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Apocalypso
02-18-2013, 10:17 AM
Why wasn't any representative of Rohan present at the Council of Elrond?
Boromir represented the rulers of Gondor (the Stewards).
Aragorn represented the line of kings of Gondor (Isildur's heir).
Legolas represented the Elves (I guess because the Elves had the Three?).
Gimli and Gloin represented the Dwarves.
Frodo represented the Hobbits (because a Hobbit found the Ring in the first place and Gandalf had a hunch they were important).

Why wasn't anyone from Rohan present? Were they not invited or did they not send anyone? They were just as much a part of the war as Gondor, and you could say if either Gondor or Rohan fell, the other would not last long.

Which brings up another question. When did Rohan become aware that Sauruman had turned against them? There's some clues in the Unfinished Tales section on the Battles of the Fords of Isen. According to UT, Sauruman began breeding Orcs at Isengard possibly as early as 2990 (Frodo left the Shire with the ring in 3017). So that's quite a long build-up, almost 30 years.
Again according to UT, Isengard was pretty much always regarded as the property of Gondor but was largely neglected except for a skeleton garrison. So Sauruman offered to take the keys to Orthanc and dwell there. After a while he locked the ring of Isengard so the few who did come there would have no idea what was going on (it was pretty isolated at the time).
But the Rohirrim had to have some suspicions well before Saruman launched his forces at the Fords of Isen. When did they become suspicious, and when did they know?

When Eomer took his Edoras (household troops) and destroyed the Orcs that were carrying Merry and Pippen, the orcs were bearing the White Hand. Of course Theoden was being controlled by Grima and Sauruman, and exiled Eomer for treason. But did Eomer know before then that Sauruman was behind this, or were those events THE confirmation of his suspicions?

Johnny Bravo
02-18-2013, 10:24 AM
At the time of the council, wasn't the king of Rohan still under the influence of Grima Wormtongue?

kenobi 65
02-18-2013, 10:41 AM
At the time of the council, wasn't the king of Rohan still under the influence of Grima Wormtongue?

Yes, he was, and I imagine that that, alone, would be a reason for Rohan to have not been there. Even if a messenger had come from Rivendell with an invitation to attend, Grima probably would have sent him away.

kenobi 65
02-18-2013, 10:43 AM
Aragorn represented the line of kings of Gondor (Isildur's heir).

Some better Tolkien scholar than me will probably correct me, but I think that Aragorn's bloodline wasn't widely known at that point (though he and Elrond both certainly knew it). If he was representing any group at the Council, it probably would have been the Rangers of the North.

Apocalypso
02-18-2013, 10:48 AM
At the time of the council, wasn't the king of Rohan still under the influence of Grima Wormtongue?

I think so. Gandalf was in Rohan before the council (that's when he befriended Shadowfax). And it's possible that Gandalf knew about Grima/Saruman's mind control and told Elrond not to invite the Rohirrim lest they spill the beans to Saruman.
I can't remember whether Saruman imprisoned Gandalf on Orthanc before or after the council. I want to say it happened while Frodo was still in the Shire, long before the council, but I can't get the timeline straight.

Sauron
02-18-2013, 10:50 AM
It's been a while since I've read Fellowship, but I don't think they'd planned to have a big council meeting with all the Free Peoples. It just so happened that all these folks had come to Rivendell at roughly the same time to get advice or guidance from Elrond.

I don't remember why Gimli and Gloin were there, but Boromir had come to Imladris (Rivendell) to find an answer to the dream-riddle "seek the Sword that was Broken." Legolas had come to tell Elrond (and I guess Aragorn) that Gollum had escaped from the Wood-Elves of Mirkwood. The hobbits, of course, were being escorted by Aragorn to bring the Ring to Elrond. And it was almost a miracle that Gandalf was there at all, since Saruman had locked him up and then he'd had to fight some of the Ringwraiths at Weathertop.

Since everybody was there anyway, Elrond said, "Hey, let's order in pizza and have a talk."

RTFirefly
02-18-2013, 10:56 AM
Why wasn't anyone from Rohan present? Were they not invited or did they not send anyone? Nobody was invited. I don't have my copy of FotR handy, but my recollection is that Legolas, Boromir, Gimli and Gloin simply showed up at Rivendell looking for guidance concerning the assorted threats they faced, or portents they'd seen. Either Elrond or Gandalf says something to the effect that those who were present at Rivendell when Frodo awakened and was well enough to participate in the Council were the ones called to decide what to do about the Ring and the threat of Mordor.

ETA: Beaten to it by the Dark Lord himself! I knew I shouldn't have assumed the Ring had washed down Anduin to the Sea.

