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View Full Version : Point out logic/plausibility flaws in classic movies and TV shows


Zeldar
01-27-2014, 10:44 AM
In the recent thread The Luca Brasi Gambit (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=714138), started by Dale Sams, some of us thought the idea needed to be expanded to other beloved, esteemed, and critically acclaimed masterpieces that have withstood the test of time -- except that they might not have been examined closely enough for logic errors.

Here's a chance to point to such things and let the world know that even Caesar may have had stinky feet.

Son of a Rich
01-27-2014, 11:51 AM
In Titanic, the characters don't really seem to show much discomfiture as they're splashing around in the cabins, even though the water would have been near freezing. Adrenalin would only go so far.

Speaking of the Godfather: why the hell would the guys watching Frankie allow him to have a visit from Tom, the consigliere of the very guy who wants to kill him?

In King Kong, wouldn't taking a genuine dinosaur back to New York be more impressive than an ape, no matter how big he is?

Zeldar
01-27-2014, 12:13 PM
This is more of a recurring convention, applying to the good, bad and ugly productions with equal sincerity, and no example I can think of at the moment is any more egregious than the others.

It has to do with treating wounds and boo-boos. Wipe it off, put on a bandage and you're good to go. If there's no flowing blood, there's no damage that can keep you from crossing the desert, climbing a mountain, carrying a wounded comrade or anything else strenuous.

Four or five gunshot wounds, as long as they aren't visibly bleeding, and aren't to the head or directly to the heart? Wipe 'em off and carry on.

Diceman
01-27-2014, 12:23 PM
In King Kong, wouldn't taking a genuine dinosaur back to New York be more impressive than an ape, no matter how big he is?
For that matter, how did they get Kong back to New York? He's probably as big as the boat itself, and even with every surviving crew member helping, I don't see how they could have moved Kong. And once they did get him onto the ship, how did they keep him docile on the weeks-long voyage back to New York? They had used up all their ether subduing Kong in the first place.

I noticed that the recent Peter Jackson movie conveniently glossed over all of these glaring logistical problems.

Son of a Rich
01-27-2014, 12:43 PM
For that matter, how did they get Kong back to New York? He's probably as big as the boat itself, and even with every surviving crew member helping, I don't see how they could have moved Kong. And once they did get him onto the ship, how did they keep him docile on the weeks-long voyage back to New York? They had used up all their ether subduing Kong in the first place.

I noticed that the recent Peter Jackson movie conveniently glossed over all of these glaring logistical problems.

Yeah, once they built a raft and floated him out to the ship, where would they get a crane big enough to haul him aboard? And once aboard, how big are the holds in old tramp steamers? Did they just lash him to the deck and make him sit outside immobilized for the whole journey? No wonder he was pissed!

running coach
01-27-2014, 12:45 PM
For that matter, how did they get Kong back to New York? He's probably as big as the boat itself, and even with every surviving crew member helping, I don't see how they could have moved Kong. And once they did get him onto the ship, how did they keep him docile on the weeks-long voyage back to New York? They had used up all their ether subduing Kong in the first place.

I noticed that the recent Peter Jackson movie conveniently glossed over all of these glaring logistical problems.

I want to know why the natives built the giant walls to keep Kong out and then built a Kong-sized gate.

Skald the Rhymer
01-27-2014, 01:03 PM
In King Kong, wouldn't taking a genuine dinosaur back to New York be more impressive than an ape, no matter how big he is?

Depends on the dinosaur. I wouldn't take either. But they'd captured Kong in the (ostensible) process of rescuing Ann Darrow, and given the loss of life involved in doing so, I doubt the captain could have persuaded his men to attempt the capture of a second giant monster.

CalMeacham
01-27-2014, 01:49 PM
Yeah, once they built a raft and floated him out to the ship, where would they get a crane big enough to haul him aboard? And once aboard, how big are the holds in old tramp steamers? Did they just lash him to the deck and make him sit outside immobilized for the whole journey? No wonder he was pissed!

we've addressed this on the Board before. Some people seem to think that they towed Kong back all the way to NY on the raft they built to get him to the boat (Hah!). The Gold Key comic book adaptation shows them simply towing an unconscious Kong behind the boat, without an apparent raft (or else he's submerging it). A recent audiobook version of Delos W. Lovelace's novelization shows Kong tied up in a very uncomfortable-looking bundle on the deck of the [I]Venture[I]. The 1976 version is the only movie version to address the problem, saying that Kong was brought back in one of the tanker's empty holds. I expressed the opinion that this would more likely result in a giant dead ape, since not only are petroleum gases heavy and toxic, but many tankers apparently piped their exhaust through the holds in order to keep down the possibility of explosion in the petroleum vapors. In any event, the 1976 version had by far the largest ship. The [I]Venture[I] in the 1933 version would be hard-pressed to keep Kong on deck. the 2005 [I]Venture[I] would have no room at all.

So now you know why the 1933 and 2005 versions go from Denham shouting "Kong! The Eighth Wonder of the World!" directly to the marquee in Times Square. Not only is it dramatic, it avoids all these nasty practical technical problems.

KneadToKnow
01-27-2014, 01:57 PM
I want to know why the natives built the giant walls to keep Kong out and then built a Kong-sized gate.

If you had kids next door, the answer would be obvious: Kong built the wall to keep them out. The gate was just to allow easier access for maintenance.

CalMeacham
01-27-2014, 02:08 PM
I want to know why the natives built the giant walls to keep Kong out and then built a Kong-sized gate.

Well, the 1933 film claims that the wall was built in the distant past by the "higher civilization" that lived there. the (then) present-day natives just kept the wall in repair. Of course, that doesn't explain why they had to keep opening andclosing the Big Gate every time they wanted to put out a sacrifice. They coulda just cut a human-sized gate in the base of it to let people go in and out. Then they wouldn't have to keep greasing the giant hinges and replacing the giant Bar across the middle every century or so. Personal experience suggests thatpeople will tend to let something like that go if they can avoid it. In the Real World (a Real World that includes Giant Apes and oversized surviving dinosaurs) that giant gate would've rusted into immobility a long time ago.

But then we would've been deprived of that wonderful, climactic moment of Kong bursting through the doors.

terentii
01-27-2014, 07:32 PM
In Where Eagles Dare, Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton creep through a German castle, with Burton popping sentries left and right with a silenced pistol. Finally they reach the communications room, and Eastwood tries to sneak up with a knife on the one German in the entire castle sitting right next to an alarm button.

Fine, you think: Burton's run out of ammunition, so it's up to Clint to silence the Kraut the old-fashioned way.

Eastwood, of course, steps on a loose board and alerts the guy, who of course jumps out of his chair and slaps the button, alerting the whole castle that something's wrong ...

And as the first Ah-OOOOOOO-ga! Ah-OOOOOOO-ga! sounds, Burton shoots him in the back with the silenced pistol anyway!

WTF?!?

kunilou
01-27-2014, 07:41 PM
Why don't you just kill him? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xAMYHJYesM)

Rick Kitchen
01-27-2014, 09:23 PM
In Gladiator, a wounded Maximus rides a horse from Germany to his home in Spain, apparently bleeding all the way.

Sitnam
01-27-2014, 09:37 PM
The Day the Earth Stood Still- an alien from a peaceful collection of sophisticated planets shows up and tells us they've all created an intergalactic police force to regulate them. This democratically created police force suddenly applies to humans whether we like it or not and we're too violent, if we don't knock it off he'll blow us up.

RickJay
01-27-2014, 10:13 PM
There are a few significant holes in the original Star Wars films (the good ones.)

In "Star Wars," the 1977 film, the crew escapes from the Death Star with the deliberate allowance of Darth Vader, who has had a tracking device placed on the Millennium Falcon in the hopes that the Falcon will lead the Empire to the Rebel base. Princess Leia - the only person on the Falcon who knows where the hidden base is - is immediately suspicious that the Empire has done just this, and says so.

And yet she has them fly her directly to the Rebel Base. Let's be clear; Leia KNOWS they're being tracked, and knows that this will lead the Empire right to their base, and she lets them? That makes no sense at all. They literally come within about ten seconds of the base being vaporized solely because she doesn't have them just drop her off at a neutral spaceport. What?

Then in Return of the Jedi, the Empire has (as they do in every film; the Empire is always a step ahead of the Rebels and they still lose) come up with another scheme. Here they actually encourage the Rebels to assault the Death Star 2.0, allowing them all the information they need except the rather pertinent point that the Death Star 2.0 is actually totally operational and can blow up a battleship with the push of a button. It is, as the Admiral says, a trap!

So anyway the Rebel strike team, led by all the most important characters in the film shows up in a stolen shuttle to sneak onto the moon around which the allegedly undefended Death Star orbits and when they arrive the entire goddamned Imperial fleet is there. There's more Star Destroyers than stars. They all see it, and Luke even believes his father is aboard the immense Super Star Destroyer that they all see, and nobody says "Hey, wait a damned minute. This was supposed to be really ill-defended, and there's enough ships here to blow our fleet out of the sky in no time at all... maybe they're not as unsuspecting as we thought." Huh?

Don't get me wrong. They're GREAT films. But those are holes.

Son of a Rich
01-27-2014, 10:48 PM
The Day the Earth Stood Still- an alien from a peaceful collection of sophisticated planets shows up and tells us they've all created an intergalactic police force to regulate them. This democratically created police force suddenly applies to humans whether we like it or not and we're too violent, if we don't knock it off he'll blow us up.

I like how the alien landing is the biggest thing to ever happen on Earth, and yet as soon as the sun goes down the only people around the saucer are a couple of bored sentries.

terentii
01-27-2014, 11:10 PM
Leia KNOWS they're being tracked, and knows that this will lead the Empire right to their base, and she lets them? That makes no sense at all.

It makes even less sense that she has to deliver the Death Star plans in person at all. What, the Rebel Alliance doesn't have subspace communications she could use to transmit the data, and much faster than she could ever travel the distance in a spaceship?!? :dubious:

Little Nemo
01-28-2014, 12:17 AM
There are a few significant holes in the original Star Wars films (the good ones.)There's the whole Amidala issue. First she's the Queen of Naboo - okay, we can accept that. But then Lucas suddenly decides he doesn't want a hereditary monarchy so he declares she was elected queen and has her leaving office when her term is done.

So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

running coach
01-28-2014, 12:19 AM
So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

A guy was running for Queen? There's a flaw right there. :p

dasmoocher
01-28-2014, 01:12 AM
A guy was running for Queen? There's a flaw right there. :p

It was a more progressive galaxy before the Empire.

Robot Arm
01-28-2014, 01:56 AM
In The Blues Brothers, why are the Good Old Boys so pissed at Jake and Elwood? They didn't even show up at Bob's Country Bunker until after it was closed. Bob's the one who got stiffed for the bar tab. Maybe you'd be a little annoyed that someone went on in your place and pretended to be you, but mad enough to go chasing after them in a pickup and firing a shotgun? I don't buy it.

CalMeacham
01-28-2014, 06:38 AM
In Where Eagles Dare, Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton creep through a German castle, with Burton popping sentries left and right with a silenced pistol. Finally they reach the communications room, and Eastwood tries to sneak up with a knife on the one German in the entire castle sitting right next to an alarm button.

Fine, you think: Burton's run out of ammunition, so it's up to Clint to silence the Kraut the old-fashioned way.

Eastwood, of course, steps on a loose board and alerts the guy, who of course jumps out of his chair and slaps the button, alerting the whole castle that something's wrong ...

And as the first Ah-OOOOOOO-ga! Ah-OOOOOOO-ga! sounds, Burton shoots him in the back with the silenced pistol anyway!

WTF?!?


Where Eagles Dare is a collection of gross improbabilities (the entire plan, when you get to the end, as revealed is absolutely and completely ludicrous -- even more than it appears during the execution of it), but this detail that you describe is the one that struck Pepper Mill most forcefully when we saw it on Retro recently.


Please note that when Gregory Peck had to go into the Nazi Control Room Where the Guy Who Could Press the Alarm Button was listening to Classical Music and Disable the Guy (in the Movie Derived from an Alastair MacLean Novel) (in the first of them, the Guns of Navarone), he succeeded. He shot the guy.

Charlie Wayne
01-28-2014, 06:44 AM
In Titanic, the characters don't really seem to show much discomfiture as they're splashing around in the cabins, even though the water would have been near freezing. Adrenalin would only go so far.

Speaking of the Godfather: why the hell would the guys watching Frankie allow him to have a visit from Tom, the consigliere of the very guy who wants to kill him?

In King Kong, wouldn't taking a genuine dinosaur back to New York be more impressive than an ape, no matter how big he is?


Excellent point!

I love this film and have seen it many times. I especially love Naomi Watts. I think she was amazing in this movie when she danced for Kong. Yet it never occurred to me that it would have been so much easier to transport one of the smaller dinosaurs back to NYC than it would have been to transport Kong. So much less dangerous too.

People would have wanted to have seen a dinosaur so much more so than an ape. They would have paid much more to have seen one, too!

Bringing back that ape was just a terribly dangerous thing to do. And ... what an expense to tie him up and bring him all the way back.

Then, they could have brought back many, many diff dinosaurs and milked that for millions over many many years.

There was only one ape there but a multitude of dinos.

A most excellent point. I wonder why it never occurred to anyone else. I never imagined that I was that thick. Good for you!

chrisk
01-28-2014, 06:47 AM
There's the whole Amidala issue. First she's the Queen of Naboo - okay, we can accept that. But then Lucas suddenly decides he doesn't want a hereditary monarchy so he declares she was elected queen and has her leaving office when her term is done.

So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

I don't know how much power the Queen of Naboo actually has in Star Wars canon. I guess I assumed it was a figurehead job and the people of Naboo liked electing attractive teenagers. ;)

Charlie Wayne
01-28-2014, 06:52 AM
I want to know why the natives built the giant walls to keep Kong out and then built a Kong-sized gate.

ROFL! That is hilarious!

Surely they would have been better off to just kill him if they could. Why keep him alive and feed him for all those years?

If they were gonna build a fence, why not build it to keep him out and let him starve instead of keeping him in?

That truly was a glaring logic problem.

Again, that never dawned on me. I must be a real dummy. I am such a fan of this movie. I guess I was just blinded by the wonderful performance of Naomi Watts. What a babe she is!

Charlie Wayne
01-28-2014, 06:57 AM
Another film that I truly love is, The Eagle Has Landed (1976). I would very much like to hear what people think about some of the logic problems in that movie.

For example, Himmler forged Hitler's name on a letter giving huge power to the character portrayed by Robert Duvall. It seems to me that was just incredibly far fetched. If doing that was feasible, wouldn't we have heard of many other cases where 2nd tier officers in other armies forged their superior's signature to try and get away with all kinds of irregularities?

I guess it would have been easier to make that work in the Nazi army than most other armies. But, still, it seems incredulous to me that anyone would have ever tried to get away with such a thing. Absolutely incredulous!

Sefton
01-28-2014, 07:12 AM
Speaking of letters and signatures, in Casablanca, I doubt the Nazis would really have cared about Letters of Transit signed by Charles de Gaulle.

CalMeacham
01-28-2014, 07:26 AM
ROFL! That is hilarious!

Surely they would have been better off to just kill him if they could. Why keep him alive and feed him for all those years?

If they were gonna build a fence, why not build it to keep him out and let him starve instead of keeping him in?

That truly was a glaring logic problem.

Again, that never dawned on me. I must be a real dummy. I am such a fan of this movie. I guess I was just blinded by the wonderful performance of Naomi Watts. What a babe she is!

This is a put-on, right?


