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View Full Version : Empire Strikes Back, why did everyone assume Obiwan lied?


grude
01-20-2014, 09:43 AM
Watching the movie with someone who knew the reveal, but had not seen ANH or ESB before they had a different take on it. They assumed Anakin and Darth were two different characters, Obiwan told Luke the truth as he knew it, and Lukes unnamed mom cheated with Darth Vader before he was a machine man. And the fight where Vader killed Anakin was likely related to the baby daddy drama, with Obiwan probably in the dark.

This makes a surprising amount of sense, so why did everyone in 1985 instantly assume Darth=Anakin?

amorali
01-20-2014, 09:50 AM
Watching the movie with someone who knew the reveal, but had not seen ANH or ESB before they had a different take on it. They assumed Anakin and Darth were two different characters, Obiwan told Luke the truth as he knew it, and Lukes unnamed mom cheated with Darth Vader before he was a machine man. And the fight where Vader killed Anakin was likely related to the baby daddy drama, with Obiwan probably in the dark.

This makes a surprising amount of sense, so why did everyone in 1985 instantly assume Darth=Anakin?

Well I was in elementary school but I thought they were two different people too.

Great Antibob
01-20-2014, 09:51 AM
1980, by the way. By 1985, we were on Back to the Future and Return of the Jedi was already in the rearview mirror.

There was no reason for Darth Vader to lie about being Luke's father, which would have been a strange thing to lie about after chopping off Luke's hand.

Also, presumably Luke is in tune with the Force and can search his feelings to know it's true.

That, and it just makes more sense to suppose it's true. Having another person be Luke's father but never appear on screen or even shown is kind of bizarre from a movie-making POV.

Lying to a kid that his father wasn't the evil, child-murdering, genocidal henchman of a despicable despot is probably what I'd do, too.

Death of Rats
01-20-2014, 10:00 AM
Becasue everyone else in Luke's life lied thier asses off to him about who his father was, why should Obi Wan be any different?

Remember, in ANH, Luke believes that his father died as a navigator on a spice frieghter because that was the story that Owen and Beru had fed him growing up.

Obi Wan then gives him some half truths about Anikin to manipulate Luke into killing his own father unknowingly. He and Yoda only come clean with Luke after Anikin/Vader spills the beans on Cloud City. Even then they kinda of whitewash their own responisibilies for what happened with Anikin and during the Clone Wars.

grude
01-20-2014, 10:02 AM
1980, by the way. By 1985, we were on Back to the Future and Return of the Jedi was already in the rearview mirror.

There was no reason for Darth Vader to lie about being Luke's father, which would have been a strange thing to lie about after chopping off Luke's hand.

Also, presumably Luke is in tune with the Force and can search his feelings to know it's true.

That, and it just makes more sense to suppose it's true. Having another person be Luke's father but never appear on screen or even shown is kind of bizarre from a movie-making POV.

Lying to a kid that his father wasn't the evil, child-murdering, genocidal henchman of a despicable despot is probably what I'd do, too.

I was hoping someone would notice the typo :P

No Vader isn't lying, but he isn't Anakin either. So Luke is Vader's bio son, but Anakin is another character who Luke thought was his bio dad. Like they are two different guys, and Vader cheated with Anakin's wife?

Great Antibob
01-20-2014, 10:16 AM
No Vader isn't lying, but he isn't Anakin either. So Luke is Vader's bio son, but Anakin is another character who Luke thought was his bio dad. Like they are two different guys, and Vader cheated with Anakin's wife?

Oh, I see. Well, I guess it's technically a possibility.

But the subtext is there that Vader is Anakin Skywalker turned to the dark side. The phrasing "son of Skywalker" the Emperor uses earlier (meaning he actually is a Skywalker), the parallel with Vader turning Luke, the weird scene on Dagobah where Luke faces the Vader apparition that ends up with his own face. Even the way Vader says, "No, I'm your father". He doesn't say "I'm your real father".

It's not explicit (and yes it's sufficiently ambiguous to need resolution in the next movie), but the hints are spaced through the movie.

gracer
01-20-2014, 10:42 AM
Vader in Dutch means father. For Dutch people he is pretty much called Darth Father! :D

(I actually have no idea how this influenced perceptions at the time. I just always thought it seemed obvious somehow and it might be the name?)

Superdude
01-20-2014, 01:38 PM
In RotJ, when Luke asks Ben's spirit about this, Ben remarks that what he told Luke was true "from a certain point of view." Ben's was a lie of omission. He knew that Vader USED to be Anakin, and that Luke's dad is Anakin. So he's picking nits to keep from feeling guilty about it. If Ben had killed Anakin after that duel on the volcano planet, think of how much suffering could have been alleviated. Hell, Alderaan may have still survived.

One thing about Ep 4 that bothered me: Owen says that Ben died around the same time as Luke's father. To which Luke blurts out "he knew my father?"

No, dumbass. Lots of people died every day. They don't all know each other. I know Luke's sheltered and naive, but it bothered me the way he jumped to that conclusion.

levdrakon
01-20-2014, 02:20 PM
I was hoping someone would notice the typo :P

No Vader isn't lying, but he isn't Anakin either. So Luke is Vader's bio son, but Anakin is another character who Luke thought was his bio dad. Like they are two different guys, and Vader cheated with Anakin's wife?That was a possibility right at the moment of the reveal, but by the end of the movie Luke has searched his feelings and knows it's true, so there wasn't much cause for further speculation.