Stormcrow
02-18-2013, 11:12 AM
It's been a while since I've read Fellowship, but I don't think they'd planned to have a big council meeting with all the Free Peoples. It just so happened that all these folks had come to Rivendell at roughly the same time to get advice or guidance from Elrond.

This is my take on it as well. Also, if anyone represented Rohan at the Council it would have been Boromir - Rohan was a vassal state (or at least long-standing subordinate ally) of Gondor.

Chronos
02-18-2013, 11:17 AM
Since everybody was there anyway, Elrond said, "Hey, let's order in pizza and have a talk." And the delivery guys can never find the Hidden Vale in 30 minutes or less, so it's always free. <grumbleelvesgrumble>

Balance
02-18-2013, 11:52 AM
I don't remember why Gimli and Gloin were there....
No? It was your doing, you know. You and your excessively persistent door-to-door ring salesmen. :p

Glóin was there to warn Bilbo that Sauron was looking for him, and to find out what was up with the ring he was after. Gimli was along for the ride.
Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dain, but not from Moria -- from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dain to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "For Sauron knows," said he, "that one of these was known to you on a time."
<snip>
And so I have been sent at last by Dain to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring, this least of rings. Also we crave the advice of Elrond. For the Shadow grows and draws nearer.

Sauron
02-18-2013, 12:06 PM
No? It was your doing, you know. You and your excessively persistent door-to-door ring salesmen. :p

You'll have to forgive me. Several traumatic experiences occurred after the Council, and as a result my memory isn't what it once was.

As for the horseman sent to Dain, I was just trying to return the waistcoat buttons Bilbo lost when he left Moria. They were nice buttons, and I thought he'd want them back. Maybe even set up a trade of sorts -- if he had something he'd picked up on his journeys he shouldn't have, why then, I'd be happy to take it off his hands in exchange for the buttons. Sort of a finder's fee.

Elendil's Heir
02-18-2013, 12:23 PM
Another thread on the Council of Elrond that may be of interest: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=339948

tullsterx
02-18-2013, 01:01 PM
And the delivery guys can never find the Hidden Vale in 30 minutes or less, so it's always free. <grumbleelvesgrumble>

LOL. And I've heard that Elrond is a terrible tipper. Cheap and sneaky elveses.

MrDibble
02-18-2013, 01:28 PM
Was the Council something that was officially "called" as such? Boromir was there because of a dream, and the dwarves because someone nasty had been asking after Bilbo in Erebor (and also were after news of Moria), Legolas to relate that Gollum was escaped - all very coincidental, yes, but I don't recall any mention of invites...

Balance
02-18-2013, 02:02 PM
Was the Council something that was officially "called" as such? Boromir was there because of a dream, and the dwarves because someone nasty had been asking after Bilbo in Erebor (and also were after news of Moria), Legolas to relate that Gollum was escaped - all very coincidental, yes, but I don't recall any mention of invites...
Only in the sense that people who already happened to be on hand were invited to the meeting. No one was summoned to Rivendell by Elrond for the purpose of meeting to discuss the Ring. You could possibly argue that Frodo was "summoned" via Aragorn, but the purpose of that was to get the Ring into the best shelter they could manage, not to attend a meeting.

Attendees at the Council of Elrond:

Elrond (duh)--He lives there.
Erestor--Also lives there, and is an advisor. Showing up to meetings is basically his job.
Glorfindel--He lives there, too, and is the professional badass who tangled with the Nine over Frodo.
Galdor--Happened to be there on an errand from Cirdan, so he got dragooned into representing the Grey Havens on important questions like, "What if we just pitch the damn thing back into the sea?"
Glóin--Addressed above; he was there to talk to Bilbo and find out about a ring.
Gimli--He was traveling with his father.
Legolas--He was looking for Aragorn and or Gandalf to tell them about Gollum's escape, and Rivendell was the best place to get word to the two wanderers.
Boromir--He was looking for a dream interpreter, and Freud hadn't been born yet.
Aragorn--Rivendell is his foster home and base of operations, and he escorted the hobbits there.
Gandalf--He was there to meet the hobbits and plan what to do about the Ring, but he was not summoned.
Bilbo--Another resident, and one with an obvious interest in the Ring.
Frodo--Fled to Rivendell for shelter and healing.
Sam--He was there to kill anyone who tried anything with Frodo.

muldoonthief
02-18-2013, 02:08 PM
The movie version made it sound like it was a planned event, with all races being invited.

Strangers from distant lands, friends of old, you've been summoned here to answer the threat of Morrrdorrr.

Also, no mention of messengers from Sauron to the dwarves, or Boromir's dream.

And in the extended version of Two Towers, Denethor tells Boromir that Elrond has called a meeting, and he wants Boromir to attend, and get the Ring for him.