Jackson's 2005 king Kong 9the only one so far to star Naomi watts) didn't have a giant gate that swung open -- she was lowered on a crudely-constructed wooden ramp. When Kong came for her at the end, he broke through the very much closed gate (and apparently immobile), although he coulda simply climbed over the top. *

It was in the 1933 version and the awful 1976 remake that there were operable Kong-sized doors in the wall.


*Apparently Kong didn't like over-the-top performances.

Charlie Wayne
01-28-2014, 07:36 AM
This is a put-on, right?


Jackson's 2005 king Kong 9the only one so far to star Naomi watts) didn't have a giant gate that swung open -- she was lowered on a crudely-constructed wooden ramp. When Kong came for her at the end, he broke through the very much closed gate (and apparently immobile), although he coulda simply climbed over the top. *

It was in the 1933 version and the awful 1976 remake that there were operable Kong-sized doors in the wall.


*Apparently Kong didn't like over-the-top performances.



I suppose I may have misunderstood another post that implied there was a gigantic fence and a giant gate. Most of the time, my focus was on Naomi whereever possible.

Sorry.

ftg
01-28-2014, 08:01 AM
Speaking of letters and signatures, in Casablanca, I doubt the Nazis would really have cared about Letters of Transit signed by Charles de Gaulle.

Some people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film)#Errors_and_inaccuracies) hear "Weygand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxime_Weygand)", who had been a general assigned to North Africa up to a month before the time of the film. OTOH, no such letters existed nor would they have mattered at all to the local Vichy police under German control. Laszlo would have been arrested the second he showed up.

Hermione
01-28-2014, 08:02 AM
There's the whole Amidala issue. First she's the Queen of Naboo - okay, we can accept that. But then Lucas suddenly decides he doesn't want a hereditary monarchy so he declares she was elected queen and has her leaving office when her term is done.

So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

My theory is that Lucas was trying to play both ends against the middle. He wanted to make it fairy-tale-like, so he had a monarch, because kings and queens are an essential element of fairy tales.

But he also wanted to portray the Republic as a golden age, and for many, that means a democracy, not a monarchy. (He might also have been listening to some critics who accused him of glamorizing monarchies in the previous films.) So he jammed the two together--rather unsuccessfully.

If I'd been him, I would have gone ahead with the hereditary monarchy. It would have explained why such a young girl became queen. It also could have created a romantic obstacle without that Jedi marriage ban that I was never crazy about...a queen couldn't get away with marrying a former slave. (I'd also have made Anakin older in the first movie, but I'm not alone there.)

Son of a Rich
01-28-2014, 08:28 AM
Ooh, ooh,,,let's do Iron Man!
Are we to believe he flew the suit from California to Afganistan (or whatever that country was) nonstop to fight those rebels? How much gas did that thing hold anyway? And what's the properties of the suit that allows it to rip a wing off an aircraft in a midair collision without traumatizing the person wearing it? It didn't even put a dent in it.

KneadToKnow
01-28-2014, 08:32 AM
My favorite plot hole in Star Wars is that Tarkin orders Leia' terminated immediately, and then she's alive however long it is later when he wants her around.

It makes me wonder about the conversation in the termination squad locker room:

"Tarkin wants the girl taken out."

"Yeah, yeah. Remember last time? 'What do you mean, she's already dead? I still had questions for her!' Let's give it until Thursday."

astorian
01-28-2014, 08:36 AM
Speaking of letters and signatures, in Casablanca, I doubt the Nazis would really have cared about Letters of Transit signed by Charles de Gaulle.

The screenwriters themselves acknowledged that there was no such thing as "letters of transit" anyway.

Jophiel
01-28-2014, 08:41 AM
Ooh, ooh,,,let's do Iron Man!
Are we to believe he flew the suit from California to Afganistan (or whatever that country was) nonstop to fight those rebels? How much gas did that thing hold anyway?
Well, the point of the arc reactor (in his chest) was that it could provide an essentially unending source of energy. Not unlimited since it could be tapped beyond its ability to produce but, for something like flying, it could keep going for as long as you wanted it to. That's why he wanted to get the large version online that had eluded him for so long: peaceful clean energy for everyone.

running coach
01-28-2014, 08:47 AM
I suppose I may have misunderstood another post that implied there was a gigantic fence and a giant gate. Most of the time, my focus was on Naomi whereever possible.

Sorry.

Here's a shot (http://www.retroweb.com/40acres/king_kong_gate.jpg) from the 1933 film (on set).

lost4life
01-28-2014, 08:56 AM
The Day the Earth Stood Still- an alien from a peaceful collection of sophisticated planets shows up and tells us they've all created an intergalactic police force to regulate them. This democratically created police force suddenly applies to humans whether we like it or not and we're too violent, if we don't knock it off he'll blow us up.

It's been awhile, but I thought the reasoning was that the humans were now able to take their violence into space. They didn't care if we killed each other in horrible ways, but once we advanced to their turf, they were laying down their rules.

nevadaexile
01-28-2014, 09:06 AM
Aliens (1986): The Weyland-Yutani board meeting with Ripley disbelieves her story ( that her crew was killed by an alien lifeform that they were instructed to retrieve from the planet) when they really don't have much of a choice.

To state that you disbelieve Ripley is to believe that:
She somehow murdered her entire crew
She blew up the ship on which they were traveling and the refinery it was towing
She then abandoned the vessel in the lifeboat to save herself
She was able to tell a coherent story after being in stasis for 58 years


Either things happened roughly as she said that they did or she's a psychopathic mass murder. There really isn't any middle ground.

nevadaexile
01-28-2014, 09:16 AM
Speaking of letters and signatures, in Casablanca, I doubt the Nazis would really have cared about Letters of Transit signed by Charles de Gaulle.

Not that there were ever any Nazi officers or troops in Casablanca anyway. The British were having a rough time of things after France threw in the towel in 1940, but they definitely would have had "issues" with the Wehrmacht flanking their major naval base in Gibraltar by placing troops in Morocco ( right next door)

nevadaexile
01-28-2014, 09:19 AM
Ooh, ooh,,,let's do Iron Man!
Are we to believe he flew the suit from California to Afganistan (or whatever that country was) nonstop to fight those rebels? How much gas did that thing hold anyway? And what's the properties of the suit that allows it to rip a wing off an aircraft in a midair collision without traumatizing the person wearing it? It didn't even put a dent in it.

Unless he used a hyperbolic trajectory, it would have taken him endless hours to fly there. It's boring enough flying from New York to LA. The film completely ignores the length of time it would take for Iron Man (and later Iron Patriot/War Machine) to fly from the US mainland to Southwest Asia.

Justin_Bailey
01-28-2014, 09:24 AM
Speaking of the Godfather: why the hell would the guys watching Frankie allow him to have a visit from Tom, the consigliere of the very guy who wants to kill him?

Often, the Consigliere is considered an untouchable person by rival families. They also rarely perform hits themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consigliere

JKilez
01-28-2014, 09:49 AM
Either things happened roughly as she said that they did or she's a psychopathic mass murder. There really isn't any middle ground.
Or, she forgot to add coolant to the ship's reactor, and rather than own up to her mistake, she jumped in an escape pod and left everyone else to deal with the inevitable core meltdown.

Steve MB
01-28-2014, 10:17 AM
There's the whole Amidala issue. First she's the Queen of Naboo - okay, we can accept that. But then Lucas suddenly decides he doesn't want a hereditary monarchy so he declares she was elected queen and has her leaving office when her term is done.

So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

This reminds me of a Washington Post story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/rob-fords-scandal-filled-mayoral-years-through-the-eyes-of-people-who-lost-to-him/2013/11/20/53847a6a-5211-11e3-a7f0-b790929232e1_story.html) about the people who lost the Toronto mayoral election to Rob Ford.

GreenElf
01-28-2014, 10:28 AM
In Jurassic Park III, the Kirbys pose as adventure tourists to lure Dr. Grant to Jurassic Park Site B in a desperate attempt to save their son. Amanda went so far in her assumed role as adventure tourist that she repeatedly calls out over a megaphone after they first land there, drawing the attention of dinosaurs.

Dendarii Dame
01-28-2014, 10:30 AM
In the Curious George movie, there is no way that any nation would have allowed Ted to remove "The Lost Shrine of Zagawa" from its borders. It's a sacred relic, and very valuable.

In the same movie, I loved the question about the Shrine from the reporter at the press conference: "Is it made of solid gold?" She hasn't seen it yet, but she's seen posters, and the thing is about twenty feet high! It weighs tons! Which brings up the fact that it's made of solid granite, but it's ruby red.

In Disney's Cinderella, she finds a new mouse in a trap on a remote staircase. Why does she even have a mousetrap, especially since she's horrified to hear that a mouse is inside? The mice are her friends. There's no way the rest of the family checks for mousetrap placement.

Justin_Bailey
01-28-2014, 10:41 AM
In Jurassic Park III, the Kirbys pose as adventure tourists to lure Dr. Grant to Jurassic Park Site B in a desperate attempt to save their son. Amanda went so far in her assumed role as adventure tourist that she repeatedly calls out over a megaphone after they first land there, drawing the attention of dinosaurs.

The ruse was already up at that point.

Colibri
01-28-2014, 12:04 PM
So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

Considering that Naboo also selected Jar-Jar Binks as its delegate to the Galactic Senate, one must assume that the electorate was not among the most sophisticated in the galaxy.

davidw
01-28-2014, 12:26 PM
Often, the Consigliere is considered an untouchable person by rival families. They also rarely perform hits themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consigliere

But it wasn't a rival family holding Frank Pentangeli. It was the feds.

terentii
01-28-2014, 12:54 PM
But it wasn't a rival family holding Frank Pentangeli. It was the feds.

Wouldn't Frank be legally entitled to consult with a lawyer of his own choice? :dubious:

Balance
01-28-2014, 01:52 PM
Or, she forgot to add coolant to the ship's reactor, and rather than own up to her mistake, she jumped in an escape pod and left everyone else to deal with the inevitable core meltdown.
Exactly. The review board's position seemed to be that Ripley caused the destruction of the ship though negligence and made up a wacky excuse.

For a hole in a classic, how about one in Citizen Kane? I first encountered this one by way of an anecdote told by Spider Robinson, not having ever given the film much thought myself. (Classic though it may be, it's not a movie that has ever held my attention.) In the movie, much is made of Kane's last word.

He died alone. Who heard him say it?

Morbo
01-28-2014, 01:57 PM
Of course there's the much-talked about ones in Radiers of the Lost Ark. I can hand-wave away the "Indy should have stayed home, then Hitler would've had his face melted" one, and begrudgingly ignore the one about how when Indy climbed aboard the submarine it decided to stay on the surface, even though they showed scenes of the crew preparing to dive, which would have drowned him.

But the one that can't be explained is the fact that the Germans had a platoon inside Egypt, in 1936, digging for the Staff of Ra. Somehow I think the British would have had a problem with that.

JKilez
01-28-2014, 02:13 PM
He died alone. Who heard him say it?
This has been addressed in previous threads. His butler was there (although not onscreen) to hear his final words. The butler's presence is referred to twice in the movie.

Balance
01-28-2014, 02:18 PM
This has been addressed in previous threads. His butler was there (although not onscreen) to hear his final words. The butler's presence is referred to twice in the movie.
I'll take your word for it--as I said, it's not a movie that interests me much.

Dale Sams
01-28-2014, 02:30 PM
No specific film for this, but I notice it from time to time:

They'll show a car being driven in a crazy chase sequence, the guy blasts through the intersection and crashes horribly into the cross traffic....except...he had the green light.

JohnT
01-28-2014, 02:32 PM
Here's a shot (http://www.retroweb.com/40acres/king_kong_gate.jpg) from the 1933 film (on set).

Which you see on fire during the "burning of Atlanta" sequence in GWTW.

JohnT
01-28-2014, 02:50 PM
Aliens (1986): The Weyland-Yutani board meeting with Ripley disbelieves her story ( that her crew was killed by an alien lifeform that they were instructed to retrieve from the planet) when they really don't have much of a choice.

To state that you disbelieve Ripley is to believe that:
She somehow murdered her entire crew
She blew up the ship on which they were traveling and the refinery it was towing
She then abandoned the vessel in the lifeboat to save herself
She was able to tell a coherent story after being in stasis for 58 years


Either things happened roughly as she said that they did or she's a psychopathic mass murder. There really isn't any middle ground.

You forgot another option: The purpose of the board meeting was to discredit Ripley, not to investigate the truth or conduct a criminal investigation.

The board doesn't disbelieve Ripley. They know she's telling the truth - after all, the company was the one issuing the secret order in the first film, the one that ended with "Crew expendable." Their job is to make sure that everybody sees her as that slightly crazy, possibly dangerous crackpot.

One has to fanwank the "why didn't the company just kill Ripley" question - I assume that anybody found in space after 50+ years in hibernation would achieve some level of fame, therefore killing her wasn't an option.

erysichthon
01-28-2014, 02:54 PM
I like how the alien landing is the biggest thing to ever happen on Earth, and yet as soon as the sun goes down the only people around the saucer are a couple of bored sentries.
My favorite scene: a couple of doctors puffing on cigarettes as they discuss Klaatu's miraculous healing abilities.

What is the deal with low security in SF movies? In The Satan Bug, a biological warfare lab has a toxin capable of wiping out all life on Earth. It's stored in a GLASS flask and kept inside an ordinary refrigerator. The lab is surrounded by a chain-link fence, and there's a guy at the gate with an embroidered patch on his uniform that says "SECURITY GUARD."

In another thread I mentioned Lifeforce, in which the body of an extraterrestrial (aka naked Mathilda May) is kept in an unlocked room in the basement of a London office building, guarded by pudgy guys who are slurping coffee and stuffing their faces with sandwiches.

JohnT
01-28-2014, 03:14 PM
I would think that guarding a naked Mathilda May would be the sort of task one would fight for, regardless of rank.

"Why is the captain, chief of police, and the commissioner guarding that one prisoner? Ohhh..."

Annie-Xmas
01-28-2014, 03:18 PM
Remmington Steele. Nobody will use a female private investigator, so she invents a male name to use and then subs for him. A guy walks in claiming to be Remmington Steele, and she works with him, despite knowing nothing about who he really is.

You're a private eye, lady. Can't you find out who this joker is??? I wouldn't hire you either if you couldn't.

ExTank
01-28-2014, 05:31 PM
You forgot another option: The purpose of the board meeting was to discredit Ripley, not to investigate the truth or conduct a criminal investigation.

The board doesn't disbelieve Ripley. They know she's telling the truth - after all, the company was the one issuing the secret order in the first film, the one that ended with "Crew expendable." Their job is to make sure that everybody sees her as that slightly crazy, possibly dangerous crackpot.

This. It's even possible the orginators of the Nostromo's secret orders dumped the secret file from the computers to cover their tracks, and have long since retired/passed away, leaving no one in the "present" to have any idea about any secret orders from decades ago.

So from the POV of Weyland-Yutani, Ripley's story smack of paranoid delusion, yet (and they even say it), there's some evidence to corroborate her story, like perhaps some unexplained pitting/scarring on the outside of the shuttle, or on the engine nacelle, from after Ripley harpooned the beastie.


One has to fanwank the "why didn't the company just kill Ripley" question - I assume that anybody found in space after 50+ years in hibernation would achieve some level of fame, therefore killing her wasn't an option.

I partially agree, but it doesn't even need ot be that elaborate; she was found, awakened, and treated by people not employed by Weyland-Yutani.