Another possibility is Vader was basically saying: "forget the biological stuff, we're destined to rule the galaxy together as father and son." As father and son could mean taking him as his apprentice/padawan, as it's destined to be. We don't know it at the time, but later it seems obvious to me both the Jedi and Sith are into the father figure/mentor thing, even if they'd deny having close attachments and things.

Johnny Q
01-20-2014, 02:38 PM
Vader was probably disguised as Annie when he did Luke's mom. He'd just Mind Whammy her when she got suspicious. Not much different than Uther Pendragon in the Arthurian legends.

ftg
01-20-2014, 03:09 PM
At the time of ESB, my assumption was that Darth was the clone of Anakin. Obiwan mentioned the clone wars and Darth killing Luke's father.

So I pictured:

The Jedi were dying out.
They used cloning technology to reproduce themselves.
Just like with all twins everywhere, the clones were evil.
A war started between the Jedi and their clones.
Darth survived, Luke's father didn't.

So, technically, Darth was Luke's father in a DNA test sense. Apparently The Force can't be used to do a better refinement.

So no one was lying, but Darth was stretching things quite a bit.

Not following this theme was one of many disappointments with RotJ. The prequels just further added to the mess. (I stopped after the first one. Didn't even bother to watch them on cable.)

(Although I called the deal with Leia right.)

Sherrerd
01-20-2014, 03:10 PM
Vader in Dutch means father. For Dutch people he is pretty much called Darth Father! :D


George Lucas has never been exactly subtle in his creation of names. I mean, "Darth Sidious"....how insidious!

I would guess that when choosing "Vader" he was simply counting on Americans' notorious lack of knowledge of other languages. He didn't expect moviegoers to make the "father" connection.

Miller
01-20-2014, 03:31 PM
George Lucas has never been exactly subtle in his creation of names. I mean, "Darth Sidious"....how insidious!

I would guess that when choosing "Vader" he was simply counting on Americans' notorious lack of knowledge of other languages. He didn't expect moviegoers to make the "father" connection.

Is there any evidence that Lucas himself knew what the word meant in Dutch? I always assumed he chose the name because it sounded like "invader." Pretty much the same way he did with Darth Sidious, really.

amorali
01-20-2014, 03:32 PM
And he has Leia saying she remembers her mother being beautiful and sad. For the one second her mom was alive after she was born?
Wth....
Unless it's because Leia is a Jedi and sees her using the force.

BigT
01-20-2014, 03:39 PM
Is there any evidence that Lucas himself knew what the word meant in Dutch? I always assumed he chose the name because it sounded like "invader." Pretty much the same way he did with Darth Sidious, really.

Seeing as Lucas came up with the name well before he decided Darth was Luke's father, you are probably correct.

Darth Vader was Luke's father only from the second rewrite of ESB on. If Lucas had known what he was going to do back in the first movie, he wouldn't have needed to make Obi Wan a liar.

Aquadementia
01-20-2014, 03:41 PM
At the time of ESB, my assumption was that Darth was the clone of Anakin. Obiwan mentioned the clone wars and Darth killing Luke's father.

I never heard of that before.

Besides, if cloning technology existed in the Star Wars universe Vader wouldn't need all the mechanical parts because they could have cloned him new limbs and organs.
Oh, wait a minute...

JohnT
01-20-2014, 03:48 PM
Remember, in ANH, Luke believes that his father died as a navigator on a spice frieghter because that was the story that Owen and Beru had fed him growing up.


(rhetorical question)

You know... spice isn't that heavy. Or bulky. Why would you need an entire freighter dedicated to shipping the stuff?

Baker
01-20-2014, 03:57 PM
And he has Leia saying she remembers her mother being beautiful and sad. For the one second her mom was alive after she was born?
Wth....
Unless it's because Leia is a Jedi and sees her using the force.

I assumed Leia was speaking of her step-mother. I don't know what Leia called her, but I bet it was "Mom" or the equivalent. Leia never mentioned any other Organa siblings, and if "mom" was sad maybe it was because she couldn't bear children from her own body. Or maybe Senator Organa was dead by then and she remembers her mother as a greiving widow.

kenobi 65
01-20-2014, 04:03 PM
And he has Leia saying she remembers her mother being beautiful and sad. For the one second her mom was alive after she was born?
Wth....
Unless it's because Leia is a Jedi and sees her using the force.

Or, that it's a line which was written two decades before Lucas decided that Leia's mother would die in childbirth, and Lucas didn't care that it contradicted Leia's line in RotJ. :)

levdrakon
01-20-2014, 04:15 PM
(rhetorical question)

You know... spice isn't that heavy. Or bulky. Why would you need an entire freighter dedicated to shipping the stuff?Read Dune. :) A galaxy can go through a lot of spice, if it's the right kind.

JohnT
01-20-2014, 04:19 PM
Well, yeah. But in Dune there weren't entire ships dedicated to transporting the stuff across interstellar distances*.