Balance
02-18-2013, 02:13 PM
The movie version made it sound like....
That's because the movie is wrong, wrong, wrong, and the paratemporal bee deployment squad is preparing to address this issue posthaste.
</Skald>
;)

kenobi 65
02-18-2013, 03:00 PM
Sam--He was there to kill anyone who tried anything with Frodo.

Nice reference (http://www.ealasaid.com/misc/vsd/frodo.html). (Warning: link is mildly NSFW.)

well he's back
02-18-2013, 03:00 PM
Balance is right on this point. The movie version is wrong, wrong, wrong. But I understand why they changed it to an official 'called' meeting - too much exposition necessary otherwise. (understand does not mean approve, of course).

Lasciel
02-18-2013, 03:58 PM
The movie had to alter the gist of that "chance meeting" to allow for an audience of umpity-millions of people who had never even read the Hobbit, let alone LoTR before.

Therefore, since they don't know the source material or the history behind the story, they couldn't be expected to understand or give a shit why all these random-assed people of different races "just happened" to show up all at the same time as the Ring, and subsequently got dragged into it all.

Having Elrond "call a meeting" is much easier, glossier, and quicker to understand than the original version, which Balance has been doing a superb job of explicating. Since the "meeting" isn't the point of the film (the beginnings of the company and their first travels is) there's no need to get into all the hoary details of the circumstances of the meeting itself.

On the one hand, I sympathize with the need to condense and clarify, but on the other, that "clarity" often leads to questions like this about why some people/countries got snubbed, when in reality there was no grand plan, and therefore no snubbing.

Ethilrist
02-18-2013, 04:04 PM
Only in the sense that people who already happened to be on hand were invited to the meeting. No one was summoned to Rivendell by Elrond for the purpose of meeting to discuss the Ring. You could possibly argue that Frodo was "summoned" via Aragorn, but the purpose of that was to get the Ring into the best shelter they could manage, not to attend a meeting.

Attendees at the Council of Elrond:

Legolas--He was looking for Aragorn and or Gandalf to tell them about Gollum's escape

Man, I hated that guy... always muttering about his damn ring...

Frodo--Fled to Rivendell for shelter and healing.
Sam--He was there to kill anyone who tried anything with Frodo.

You forgot...

Merry--Was not invited
Pippin--Was not invited


This is my take on it as well. Also, if anyone represented Rohan at the Council it would have been Boromir - Rohan was a vassal state (or at least long-standing subordinate ally) of Gondor.
Well, where was Gondor when... oh, never mind.

the_diego
02-18-2013, 06:38 PM
Elrond himself said the attendees of the meeting came together "by chance, it seems." The permanent members of the council, I assume, are Elrond, Erestor, Gandalf, and Aragorn.

Balance
02-18-2013, 06:49 PM
You forgot...

Merry--Was not invited
Pippin--Was not invited

My list consists of those who attended the Council. Movie scene-compression notwithstanding, Merry and Pippin did not. In fact, Pippin was rather incensed that Sam was being "rewarded" for sneaking in.
Later that day the hobbits held a meeting of their own in Bilbo's room. Merry and Pippin were
indignant when they heard that Sam had crept into the Council, and had been chosen as Frodo's
companion.
`It's most unfair,' said Pippin. `Instead of throwing him out, and clapping him in chains, Elrond
goes and rewards him for his cheek!'

Reno Nevada
02-19-2013, 11:53 AM
Elrond himself said the attendees of the meeting came together "by chance, it seems." The permanent members of the council, I assume, are Elrond, Erestor, Gandalf, and Aragorn.

Actually, there seems to be a "White Council" that includes Elrond, Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, and probably Radagast and Cirdan. One of the things Gandalf was doing was telling Elrond not to renew Saruman's invitation.

Elrond would not consider some 80-year-old great-to-the-nth nephew as a "permanent" member.

Elendil's Heir
02-19-2013, 12:05 PM
Here's Wiki on the White Council; I agree that Aragorn was not a member - nor, indeed, was any Man (by the Middle-earth definition): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Council

Skald the Rhymer
02-19-2013, 05:46 PM
Why wasn't any representative of Rohan present at the Council of Elrond?


Despite the way things are presented in the movies, Elrond did not summon anyone to council except for persons already present in his household. Remember, LotR takes place in a quasi-medieval society. There was no way to send detailed messages other than by ship, horseback, and shank's mare. It took Boromir literally months--it might have been a year, I haven't my books at hand--to travel from Minas Tirith to Imladris (i.e., Rivendell). A trip to and from Rohan wouldn't have taken as long, but it would still have been a stretch.

The persons present at Elrond's council had all come to Imladris for their own reasons. The fact that they were present at the same time was is best explained by Providence.