Balance
01-28-2014, 05:34 PM
The board doesn't disbelieve Ripley. They know she's telling the truth - after all, the company was the one issuing the secret order in the first film, the one that ended with "Crew expendable." Their job is to make sure that everybody sees her as that slightly crazy, possibly dangerous crackpot.
While they do want to discredit her, they don't necessarily know that she's telling the truth. It's been a long time, and those responsible for the order likely made an effort to cover their tracks when the Nostromo went missing; they wouldn't have wanted to risk being blamed for losing the ship. That, combined with decades of bureaucratic shuffling, retirements, and people dying off could plausibly leave the board ignorant of the real events.

Burke seems to be the only one who thought she might be telling the truth, and he was--from his perspective--betting on a longshot in hopes of a big payoff in either cash or career advancement.

JohnT
01-28-2014, 05:58 PM
IMHO, somebody knows something, otherwise Burke wouldn't have acted like Burke, defending the company's interests. Regardless, you are right - the Board is likely just as in the dark about real events driven by the true power brokers on Weyland-whatever as Ripley is.

But there's no evidence to conclusively support one theory or another, probably for the better. Makes it more interesting.

terentii
01-28-2014, 06:15 PM
I assume that anybody found in space after 50+ years in hibernation would achieve some level of fame.

Why? Wasn't this rather common in their spacefaring society? :confused:

ExTank
01-28-2014, 06:42 PM
There are a few significant holes in the original Star Wars films (the good ones.)

In "Star Wars," the 1977 film, the crew escapes from the Death Star with the deliberate allowance of Darth Vader, who has had a tracking device placed on the Millennium Falcon in the hopes that the Falcon will lead the Empire to the Rebel base. Princess Leia - the only person on the Falcon who knows where the hidden base is - is immediately suspicious that the Empire has done just this, and says so.

And yet she has them fly her directly to the Rebel Base.

Have you seen this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoeEdW-EDQ) I love the expression on Chewie's face.

In fairness, Leia really didn't have much choice. Han wasn't going to let his big payday just go traipsing off with a "We'll catch ya later and square up with that reward thing," and he wasn't going to leave the Falcon on some out-of-the-way planet to go with Leia on an non-trackable ship to the Secret Rebel Base (TM).

Plus, even if they did do that, whatever planet they left the Falcon on would've still gotten the finger from the Death Star, and I don't see Leia just sentencing a few million/billion innocents to die (even if it was an Imperial-conrolled world) just to cover her tracks.

Even if we delved into the EU (which didn't exist at the time of the writing/filming of the original movie), and thought in non-Heroic/practical terms, Han would have to try to contact somebody like Doc and Jessa (see Han Solo at Star's End, by Brian Daley), arrange a meet, and have them try to get the homing beacon located and removed.

This is problematic, since, while Doc and Jessa like Han, they don't work for free, and don't strike me as the sort to accept an IOU from a dispossessed Rebel Princess, and wouldn't let a (even suspected) trackable Falcon within 12 parsecs of their hidden/secret outlaw tech base.

If Han didn't tell them up front what the real deal was, they would be mighty chuff if he admitted after arriving at their hidden/secret outlaw tech base that he thought that the Falcon was being tracked by the Empire's new planet-destroying super-weapon, and could they please locate/remove said suspected homing beacon?

"Chuff" being defined as shoot Han and everyone with him in the head, dump their bodies in a shallow grave (if that), and do the bug out boogie toot-sweet, leaving the Falcon sitting there for the Empire to find.

But if we're going to be practical like that, Leia could have had Han take her to a Rebel-friendly world long enough to drop her, Luke, the droids, and Han off, while Chewie takes off in the Falcon to fly a zany/crazy zig-zag course, stopping briefly at a bunch of worlds to confuse the Empire's tracking.

Leia contacts a Rebel cell and arranges alternate transport to Yavin IV, delivers the plans, gives Han his big reward, and even arranges safe transport for Han to leave and later hook back up with Chewie. Tracking problem solved. And an additional ~30 minutes tacked onto the movie.

terentii
01-28-2014, 07:15 PM
Tracking problem solved. And an additional ~30 minutes tacked onto the movie.

... Which studio execs had already ordered cut because it ran over two hours, leading audiences eternally to murmur "Biggs? Who's Biggs?" :confused:

Instead of spicing it up with all sorts of unnecessary CGI, Lucas should have restored the missing scenes.

teela brown
01-28-2014, 07:24 PM
Also in The Blues Brothers:

I know that Jake and Elwood were trying to find all the original members and reunite their band. However, why on earth didn't they glom onto Aretha Franklin once they heard her sing? I'm sure her husband was talented and all, but Aretha would have made their band a superstar band that earned buttloads of money.

Instead they just left her in that dumpy diner. What a couple of dumbasses.

RadioWave
01-28-2014, 07:33 PM
Speaking of asses, I can overlook magic faeries and wooden boys but I always balk at the economics of Pinnochio. Apparently, you can kidnap hundreds of small children from their parents, transport them over land and sea to Pleasure Island, spoil them with unlimited candy, cigars and booze while they do tens of thousands of dollars in property damage all to get a few donkeys out of it. I can't help but think it would be cheaper to put a couple of donkeys in a pen with a copy of Playmule magazine.

ExTank
01-28-2014, 08:02 PM
Is this a logic flaw/implausibilty? Or just plot-convenient arrogance/stupidity?

Imperial Officer: "Governor Tarkin, we detect 30 Rebel ships on an intercept course."

Governor Tarkin: " :cool: Our turbolaser batteries should suffice to deal with them."

IO: "They're small one-man fighters, Sir. Our guns may not be able to target and track them."

GT: :mad: :smack: "Oh, very well. :rolleyes: How many one-man fighters do we have?"

IO: "Somewhere north of 7,000, Sir"

GT: :dubious: "You can't be more precise than that?"

IO: "Against thirty Rebel fighters? :dubious: Do I need to be?"

GT: "Point taken. :D Launch them."

IO: :eek: "All of them?"

GT: "Sure. Why not? :confused: I mean, we have them, they're just sitting there on their launch rails, pilots are standing by... :rolleyes:"

IO: "Very well, Sir. :cool: I will give the order immediately."

And thus an unknown farmboy from an obscure desert world dies a quick, fiery, unnoticed, and unremarked (except for some grim, Imperial, "Oh, those silly, stupid, Rebel sunsabitches" humor) death.

Lumpy
01-28-2014, 08:41 PM
The Empire Strikes Back: As soon as you see that even your heavy emplacement guns can't take out the advancing enemy armor, why is your infantry holding position with small arms?

Dale Sams
01-28-2014, 09:00 PM
The Empire Strikes Back: As soon as you see that even your heavy emplacement guns can't take out the advancing enemy armor, why is your infantry holding position with small arms?

End of ROTJ:

Luke: "Oh, look! It's the two assholes who didn't tell me about Force Lightning!"

ExTank
01-28-2014, 09:07 PM
:smack: An entire sentence just upped and disappeared from my previous post.

It went:

So, the Death Star, 120 km in diameter, armed with thousands upon thousands of TIE Fighters, is being attacked by 30 Rebel fighters. Even assuming there were 10 times as many as we saw on-screen (what was it? 8? 10? flying in formation against the X-Wings?), isn't that still kind of paltry?

Wouldn't the conversation go a bit more like this:

Balance
01-28-2014, 10:23 PM
Why? Wasn't this rather common in their spacefaring society? :confused:
Burke: "They, uh, they tell me that all the weakness and disorientation should pass soon. It's just natural side effects of such an unusually long hypersleep, or something like that. "

Burke: "You were out there for fifty-seven years. What happened was, you had drifted right through the core systems, and it's really just blind luck that a deep salvage team found you when they did. It's one in a thousand, really. I think you're damn lucky to be alive, kiddo. You could be floating out there forever."

So, not so common.

We also don't know how much of a stir the loss of the Nostromo may have caused--since it had been diverted from its official course by a secret order, it's likely no remnants of the ship were ever found. So, assuming the company wasn't able to cover it up completely, the public impression would be of an enormous ship on a routine run that simply vanished with all hands--sort of like an tanker disappearing in the Atlantic without leaving so much as oil slick.

If it caught public attention, there'd be conspiracy theories, (incorrect) speculation about alien attacks, pirate stories, ghost ship legends...and then, years later, one survivor appears, rescued by an incredible coincidence.

Think she'd draw some attention?

JohnT
01-29-2014, 07:41 AM
Why? Wasn't this rather common in their spacefaring society? :confused:

She was lost for 50+ years, her ship destroyed by a core (nuclear) explosion, and declared dead. I'm pretty sure that her being found became a blurb on some website (or equivalent) somewhere.

OTOH, Ripley does live in an unbelievably advanced civilization: They have FTL, have expanded at least 33 light years from Earth, achieved artificial gravity through a means so small that it works on shuttles, have a coldsleep system that lasts decades (how the thing found mass to keep Ripley fed all those years is something else unexplained), and they can terraform planets.

So maybe "yet another astronaut found after being in coldsleep for 50 years" news stories aren't really news enough as they would expect you to live 50+ years in a shuttle... ;)

Edward The Head
01-29-2014, 07:56 AM
Of course there's the much-talked about ones in Radiers of the Lost Ark. I can hand-wave away the "Indy should have stayed home, then Hitler would've had his face melted" one, and begrudgingly ignore the one about how when Indy climbed aboard the submarine it decided to stay on the surface, even though they showed scenes of the crew preparing to dive, which would have drowned him.

In that universe there is a god, who seems to be at least somewhat actively involved in stuff. There was a scene, can't remember if it was shot or not, that shows the sub going down but with a bubble around Indy.

But the one that can't be explained is the fact that the Germans had a platoon inside Egypt, in 1936, digging for the Staff of Ra. Somehow I think the British would have had a problem with that.

This is a different universe, do we know who controls Egypt at the time? Besides, archaeologists are in enemy territory all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Americans in Iran right now. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the British just said, "you're paying for all the works and equipment? Go right right ahead, knock yourselves out."

terentii
01-29-2014, 08:09 AM
Think she'd draw some attention?

Maybe. Like one of those Japanese soldiers in the South Pacific who went for decades without knowing WWII was over. Interesting for a day or two, then she fades into obscurity as the Bermuda Triangle--type stories resume. ;)

JohnT
01-29-2014, 08:11 AM
Yet, here we are, referencing those soldiers 50+ years later...

Jack Batty
01-29-2014, 08:16 AM
Rounders has a great many issues that gloss over actual poker strategy and stuff, but I'm willing to let most of it slide. However, at the end of the movie, I've always had a problem with Gramma's reaction to Mike taking Teddy KGB down. I suppose, Gramma was supposed to be just some big dumb oaf, but it seems to me he was deep into the the underground poker world; he must have been able to pick up a few things ... for example, when the other guy has all of your chips, the game is pretty much over. But he sat there watching Mike rake chips from KGB all night long, to the point where KGB was completely busted, and he says, "What are you waiting for Teddy - take the kid down." That would be like saying, "what are you waiting for Hiroshima, win the war!"

Bellhorn
01-29-2014, 08:45 AM
It Happens Every Spring was a favorite of mine when I was a kid -- a local tv station used to show it every year on the Sunday before baseball's opening day. I just watched it last weekend for the first time in 40 years and I was appalled.

Ray Milland plays a mild-mannered, chemistry professor who accidentally invents a formulation that repels wood. So he rubs it on a baseball and then joins the St. Louis Cardinals, where he spends the season repelling baseball bats, compiling a record of 35-0, presumably all no-hitters. HE CHEATS.

Flaws:
Milland's character, a college professor, mind you, experiences no ethical dilemma or remorse. Not one second.

He does a horrible job of disguising it. He cheats by soaking a sponge with his magic substance, placing in the palm of his glove hand and cuts a hole in the center of his glove.

Yet, not once does any umpire or opposing manager or league official check Milland's character for illegal substances, even though his ball literally hops over the bat.

This guy makes Barry Bonds look like a choir boy.

And although the movie is a comedy, it's not a complete baseball fantasy like Angels in the Outfield -- in every other facet it tries to be realistic.

One thing that I still liked: Milland wins 3 games in the World Series to screw the Yankees out of another championship.

Soylent Juicy
01-29-2014, 08:51 AM
All I want to know is why Thurston and Lovey Howell felt the need to bring trunks full of stuff on a "three hour tour".

Sauron
01-29-2014, 09:29 AM
All I want to know is why Thurston and Lovey Howell felt the need to bring trunks full of stuff on a "three hour tour".

Those trunks contained the plans for the Death Star and Ripley's comatose body.

Zeldar
01-29-2014, 09:38 AM
All I want to know is why Thurston and Lovey Howell felt the need to bring trunks full of stuff on a "three hour tour".

Wow! This could be a whole 'nother thread! Just how many movies and shows have had the wardrobe department go ape with costume changes for folks in isolated situations? Not long ago I rewatched Quigley Down Under (1990) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102744/?ref_=nv_sr_1) and was astounded at the silliness of Selleck and San Giacomo being taken out in the outback (or some place far from anything) in a wagon and tossed out to die of exposure or hunger or dingo bites. They wander around trying to get to someplace where there would be some level of salvation and each scene they're wearing new clothes!

There have to be dozens to hundreds of similar cases.

Telperion
01-29-2014, 09:39 AM
:smack: An entire sentence just upped and disappeared from my previous post.

It went:

So, the Death Star, 120 km in diameter, armed with thousands upon thousands of TIE Fighters, is being attacked by 30 Rebel fighters. Even assuming there were 10 times as many as we saw on-screen (what was it? 8? 10? flying in formation against the X-Wings?), isn't that still kind of paltry?

Wouldn't the conversation go a bit more like this:

An aircraft carrier can carry 90 planes, but they can't exactly launch all at once.

stegon66
01-29-2014, 09:41 AM
Currently watching the short-lived tv version of Logan's Run.

Logan and Jessica never change outfits, despite running into different bands of humans in every episode who could presumably give them some new threads.

The pursuing Sandmen never seem to think "Hey, people ARE able to live outside the City of Domes contrary to what we've been told! So why are we trying to take Logan back where he can be brainwashed into saying the opposite? Are they going to do the same thing to us?"


Also, The Planet of the Apes tv series:

Again, the protagonists never seem to change outfits.

The two astronauts are forever knocking out pursuing apes but NEVER take their rifles or destroy them. Makes perfect sense! Leave your enemy alive and armed...

Bricker
01-29-2014, 09:54 AM
All I want to know is why Thurston and Lovey Howell felt the need to bring trunks full of stuff on a "three hour tour".

It was a tour from Hawaii to Oahu, or something like that -- in other words, they had luggage because they were travelling from Point A to Point B, and the storm left them at Point I.

Dale Sams
01-29-2014, 10:06 AM
Currently watching the short-lived tv version of Logan's Run.

Logan and Jessica never change outfits, despite running into different bands of humans in every episode who could presumably give them some new threads.

The pursuing Sandmen never seem to think "Hey, people ARE able to live outside the City of Domes contrary to what we've been told! So why are we trying to take Logan back where he can be brainwashed into saying the opposite? Are they going to do the same thing to us?"


Also, The Planet of the Apes tv series:

Again, the protagonists never seem to change outfits.

The two astronauts are forever knocking out pursuing apes but NEVER take their rifles or destroy them. Makes perfect sense! Leave your enemy alive and armed...

Dude. That's what I love so much about Predator 2. First, it's Old-ass Danny Glover doing a better job then Ah-nuld did. And, he takes the Predator weapon! He uses it more than once! And then at the end, "Allright, who's next."

Badass.