*Your ship might be completely crammed with Spice, true, but it gets into a much vaster Guild ship which does the actual interstellar travel with your ship in it.

Johnny Q
01-20-2014, 04:36 PM
Don't they basically move space around the ship? Not much need for a pilot if the ship isn't going anywhere.

levdrakon
01-20-2014, 04:37 PM
Is there any evidence that Lucas himself knew what the word meant in Dutch? I always assumed he chose the name because it sounded like "invader." Pretty much the same way he did with Darth Sidious, really.Vader kinda feels like "Vlad the Impaler," too.

Mister Rik
01-20-2014, 04:43 PM
I assumed Leia was speaking of her step-mother.

Nitpick: Adoptive mother. Though I can't recall whether she knew she was adopted before Vader's reveal.

Miller
01-20-2014, 04:50 PM
I assumed Leia was speaking of her step-mother. I don't know what Leia called her, but I bet it was "Mom" or the equivalent. Leia never mentioned any other Organa siblings, and if "mom" was sad maybe it was because she couldn't bear children from her own body. Or maybe Senator Organa was dead by then and she remembers her mother as a greiving widow.

Remember in the first movie, when Padme is disguised as one of her handmaids, while the handmaid pretends to be her? They should have kept the maid as a minor character in the next two movies, and had her be the one who takes Leia to Alderaan to raise as her own.

Alternatively, they could have named her Beru, and had a subplot about how she's always bickering in the background with Padme's chief of security, Captain Lars...

zbuzz
01-20-2014, 04:50 PM
(rhetorical question)

You know... spice isn't that heavy. Or bulky. Why would you need an entire freighter dedicated to shipping the stuff?

Don't you remember the scene in The Empire Strikes Back where Mr. Spock says, "The spice must flow."

msmith537
01-20-2014, 04:51 PM
Search your feelings.

Miller
01-20-2014, 04:54 PM
Don't you remember the scene in The Empire Strikes Back where Mr. Spock says, "The spice must flow."

You're confused. "The Spice must flow," is what people said in 1984 before they went to Carousel.

Mr. Spock's famous line was, of course, "Hasta la vista, baby."

Chimera
01-20-2014, 04:54 PM
Search your feelings.

Make a Perception check.

Chimera
01-20-2014, 04:56 PM
Rule One: The Doctor Jedi Lies.

Ranger Jeff
01-20-2014, 05:16 PM
When ANH came out, Lucas didn't know 1) there'd be a sequel, B) Vader would become a major character in sequels, III) Luke and Leia were siblings, and 4th) Vader was the bio dad for Luke and Leia. So, Lucas didn't have Obiwan lie to Luke in ANH.

Chronos
01-20-2014, 05:27 PM
Ranger Jeff, your numbering is off. It should be 4), F), VII), and 8th).

The Other Waldo Pepper
01-20-2014, 05:34 PM
Padme is disguised as one of her handmaids, while the handmaid pretends to be her? They should have kept the maid as a minor character in the next two movies, and had her be the one who takes Leia to Alderaan to raise as her own.

"Many Bothans died to bring us this information."

amorali
01-20-2014, 05:55 PM
When ANH came out, Lucas didn't know 1) there'd be a sequel, B) Vader would become a major character in sequels, III) Luke and Leia were siblings, and 4th) Vader was the bio dad for Luke and Leia. So, Lucas didn't have Obiwan lie to Luke in ANH.

Do you think they ever remembered kissing and got nauseous?

Chimera
01-20-2014, 06:04 PM
Do you think they ever remembered kissing and got nauseous?

Leia: Luke, now I feel very uncomfortable about that kiss we shared.
Luke: (waves hand) We never kissed. You don't remember a thing.
Leia: What was I talking about?

dasmoocher
01-20-2014, 06:05 PM
Remember in the first movie, when Padme is disguised as one of her handmaids, while the handmaid pretends to be her? They should have kept the maid as a minor character in the next two movies, and had her be the one who takes Leia to Alderaan to raise as her own.

Alternatively, they could have named her Beru, and had a subplot about how she's always bickering in the background with Padme's chief of security, Captain Lars...

Wasn't that Keira Knightley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_characters#S)? I think her pay scale increased soon afterwards.

Andy L
01-20-2014, 06:10 PM
Watching the movie with someone who knew the reveal, but had not seen ANH or ESB before they had a different take on it. They assumed Anakin and Darth were two different characters, Obiwan told Luke the truth as he knew it, and Lukes unnamed mom cheated with Darth Vader before he was a machine man. And the fight where Vader killed Anakin was likely related to the baby daddy drama, with Obiwan probably in the dark.

This makes a surprising amount of sense, so why did everyone in 1985 instantly assume Darth=Anakin?

The meta reason is that it was at the end of the movie. A surpring revelation at the beginning of a movie or in the middle might turn out to be false (and thus drive the story in interesting ways), but a revelation at the end of a movie will be expected to be true by the audience.

Miller
01-20-2014, 06:44 PM
The meta reason is that it was at the end of the movie. A surpring revelation at the beginning of a movie or in the middle might turn out to be false (and thus drive the story in interesting ways), but a revelation at the end of a movie will be expected to be true by the audience.