One of the things that annoyed me about the extended versions of the films (all inferior to the theatrical version, in my opinion) was the scene in which Denethor goes to one of his sons and says that he's gotten a message from Elrond summoning everyone to council. I thought, "Really? Did he send an email, or are the elves still using fax machines?"

Malacandra
02-19-2013, 06:42 PM
You'll have to forgive me. Several traumatic experiences occurred after the Council, and as a result my memory isn't what it once was.

As for the horseman sent to Dain, I was just trying to return the waistcoat buttons Bilbo lost when he left Moria. They were nice buttons, and I thought he'd want them back. Maybe even set up a trade of sorts -- if he had something he'd picked up on his journeys he shouldn't have, why then, I'd be happy to take it off his hands in exchange for the buttons. Sort of a finder's fee.

Moria, you say? Seems Bilbo economised with the truth even more than we thought. That scurrilous little book of his never put him within a hundred miles of Moria.

Skald the Rhymer
02-19-2013, 06:55 PM
Moria, you say? Seems Bilbo economised with the truth even more than we thought. That scurrilous little book of his <snip>

I'm going to need you you to take that back. Freely and of your own will, of course. Don't be afraid of that guy with the shotgun, he's around your place on other business.

Balance
02-19-2013, 07:01 PM
Despite the way things are presented in the movies, Elrond did not summon anyone to council except for persons already present in his household. Remember, LotR takes place in a quasi-medieval society. There was no way to send detailed messages other than by ship, horseback, and shank's mare.
Oh, good, you're here. This bee-launcher was getting heavy.

Now, to be scrupulously fair, Elrond could conceivably have had access to more rapid means of communication than were available to ordinary folks in Middle Earth. The Eagles, for instance, could have carried messages...if he could contact them, and they were willing to do so (neither of which is a given). A summons could probably be justified, if you really wanted to, though it would have been a very big (and noticeable) deal.

A more telling point, I think, is that the elven roster doesn't particularly make sense if Elrond called people to Rivendell specifically for the Council. Why would he have summoned representatives from the Grey Havens and Mirkwood, but not Lorien? Surely Galadriel should have had a representative there, if the Council were planned so far in advance.

Skald the Rhymer
02-19-2013, 07:18 PM
Oh, good, you're here. This bee-launcher was getting heavy.


You were supposed to be issued the mounted version; the hand-held version is issued only to Ents. Please contact the armory and ask for the correct model; use my name, and feel free to threaten murder.


Now, to be scrupulously fair, Elrond could conceivably have had access to more rapid means of communication than were available to ordinary folks in Middle Earth. The Eagles, for instance, could have carried messages...if he could contact them, and they were willing to do so (neither of which is a given). A summons could probably be justified, if you really wanted to, though it would have been a very big (and noticeable) deal.

Gwaihir is not running a messenger service. Even if he were, it's ridiculous to imagine that he and say, Landroval and that third Eagle whose name I can never remember would have flown from Imladris to Minas Tirith, Meduseld, and the Lonely Mountain, delivered a summons to council, and then not carried people back. In for a penny, in for a pound!

The extended edition thing of a summons to council is an example of presentism. It's Jackson either failing to come out of the modern mindset in his screenwriting, or thinking that the viewer would not be able to do so (i.e., not giving the viewers enough credit.) I love both Tower theatrical version, but the presence of the scene I alluded to above in the EE is part of why that version sucks eggs.

Kimstu
02-19-2013, 07:29 PM
The movie version made it sound like it was a planned event, with all races being invited.


Strangers from distant lands, friends of old, you've been summoned here to answer the threat of Morrrdorrr.


I retconned that as Elrond merely "summoning" them to attend the council itself since they happened to be at Rivendell, rather than inviting them to Rivendell in the first place specifically for the purpose of attending a council.

And in the extended version of Two Towers, Denethor tells Boromir that Elrond has called a meeting, and he wants Boromir to attend, and get the Ring for him.

Oh. Well, there goes that idea.

Skald the Rhymer
02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
I retconned that as Elrond merely "summoning" them to attend the council itself since they happened to be at Rivendell, rather than inviting them to Rivendell in the first place specifically for the purpose of attending a council.

Nitpick: you mean "fanwanked" here, not retconned.

Balance
02-19-2013, 07:38 PM
Gwaihir is not running a messenger service. Even if he were, it's ridiculous to imagine that he and say, Landroval and that third Eagle whose name I can never remember would have flown from Imladris to Minas Tirith, Meduseld, and the Lonely Mountain, delivered a summons to council, and then not carried people back. In for a penny, in for a pound!