Dale Sams
01-29-2014, 10:19 AM
I'll list my Walking Dead ones:

1) Are we talking about a Zombiocalypse where, 90% of everyone turned into zombies via disease or is it a Living Dead situation where the dead started rising and then they killed 90% of everyone off? And if they don't know...why TF don't they talk about it? The distinction is critical. If it's the latter, for all anyone knows...vast parts of the world could be zombie-free and the goal should be finding out what happened.

2) FFS wear proper clothing. At least long sleeved shirts. As I've written elsewhere, Ren-Faire guys and their home-made padded armor would rule the world.

3) Putting aside going out and finding more tanks and anti-personnel carriers....get in a frigging mack truck, find some highway near your base and start firing off your weapons to draw zombies. Run the zombies over. Rinse, repeat until zombies stop showing up.

ExTank
01-29-2014, 11:46 AM
An aircraft carrier can carry 90 planes, but they can't exactly launch all at once.

Well, I never said they'd launch all of them at once, just send all of them into the battle.

Geek check: The Death Star is NOT the U.S. Nimitz. Have you seen TIE launch racks? (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DWn71Doe6p0/UHs2x5t7w2I/AAAAAAAAA0A/luTpi4ZxWY4/s1600/tormentor_2012_073.jpg)

It looks like they can shoot them out at a pretty good clip.

MrAtoz
01-29-2014, 12:00 PM
It was a tour from Hawaii to Oahu, or something like that -- in other words, they had luggage because they were travelling from Point A to Point B, and the storm left them at Point I.

The truth (http://www.sff.net/people/adam-troy/random/theories.htm) is more sinister.

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 12:14 PM
You forgot another option: The purpose of the board meeting was to discredit Ripley, not to investigate the truth or conduct a criminal investigation.

The board doesn't disbelieve Ripley. They know she's telling the truth - after all, the company was the one issuing the secret order in the first film, the one that ended with "Crew expendable." Their job is to make sure that everybody sees her as that slightly crazy, possibly dangerous crackpot.

One has to fanwank the "why didn't the company just kill Ripley" question - I assume that anybody found in space after 50+ years in hibernation would achieve some level of fame, therefore killing her wasn't an option.

Ok…they "know" that she's telling the truth…but then they fabricate a story which they then feed to whatever governmental body investigates space-related mishaps in the future? And they get Ripley to go along with this…how?

Even assuming that the future is as corrupt (or more so) than the present (which the film's universe basically skewers by the concerns about about getting the Xenamorphs through "Quarantine", a non-issue or a minor one in a corrupt system) then Ripley was still free after the hearing to tell her story to whoever would listen.

A person who returns from 58 years stranded in space would have a great deal of credibility even in a future where this would be "common." How the company would deal with that is never addressed as Ripley could have become exceptionally wealthy and famous telling such a tale.

I can understand that making a two hour film is difficult. But when you have a finished script in your hands and you read it through, the plot holes in it should become apparent. If you can glaze them over, cool. If you can't (like why wasn't there a crew on board The Sulaco) then you really better hope that you put in enough action to distract the audience,

pravnik
01-29-2014, 12:22 PM
I love The Warriors so I try very hard when I watch it not to think about the premise. "Every gang in NYC is looking for us, so we have to bop our way on foot and by subway all the way back from Brooklyn to Coney wearing our colors." God God, that's the last thing you should do! Steal a couple of cars! You're the delegates of a much larger gang, have the one guy with a shirt take his vest off, find a payphone, and make a collect call for someone to come pick you up! Get a flophouse hotel room! Run the opposite direction! Mug people for their shirts, split up, wait until the next day and go home individually! Anything!

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 12:23 PM
While they do want to discredit her, they don't necessarily know that she's telling the truth. It's been a long time, and those responsible for the order likely made an effort to cover their tracks when the Nostromo went missing; they wouldn't have wanted to risk being blamed for losing the ship. That, combined with decades of bureaucratic shuffling, retirements, and people dying off could plausibly leave the board ignorant of the real events.

Burke seems to be the only one who thought she might be telling the truth, and he was--from his perspective--betting on a longshot in hopes of a big payoff in either cash or career advancement.

I hadn't mentioned Burke because that brings up another HUGE plot hole: The company was terraforming a distant moon…why again? Also, since terraforming itself would have (by definition) changed its entire ecosystem, nobody did a survey to make certain that no other sentient species was living on (or inside) of it?

Aliens states that other races have been encountered by humanity (the Marines joking about having sex with aliens and their also referring to their mission as "just another bug hunt") so it would be rather remiss (read: genocidal) to terraform a moon without first thoroughly surveying it to determine that indigenous life forms might be eradicated (or worse, declare war upon your species) for completely ravaging their home.

The colonists REALLY should have found the Xenamorphs prior to Burke letting them know that they were there. They also should have been smart enough 58 years into the future to be able to handle them without killing off everyone at the complex.

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 12:25 PM
I love The Warriors so I try very hard when I watch it not to think about the premise. "Every gang in NYC is looking for us, so we have to bop our way on foot and by subway all the way back from Brooklyn to Coney wearing our colors." God God, that's the last thing you should do! Steal a couple of cars! You're the delegates of a much larger gang, have the one guy with a shirt take his vest off, find a payphone, and make a collect call for someone to come pick you up! Get a flophouse hotel room! Run the opposite direction! Mug people for their shirts, split up, wait until the next day and go home individually! Anything!

Hop some cabs and cruise back to Coney Island in style

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 12:40 PM
The truth (http://www.sff.net/people/adam-troy/random/theories.htm) is more sinister.

After recently viewing several episodes during the marathon which aired in the wake of Russell Johnson's death (RIP Professor) I also notice sociopathic most the people who encountered the castaways really were.

Think about it: Nobody is bothered enough by seven people stranded upon a remote island for them to contact the authorities and let them know that this was happening? Not even an anonymous letter stating the island's coordinates and what was occurring?

That's almost Nazi levels of human depravity there as the castaways could have easily starved to death or died of illness on that island. And this is a series which was made before American television was considered to be "violent" or a dangerous influence to the young.

Gilligan's Island
Very dark indeed.

HeyHomie
01-29-2014, 01:15 PM
Two in The Middle:

1) Sue turned 16 recently, and got her driver's license. But in a 2012 episode it was her birthday, and it was memorable because it supposed to be her actual birthday (she was born on Feb 29th- a Leap Year baby). So that means that on February 29th, 2012, Sue turned either 16 or 12. Neither situation is possible.

2) The young actor who plays Brick has a medical problem that is simply not addressed on the show. Which would be fine, except the poor guy has a terrible limp (obvious on the show) and IS WEARING BRACES BENEATH HIS PANTS (also obvious on the show). Yet no mention is ever made of Brick having any medical issues.

JohnT
01-29-2014, 02:03 PM
Ok…they "know" that she's telling the truth…but then they fabricate a story which they then feed to whatever governmental body investigates space-related mishaps in the future? And they get Ripley to go along with this…how?

Even assuming that the future is as corrupt (or more so) than the present (which the film's universe basically skewers by the concerns about about getting the Xenamorphs through "Quarantine", a non-issue or a minor one in a corrupt system) then Ripley was still free after the hearing to tell her story to whoever would listen.

A person who returns from 58 years stranded in space would have a great deal of credibility even in a future where this would be "common." How the company would deal with that is never addressed as Ripley could have become exceptionally wealthy and famous telling such a tale.

I can understand that making a two hour film is difficult. But when you have a finished script in your hands and you read it through, the plot holes in it should become apparent. If you can glaze them over, cool. If you can't (like why wasn't there a crew on board The Sulaco) then you really better hope that you put in enough action to distract the audience,

A "governmental body (that) investigates space-related mishaps" assumes facts not in evidence.

If you assume the Marines represent some government, I'll be glad to grant that while noting that W-Y still sent a company representative who had a form of operational control.

I think it's easier to swallow the events of the movie if you assume that W-Y is a major power in this civilization, at least as influential than any single government, and that they are still wanting the alien for their weapons division. For whatever reason they still couldn't brazenly march in and get the alien, but why not spend $ on a "multi-million dollar facility", knowing that you can then "discover" the alien by accident and con the government (if it exists) into providing a troop of marines for support?

Balance
01-29-2014, 02:13 PM
I hadn't mentioned Burke because that brings up another HUGE plot hole: The company was terraforming a distant moon…why again?
Because, for whatever reason, they were being paid to do so. It isn't played up much in the movies, but it seems Earth is not a very nice place anymore in the setting. It's apparently not a total crapsack--Ripley can at least find private lodging even with her low-end job--but enough people want to move away that they're establishing colonies. So, Weyland-Yutani got into the real estate business, terraforming other worlds for those people to move to. Finding valuable stuff on those worlds is a bonus.

Also, since terraforming itself would have (by definition) changed its entire ecosystem, nobody did a survey to make certain that no other sentient species was living on (or inside) of it?
This is a corporate culture that thinks nothing of sacrificing human lives on the off chance of increasing their profits. How much do you think they care about native life on any given rock they decide to set up shop on? The Marines' derisive "bug hunt" comments bear this out--clearly, it's a common practice to simply eliminate alien life forms that present a problem.

Between the fact that there was no native life on LV-426, the derelict's beacon being offline, and a cursory survey aimed mainly at picking a good place to set up the processing plant, it's not that surprising they thought it was completely lifeless. Even if it hadn't been, however, it's unlikely that W-Y would have cared.

terentii
01-29-2014, 02:50 PM
The colonists REALLY should have found the Xenamorphs prior to Burke letting them know that they were there.

Xenomorphs. The word is xenomorph (Greek for "alien form"). IIRC, Lucy Lawless had nothing to do with them. ;)

JohnT
01-29-2014, 02:52 PM
Because, for whatever reason, they were being paid to do so. It isn't played up much in the movies, but it seems Earth is not a very nice place anymore in the setting. It's apparently not a total crapsack--Ripley can at least find private lodging even with her low-end job--but enough people want to move away that they're establishing colonies. So, Weyland-Yutani got into the real estate business, terraforming other worlds for those people to move to. Finding valuable stuff on those worlds is a bonus.

Interesting. I've always pictured the Earth civilization as being very wealthy and advanced, but to achieve this it became a corporatocracy, a uber-capitalist society where people are well taken care of, but only if they conform to corporate policy.

This is a corporate culture that thinks nothing of sacrificing human lives on the off chance of increasing their profits. How much do you think they care about native life on any given rock they decide to set up shop on? The Marines' derisive "bug hunt" comments bear this out--clearly, it's a common practice to simply eliminate alien life forms that present a problem.

Between the fact that there was no native life on LV-426, the derelict's beacon being offline, and a cursory survey aimed mainly at picking a good place to set up the processing plant, it's not that surprising they thought it was completely lifeless. Even if it hadn't been, however, it's unlikely that W-Y would have cared.

Eh, again I think it makes more sense (or at least adds more to the movie) to assume that the alien has remained a corporate goal since the secret message in the first movie, and that hasn't changed in the sequel. Hence the "colony" that was nothing more than bait.

Inner Stickler
01-29-2014, 02:56 PM
Xenomorphs. The word is xenomorph (Greek for "alien form"). IIRC, Lucy Lawless had nothing to do with them. ;)
Too late. Headcanon accepted.

Lumpy
01-29-2014, 02:59 PM
That's almost Nazi levels of human depravity there as the castaways could have easily starved to death or died of illness on that island. And this is a series which was made before American television was considered to be "violent" or a dangerous influence to the young.

Gilligan's Island
Very dark indeed.Nah, Gilligan's Island takes place in what I call "The Wacky Hijinks Universe", where the repeated use of supernatural power (My Favorite Martian, Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie) has weakened the fabric of reality so that while almost any impossibly absurd thing can happen (The Beverly Hillbillies, Green Acres, Petticoat Junction), in balance anything really seriously wrong or evil almost never happens.

Case in point: on Bewitched there is a proud and arrogant race of humanoids with almost godlike power, who view "mortals" as savages as best; and yet they are content to keep themselves aloof and hidden from the world and at most play the occasional prank on people, instead of raping, torturing and killing mortals for amusement.

Balance
01-29-2014, 03:49 PM
Too late. Headcanon accepted.
That would be the Arcturians, I imagine. The whole race looks like that. Hence, "It don't matter if it's Arcturian, baby."

Ethilrist
01-29-2014, 03:56 PM
Brady Bunch. Nine people. One bathroom.

Annie-Xmas
01-29-2014, 03:57 PM
Stepford Wives: Nobody notices the wives have been replaced with robots? Mothers, fathers, siblings, children?

Rosemary's Baby: A woman nine month's pregnant with the devil's child is walking around NYC. What if she goes into labor and is rushed to the hospital? Sheesh. The doctor/cult member would have put her on bed rest at home from month seven till she delivered.

Bellhorn
01-29-2014, 04:10 PM
The classic flaw, that's been debated for over 60 years, is "What did Ozzie Nelson do for a living?"

When the radio show "The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet" moved to TV, Ozzie was still in his 40s, too young to be retired. Ozzie basically spent his time meddling in people's lives for 14 years. When I watched the show in the early 60s, as a kid, it didn't really bother me. But when I watched the reruns in the mid-80s (on Nick, I, think) Ozzie's lack of employment really bothered me. Why didn't they even come up with something even semi-plausible; full mental disability, inherited wealth, welfare cheat, living off of investments. But not a mention how he put two kids through USC and through law school. I know, in real life, he was a retired band leader, so why not use that as part of his background on the show?

Annie-Xmas
01-29-2014, 04:12 PM
Surprised nobody has mentioned House. How did that man and his team stay out of prison?

Skald the Rhymer
01-29-2014, 04:17 PM
Brady Bunch. Nine people. One bathroom.

More like six people, one bathroom. We never see Alice using the kids' bathroom, and more than once we see Carol or Mike coming out of a bathroom attached to the master bedroom.

Anyway, I came from a big family,a nd we had one full bath and one half bath attached to the master bedroom. It was doable.

Skald the Rhymer
01-29-2014, 04:18 PM
Surprised nobody has mentioned House. How did that man and his team stay out of prison?

Didn't he eventually go to prison, between the next-to-last and last seasons?

terentii
01-29-2014, 05:08 PM
The classic flaw, that's been debated for over 60 years, is "What did Ozzie Nelson do for a living?"

IIRC, he was asked the same question once on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.

His reply? "I don't know; they never told me!"

bucketybuck
01-29-2014, 05:34 PM
Brady Bunch. Nine people. One bathroom.

I grew up in a family of nine. One bathroom.

Roundabout
01-29-2014, 06:23 PM
Superman: The Movie - The infamous time reversal scene. While emotional and epic in scope, this ending has never made any sense. From Superman letting the missile go off a second time (evidenced by Jimmy), to the crevice not opening under Lois's car like before. Plus, wouldn't reversing time mean that California had to be saved all over again? It's all implausible.

The Dark Knight - The Joker blows up an entire police station, yet he and Lao were the only ones unharmed. Worse yet, The Joker was within the bomb's immediate blast radius. At the very least, he'd be knocked down by the shock wave.

Dale Sams
01-29-2014, 06:30 PM
Superman: The Movie - The infamous time reversal scene. While emotional and epic in scope, this ending has never made any sense. From Superman letting the missile go off a second time (evidenced by Jimmy), to the crevice not opening under Lois's car like before. Plus, wouldn't reversing time mean that California had to be saved all over again? It's all implausible.

The Dark Knight - The Joker blows up an entire police station, yet he and Lao were the only ones unharmed. Worse yet, The Joker was within the bomb's immediate blast radius. At the very least, he'd be knocked down by the shock wave.

Speaking of Superman...I believe the bomb was a 100 (!!!!) megaton bomb. The largest nuclear weapon ever exploded was only 58 MT.