Also, Luke's mom doesn't really exist in the narrative of the first three movies. The only time she's mentioned is when Luke as Leia about her mom in Jedi - before that, there's not a single reference to Luke's other parent, not even obliquely, in the entire trilogy. In most stories, if there's a question about someone lying about a major plot point, the audience is going to assume that it's one of the characters already on stage, and not some third party they've never heard of.

grude
01-20-2014, 07:18 PM
The meta reason is that it was at the end of the movie. A surpring revelation at the beginning of a movie or in the middle might turn out to be false (and thus drive the story in interesting ways), but a revelation at the end of a movie will be expected to be true by the audience.

Again the person assumed Vader was truthful, but he was NOT Anakin Skywalker, Vader claims to be Luke's father but never claims to be Anakin.

There idea was that Anakin and Vader were two different characters, and Vader killed Anakin.

What I was wondering was why people in 1980 didn't think:

"Wow Vader not only killed Anakin, he also secretly fathered Luke with Anakin's wife!"

Andy L
01-20-2014, 08:14 PM
Again the person assumed Vader was truthful, but he was NOT Anakin Skywalker, Vader claims to be Luke's father but never claims to be Anakin.

There idea was that Anakin and Vader were two different characters, and Vader killed Anakin.

What I was wondering was why people in 1980 didn't think:

"Wow Vader not only killed Anakin, he also secretly fathered Luke with Anakin's wife!"

Sorry about that. I misunderstood the question. Miller has a good point though - if Luke's mother was a character in the movie (or even a character that Luke mentioned from time to time) then the idea that she had cheated on Anakin with Darth would be a dramatic surprise, but without that, there's not much point to it (IMHO).

kenobi 65
01-21-2014, 10:00 AM
Wasn't that Keira Knightley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_characters#S)? I think her pay scale increased soon afterwards.

It was, and yes, it did, esp. after "Pirates of the Caribbean".

grude
01-21-2014, 11:12 AM
The funny thing is that it almost makes more sense than the canon.

1.Obiwan is baffled and feels like he made a tragic mistake after his student kills his best friend for a reason he doesn't understand.

2.It explains the Emperor saying "son of Skywalker" and Vader's all consuming obsession with finding Luke first, the Emperor doesn't know Luke is Vader's son, and Vader wants to make sure to find his son first before he gets killed.

I wasn't even born yet in 80, so I was kind of going yea your interpretation makes a lot of sense, wonder why no one else thought of it(well not many elses heh).

BrianJ
01-21-2014, 11:28 AM
Again the person assumed Vader was truthful, but he was NOT Anakin Skywalker, Vader claims to be Luke's father but never claims to be Anakin.

There idea was that Anakin and Vader were two different characters, and Vader killed Anakin.

What I was wondering was why people in 1980 didn't think:

"Wow Vader not only killed Anakin, he also secretly fathered Luke with Anakin's wife!"

Just curious, was Anakin's name even mentioned in the first three movies?

Anyway, I assumed at the time that Obiwan did lie, and Vader was the father.

edwards_beard
01-21-2014, 11:34 AM
Just curious, was Anakin's name even mentioned in the first three movies?

Anyway, I assumed at the time that Obiwan did lie, and Vader was the father.

Ben revealed the name on Dagobah in ROTJ and then Luke referred to the name to Vader when trying to turn him back.

Great Antibob
01-21-2014, 11:42 AM
Just curious, was Anakin's name even mentioned in the first three movies?

A lot in RotJ, actually, and even to Vader's face.

grude
01-21-2014, 11:52 AM
Just curious, was Anakin's name even mentioned in the first three movies?

Anyway, I assumed at the time that Obiwan did lie, and Vader was the father.

Anakin's name is mentioned by Luke and Obiwan in the first movie when they talk about him in Obiwan's house, Beru and Owen also talk about Luke's father but not by name.

Blaster Master
01-21-2014, 12:23 PM
Seeing as Lucas came up with the name well before he decided Darth was Luke's father, you are probably correct.

From what I've read, he did deliberately choose the name Darth Vader because Vader meant father, but not with the original intention that he would actually be his biological father. I think it's pretty clear in ANH that he didn't have the whole Sith "Darth" title worked out, because of how Obiwan refers to him as Darth, rather than Vader. Though I guess that can be fan wanked as him perhaps only being willing to see him as the Sith he's become.

Anyway, I've read a few articles about it, I think one was a Cracked one, something about changes or reveals that could have been way better. I can't access Cracked at work, so maybe someone else can find it.

As I understand, his original story plan had a completely different conflict where Darth Vader wasn't his biological dad but instead his aim was to become his mentor in the Dark Side, to figuratively become his "Dark Father" and then attempt to overthrow the Emperor. The whole biological father thing really is unnecessary, and it seems it was done largely because of the impact it would have. It worked well, but I think it ultimately hamstrung the narrative, which is why I think Jedi wasn't as good, and why it quickly went downhill from there.

dasmoocher
01-21-2014, 01:39 PM
Anakin's name is mentioned by Luke and Obiwan in the first movie when they talk about him in Obiwan's house, Beru and Owen also talk about Luke's father but not by name.

When is Anakin's name mentioned? Here's the scene on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_mjtTCdcg).

Is this something Lucas added in later, like Greedo shooting first?