The extended edition thing of a summons to council is an example of presentism. It's Jackson either failing to come out of the modern mindset in his screenwriting, or thinking that the viewer would not be able to do so (i.e., not giving the viewers enough credit.) I love both Tower theatrical version, but the presence of the scene I alluded to above in the EE is part of why that version sucks eggs.
I don't disagree, by any means. My point was simply that there were factors in play that would not have been present in a truly medieval setting, and could have been used to justify a summons. They manifestly weren't, of course, but we already knew that.

Oh, and I think the Eagles would have had trouble ferrying people long distances, even if they had been willing to stoop to such a task. Gwaihir told Gandalf that he couldn't carry him very far, and dropped him off at Edoras, which was...what, a few days away by horse? The only people Eagles carry any substantial distance are a couple of starved hobbits and a recently reborn wizard who was noted to be "light as a feather".

Kimstu
02-19-2013, 07:43 PM
Nitpick: you mean "fanwanked" here, not retconned.

Huh. Before having to go and look up the difference just now, I don't think I ever quite realized that fanwanking and retconning are not quite synonymous in that a retcon is an official reinterpretation for the sake of consistency performed by someone who's actually creating a received version of the material, such as a writer or producer. Thanks, Skald.

Skald the Rhymer
02-19-2013, 07:46 PM
I don't disagree, by any means. My point was simply that there were factors in play that would not have been present in a truly medieval setting, and could have been used to justify a summons. They manifestly weren't, of course, but we already knew that.

Oh, and I think the Eagles would have had trouble ferrying people long distances, even if they had been willing to stoop to such a task. Gwaihir told Gandalf that he couldn't carry him very far, and dropped him off at Edoras, which was...what, a few days away by horse? The only people Eagles carry any substantial distance are a couple of starved hobbits and a recently reborn wizard who was noted to be "light as a feather".

Take your facts back to Wales they belong, you hoser. :D

I agree that the Eagles would have been very unlikely to carry Boromir, Eomer, etc. any great distance except in the most dire of circumstances. I just can't buy that Elrond had any quick methods of communication routinely available, especially given the brevity between his becoming aware that the One Ring had been found and the timing of his Council. If nothing else, to use the Eagles as such a messenger service would require sending someone to find them in the first place It's not like they were nesting at Imladris.

Skald the Rhymer
02-19-2013, 07:47 PM
Huh. Before having to go and look up the difference just now, I don't think I ever quite realized that fanwanking and retconning are not quite synonymous in that a retcon is an official reinterpretation for the sake of consistency performed by someone who's actually creating a received version of the material, such as a writer or producer. Thanks, Skald.

You're welcome, and I have had the minions remove the customary gratuity from your home, along with anything in the fridge that struck their fancy.

Kimstu
02-19-2013, 08:05 PM
You're welcome, and I have had the minions remove the customary gratuity from your home, along with anything in the fridge that struck their fancy.

:eek: Oops. Um, your minions aren't required to report to the authorities anything that might be... of interest, are they?

If not, then no problem! Have an extra gratuity!

carnivorousplant
02-19-2013, 08:20 PM
:eek: Oops. Um, your minions aren't required to report to the authorities anything that might be... of interest, are they?

If not, then no problem! Have an extra gratuity!

Silver bullets.

This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between posts. Please try again in 2 seconds.

Malacandra
02-20-2013, 02:18 AM
I'm going to need you you to take that back. Freely and of your own will, of course. Don't be afraid of that guy with the shotgun, he's around your place on other business.

Pure irony. Bilbo and the dwarves never went near Moria and Sauron knows it, so I suggest for comedic effect that the discrepancy must be attributed to Bilbo's mendacity rather than to the Dark Lord's.

It would never occur to me to fear a man with a shotgun; even if any hnau were bent enough to harbour ill intent towards me, you know well that Maleldil has not granted the necessary power to them or to you. But so long as he does not menace those whom I cherish, I see no need to cause his body to adopt different movements.

Dervorin
02-20-2013, 07:13 AM
Gwaihir is not running a messenger service. Even if he were, it's ridiculous to imagine that he and say, Landroval and that third Eagle whose name I can never remember
You're thinking of Melendor (the Swift, in case you were wondering) - and the only reason I know this is that I name all my computers after LotR characters, and my current laptop is called Meneldor.


Oh, and I think the Eagles would have had trouble ferrying people long distances, even if they had been willing to stoop to such a task. Gwaihir told Gandalf that he couldn't carry him very far, and dropped him off at Edoras, which was...what, a few days away by horse? The only people Eagles carry any substantial distance are a couple of starved hobbits and a recently reborn wizard who was noted to be "light as a feather".
However, in The Hobbit, they lugged all the Dwarves (including the distinctly un-featherweight Bombur) all the way from the Misty Mountains to the Carrock, so clearly they are capable of some long-distance haulage when required. I don't think they would have trouble ferrying men around, even those of such advanced muscular development as Aragorn or Boromir.