A 100 MT bomb would (and did I suppose since Supes didn't stop it) have catastrophic effects on all the beachfront Nevada property Lex bought.

AppallingGael
01-29-2014, 06:52 PM
I love The Warriors so I try very hard when I watch it not to think about the premise. "Every gang in NYC is looking for us, so we have to bop our way on foot and by subway all the way back from Brooklyn to Coney wearing our colors."

From the Bronx. Coney Island is in Brooklyn.

My favorite part was near the beginning, where they showed each Warrior en route to the powwow dutifully pay his subway fare before boarding the system. I was a young teen when the movie came out, and I remember hearing (false, I assume) rumors of stabbings and such occurring in theatres where the movie played. I was surprised when I finally saw it and how silly it all was.

Roundabout
01-29-2014, 06:55 PM
Speaking of Superman...I believe the bomb was a 100 (!!!!) megaton bomb. The largest nuclear weapon ever exploded was only 58 MT.

A 100 MT bomb would (and did I suppose since Supes didn't stop it) have catastrophic effects on all the beachfront Nevada property Lex bought.

I let a lot of these implausibilities slide because the movie never takes itself too seriously anyway, but that is a ridiculously high megaton count.

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 07:19 PM
From the Bronx. Coney Island is in Brooklyn.

My favorite part was near the beginning, where they showed each Warrior en route to the powwow dutifully pay his subway fare before boarding the system. I was a young teen when the movie came out, and I remember hearing (false, I assume) rumors of stabbings and such occurring in theatres where the movie played. I was surprised when I finally saw it and how silly it all was.

Actually, the gang meeting was in Central Park in Manhattan.

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 07:28 PM
A "governmental body (that) investigates space-related mishaps" assumes facts not in evidence.

If you assume the Marines represent some government, I'll be glad to grant that while noting that W-Y still sent a company representative who had a form of operational control.

I think it's easier to swallow the events of the movie if you assume that W-Y is a major power in this civilization, at least as influential than any single government, and that they are still wanting the alien for their weapons division. For whatever reason they still couldn't brazenly march in and get the alien, but why not spend $ on a "multi-million dollar facility", knowing that you can then "discover" the alien by accident and con the government (if it exists) into providing a troop of marines for support?

If there's no governmental body and they DO know that Ripley isn't lying about the events aboard The Nostromo, why bother having a board meeting? Pay her off (or dispose of her) and then get back to the business of getting a Xenamorph for the "bio-weapons division."

If there's no concern that any entity outside of the (e.g. a governmental body) is in existence, then why bother with the niceties? And why use "Colonial Marines" instead of mercenaries or private military contractors unless there IS some form of functioning government?

Finally, there obviously IS a functioning government in the Aliens universe as Hicks plans on "nuking the site from orbit" after Ripley reminds him that he is now in command and that this was a military mission. If Burke was there in anything other than an advisory capacity, then he would have nixed that move ASAP.

Jack Batty
01-29-2014, 07:38 PM
Actually, the gang meeting was in Central Park in Manhattan.

I beg to differ. Both in the book and the movie the conclave was in the Bronx. It's spelled out fairly explicitly a couple of different times in the movie, from Rembrandt tracing the subway map all the way up, to Swan saying, "We ain't even been to the Bronx before."

Although, if I remember correctly, the scene was shot in Manhattan, but in Riverside Park (I could be wrong about that one).

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 07:44 PM
Because, for whatever reason, they were being paid to do so. It isn't played up much in the movies, but it seems Earth is not a very nice place anymore in the setting. It's apparently not a total crapsack--Ripley can at least find private lodging even with her low-end job--but enough people want to move away that they're establishing colonies. So, Weyland-Yutani got into the real estate business, terraforming other worlds for those people to move to. Finding valuable stuff on those worlds is a bonus.


This is a corporate culture that thinks nothing of sacrificing human lives on the off chance of increasing their profits. How much do you think they care about native life on any given rock they decide to set up shop on? The Marines' derisive "bug hunt" comments bear this out--clearly, it's a common practice to simply eliminate alien life forms that present a problem.

Between the fact that there was no native life on LV-426, the derelict's beacon being offline, and a cursory survey aimed mainly at picking a good place to set up the processing plant, it's not that surprising they thought it was completely lifeless. Even if it hadn't been, however, it's unlikely that W-Y would have cared.

Regardless of what W-Y thought of HUMAN life, it is clear that sentient life exists elsewhere in the galaxy. By not bothering to ascertain that it doesn't exist on a moon which you are terraforming, you risk the race destroying your (according to the film) 42 million dollar facility at best; and starting an interstellar conflict at worst.

Also, there's the pesky fact that another space-faring race might have a claim upon the moon and have placed something to signify that fact. Without performing a survey of the entire body (which also points out the fact that colonists didn't have a satellite or satellites and that in the Alien universe communications must be able to travel at speeds greater than light) then your terraforming could be for naught as the race with the claim would be a tad peeved to discover that you are trespassing on THIER moon.

Finally, without a survey of the entire body how would the company know that the terraforming would "take?" While W-Y doesn't seem to be the brightest company in film universe (after all, wouldn't simply sending a robotic ship have provided them with the life form which they were seeking without leaving any potential witnesses in the first film?) they do seem to be interested in maximizing their returns. Attempting to terraform a moon which may have issues elsewhere upon its surface which might interfere with your end goal seems to be a recipe for plenty of wasted capital.

Again, a football stadium-sized ship full alien life would have been detected during the survey that would have to be performed prior to any terraforming efforts. And since the film forget to show that the colonists had spaceships or even aircraft available (if they did then they could have flow away from the eventual facility blast), the ship also had to be in relatively close proximity to the terraforming station.

yep…plot hole.

nevadaexile
01-29-2014, 07:48 PM
I beg to differ. Both in the book and the movie the conclave was in the Bronx. It's spelled out fairly explicitly a couple of different times in the movie, from Rembrandt tracing the subway map all the way up, to Swan saying, "We ain't even been to the Bronx before."

Although, if I remember correctly, the scene was shot in Manhattan, but in Riverside Park (I could be wrong about that one).

I stand corrected.
It was in Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Warriors_(film)

Justin_Bailey
01-30-2014, 06:40 AM
The Dark Knight - The Joker blows up an entire police station, yet he and Lao were the only ones unharmed. Worse yet, The Joker was within the bomb's immediate blast radius. At the very least, he'd be knocked down by the shock wave.

Lau and The Joker were both in the secure wing, away from the bomb.

Roundabout
01-30-2014, 07:13 AM
Lau and The Joker were both in the secure wing, away from the bomb.

The first part of your sentence is true. The second is where the problem emerges, as in both rooms (one with Lao, one with The Joker) all other people inside were either killed or knocked out. So they had to be within a close proximity to the bomb.

Justin_Bailey
01-30-2014, 07:17 AM
The first part of your sentence is true. The second is where the problem emerges, as in both rooms (one with Lao, one with The Joker) all other people inside were either killed or knocked out. So they had to be within a close proximity to the bomb.

Lau was alone.
The Joker killed the cop that was in the interrogation room with him.

pravnik
01-30-2014, 07:18 AM
From the Bronx. Coney Island is in Brooklyn.:smack: I knew that, believe it or not. I even knew that Cyrus's meeting was specifically in Van Cortland park, so I'm not sure why I typed that.

Roundabout
01-30-2014, 07:45 AM
Lau was alone.
The Joker killed the cop that was in the interrogation room with him.

I think you may need to rewatch the scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_gawHgA0-k&list=WLBNOaZ6rpkDlWUeBPMp0NtFqKqT7mDvzB

From 1:05 - 1:50, you can clearly see that The Joker was surrounded by 3-4 cops. All farther away from the explosion than he, yet he's the only one unaffected.

From 3:07 - 3:15, you can see that Lao was not alone. There was a dead cop in the clearly devastated room he was held in. The Joker even tugs at his badge.

Mithras
01-30-2014, 07:50 AM
Regardless of what W-Y thought of HUMAN life, it is clear that sentient life exists elsewhere in the galaxy.

While we know that's true because we saw the ship in the first movie, does the company know it? My impression was that the explored galaxy in those movies was mostly lifeless and humans hadn't encountered much in the way of complex life and nothing that was sentient.

Again, a football stadium-sized ship full alien life would have been detected during the survey that would have to be performed prior to any terraforming efforts. And since the film forget to show that the colonists had spaceships or even aircraft available (if they did then they could have flow away from the eventual facility blast), the ship also had to be in relatively close proximity to the terraforming station.

I don't see why it must be the case that the ship would have been detected. I can imagine several ways of surveying a cloud-covered planet to be sure it's suitable for terraforming that don't involve taking detailed photographs of every inch of its surface. On that note, it was hard for the marine pilot to find where she was intending to land at the colony even though she knew exactly what she was looking for and where. Based on that, I'd say that the technology to easily find the ship didn't exist.

JohnT
01-30-2014, 08:49 AM
And all this assumption about the surveying efforts of W-Y are irrelevant if you merely assume that the colony was put down as bait. Expensive bait, but yes: bait.

Robot Arm
01-30-2014, 08:51 AM
Near the end of Silver Streak, the FBI finally catches George (Gene Wilder) and the agent in charge asks him about Devereau's plans. Then he makes plans to stop the train, invites George along, and gives him a gun and ammunition. I'm pretty sure the real FBI isn't in the habit of arming book publishers and bringing them along when they go to arrest someone.

Dale Sams
01-30-2014, 08:59 AM
Victory

1) They tie.

2) Putting aside that these are POW's who would have very little stamina, the idea of a 47-year old Michael Caine going the full 90 is larffable.

One thing that is very realistic....Stallone looks and plays EXACTLY like a 5'6" American who's never played goalkeeper.

Son of a Rich
01-30-2014, 09:38 AM
Near the end of Silver Streak, the FBI finally catches George (Gene Wilder) and the agent in charge asks him about Devereau's plans. Then he makes plans to stop the train, invites George along, and gives him a gun and ammunition. I'm pretty sure the real FBI isn't in the habit of arming book publishers and bringing them along when they go to arrest someone.

That was the legal precedent for giving Harry a gun and bulletproof vest in Dumb & Dumber.

nevadaexile
01-30-2014, 09:41 AM
And all this assumption about the surveying efforts of W-Y are irrelevant if you merely assume that the colony was put down as bait. Expensive bait, but yes: bait.

Since the colonists possessed neither spaceships nor aircraft what would have been the odds of placing the terraforming facility within close proximity of the alien ship? Throw a quarter out of an airplane over Brazil and then find that quarter.

Not going to happen.

W-Y obviously had to survey the moon to see if it would even work. If they are that incompetent, then that makes the Alien universe even more sad and inept than it already appears to be ("Let's fly light years away and throw a terraforming station on any old moon.")

Sorry…it's a plot hole.

Like the one where everybody goes down to the planet and no one is left on board the Sulaco. Or when Ripley basically tells them that they don't need her to go and then Gorman reiterates that statement when he tells his people that her entire briefing is on tape for them to study.

Or when their first plan isn't to bring down the drop ship when the other one crashes. Or when the only radio antenna for terraforming station's complex isn't on the command center. Or how NONE of the colonists thought to flee the station when it was clear that the Xenomorphs were taking over. Or how Ripley seems to have forgotten that she was surprised by Alien in the first film and then gets "surprised" again in the second one.

It was a good film in 1986 when it came out. However, when you look at it for more than a few seconds you realize that everyone would have to be a idiot for the plot to succeed

Dendarii Dame
01-30-2014, 10:16 AM
Here's one my young son came up with: I was reading him Stanley--Flat Again!, a sequel to Flat Stanley, in which the hero is flattened to paper thickness by a bulletin board that falls on him in his bed, but not otherwise harmed. He's eventually restored with a bicycle pump. In Stanley--Flat Again! the bulletin board once more squashes Stanley.

My son's reaction: "Why did they still have the bulletin board up in his room?"

Son of a Rich
01-30-2014, 10:23 AM
In Dumb & Dumber, why would Mary be so happy that Lloyd returned the briefcase? The money therein was supposed to ransom her kidnapped husband.

cormac262
01-30-2014, 10:36 AM
Nah, Gilligan's Island takes place in what I call "The Wacky Hijinks Universe", where the repeated use of supernatural power (My Favorite Martian, Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie) has weakened the fabric of reality so that while almost any impossibly absurd thing can happen (The Beverly Hillbillies, Green Acres, Petticoat Junction), in balance anything really seriously wrong or evil almost never happens.

This. Especially "Petticoat Junction". Three hot babe daughters working at the only hotel at the stop of the major transportation route (utilized by all the travelling salesmen of the day), and not one of them gets knocked up !
(Uncle Joe wasn't just a good-for-nothing after all !)

Dale Sams
01-30-2014, 11:40 AM
In the ST: TNG episode Cause and Effect, the crew realizes they are stuck in a time loop. Someone suggests reversing course to avoid the impending collision, and the idea is shot down because, "For all we know, reversing course leads to the accident"....

uhm...no. You had no reason to reverse course the first time it happened, therefore the accident isn't behind you.

Gagundathar
01-30-2014, 11:45 AM
This. Especially "Petticoat Junction". Three hot babe daughters working at the only hotel at the stop of the major transportation route (utilized by all the travelling salesmen of the day), and not one of them gets knocked up !
(Uncle Joe wasn't just a good-for-nothing after all !)

It has been well-established by several rabid fans with much too much time of their collective hands, that the Shady Rest was, in fact, a brothel, and the girls are 'managed' by Uncle Joe.
:D

nevadaexile
01-30-2014, 11:46 AM
In the ST: TNG episode Cause and Effect, the crew realizes they are stuck in a time loop. Someone suggests reversing course to avoid the impending collision, and the idea is shot down because, "For all we know, reversing course leads to the accident"....

uhm...no. You had no reason to reverse course the first time it happened, therefore the accident isn't behind you.

That's very true.

Also, they could have used both Riker's plan (decompressing the shuttle bay) and Data's plan (using the tractor beam) at the same time. The combination of the two would have also avoided the incident.,

Justin_Bailey
01-30-2014, 12:31 PM
I think you may need to rewatch the scene.

You're right, I thought The Joker was still in the interrogation room when the bomb went off. He wasn't, BUT...

he was the only one who knew the blast was coming so he got the hell down before the blast hit.

Plot hole averted!

cormac262
01-30-2014, 01:15 PM
It has been well-established by several rabid fans with much too much time of their collective hands, that the Shady Rest was, in fact, a brothel, and the girls are 'managed' by Uncle Joe.
:D

So the actual use of petticoats was just a ruse to throw off the vice squad ? ;-)

enalzi
01-30-2014, 01:41 PM
You're right, I thought The Joker was still in the interrogation room when the bomb went off. He wasn't, BUT...

he was the only one who knew the blast was coming so he got the hell down before the blast hit.

Plot hole averted!

Yeah, I don't think the blast killed anybody except for the cops treating the guy with the bomb inside him. But it was enough to knock everyone down long enough for the Joker to get out. There were obviously other baddies in play, since someone drives the Joker out of there in the police car.

silenus
01-30-2014, 01:44 PM
Advertising. If the petticoats were on the water tower, they were open for business. Notice how, when the train whistles that it has customers aboard, the girls grab the petticoats and head to work.

Roundabout
01-30-2014, 01:48 PM
You're right, I thought The Joker was still in the interrogation room when the bomb went off. He wasn't, BUT...

he was the only one who knew the blast was coming so he got the hell down before the blast hit.

Plot hole averted!

His head still got caught in the gust of wind from the explosion. Being much closer to the window than the other cops, he should've been knocked out just as they were, if not worse.

