's going to fight him to the death for her hand in 'marriage' (not that them being together could ever happen in any reality she knew)? I'd want to kill Petyr myself, and then sink through the floor.

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 08:32 PM
That's because sex is much more special and meaningful to guys than it is to girls.

But seriously, even if she had no attraction to LF, Cat loved him like a brother. When she found out about the duel, she would have pleaded with him not to do it, and his age would have been a strong pleading point. I can't believe she would forget an incident like that.

No, his age would not have been. The fact that he was much younger would have been an arguing point, but whether he was 14 or 15 or 11 would have made absolutely no difference.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 08:40 PM
Due to her lackluster reaction when she runs into him at King's Landing (and his creepy one), it's clear there isn't any sibling-like affection on either side. Contrast it with Cat's obvious caring for Lysa (even though she's a wack-job) and her close relationship with Edmure.

brocks
04-29-2011, 08:59 PM
So we're all agreed, then?

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 09:06 PM
I guess. Doesn't really matter if people buy the timeline, the fanwanking, or think it was an error. At most it's like a year off. Big whup.

Anybody know off the top of their heads who else was killed along with Brandon and Rickard Stark?

DigitalC
04-29-2011, 09:08 PM
Most of the wedding party i believe, a lot of other nobles and noble sons from winterfell and the riverlands. If I'm not mistaken Brandon and his friends were on their way to the wedding when they heard about Lyanna and took a detour to Kingslanding where they threatened Rhaegar and were arrested, the king then called in their parents. Pretty sure nobody made it out.

Snarky_Kong
04-29-2011, 09:15 PM
Right, but who were they? Some Tullys? I'm trying to decide whether or not Brandon going to King's Landing was need for the war to start.

If he didn't go, and waited to get more information on Lyana and Rhaeger, it'd just have been Robert beating the drum for war, right?

jayjay
04-29-2011, 09:16 PM
Anybody know off the top of their heads who else was killed along with Brandon and Rickard Stark?

Not off the top of my head...I went looking (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert%27s_Rebellion).

Brandon Stark, Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce and Elbert Arryn (Jon Arryn's nephew) were charged with treason, and Rickard and the fathers of the rest came to KL to answer the charges and were all executed, along with 200 Stark soldiers. It was when Aerys called for Ned and Robert to be surrendered to him that Jon Arryn raised his banners and rebelled.

rhubarbarin
04-29-2011, 09:26 PM
I've just spend some time reading (obviously) and apparently there was open rebellion against the Targs for quite some time before the Lyanna incident, but the great houses hadn't formally declared war.

Merijeek
04-29-2011, 10:31 PM
Isn't the 'name day' after a year or two?

-Joe

rhubarbarin
04-30-2011, 07:36 AM
RE: timing and ages, someone on another forum I was reading made an excellent point: since seasons in this world aren't really anything like ours, it would make sense if 'years' were not 12 months either. Maybe they're just 20% longer or so, but that would pretty neatly resolve minor chronology issues, and also works because the characters who are still children seem advanced for their ages past the first book (ie Jon being a commander age 16, Robb's physical and emotional maturity which is not typical for any 15-year-olds I know, Sansa being a lust object for many adult men at 13, Bran's critical thinking skills, etc).

I mean, I know in reality GRRM wanted to put a gap of 5 years into some of the books and that didn't end up working out so he had to keep everyone's ages the same which is also messing up his story line, since the kids are often too young for realism or to do what he originally intended, but thinking of it this way soothes my mind a bit.

Zsofia
04-30-2011, 09:41 AM
One thing I really, really like about the books is that unlike many historical and fantasy historical novels it takes a hell of a long time to get places, which is why I don't really care about this nitpick but am a bit disappointed about it - with all the running around things take longer.

brocks
04-30-2011, 04:22 PM
since seasons in this world aren't really anything like ours, it would make sense if 'years' were not 12 months either..

A valid point, but it smacks of cheating to me. For that matter, the main characters are "true men," not necessarily homo sapiens, so I guess you could do it with three-month gestation periods, too.

Taomist
05-01-2011, 06:05 PM
Even in the series, it was indicated that only a year passed while Ned was away. He left for a year, then came back with another woman's child.' I think it was Cat who said that. Even I was thinking 'damn, that's fast'. It's pretty clear, series-wise, that there is no way it's his kid. What's weird is that I never thought, while reading the books, that it *wasn't* his, I just couldn't figure out the political interest in who the mother was. And yes, I admit to being a little slow on all that. :P

Thanks for the timeline, Rhubarbarin; that helped me a lot. I have never been confused, per se, while reading the books; I just didn't read into them very much because I was so caught up in what was happening NOW, rather than untangling the past.

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