Perhaps not for weeks on end, but I think an eagle with a 75-foot wingspan wouldn't have much trouble carting around a man. Alternatively, of course, they could always grip it by the husk. Or just use a standard creeper, held under the dorsal guiding feathers. Simple!

jayjay
02-20-2013, 07:48 AM
However, in The Hobbit, they lugged all the Dwarves (including the distinctly un-featherweight Bombur) all the way from the Misty Mountains to the Carrock, so clearly they are capable of some long-distance haulage when required. I don't think they would have trouble ferrying men around, even those of such advanced muscular development as Aragorn or Boromir.

The distance between Rohan or Gondor and Rivendell is CONSIDERABLY longer than the distance from the Goblin-Gate to the Carrock. By several orders of magnitude.

eburacum45
02-20-2013, 07:50 AM
And the delivery guys can never find the Hidden Vale in 30 minutes or less, so it's always free. <grumbleelvesgrumble>

This pizza-delivery related quip made me realise that Elrond's relationship to Aragorn is similar to that between a certain pizza-delivery-boy and his distant nephew.

Elrond is Aragorn's 62 x great uncle, apparently, while Fry is Farnsworth's 30 x great uncle. Aragorn's family tree is of course many thousands of years longer than Farnsworth's, but his ancestors lived longer.

Skald the Rhymer
02-21-2013, 08:42 PM
:eek: Oops. Um, your minions aren't required to report to the authorities anything that might be... of interest, are they? !

Why on Earth would the minions talk to the cops? Even if for some reason I found it needful to frame you, they'd have brought the contraband themselves, planted it, and then arranged an anonymous tiip.

carnivorousplant
02-21-2013, 08:55 PM
Why on Earth would the minions talk to the cops? Even if for some reason I found it needful to frame you, they'd have brought the contraband themselves, planted it, and then arranged an anonymous tiip.

I can't decide if you've been reading The Last Ring Bearer or Bored of the Rings.

Skald the Rhymer
02-21-2013, 09:06 PM
I can't decide if you've been reading The Last Ring Bearer or Bored of the Rings.

I've never even heard of the former, and couldn't make it through the latter. I'm not a fan of parodies.

Qadgop the Mercotan
02-21-2013, 09:18 PM
I've never even heard of the former, and couldn't make it through the latter. I'm not a fan of parodies.
:eek:

Don't both these stanzas speak to you?
A Elbereth Gilthoniël
o menel palan-díriël,
le nallon sí di'-nguruthos!
A tíro nin, Fanuilos!

Grundig blaupunkt luger frug
watusi snarf wazoo
Nixon Dirksen nasahist
Rebozo boogaloo!

Everwhite vs. Everclear! :D

carnivorousplant
02-21-2013, 10:08 PM
I've never even heard of the former, and couldn't make it through the latter. I'm not a fan of parodies.

Ah, the Rooskie Commie Last Ring Bearer.
Shame!

Colibri
02-21-2013, 11:18 PM
Don't both these stanzas speak to you?

My favorite line: "Pyongyang panmunjom," shouted the narc chieftain.

Airk
02-22-2013, 10:50 AM
Hated Bored of the Rings so much. There were maybe three times I smiled during the whole damn book.

Mrs. Cake
02-22-2013, 11:27 AM
You probably had to be 15 when you read it. BotR quotes probably ate most of the last available long-term memory space in my brain.

Qadgop the Mercotan
02-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Hated Bored of the Rings so much. There were maybe three times I smiled during the whole damn book.
May I ask how old you are? I tend to think that appreciation of BOTR often depends in part on whether you came of age during the 60's. The book employed that era's cultural trends and memes (NOT the petty dwarf!) pretty well. But it would fall flat for those not familiar with jargon and imagery it invoked.

In many ways, it's now as dated as a 1990's SNL skit. (The '70s skits are still classic, of course!)

Kimstu
02-22-2013, 11:42 AM
Why on Earth would the minions talk to the cops? Even if for some reason I found it needful to frame you, they'd have brought the contraband themselves, planted it, and then arranged an anonymous tiip.

You relieve my mind immeasurably. Thanks!

Apocalypso
02-22-2013, 01:42 PM
Yeah I remembered Elrond and I think Gandalf discussing who else would or would not come to the council and Tom Bombadil and several others "would not come" and I must have conflated teh book with the movie, which we watched a couple days ago.
May I ask how old you are? I tend to think that appreciation of BOTR often depends in part on whether you came of age during the 60's. The book employed that era's cultural trends and memes (NOT the petty dwarf!) pretty well. But it would fall flat for those not familiar with jargon and imagery it invoked.