What's the fanwank on why Obi-Wan doesn't remember R2? R2 seems to give a droid expression of surprise when "Ben" Kenobi reveals he's Obi-Wan.

Kenobi also says he hasn't gone by the name Obi-Wan since before Luke was born, but I would think he didn't start going by Ben until after taking Luke to Tatooine.

Then again, I guess I shouldn't expect coherence from Lucas.

The Other Waldo Pepper
01-21-2014, 01:57 PM
What's the fanwank on why Obi-Wan doesn't remember R2?

IIRC, he says he doesn't recall ever owning a droid, which is technically true, which is the best kind of true.

dasmoocher
01-21-2014, 02:27 PM
IIRC, he says he doesn't recall ever owning a droid, which is technically true, which is the best kind of true.

Well, I guess that's true--from a certain point of view.

Sherrerd
01-21-2014, 02:29 PM
Is there any evidence that Lucas himself knew what the word meant in Dutch? I always assumed he chose the name because it sounded like "invader." Pretty much the same way he did with Darth Sidious, really.

Seeing as Lucas came up with the name well before he decided Darth was Luke's father, you are probably correct.
Darth Vader was Luke's father only from the second rewrite of ESB on. If Lucas had known what he was going to do back in the first movie, he wouldn't have needed to make Obi Wan a liar.

Good points.

Possibly someone told him (prior to that second rewrite) about the fact that "vader" means father in Dutch...and it got him thinking...

Though Blaster Master's remarks make sense, too:

From what I've read, he did deliberately choose the name Darth Vader because Vader meant father, but not with the original intention that he would actually be his biological father. ...As I understand, his original story plan had a completely different conflict where Darth Vader wasn't his biological dad but instead his aim was to become his mentor in the Dark Side, to figuratively become his "Dark Father" and then attempt to overthrow the Emperor.

Death of Rats
01-21-2014, 03:44 PM
What's the fanwank on why Obi-Wan doesn't remember R2? R2 seems to give a droid expression of surprise when "Ben" Kenobi reveals he's Obi-Wan.



I think the expresion on Obi Wan's face suggests that he does recognize R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet.

xizor
01-21-2014, 05:27 PM
I think the expresion on Obi Wan's face suggests that he does recognize R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet.

Which is why all he said was that he didn't remember ever OWNING a droid.

Mister Rik
01-21-2014, 09:32 PM
When is Anakin's name mentioned? Here's the scene on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_mjtTCdcg).

Is this something Lucas added in later, like Greedo shooting first?.

I was kind of wondering the same thing. The first I can recall encountering the name "Anakin" was in an EU novel, when Han and Leia gave the name to their son. I'm unable to check now; I had the original, un-"improved" versions of the original trilogy on VHS, but those were stolen and I don't have a VCR anyway.

But yeah, I don't recall every hearing him referred to as anything other than "your father" or "my father" or "his father".

weemart
01-21-2014, 09:59 PM
When is Anakin's name mentioned? Here's the scene on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_mjtTCdcg).

Kenobi also says he hasn't gone by the name Obi-Wan since before Luke was born, but I would think he didn't start going by Ben until after taking Luke to Tatooine.

Then again, I guess I shouldn't expect coherence from Lucas.

When SW:ANH was set Luke was a late teenager/early 20s. At the time of Luke;s birth Obi-Wan had gone through a very traumatic time. His best friend had turned to the darkside and all his other Jedi friends had been slain. Perhaps the trauma and time made him forget when exactly he was last called Obi-Wan. It seems certain it's not long after the birth of Luke that he was last called by this name.

AK84
01-21-2014, 10:41 PM
I think the expresion on Obi Wan's face suggests that he does recognise R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet.

I think even within the stand alone EPIV, that is the message that is supposed to be conveyed to the audience.

As for the OP. Throughout the movie, it has been made clear that Luke is Anakin's son,by the Emperor and Vader too. Its quite clear from subtext.


As it is, the real question should be, when/how did Vader find out that he was Darth Daddy/Deadbeat. He clearly knew sometime before the events of ESB.

Mister Rik
01-21-2014, 10:49 PM
I think the expresion on Obi Wan's face suggests that he does recognize R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet.

Rewatching that scene, I really liked the cinematography of the way Alec Guiness pulls back his hood, looks directly at the camera, and says, "Well hello there!"

It was like Lucas/the movie was saying, "Hey! Take this movie seriously!" He wasn't speaking just to R2-D2, he was speaking to the audience (or at least the parents of the kids in the theater). It was a movie that was not only unlike anything anybody had ever seen, but that featured a cast of unknowns. The parents of all those kids were probably wondering what they were watching, and then the old, familiar Alec Guinness appeared and all was well.

levdrakon
01-21-2014, 10:59 PM
Oh, droids are a minority and all the bad people buy and sell and kick them. The good guys are nice to them and treat them like real people.

weemart
01-21-2014, 11:13 PM
As it is, the real question should be, when/how did Vader find out that he was Darth Daddy/Deadbeat. He clearly knew sometime before the events of ESB.

I think his moment of clarity came when he's about to shoot Luke in ANH and says "The force is strong in this one".