Miller
01-30-2014, 02:02 PM
Since the colonists possessed neither spaceships nor aircraft what would have been the odds of placing the terraforming facility within close proximity of the alien ship? Throw a quarter out of an airplane over Brazil and then find that quarter.

Which is avoided in the theory that the head office deliberately placed the colonists in harm's way by situating the colony near the downed space ship.

Like the one where everybody goes down to the planet and no one is left on board the Sulaco. Or when Ripley basically tells them that they don't need her to go and then Gorman reiterates that statement when he tells his people that her entire briefing is on tape for them to study.

I don't see how either of these are plot holes.

Or when their first plan isn't to bring down the drop ship when the other one crashes.

Isn't that their first plan? What other plan do they try first?

Or when the only radio antenna for terraforming station's complex isn't on the command center.

Why would it be?

Or how NONE of the colonists thought to flee the station when it was clear that the Xenomorphs were taking over.

Flee where?

Or how Ripley seems to have forgotten that she was surprised by Alien in the first film and then gets "surprised" again in the second one.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, here.

It was a good film in 1986 when it came out. However, when you look at it for more than a few seconds you realize that everyone would have to be a idiot for the plot to succeed

I don't think you've made a good case for that conclusion.

terentii
01-30-2014, 02:51 PM
Advertising. If the petticoats were on the water tower, they were open for business. Notice how, when the train whistles that it has customers aboard, the girls grab the petticoats and head to work.

Come ride the little train that is rollin' down the tracks to the Junction.
Forget about your cares, it is time to relax at the Junction.
Lotsa curves, you bet, 'n' even more when you get to the Junction.

(Petticoat Junction!)

There's a little hotel called the Shady Rest at the Junction.
It is run by Kate, come and be her guest at the Junction.
And that's Uncle Joe, he's a-movin' kinda slow at the Junction.

(Petticoat Junction!)

My God, how much more obvious could it be?!? :smack:

If I ever open a brothel, I'll be sure to call it "Petticoat Junction." What a great name!

terentii
01-30-2014, 03:11 PM
My God, how much more obvious could it be?!? :smack:

And in the final season:

There's a little hotel called the Shady Rest at the Junction.
It is run by Joe, come and be his guest at the Junction.
Here's a lady MD, she's as pretty as can be at the Junction.

OMG! :eek:

cormac262
01-30-2014, 03:11 PM
Come ride the little train that is rollin' down the tracks to the Junction.
Forget about your cares, it is time to relax at the Junction.
Lotsa curves, you bet, 'n' even more when you get to the Junction.

(Petticoat Junction!)

There's a little hotel called the Shady Rest at the Junction.
It is run by Kate, come and be her guest at the Junction.
And that's Uncle Joe, he's a-movin' kinda slow at the Junction.

(Petticoat Junction!)

My God, how much more obvious could it be?!? :smack:

If I ever open a brothel, I'll be sure to call it "Petticoat Junction." What a great name!

Come on. Next you're going to tell me that Mr. Drucker had set up a "barter" system with Kate, so the Shady Rest didn't have to pay (cash) for their supplies.....

ftg
01-30-2014, 03:22 PM
(My God, how much more obvious could it be?!? :smack:

If I ever open a brothel, I'll be sure to call it "Petticoat Junction." What a great name!

Customer: I'd like a "date" with Bobbie Jo.
Uncle Joe: Sure, she's right over there.
Customer: Um, that's not the same Bobbie Jo that was here last time.
Uncle Joe: Well, this time that one's Bobbie Jo. We've had 3 Billie Jo's as well. Girls come and go. It's easier for me to just give 'em the same names.

terentii
01-30-2014, 05:00 PM
Come on. Next you're going to tell me that Mr. Drucker had set up a "barter" system with Kate, so the Shady Rest didn't have to pay (cash) for their supplies.....

Did you ever see Kate or "Uncle" Joe pay cash for anything? :dubious:

Push You Down
01-30-2014, 05:05 PM
From the Bronx. Coney Island is in Brooklyn.

My favorite part was near the beginning, where they showed each Warrior en route to the powwow dutifully pay his subway fare before boarding the system. I was a young teen when the movie came out, and I remember hearing (false, I assume) rumors of stabbings and such occurring in theatres where the movie played. I was surprised when I finally saw it and how silly it all was.

Was it the Warriors paying their fares? One of gangs had a member depositing tokens in the turnstiles for their crew, but I remember it being one of the other gangs.
--just checked. It's the Punks (I think that's their name) the stripe shirt gang they fight in the bathroom.

Jack Batty
01-30-2014, 05:42 PM
There's a deleted scene (available on the director's cut video, and somewhere on the web, I'm sure) where Cleon essentially introduces the nine delegates. One of them -- I want to say Vermin -- is the "money man."

Actually, found it on YouTube, "Vermin, you're the bearer ... you carry the tokens and the bread."
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV1M1X1M42o&oq=warriors%20deleted&gs_l=youtube..0.5j0j0i5l4.131.2183.0.3393.14.14.0.0.0.0.170.1482.8j6.14.0.eytns%2Cpt%3D-30%2Cn%3D2%2Cui%3Dtr.1.0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.PGzvrW8Qpeg)

ExTank
01-30-2014, 05:48 PM
I don't think you've made a good case for that conclusion.

Agreed; kinda like my SW gripe, there's a lot about the Alien's universe (the structure of Earth's government[s], their relationships with corporations like W-Y, what advances in sciences like planetology might make LV-426 prime real estate, etc) that we don't know that might very well make certain "plot holes" non-issues.

It's been a long time since I read the novel, but IIRC, either Dallas, Kane, or Lambert turned off the alien ship's distress beacon. So there's no signal to warn potential colonists or other ships. But this is not supported on-screen, so did no one else ever pick up the alien ship's distress signal?

Let's assume that, after the Nostromo was declared overdue, then missing, that the original Nostromo conspirators at W-Y wiped the computers to cover their back trail and wrote off the "Xenomorph Project" as too dangerous. They retire, then maybe die of old age, etc.

In the mean time, the original LV-426 crash site is partially buried under a rock slide (supported by the extended edition/director's cut), and missed on the planetary survey before the terraforming colony is established. It's feasible the rock slide damaged the alien ship's transmitter, and, since we don't know when that rock slide occured, it's feasible that the planetary survey didn't see the ship and/or pick up the alien ship's distress/warning signal

Ripley shows up 5 decades later, with an incredible story. No one wants to believe her. After all, there's no real evidence to back her up, and no one on LV-426 has seen a single hint of what she's obviously raving about. But Burke, being the slimy weasel that he is, decides it's worth a look. Instead of asking for/sending a fully equipped and trained Xeno-contact team, he sends a routine memo to have someone on LV-426 check out a set of coordinates.

Hilarity ensues.

The real problem is this: did no one on LV-426 send out a distress call when things started going pear-shaped? (After Newt's dad came back with a face-hugger, torso's started getting all 'splodey, nasty xeno's are running around snatching people up, etc).

If they did, is it feasible/plausible that Burke managed to quash that communique when it came into W-Y's communication's center? Did he pay off the duty techs in the Comm Center to ignore what they saw heard? Did they even see the message? Or did they just see the recipient's name (Burke) and forward it without reading it? Would scared/panicked colonists send the message just to Burke's attention, or do a "Send To ALL" distress message?

Or did things go so bad so quick that no one on LV-426 got a message out at all? I would find this difficult to believe.

The human portion of the Alien-verse does seem to be a partially dystopian, corporate-ruled-crap-sack, where corporate weasels are always trying to do stuff on the cheap, like sending "crew expendable" space-truckers to make first contact with a potentially hostile species. Or making military transports partially automated to cut down on crew costs/overhead.

AppallingGael
01-30-2014, 07:18 PM
Was it the Warriors paying their fares? One of gangs had a member depositing tokens in the turnstiles for their crew, but I remember it being one of the other gangs.
--just checked. It's the Punks (I think that's their name) the stripe shirt gang they fight in the bathroom.

Wow. I've been defending the Warriors all these years as tough but noble of spirit, and now I learn they were a lousy bunch of fare-beaters.

Accidental Martyr
01-30-2014, 09:31 PM
From the Bronx. Coney Island is in Brooklyn.

My favorite part was near the beginning, where they showed each Warrior en route to the powwow dutifully pay his subway fare before boarding the system. I was a young teen when the movie came out, and I remember hearing (false, I assume) rumors of stabbings and such occurring in theatres where the movie played. I was surprised when I finally saw it and how silly it all was.

1979 People Magazine article about violence that was associated with the film.
I found some of the dated language used in the article to be interesting.
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20073115,00.html?v=desktop

CaptMurdock
01-31-2014, 01:51 AM
Remmington Steele. Nobody will use a female private investigator, so she invents a male name to use and then subs for him. A guy walks in claiming to be Remmington Steele, and she works with him, despite knowing nothing about who he really is.

You're a private eye, lady. Can't you find out who this joker is??? I wouldn't hire you either if you couldn't.


The guy didn't intend to assume Remington Steele's identity; it just happened through a plot convenience. Laura, the female P.I. was assigned to guard some jewels, he was out to steal them. He also had some other bad guys on his back, so he needed a way to hide out from them, and once he figured out there was no RS...
She was rather attracted to him (and he to her) from the moment they met. Through several seasons we see them growing slowly closer (despite maintaining their "it's just business" facade) so having him around is definitely desirable to her. Plus, he makes a nice figurehead to trot out to prospective clients, even if he can't keep his mouth shut. And he even becomes a better investigator as time goes on.
After a few seasons, RS confesses that he really doesn't know who he really is. Tracing his actual background is complicated by the elaborate facades and false identities he had created in his shady past.


End of ROTJ:

Luke: "Oh, look! It's the two assholes who didn't tell me about Force Lightning!"
You'd think that might have been mentioned in the "Jedi for Dummies" book Luke read in Kenobi's hut between ESB and ROTJ. :smack:


The colonists REALLY should have found the Xenomorphs prior to Burke letting them know that they were there. They also should have been smart enough 58 years into the future to be able to handle them without killing off everyone at the complex.

My question is: who in the blue hell assigned an inexperienced dickhead like Gorman to that mission? I mean, somebody was taking it seriously enough to send a whole platoon, armed to the teeth, to rescue the colonists -- didn't they think to assign a lieutenant who had more than a dozen practice drops under his belt?

And before they went traipsing off to explore in the fusion-powered terraforming tower, don't you think somebody (Gorman, Apone, Ripley) would have sat Burke down and said "Tell me everything you know about that place, what's it do, what's it made of, what can we expect in there..." Basically, the Marines should have known before they went in there that it was not a place to bring armor-piercing ammo.

Which brings me to my next point: the Marines should have had a different type of ammunition available, something that would not have shredded the cooling system of the reactor. The equivalent of Glaser safety slugs, basically.

Lobohan
01-31-2014, 03:11 AM
Since the colonists possessed neither spaceships nor aircraft what would have been the odds of placing the terraforming facility within close proximity of the alien ship? Throw a quarter out of an airplane over Brazil and then find that quarter.It wasn't that close. The colonists traveled to it at Berk's request. But even then, sometimes coincidences happen.

I'm more than happy to assume that either it was coincidence, or the crash site was a hospitable place to land, and the terraformers chose a nearby site for similar reasons.

Not going to happen.

W-Y obviously had to survey the moon to see if it would even work. If they are that incompetent, then that makes the Alien universe even more sad and inept than it already appears to be ("Let's fly light years away and throw a terraforming station on any old moon.")

Sorry…it's a plot hole.The survey could easily miss a single ship. I would assume that a typical terraforming survey wouldn't involve searching every square inch of a planet. Especially a corporate job where costs are paramount.

Like the one where everybody goes down to the planet and no one is left on board the Sulaco. Again, they are trying to be as cheap as possible.

Or when Ripley basically tells them that they don't need her to go and then Gorman reiterates that statement when he tells his people that her entire briefing is on tape for them to study.Can you ask a taped interview a question?

Or when their first plan isn't to bring down the drop ship when the other one crashes.That is their plan. :confused:

Or when the only radio antenna for terraforming station's complex isn't on the command center.It's hardly weird to put a large satellite dish away from a building.

Or how NONE of the colonists thought to flee the station when it was clear that the Xenomorphs were taking over.I think trying to barricade yourself in somewhere is as reasonable as fleeing in unarmored vehicles.

Or how Ripley seems to have forgotten that she was surprised by Alien in the first film and then gets "surprised" again in the second one.

It was a good film in 1986 when it came out. However, when you look at it for more than a few seconds you realize that everyone would have to be a idiot for the plot to succeedMore like, everyone would have to be human.

Lobohan
01-31-2014, 03:18 AM
I love The Warriors so I try very hard when I watch it not to think about the premise. "Every gang in NYC is looking for us, so we have to bop our way on foot and by subway all the way back from Brooklyn to Coney wearing our colors." God God, that's the last thing you should do! Steal a couple of cars! You're the delegates of a much larger gang, have the one guy with a shirt take his vest off, find a payphone, and make a collect call for someone to come pick you up! Get a flophouse hotel room! Run the opposite direction! Mug people for their shirts, split up, wait until the next day and go home individually! Anything!I think Swan wants to get home without losing face. They could get home by taking off their colors, but that's something a not-on-the-map gang like the Orphans would do.

Lumpy
01-31-2014, 08:40 AM
It's been a long time since I watched The Warriors, but do we see anyone at night who isn't a gang member or a cop? Any cabbies, any all-night convenience store clerks, any civvies at all? My take on The Warriors is that it's basically a fantasy world, where at night the mundane world goes into hibernation and the vampires and ghouls come out.

Dale Sams
01-31-2014, 08:56 AM
By the way....why did Obi-Wan and Yoda go into hiding? Either one of them should have been able to kick Vader's ass seven different ways with their eyes closed after Vader is stuck in his outfit.

After that, you go after the Emperor.

astorian
01-31-2014, 08:58 AM
It's been a long time since I watched The Warriors, but do we see anyone at night who isn't a gang member or a cop? Any cabbies, any all-night convenience store clerks, any civvies at all? My take on The Warriors is that it's basically a fantasy world, where at night the mundane world goes into hibernation and the vampires and ghouls come out.

More than that... notice that all the gangs are multiracial? No all-Chinese gangs, no all-Italian gangs, no all-Puerto Rican gangs, no all-black gangs. Every gang is a rainbow coalition!

Jack Batty
01-31-2014, 08:58 AM
It's been a long time since I watched The Warriors, but do we see anyone at night who isn't a gang member or a cop? Any cabbies, any all-night convenience store clerks, any civvies at all? My take on The Warriors is that it's basically a fantasy world, where at night the mundane world goes into hibernation and the vampires and ghouls come out.

There are a few. Off the top of my head, there's the chick at the candy shop, where Luther throws a candy bar at her:

"Where's the money you owe?"
"For what?"

And then there's the prom-goers on the subway toward the end of the film. And, if I'm not mistaken, there are a few random people on some of the subway platforms when they're running from various gangs and/or cops.

But you're essentially on the mark. The director (Walter Hill) has stated that it was basically a comic-book film.

nevadaexile
01-31-2014, 09:32 AM
It wasn't that close. The colonists traveled to it at Berk's request. But even then, sometimes coincidences happen.

I'm more than happy to assume that either it was coincidence, or the crash site was a hospitable place to land, and the terraformers chose a nearby site for similar reasons.

The survey could easily miss a single ship. I would assume that a typical terraforming survey wouldn't involve searching every square inch of a planet. Especially a corporate job where costs are paramount.

Again, they are trying to be as cheap as possible.

Can you ask a taped interview a question?

That is their plan. :confused:

It's hardly weird to put a large satellite dish away from a building.