In many ways, it's now as dated as a 1990's SNL skit. (The '70s skits are still classic, of course!)

I was read BOTR when I was a teen in the late 80's and it still makes me laugh just thinking about Arrowshirt's armor falling off and getting his sword stuck in the ceiling when he's striking a dramatic pose.
Also (from distant memory):
"You have ridden far"
"You are in much danger"
"You leave at dawn"
or something like that....<puts BOTR on re-reading list>

carnivorousplant
02-22-2013, 03:58 PM
"you cash in your chips
on page eigthy-eight."

Qadgop the Mercotan
02-22-2013, 04:01 PM
"Many good men and true had fallen: the brothers Handlebar and Hersheybar, and Eorache's uncle, the trusty Eordrum."

Skald the Rhymer
02-22-2013, 04:23 PM
Yeah I remembered Elrond and I think Gandalf discussing who else would or would not come to the council and Tom Bombadil and several others "would not come" and I must have conflated teh book with the movie, which we watched a couple days ago.


As I think on it, you're right; one of the Elf-lords does allow himself a moment's regret that they didn't call Bombadil, and Gandalf replies that it doesn't matter; he wouldn't have come and giving him the Ring to keep would have been a serious mistake.

Balance
02-22-2013, 05:59 PM
As I think on it, you're right; one of the Elf-lords does allow himself a moment's regret that they didn't call Bombadil, and Gandalf replies that it doesn't matter; he wouldn't have come and giving him the Ring to keep would have been a serious mistake.
It was Elrond himself, in fact, with Erestor on the follow-up question. Bombadi's home l is not as far away as many of the others--around 450 miles, much of it on decent roads. (Minas Tirith, on the other hand, would be about 1200 miles away by way of the Gap of Rohan.) A messenger on a fast horse could probably reach the Old Forest in about 5 days. Return time depends on Tom's response and travel speed. The messenger could return with Tom's refusal, but (barring magical elf-steed stamina) it would take longer than the initial leg; the horse, at least, would need rest. Figure 12 days for a round trip, and perhaps 15 or more if Tom rides along.

Frodo spent 4 days recuperating between his arrival and the Council. If Elrond had decided immediately upon his arrival to call a Council, and remembered and sent a messenger for Bombadil at once, they would have had to wait an additional 8 days to know whether or not he was coming, and 11 days if they expected him to show. Given the situation, I don't think he would have been willing to wait that long.

So, it was an odd thing for Elrond to say, unless...

1) Elven messengers are faster than I'm estimating. (Entirely possible.)

2) He actually decided to call the Council well before Frodo arrived, but not months in advance. Perhaps when Gandalf arrived, or even earlier, once he took account of all the far travelers that had gathered.

3) He has some faster way of communicating than sending messengers out on horseback, a notion not supported by the text and evidently annoying to Skald, so I'll leave it be.


But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older than the old. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless. But many another name he has since been given by other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men,and other names beside. He is a strange creature, but maybe I should have summoned him to our Council.'
`He would not have come,' said Gandalf.
`Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' asked Erestor. `It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.'
`No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. `Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.'
`But within those bounds nothing seems to dismay him,' said Erestor. `Would he not take the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?'
`No,' said Gandalf, `not willingly. He might do so, if all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe guardian; and that alone is answer enough.'

Skald the Rhymer
02-22-2013, 06:12 PM
It was Elrond himself, in fact, with Erestor on the follow-up question. Bombadi's home l is not as far away as many of the others--around 450 miles, much of it on decent roads. (Minas Tirith, on the other hand, would be about 1200 miles away by way of the Gap of Rohan.) A messenger on a fast horse could probably reach the Old Forest in about 5 days. Return time depends on Tom's response and travel speed. The messenger could return with Tom's refusal, but (barring magical elf-steed stamina) it would take longer than the initial leg; the horse, at least, would need rest. Figure 12 days for a round trip, and perhaps 15 or more if Tom rides along.

Frodo spent 4 days recuperating between his arrival and the Council. If Elrond had decided immediately upon his arrival to call a Council, and remembered and sent a messenger for Bombadil at once, they would have had to wait an additional 8 days to know whether or not he was coming, and 11 days if they expected him to show. Given the situation, I don't think he would have been willing to wait that long.

So, it was an odd thing for Elrond to say, unless...

1) Elven messengers are faster than I'm estimating. (Entirely possible.)

2) He actually decided to call the Council well before Frodo arrived, but not months in advance. Perhaps when Gandalf arrived, or even earlier, once he took account of all the far travelers that had gathered.