Since to his knowledge all Jedi were dead he probably quickly came to the conclusion that Luke must be his son since the evidence of the first 3 films is that Jedi didn't pro-create, at least not without permission.

The first 3 films throw up a feeling that Jedi abstained from sexual relations, but when Anakin is 1st discovered Qui-Gon asked his mum who his father was which suggests that they did pro-create. So I'm guessing they'd need permission b4 doing so and Anakin hadn't sought that permission b4 marrying and pro-creating with his wife (I forget her name lol).

Chronos
01-22-2014, 09:57 AM
People strong in the Force procreate all the time. Most of them don't become Jedis, though.
Quoth Death of Rats:

I think the expresion on Obi Wan's face suggests that he does recognise R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet.
Similarly, he rolls his eyes when he hears Han talking about how many parsecs he made the Kessel run in.

Great Antibob
01-22-2014, 10:09 AM
Look, there's no way Kenobi recognizes R2-D2. It's confirmation bias based on watching the prequels.

Lucas did this with a lot of his characters. Vader was the most popular character in the first movie. So, his role got expanded, even to the point of becoming Luke's father. Boba Fett's toy was ridiculously popular, so Fett got tons of love, especially in the prequels. Jar Jar is unpopular? Drastically reduce his screen time in the other movies.

There is no "moment of clarity", except as a fanwank. It is Russian revisionism. Lucas needed to take advantage of Vader's popularity, so he re-wrote the character's backstory accordingly for ESB.

Lucas knew the droids (especially R2) were popular with the kids and hardcore fans, so he wrote them into the prequels, despite the fact it made almost no sense.

Not that he's around anymore to answer the question (nor would he have wanted to), but I'd wager any amount of money at any odds that Alec Guinness had no idea, at the time of filming, that his character recognized R2 at all.

People strong in the Force procreate all the time.

And fans wank a lot, too.

AK84
01-22-2014, 10:37 AM
No one is stating that in the 1977 movie Alec Guinness was told "you know he is R2D2 because you spent 3 years fighting a galactic civil war alongside him". It was more like " this is not the first time this droid has been used to send a message to you''. Especially since said droid knew where to find him. I think it's quite clear that the audience is supposed to think that Obi Wan knows more than he lets on.


BTW. The eye role seem to have been Sir Alec being annoyed at being in such a stupid movie.

Bozuit
01-22-2014, 01:06 PM
George Lucas has never been exactly subtle in his creation of names. I mean, "Darth Sidious"....how insidious!

I like Darth Stroyer.

Sherrerd
01-22-2014, 03:16 PM
I like Darth Stroyer.

The possibilities are annoying:

Darth Ness: the Sith who works by night.

Darth Ipher: the codebreaker Sith.

Darth Isive: the Sith who never hesitates.

Darth Fiance: the rebellious Sith.

Darth Picable: the contemptible Sith.

Darth Pondent: the sad Sith.

Darth Pot: the anti-democracy Sith.

Darth Rigible: the plus-size Sith.

Darth Crepancy: the Sith who can't balance his checkbook.

Darth Tic: the Sith given to extreme measures.

Great Antibob
01-22-2014, 03:39 PM
It was more like " this is not the first time this droid has been used to send a message to you''. Especially since said droid knew where to find him.

I'd debate that, actually.

He's been hiding on a remote, desert planet for nearly 20 years to the point neither the princess nor the droid know his local alias (Ben vs Obi-Wan - a name he hasn't used "oh since before you were born"). Sure, maybe he left a forwarding address when he went into hiding, but it doesn't look like he's been in contact with anybody important for a while.

Still seems like confirmation bias based on what fans saw in the prequels. Actually, it gives George Lucas too much credit for having planned all of it out. That's almost certainly not the case.

I think it's quite clear that the audience is supposed to think that Obi Wan knows more than he lets on.

Sure. But about galactic events and about Luke's heritage and destiny. Not about some random droid he's never seen before.

BTW. The eye role seem to have been Sir Alec being annoyed at being in such a stupid movie.

Maybe. He seemed to be ok with the movie until it came out and became ridiculously popular. He actually wanted to do a wise old wizard role and was generally favorable towards the production until screaming fans made it unpleasant for him. He just didn't want his career to be defined by this one.

levdrakon
01-22-2014, 03:53 PM
I read Alec Guinness himself campaigned Lucas to kill his character because he couldn't stand the cheesy dialogue he was forced to recite.

Great Antibob
01-22-2014, 04:11 PM
I read Alec Guinness himself campaigned Lucas to kill his character because he couldn't stand the cheesy dialogue he was forced to recite.

Can you kill a force ghost?

Unless you mean in the first movie, but that was always deliberate. The hero's mentor needs to disappear or die for the hero to advance.

sciurophobic
01-22-2014, 04:37 PM
Lucas knew the droids (especially R2) were popular with the kids and hardcore fans, so he wrote them into the prequels, despite the fact it made almost no sense.



As far back as 1980 Lucas was saying that the Artoo and Threepio would be in all the movies (which back then, as now, was 9).

terentii
01-22-2014, 07:16 PM
Especially since said droid knew where to find him.

The only reason R2-D2 knew where to look for Ben was because he overheard Luke tell Threepio about the crazy old hermit who lives out in the sticks. There's even a definite "Oh, yeah?" reaction on R2's part when he hears this.