I think trying to barricade yourself in somewhere is as reasonable as fleeing in unarmored vehicles.

More like, everyone would have to be human.

I'll just hit the salient points:


It's a moon, not a planet. Therefore its surface area is far smaller than a planet making it easier to survey. And that would have to be done by satellite, not by a spacecraft, unless they planned on a survey taking years. Also the gravity would be lower than Earth-normal because of its smaller size.
Again…the colonists had no aircraft or spaceships. To get anywhere in a wheeled vehicle (even on a small moon) would take hours or days. The site obviously had to be close or they would have missed it. Or the story would have unfolded over the span of a t least a year, rather than the several months or so that it did.
The satellite dish wasn't that large. And why would there only be ONE? Is redundancy no longer a valid concept in the future?
The alien ship (actually the Space Jockey/Engineer's ship) is shown to be the size of a football arena. Hardly small. And it's in the open. It's not hidden.
You hardly be "saving money" if you attempt to terraform a moon with a supervolcano on it or a large mass of a naturally occurring, but unstable element. How would you find that out? Oh wait..you'd SURVEY THE ENTIRE MOON TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WASN"T ANYTHING LIKE THAT THERE.


You may be easily entertained, but some of us expect them to work a little harder. I enjoyed the film the first time I saw it. But watching it again and using my brain, it really is a plot hole filled mess.

Justin_Bailey
01-31-2014, 09:42 AM
By the way....why did Obi-Wan and Yoda go into hiding? Either one of them should have been able to kick Vader's ass seven different ways with their eyes closed after Vader is stuck in his outfit.

They didn't go into hiding, the went into exile. Yoda and Obi-Wan thought they were the only two Jedi left in existence. Yoda went to sulk and be miserable for failing the galaxy and Obi-Wan went to Tatooine to protect Luke.

Also remember that Yoda tried to take on the Emperor and got his ass kicked. And that was before the Emperor had built up a bunch of protections around him (which is what happens in the direct aftermath of Episode III). It took the might of an organized rebellion (and another Jedi or two) to topple them.

nevadaexile
01-31-2014, 09:44 AM
Agreed; kinda like my SW gripe, there's a lot about the Alien's universe (the structure of Earth's government[s], their relationships with corporations like W-Y, what advances in sciences like planetology might make LV-426 prime real estate, etc) that we don't know that might very well make certain "plot holes" non-issues.

It's been a long time since I read the novel, but IIRC, either Dallas, Kane, or Lambert turned off the alien ship's distress beacon. So there's no signal to warn potential colonists or other ships. But this is not supported on-screen, so did no one else ever pick up the alien ship's distress signal?

Let's assume that, after the Nostromo was declared overdue, then missing, that the original Nostromo conspirators at W-Y wiped the computers to cover their back trail and wrote off the "Xenomorph Project" as too dangerous. They retire, then maybe die of old age, etc.

In the mean time, the original LV-426 crash site is partially buried under a rock slide (supported by the extended edition/director's cut), and missed on the planetary survey before the terraforming colony is established. It's feasible the rock slide damaged the alien ship's transmitter, and, since we don't know when that rock slide occured, it's feasible that the planetary survey didn't see the ship and/or pick up the alien ship's distress/warning signal

Ripley shows up 5 decades later, with an incredible story. No one wants to believe her. After all, there's no real evidence to back her up, and no one on LV-426 has seen a single hint of what she's obviously raving about. But Burke, being the slimy weasel that he is, decides it's worth a look. Instead of asking for/sending a fully equipped and trained Xeno-contact team, he sends a routine memo to have someone on LV-426 check out a set of coordinates.

Hilarity ensues.

The real problem is this: did no one on LV-426 send out a distress call when things started going pear-shaped? (After Newt's dad came back with a face-hugger, torso's started getting all 'splodey, nasty xeno's are running around snatching people up, etc).

If they did, is it feasible/plausible that Burke managed to quash that communique when it came into W-Y's communication's center? Did he pay off the duty techs in the Comm Center to ignore what they saw heard? Did they even see the message? Or did they just see the recipient's name (Burke) and forward it without reading it? Would scared/panicked colonists send the message just to Burke's attention, or do a "Send To ALL" distress message?

Or did things go so bad so quick that no one on LV-426 got a message out at all? I would find this difficult to believe.

The human portion of the Alien-verse does seem to be a partially dystopian, corporate-ruled-crap-sack, where corporate weasels are always trying to do stuff on the cheap, like sending "crew expendable" space-truckers to make first contact with a potentially hostile species. Or making military transports partially automated to cut down on crew costs/overhead.

I didn't mention the alien beacon as it is irrelevant. The size of the vessel would make it visible to anyone doing an aerial or an orbital survey. Again, it's illogical to believe that they don't do a detailed enough survey to determine that there isn't a subterranean ocean or huge pockets of methane which might spoil their "terraforming party."

Or that they would have attempted to ascertain if there was LIFE on the moon. Even if the future of Alien is dystopian, genocide would still have to be seen as being a "bad thing." if not, then why would have that pesky problem of Earth overpopulation?

I have watched the film maybe a dozen times (I own it on DVD and I like Bill Paxton's over the top performance) . Each time that I do watch I come away with a new complaint (like when Ripley tells them that they don't need her to go and Gorman reiterates that fact on board the Sulaco when they arrive).

It's a film that manages to disguises the myriad failures of its own internal logic with lots of action and Newt's ear-piercing screams. Sometimes that works; sometimes it doesn't.

CaptMurdock
01-31-2014, 10:00 AM
I didn't mention the alien beacon as it is irrelevant. The size of the vessel would make it visible to anyone doing an aerial or an orbital survey. Again, it's illogical to believe that they don't do a detailed enough survey to determine that there isn't a subterranean ocean or huge pockets of methane which might spoil their "terraforming party."


Playing Devil's Advocate here... Not sure on that one. As depicted in the first film, LV-426 was a hellhole with an atmosphere that was the next thing to opaque. Dust blowing everywhich way. The Nostromo's sensors had a hard time just finding a place to land. Now, an aerial survey might have better sensors (especially made decades after the Nostromo) but it could have missed the alien vessel. I doubt they were looking all that hard for something like that.

Son of a Rich
01-31-2014, 10:01 AM
Speaking of Alien, how much time elapsed between the chest pop incident and the killing in the chains-hanging-down room? What did the alien eat in the meantime?

Steve MB
01-31-2014, 10:15 AM
Or that they would have attempted to ascertain if there was LIFE on the moon. Even if the future of Alien is dystopian, genocide would still have to be seen as being a "bad thing." if not, then why would have that pesky problem of Earth overpopulation?

Huh? Plenty of societies in the real world have distinguished between killing Us Folks (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/443/why-are-there-so-many-names-for-germany-aka-deutschland-allemagne-etc) and killing Those Frog-Faced Heathens (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/443/why-are-there-so-many-names-for-germany-aka-deutschland-allemagne-etc).

nevadaexile
01-31-2014, 10:20 AM
Speaking of Alien, how much time elapsed between the chest pop incident and the killing in the chains-hanging-down room? What did the alien eat in the meantime?

Yet another Alien universe Unaddressed Issue: What do Xenomorphs actually eat?

Steve MB
01-31-2014, 10:25 AM
You hardly be "saving money" if you attempt to terraform a moon with a supervolcano on it or a large mass of a naturally occurring, but unstable element. How would you find that out? Oh wait..you'd SURVEY THE ENTIRE MOON TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WASN"T ANYTHING LIKE THAT THERE.

Sure you'd save money, if something like that went wrong X% of the time, a thorough survey costs Y% of the losses you take when something does go wrong, and X < Y. Yeah, people get killed now and then, but greedy amoral corp executives of the type we see in this universe would just mutter something about eggs and omelets.

nevadaexile
01-31-2014, 10:28 AM
Sure you'd save money, if something like that went wrong X% of the time, a thorough survey costs Y% of the losses you take when something does go wrong, and X < Y. Yeah, people get killed now and then, but greedy amoral corp executives of the type we see in this universe would just mutter something about eggs and omelets.

The "not killing people" part wouldn't be the issue.
Losing your terraforming equipment due to a massive explosion WOULD be.
And everyone only wants to undertake projects that have high probabilities of success.

Steve MB
01-31-2014, 10:37 AM
The "not killing people" part wouldn't be the issue.
Losing your terraforming equipment due to a massive explosion WOULD be.
And everyone only wants to undertake projects that have high probabilities of success.

There is a high probability of success. As long as the occasional failure costs less (in expected value, probability of loss times amount of loss) than proper surveying (lower cost per world, but has to be incurred 100% of the time), a greedy shortsighted megacorp is going to take the gamble because it's cheaper in the long run.

RickJay
01-31-2014, 10:40 AM
By the way....why did Obi-Wan and Yoda go into hiding? Either one of them should have been able to kick Vader's ass seven different ways with their eyes closed after Vader is stuck in his outfit.

After that, you go after the Emperor.
They went into hiding in "Revenge of the Sith." This is a thread about classic movies, not really stupid ones. :)

In "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back," conversely, it's not at all clear Obi-Wan is more powerful than Vader, and there is nothing to suggest Yoda is in hiding at all. Yoda isn't presented as a hiding ex-Jedi politician; he is a Zen master who lives on Dagobah because that's where great Zen masters live, in isolation. He is uninterested in such mundane things light saber duels; "Wars not make one great." He may well have been there for centuries, training Jedi sent to him from time to time. The prequels totally alter his character.

Seriously, there are more plot holes than coherent plot in the prequels. You could fill a 500-post thread with glaring plot holes from those films.

Justin_Bailey
01-31-2014, 10:54 AM
In "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back," conversely, it's not at all clear Obi-Wan is more powerful than Vader, and there is nothing to suggest Yoda is in hiding at all. Yoda isn't presented as a hiding ex-Jedi politician; he is a Zen master who lives on Dagobah because that's where great Zen masters live, in isolation. He is uninterested in such mundane things light saber duels; "Wars not make one great." He may well have been there for centuries, training Jedi sent to him from time to time. The prequels totally alter his character.

But there's nothing to suggest he's not in hiding either. The prequels cause a lot of problems and create a lot of holes. This isn't one of them.

Miller
01-31-2014, 10:57 AM
I didn't mention the alien beacon as it is irrelevant. The size of the vessel would make it visible to anyone doing an aerial or an orbital survey. Again, it's illogical to believe that they don't do a detailed enough survey to determine that there isn't a subterranean ocean or huge pockets of methane which might spoil their "terraforming party."

A survey detailed enough to pick up things like that could still easily miss something as small as the alien space ship. Planets, even moons, are fucking big. Picking up something the size of a football field during a survey wold be extraordinarily unlikely, unless you knew where to look for it.

Or that they would have attempted to ascertain if there was LIFE on the moon. Even if the future of Alien is dystopian, genocide would still have to be seen as being a "bad thing." if not, then why would have that pesky problem of Earth overpopulation?

I don't think they've ever encountered intelligent aliens in this universe. There's no indication of it in any of the movies - the line about Acturians not withstanding. And I don't have a problem believing that a megacorp like W-Y doesn't give a shit about harming non-sentient indigenous life.

I have watched the film maybe a dozen times (I own it on DVD and I like Bill Paxton's over the top performance) . Each time that I do watch I come away with a new complaint (like when Ripley tells them that they don't need her to go and Gorman reiterates that fact on board the Sulaco when they arrive).

How is that a plot hole?

Miller
01-31-2014, 10:58 AM
But there's nothing to suggest he's not in hiding either. The prequels cause a lot of problems and create a lot of holes. This isn't one of them.

My impression when I first saw the film was that Yoda was in hiding. IIRC, this was the view adopted by EU stuff even before the prequel trilogy.

aruvqan
01-31-2014, 11:50 AM
Or how NONE of the colonists thought to flee the station when it was clear that the Xenomorphs were taking over.
Flee where?

.
One might think they have shuttles to go up to a small space station that was originally used for weather observation and or communication, or asteroid mining [for ice to turn into water and environment] or to go up to a freighter that is too large/fragile to land.

In SF small space stations are frequently placed above new colony planets/mining planets to serve as 'head offices', warehouses [huge null-G storage spaces that don't need to be all that sturdy structurally speaking, that allow freighters to drop off/pick up cargo without needing to land] or to serve as weather observation/control units. If I were 'world building' I would probably have a station to serve as a construction base/warehouse for equipment/freighter drop off/pick up and general office. There would probably be a small fleet of 4 or 5 cargo shuttles and one VIP/passenger shuttle. I would pre-stage all my construction units up in space and drop supplies and equipment down as needed, and when everything was finished, change to a commercial station where the colony would ship mined and finished ingots of product up for storage and transshipping, and freighters would drop off supplies for transshipping down. I would imagine there would be a fairly great savings in fuel to not have to haul stuff up and down a gravity well.

Lobohan
01-31-2014, 11:58 AM
I'll just hit the salient points:

It's a moon, not a planet. Therefore its surface area is far smaller than a planet making it easier to survey. And that would have to be done by satellite, not by a spacecraft, unless they planned on a survey taking years. Also the gravity would be lower than Earth-normal because of its smaller size.Nonsense. Where did you read that a moon can't be the size of Earth?

Moon is a description of what a body is orbiting, not how large it is. And even if it were smaller, it might have a higher ratio of heavy metals composing it.

And as for the survey, think about what they are doing. They aren't looking for a crashed alien spacecraft. They are looking for indigenous life. You don't have to do that by examining every square foot of the planet. You probably test its atmosphere, take samples of the water, and do overall assessments of the terrain. Not have some AI waste its time by going, "Nope. No crashed alien craft in this 10m X 10m square..."


Again…the colonists had no aircraft or spaceships. To get anywhere in a wheeled vehicle (even on a small moon) would take hours or days. The site obviously had to be close or they would have missed it. Or the story would have unfolded over the span of a t least a year, rather than the several months or so that it did.Maybe it took hours or days. All we know is that it took less time to return than it takes for a Xenomorph to chest-burst from a face-hugged man.

The satellite dish wasn't that large. And why would there only be ONE? Is redundancy no longer a valid concept in the future?The hardware that controls the dish was damaged. There could easily have been other transmitters, but the one Bishop went to was the closest.

That said, maybe the technology for a faster than light radio is fucking expensive, and a corner-cutting corporate site is worried about the bottom line.

The alien ship (actually the Space Jockey/Engineer's ship) is shown to be the size of a football arena. Hardly small. And it's in the open. It's not hidden.It's the same color as the landscape. I don't think you appreciate how difficult it is to see stuff from orbit.

You hardly be "saving money" if you attempt to terraform a moon with a supervolcano on it or a large mass of a naturally occurring, but unstable element. How would you find that out? Oh wait..you'd SURVEY THE ENTIRE MOON TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WASN"T ANYTHING LIKE THAT THERE.
You have a cartoonish idea of what surveying is. Surveying for geological properties doesn't involve looking at every square meter of the surface. It seems easy because you're handwaving the difficult parts. The planet was barren. It had a crashed alien spacecraft on it. Hardly something that they would think to look for. You could search ten thousand planets and find zero crashed alien spacecraft. So why the everloving fuck would you require that the survey be of the intensity to find one? Your terraforming business model isn't geared for profit. :D

You may be easily entertained, but some of us expect them to work a little harder. I enjoyed the film the first time I saw it. But watching it again and using my brain, it really is a plot hole filled mess.You're attempting to piss on a fantastic movie so you can appear above it. But in fact, your entire case is a result of you either not paying attention or just not understanding the concepts involved.