3) He has some faster way of communicating than sending messengers out on horseback, a notion not supported by the text and evidently annoying to Skald, so I'll leave it be.

It's the notion that Elrond sent a message to DENETHOR that I find annoying. (Plus I'm a curmudgeon.)

But I also get annoyed when movies in general compress action down to ridiculous lengths. Jackson's movies don't generally fall victim to that, incidentally. There's plenty of lines to establish that we're only seeing the highlights of the heroes' journey, not the entire thing. The hobbits change clothes between Brandywine and Bree, for instance; it was obvious to me, even having not read the book yet, that they'd stopped off somewhere in between (likely at Merry's home) to better prepare themselves for the journey. After Frodo is injured the first time, Sam comments that it's three days to Rivendell; Gandalf says that it'll take 40 days simply to get to the Misty Mountains.

Et cetera.

squeegee
02-22-2013, 06:38 PM
It's the notion that Elrond sent a message to DENETHOR that I find annoying. (Plus I'm a curmudgeon.)

But I also get annoyed when movies in general compress action down to ridiculous lengths. Jackson's movies don't generally fall victim to that, incidentally. There's plenty of lines to establish that we're only seeing the highlights of the heroes' journey, not the entire thing. The hobbits change clothes between Brandywine and Bree, for instance; it was obvious to me, even having not read the book yet, that they'd stopped off somewhere in between (likely at Merry's home) to better prepare themselves for the journey. After Frodo is injured the first time, Sam comments that it's three days to Rivendell; Gandalf says that it'll take 40 days simply to get to the Misty Mountains.

Et cetera.

In the LOTR movie, Gandalf said the Company should hold a course west of the MM for 40 days, on the first leg of the ring going south. But yeah, I agree they do pretty well with indicating the passage of times in those three movies, setting aside the time when Elrond traveled to Rohan seemingly overnight just so he could hand Aragorn his sword.

OTOH, Jackson's Hobbit movie seems to be compressing time ridiculously, in that apparently (though we can't be sure until another movie appears) the trilogy is the origin story of the Witch King, who in the books had been hanging around ME for 1600ish years but in the movie he's 1540 years late.

Balance
02-22-2013, 06:46 PM
It's the notion that Elrond sent a message to DENETHOR that I find annoying.
Yes, that's the really over-the-top bit. My point was, at least in part, that it would have been impractical even to send a message to the Old Forest. Sending one to a city nearly three times as far away, with more serious hazards along the way, makes no sense at all in this context. (The barrow-wights should not be a problem for an elf, but Saruman might be another matter.) It took Boromir over three months (110 days, he says) to make the trip, and he arrived on the day of the Council. Even assuming a tireless elf and a horse liquored up on miruvor, the messenger would have had to start out at least 4 to 5 months before the Council. If Elrond planned the meeting that far in advance, why didn't he send anyone to Frodo? Oh, wait--if he had, his summons would have arrived before Gandalf even left Hobbiton.

And yes, that part of the EE stands out partly because Jackson generally did a much better job with timescales. (Of course, I also dislike it because I dislike pretty much every moment of screentime for Denethor.)

Skald the Rhymer
02-22-2013, 06:57 PM
Yes, that's the really over-the-top bit. My point was, at least in part, that it would have been impractical even to send a message to the Old Forest. Sending one to a city nearly three times as far away, with more serious hazards along the way, makes no sense at all in this context. (The barrow-wights should not be a problem for an elf, but Saruman might be another matter.) It took Boromir over three months (110 days, he says) to make the trip, and he arrived on the day of the Council. Even assuming a tireless elf and a horse liquored up on miruvor, the messenger would have had to start out at least 4 to 5 months before the Council. If Elrond planned the meeting that far in advance, why didn't he send anyone to Frodo? Oh, wait--if he had, his summons would have arrived before Gandalf even left Hobbiton.

And yes, that part of the EE stands out partly because Jackson generally did a much better job with timescales. (Of course, I also dislike it because I dislike pretty much every moment of screentime for Denethor.)

As much as I dislike Movie!Denethor, he does give us Peregrin Took singing Bilbo's traveling song, making it beautiful and heartbreaking.

Skald the Rhymer
02-22-2013, 07:14 PM
OTOH, Jackson's Hobbit movie seems to be compressing time ridiculously, in that apparently (though we can't be sure until another movie appears) the trilogy is the origin story of the Witch King, who in the books had been hanging around ME for 1600ish years but in the movie he's 1540 years late.

I have not and will not see THE HOBBIT (absent a date-night DVD choice by my wife, which seems unlikely). I've seen enough of Jackson's work to decide that my affection for FELLOWSHIP and TOWERS was an anomaly; in general I don't like his film-making choices.

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