He strikes out to look for Ben in the middle of the night because he's been programmed to, and he's not going to stop until he finds him.

levdrakon
01-22-2014, 07:20 PM
Come to think of it, how was R2 supposed to find Obi Wan? "Somewhere on Tatooine" seems like it could take awhile.

terentii
01-22-2014, 07:22 PM
As it is, the real question should be, when/how did Vader find out that he was Darth Daddy/Deadbeat. He clearly knew sometime before the events of ESB.

The Force? Subspace chatter following the debacle off Yavin? His delayed recognition that "The Force is strong with this one"? :dubious:

However great The Force may be, it really wasn't worth much in helping him recognize his own offspring. :rolleyes:

Miller
01-22-2014, 07:26 PM
The possibilities are annoying:

Darth Ness: the Sith who works by night.

Darth Ipher: the codebreaker Sith.

Darth Isive: the Sith who never hesitates.

Darth Fiance: the rebellious Sith.

Darth Picable: the contemptible Sith.

Darth Pondent: the sad Sith.

Darth Pot: the anti-democracy Sith.

Darth Rigible: the plus-size Sith.

Darth Crepancy: the Sith who can't balance his checkbook.

Darth Tic: the Sith given to extreme measures.

Darth Nefarious (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/01/25).

terentii
01-22-2014, 07:26 PM
Come to think of it, how was R2 supposed to find Obi Wan? "Somewhere on Tatooine" seems like it could take awhile.

Land on the planet (Leia must have known he was hiding there, since that's where her ship was heading when it was attacked) and hope for the proverbial "lucky break." :rolleyes:

terentii
01-22-2014, 07:31 PM
Rewatching that scene, I really liked the cinematography of the way Alec Guiness pulls back his hood, looks directly at the camera, and says, "Well hello there!"

Well, of course; he's just spied a cute, friendly little droid. I'd have the same reaction if I found a stray puppy or kitten. :rolleyes:

Bozuit
01-23-2014, 01:13 PM
The possibilities are annoying:

Futurama has, along with Darth Stroyer: Darth Urderer, Darth Sploder, Darth Trocious and Dath Ithead.

Darth Nefarious (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/01/25).

Surely it should be "Darth Farious"? I can almost imagine that as a real character name.

Miller
01-23-2014, 01:42 PM
Surely it should be "Darth Farious"? I can almost imagine that as a real character name.

If you check out the newspost for that comic to see the names that inspired it, you'll find that "Darth Farious" would have been way too subtle.

(Seriously: a Sith necromancer named Darth Andeddu. That was a thing that somebody actually put in a Star Wars book.)

dasmoocher
01-23-2014, 02:16 PM
If you check out the newspost for that comic to see the names that inspired it, you'll find that "Darth Farious" would have been way too subtle.

(Seriously: a Sith necromancer named Darth Andeddu. That was a thing that somebody actually put in a Star Wars book.)

It is supposed to be Darth Undead Du(de)?

When I read the comic in the link, I thought of Darth Couscous as name. He could use the Force to squeeze the water out of the semolina to dry it.

Chronos
01-23-2014, 03:13 PM
Am I the only one who reads Sherrerd's list and thinks those guys all belong in the twenty-fourth-and-a-half century?

mlees
01-23-2014, 04:47 PM
Near the beginning of "The Empire Strikes back", Vader takes a video call from the Emperor:

Darth Vader: What is thy bidding, my master?

Emperor: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

Darth Vader: I have felt it.

Emperor: We have a new enemy, the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.

Darth Vader: How is that possible?

Emperor: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.

Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

Emperor: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

Darth Vader: If he could be turned, he will become a powerful ally.

Emperor: Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?

Darth Vader: He will join us or die, my master.

Notice that the Emperor doesn't even call Anakin "Anakin" to his face anymore. :) (I realise this was a story telling trick in order to facilitate springing the surprise later on.)

So, once you go Darth, you abandon your past... by prentending that pre-Darth "you" was a whole 'nother person?

TBG
01-23-2014, 06:25 PM
Near the beginning of "The Empire Strikes back", Vader takes a video call from the Emperor:



Notice that the Emperor doesn't even call Anakin "Anakin" to his face anymore. :) (I realise this was a story telling trick in order to facilitate springing the surprise later on.)

So, once you go Darth, you abandon your past... by prentending that pre-Darth "you" was a whole 'nother person?

That's from one of the molested versions, not sure if it's the older theatrical SE or the DVD SE or even the BR SE, but in the original versions, the name Anakin is never used until Jedi.

It's possible it may have been used in scripts, novelizations, adaptations, spinoffs, whatnot, but it didn't get used on screen at all in Star Wars or Empire.

simster
01-23-2014, 08:35 PM
Near the beginning of "The Empire Strikes back", Vader takes a video call from the Emperor:




The call right after ANH went more like this - (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F1d3QWsyk0)

amorali
01-23-2014, 09:22 PM
But there must have been a canteen in the Death Star....
http://youtu.be/Sv5iEK-IEzw

Mister Rik
01-23-2014, 10:25 PM
Land on the planet (Leia must have known he was hiding there, since that's where her ship was heading when it was attacked) and hope for the proverbial "lucky break." :rolleyes:

I had the impression (perhaps from the dialogue between Leia and Vader - I'd need to go back and watch) that the ship was on its way to Alderaan. Leia meant to personally deliver the Death Star plans (nothing suspicious about a senator returning to her home planet, after all), but Vader's Star Destroyer put an end to that idea. Loading the plans into R2-D2 and recording her message was the spur-of-the-moment, emergency "Plan B".

I've always thought it was a strong probability that the Force influenced the exact location in space where Leia's ship would be disabled. Because the Force "knew" that it was time to "awaken" Luke.

Well, of course; he's just spied a cute, friendly little droid. I'd have the same reaction if I found a stray puppy or kitten. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: yourself. I was speaking in the "meta", cinematic sense. Of course he was looking at R2-D2, "in character". But how many other characters in the movie were introduced via closeup face-shot, looking directly into the camera? Of course, this didn't occur to me when I saw the movie in the theater in 1977, but I was 11 years old and had never heard of Alex Guinness. But my parents damn sure had. And given that my parents honestly had no interest in seeing this movie (it took weeks of me begging before they finally caved and took me), I'm pretty sure that Sir Alec's introduction onscreen may have been enough to make them at least think, "Well, this might not be so bad".

terentii
01-24-2014, 02:37 AM
I had the impression (perhaps from the dialogue between Leia and Vader - I'd need to go back and watch) that the ship was on its way to Alderaan. Leia meant to personally deliver the Death Star plans (nothing suspicious about a senator returning to her home planet, after all), but Vader's Star Destroyer put an end to that idea. Loading the plans into R2-D2 and recording her message was the spur-of-the-moment, emergency "Plan B".

I've always thought it was a strong probability that the Force influenced the exact location in space where Leia's ship would be disabled. Because the Force "knew" that it was time to "awaken" Luke.

She was indeed headed to Alderaan until Vader attacked her ship. Then, I would assume, she knew the only way to get the message to her "father" on Alderaan was to get it to Obi-Wan---who, amazingly, just happened to be close enough on Tatooine for her to make it there before she was boarded.

A remarkable lucky coincidence, or The Force at work? Interesting question. I'm surprised Lucas (so far as I know) never addressed it.

terentii
01-24-2014, 02:40 AM
:rolleyes: , BTW, is my look of innocence in the above context.

Irishman
01-24-2014, 10:35 AM
I assumed Leia was speaking of her step-mother. I don't know what Leia called her, but I bet it was "Mom" or the equivalent. Leia never mentioned any other Organa siblings, and if "mom" was sad maybe it was because she couldn't bear children from her own body. Or maybe Senator Organa was dead by then and she remembers her mother as a greiving widow.

Except when Luke asks her the question, he asks about her real mom. Specifically. Then she says something about "just images, really".

The meta reason is that it was at the end of the movie. A surpring revelation at the beginning of a movie or in the middle might turn out to be false (and thus drive the story in interesting ways), but a revelation at the end of a movie will be expected to be true by the audience.

But that revelation was not "I am Annakin Skywalker", it was "I am your father." Technically, he never said his name was Skywalker.

I think the previous lines by the Emperor about Luke being the son of Skywalker helped create the idea that when Vader says he's Luke's father, he's also saying he was Skywalker.


As it is, the real question should be, when/how did Vader find out that he was Darth Daddy/Deadbeat. He clearly knew sometime before the events of ESB.

He first encounters Luke in Star Wars in the trench, sensing the force. He has how ever many years between then and Hoth to have learned the name of the Hero of the Rebellion.

:rolleyes: , BTW, is my look of innocence in the above context.

Sorry, that icon is a sign if dismissal. You can't redefine the meaning of an emoticon to your own personal definition and expect people to understand.

terentii
01-24-2014, 08:48 PM
Sorry, that icon is a sign if dismissal. You can't redefine the meaning of an emoticon to your own personal definition and expect people to understand.

:rolleyes:

Miller
01-24-2014, 09:19 PM
:rolleyes: , BTW, is my look of innocence in the above context.

Jesus, is THAT what you think that smiley means? No wonder I can't figure out what you're trying to say in half your posts.

Sherrerd
01-26-2014, 02:50 PM
Darth Nefarious (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/01/25).

Heh. There's a fine line, in popular culture, between "accessible" and "skull-thumpingly obvious."



Am I the only one who reads Sherrerd's list and thinks those guys all belong in the twenty-fourth-and-a-half century?

Or perhaps in a Warner Bros. cartoon:

"You're Darth Picable!!!" :cool:

eta: Yikes! That was what you meant! (I must have seen Duck Dodgers at some point, but didn't make the connection. :()

Andy L
01-26-2014, 03:06 PM
One thing about Ep 4 that bothered me: Owen says that Ben died around the same time as Luke's father. To which Luke blurts out "he knew my father?"

No, dumbass. Lots of people died every day. They don't all know each other. I know Luke's sheltered and naive, but it bothered me the way he jumped to that conclusion.

I figured that since Owen doesn't talk about Luke's father much at all, and Luke is desperate to learn more about him, Luke is rather desperately taking Owen's offhand reference as an opportunity to worm some more information out of him.

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