As for being easily entertained, well I do waste my time before work on silliness like this. :D

Lobohan
01-31-2014, 12:07 PM
The "not killing people" part wouldn't be the issue.
Losing your terraforming equipment due to a massive explosion WOULD be.
And everyone only wants to undertake projects that have high probabilities of success.To reiterate, if something will be a problem and some small percentage of the time will lead to a loss, you look at the cost of the loss, vs the solution and make a business decision.

Your not understanding how a business makes decisions doesn't make Aliens a bad film.

Dale Sams
01-31-2014, 12:24 PM
They didn't go into hiding, the went into exile. Yoda and Obi-Wan thought they were the only two Jedi left in existence. Yoda went to sulk and be miserable for failing the galaxy and Obi-Wan went to Tatooine to protect Luke.

Also remember that Yoda tried to take on the Emperor and got his ass kicked. And that was before the Emperor had built up a bunch of protections around him (which is what happens in the direct aftermath of Episode III). It took the might of an organized rebellion (and another Jedi or two) to topple them.

See...my reasoning was based on what I think is the best aspect of RotS. The entire Jedi Order (Or most) has been wiped out except for two guys...and those two guys by themselves very nearly succeed in stopping years of tyranny! That's how badass Jedis are. Yoda has no problem getting to the Emperor, in Part IV, Obi-Wan makes getting to the tractor beam look easy.

They've removed a major asset by turning Anakin into a cyborg. Try again guys!

nevadaexile
01-31-2014, 12:30 PM
Nonsense. Where did you read that a moon can't be the size of Earth?

Moon is a description of what a body is orbiting, not how large it is. And even if it were smaller, it might have a higher ratio of heavy metals composing it.

And as for the survey, think about what they are doing. They aren't looking for a crashed alien spacecraft. They are looking for indigenous life. You don't have to do that by examining every square foot of the planet. You probably test its atmosphere, take samples of the water, and do overall assessments of the terrain. Not have some AI waste its time by going, "Nope. No crashed alien craft in this 10m X 10m square..."


Maybe it took hours or days. All we know is that it took less time to return than it takes for a Xenomorph to chest-burst from a face-hugged man.

The hardware that controls the dish was damaged. There could easily have been other transmitters, but the one Bishop went to was the closest.

That said, maybe the technology for a faster than light radio is fucking expensive, and a corner-cutting corporate site is worried about the bottom line.

It's the same color as the landscape. I don't think you appreciate how difficult it is to see stuff from orbit.

You have a cartoonish idea of what surveying is. Surveying for geological properties doesn't involve looking at every square meter of the surface. It seems easy because you're handwaving the difficult parts. The planet was barren. It had a crashed alien spacecraft on it. Hardly something that they would think to look for. You could search ten thousand planets and find zero crashed alien spacecraft. So why the everloving fuck would you require that the survey be of the intensity to find one? Your terraforming business model isn't geared for profit. :D

You're attempting to piss on a fantastic movie so you can appear above it. But in fact, your entire case is a result of you either not paying attention or just not understanding the concepts involved.

As for being easily entertained, well I do waste my time before work on silliness like this. :D

Really?

I'm attempting to do what, again?
The film is almost 30 years old and has more than earned the money back that it took to make it. My opinion will do nothing to ruin its "merits" to people who are fans of James Cameron or fans of the Alien franchise,

I plot pointed several plot holes and you disagree with them. We don't have to agree and you aren't going to change my mind on what I see as being holes in the internal logic of the film.

If you like it, then bully for you.
I need more from my entertainment.
Especially my sci fi.
Perhaps you don't.

We'll just have to disagree.

The Other Waldo Pepper
01-31-2014, 12:48 PM
See...my reasoning was based on what I think is the best aspect of RotS. The entire Jedi Order (Or most) has been wiped out except for two guys...and those two guys by themselves very nearly succeed in stopping years of tyranny! That's how badass Jedis are. Yoda has no problem getting to the Emperor, in Part IV, Obi-Wan makes getting to the tractor beam look easy.

They've removed a major asset by turning Anakin into a cyborg. Try again guys!

Isn't there a built-in justification for this? "Decide you must, how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could; but you would destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered." Yoda's presumably doing his see-the-future bit, and presumably getting a REPLY HAZY - TRY AGAIN followed by a MY REPLY IS NO.

The way I figure it, Yoda and Obi-Wan spent two solid decades thinking, hey, look, as soon as The Force indicates that the time is right, we're gonna swing right back into action; might be this week, maybe next month; any year now; aaany year now.

nevadaexile
01-31-2014, 12:51 PM
To reiterate, if something will be a problem and some small percentage of the time will lead to a loss, you look at the cost of the loss, vs the solution and make a business decision.

Your not understanding how a business makes decisions doesn't make Aliens a bad film.

Since I didn't introduce an argument about the business decisions of the Aliens film (the film and the entire franchise actually avoid sensible business decisions as far as I can determine) you did, I'm really at a loss at how to argue your points for you.

The reason that I introduced the aerial survey of the planet is to ascertain why on a relatively small astral body an alien ship (which according information introduced in the "prequel" Prometheus may not be the only one) was not discovered prior to the planet being terraformed.

A character states that the colonists have been on the moon for years and have never discovered the Xenomorphs. That's not something that I made up; it's part of the screenplay.

The film's narrative is that W-Y, for reasons unexplained, constructed a massive terraforming reactor on a distant moon for reasons that are only supported by the plot, not by common sense or any "business" perspectives. In doing so, they were completely oblivious to the fact that life already existed on the planet, which is mistake so basic that it again could only exist to advance the plot.

In the director's cut of the film, the colonists are shown traveling to the Alien ship at Carter Burke's direction ( whose coordinates they somehow received) and bringing Xenomorphs eggs back to their compound. Since this violates the "Quarantine" policies established as being the 'reason" for the rather byzantine plan in the first film, how these life forms escaped yet again also relies upon (yet again) the plot requiring it.

The film then shows an incompetent group of military members then get housed by a life form for which they have no respect and still later has those incompetent members (well, the survivors that is) think that sealing themselves inside of a command center which has already been breached by those same Xenomorphs as being a sound strategic (or even tactical) battle plan.

The film is a plot hole ridden mess. It relies on loud explosions, lots of shooting,smartass comments and a wailing little kid to cover up its rather convoluted logic processes. Some people like that as it makes the film seem cool; some people think an Etch-A-Sketch is amazing.

We disagree on what we believe to be holes in the plot.
We'll just have to leave it at that

Lumpy
01-31-2014, 01:37 PM
Speaking of Alien, how much time elapsed between the chest pop incident and the killing in the chains-hanging-down room? What did the alien eat in the meantime?In the novelization (deleted scene?) the crew discover that the alien got into their supplies and ate all the food they had onboard. And for that matter the creature is supposed to be "biomechanical"- at least as much nanomachine as living cells. Maybe a large part of its body is metal or ceramic, which it could easily eat being able to secrete acid. Maybe it can tap into power lines and use electricity for its actual energy.

Jophiel
01-31-2014, 01:40 PM
The Dark Knight - The Joker blows up an entire police station, yet he and Lao were the only ones unharmed. Worse yet, The Joker was within the bomb's immediate blast radius. At the very least, he'd be knocked down by the shock wave.
Forget that. How about, the police catch a guy who has been terrorizing the city, is extremely dangerous and has tremendous resources at his disposal. They get him into custody and leave him chained up to a bench for however long.

But no one can be bothered to wipe a rag over his face to take some photos and try to get some real ID on the guy. Just let him sit there for hours in his face paint because, hey, who cares? Ain't like he's anyone worth anything.

Justin_Bailey
01-31-2014, 01:47 PM
But no one can be bothered to wipe a rag over his face to take some photos and try to get some real ID on the guy. Just let him sit there for hours in his face paint because, hey, who cares? Ain't like he's anyone worth anything.

It's shown earlier that Batman has been running a facial ID program on him almost non-stop since he killed a Copybat. Presumably, he didn't come up with anything.

wevets
01-31-2014, 01:54 PM
The film then shows an incompetent group of military members then get housed by a life form for which they have no respect


Um, no the military members housed the alien life forms, not the other way 'round...


Pretty sure you meant to say hosed, but the errant pun was too good to pass up

Balance
01-31-2014, 02:08 PM
[LIST=1]
It's a moon, not a planet. Therefore its surface area is far smaller than a planet making it easier to survey. And that would have to be done by satellite, not by a spacecraft, unless they planned on a survey taking years. Also the gravity would be lower than Earth-normal because of its smaller size.
False assumption. The fact that it's a moon doesn't necessarily mean it's small--it just means that it would have to be orbiting a very big planet. Its primary is Calpamos, a gas giant, which qualifies. The fact that they're trying to terraform it means that it has enough gravity to hold an Earth-like atmosphere, and there's no obvious indication in the films that the gravity is much lower than Earth's. In essence, practical considerations indicate that the moon has to be pretty big or incredibly dense.

Other secondary canon material on the setting (the Aliens: Colonial Marines Technical Manual (http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Aliens:_Colonial_Marines_Technical_Manual)) establishes LV-426 as having an average diameter of 12201 km (vs 12742 km for Earth) and a gravity of 0.86g. That doesn't seem out of line with what we see, though it's quite big even for a gas giant's moon. I believe there was some mention in secondary materials that it was a relatively recent capture--it may have actually been a lone planet at one point, and is only called a moon because it's been captured by the much larger planet.

Again…the colonists had no aircraft or spaceships. To get anywhere in a wheeled vehicle (even on a small moon) would take hours or days. The site obviously had to be close or they would have missed it. Or the story would have unfolded over the span of a t least a year, rather than the several months or so that it did.
The Jorden's vehicle allegedly has a top on-road speed of 110 km/hr (~69mph). Modern ATVs generally have top speeds between 40 and 60 mph, so it's not implausible. Even if it's restricted to less than half that under off-road conditions, one long day's drive could put the distance at ~200-300 miles. In the director's cut, a discussion between the colony ops manager and his assistant mentioned sending them "out past the Ilium range a couple of days ago" when the Jordens call in to report that they've found something. So, call it two days travel to reach the Derelict--that puts it maybe 400 to 600 miles away, apparently on the far side of a low mountain range. (Which would account for it surviving the explosion of the processing plant, but that's another matter.)

So, it was hardly in their backyard, but it wasn't so far away that the timeline (Russ Jorden getting facehugged and getting back to the colony base before the chestburster popped out) is unreasonable.
The satellite dish wasn't that large. And why would there only be ONE? Is redundancy no longer a valid concept in the future?
The dish itself is just a big piece of metal; there's not much to go wrong with it short of something big hitting it really hard. They probably had or could fabricate spare parts for it, but there was really no reason to have redundant dishes, just spares for the equipment in the feed assembly. Given a two-week communications delay, they weren't going to get realtime responses from the company, anyway, so a few hours of repair time if it were damaged would not make that much difference.
The alien ship (actually the Space Jockey/Engineer's ship) is shown to be the size of a football arena. Hardly small. And it's in the open. It's not hidden.
Well, a football field, anyway. It's settled in what appears to be a crater, or at least a ruggedly rocky area, not entirely in the open, and its curved structure and textured surface give it a superficial resemblance to a kind of odd rock formation. Between that and the perpetually murky, dusty atmosphere, it would be pretty hard to spot.

The surface area of LV-426 is ~468 million km2. If we take you literally, and say that the Derelict is the size of the Superdome, we're looking at it covering an area of ~0.2 km2. Put another way, here's a pretty good satellite image (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/US/05/27/louisiana.flooding/t1larg.mississippi.river.plumes.nasa.jpg) of South Louisiana. Can you spot the Superdome?
You hardly be "saving money" if you attempt to terraform a moon with a supervolcano on it or a large mass of a naturally occurring, but unstable element. How would you find that out? Oh wait..you'd SURVEY THE ENTIRE MOON TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WASN"T ANYTHING LIKE THAT THERE.
They probably did. A supervolcano is pretty noticeable, what with massive heat signatures and the like. Large masses of unstable elements (by which I presume you mean radioactive) would be easily detectable by their emissions (and probably make the W-Y execs drool, not back off). A survey ship could spot those much more easily than a (relatively) small, passive, rock-looking structure in the middle of a rock formation. They probably landed a survey team on the surface, too, but the Derelict's location doesn't look like a good landing site, even if they happened to look at it.

The survey team found no life, of course. Apparently not even microbes. No microbes in your survey area is a pretty good indication there's no native life on the planet--or, as one of the W-Y reps said, "It's a rock. No indigenous life."

Bricker
01-31-2014, 02:11 PM
The truth (http://www.sff.net/people/adam-troy/random/theories.htm) is more sinister.

Sorry. An entertaining read, but not authored by anyone who knows the show.

In "The Postman Cometh," (Season 2, Episode 18) Mary Ann says she has a boyfriend -- not a fiance. (Horace Higgenbotham, to be precise). Later, however, she admits she made it up -- Horace is not even really her boyfriend.

So the supposed reason to doubt Mary Ann's travelling alone is itself false.

Now, it's true that in "Rescue from Gilligan's Island," the 1978 movie that reunited the cast -- except Tina Louise -- we see that Mary Ann actually did have a fiance. But since the other events of that movie also give lie to the claims that she was an undercover federal operative, either way the author is wrong.

Miller
01-31-2014, 02:13 PM
The reason that I introduced the aerial survey of the planet is to ascertain why on a relatively small astral body an alien ship (which according information introduced in the "prequel" Prometheus may not be the only one) was not discovered prior to the planet being terraformed.

Because even a relatively small moon is still really, really, really, really fucking big. So big that you would not be able to spot something the size of a football field from orbit. The idea of them finding a derelict spaceship during an orbital survey is actually more ridiculous than the idea of them not bothering to even look for one.

A character states that the colonists have been on the moon for years and have never discovered the Xenomorphs. That's not something that I made up; it's part of the screenplay.

Again, so what? There's less than two hundred colonists on the entire moon, it's only recently that it's been possible to go outside the colony without suffocating, and even with it's new atmosphere, the environment is extremely hostile. I absolutely would not expect the colonists to find the derelict ship on their own. It would be highly unrealistic if they did.

The film's narrative is that W-Y, for reasons unexplained, constructed a massive terraforming reactor on a distant moon for reasons that are only supported by the plot, not by common sense or any "business" perspectives.

Just to be clear, are you arguing that the concept of terraforming in general doesn't make sense? Or are you arguing that terraforming this particular planet doesn't make sense? If the later, why not? What makes this particular moon a bad choice for terraforming?

In doing so, they were completely oblivious to the fact that life already existed on the planet, which is mistake so basic that it again could only exist to advance the plot.

Life doesn't really "exist" on the planet, in the sense that there's any sort of biosphere native to the LV-426. There's some life in the cargo hold of a single crashed space ship that no one knows exists, or could reasonably locate. It's not like there were herds of wild xenomorphs roaming the plains.

In the director's cut of the film, the colonists are shown traveling to the Alien ship at Carter Burke's direction ( whose coordinates they somehow received) and bringing Xenomorphs eggs back to their compound. Since this violates the "Quarantine" policies established as being the 'reason" for the rather byzantine plan in the first film, how these life forms escaped yet again also relies upon (yet again) the plot requiring it.

The quarantine policies were for getting stuff back to Earth, not into the colony.

The film then shows an incompetent group of military members then get housed by a life form for which they have no respect and still later has those incompetent members (well, the survivors that is) think that sealing themselves inside of a command center which has already been breached by those same Xenomorphs as being a sound strategic (or even tactical) battle plan.

It was breached when it was defended by largely unarmed and untrained civilians. It's not unreasonable for a heavily armed and experienced team of marines to expect to succeed in the same situation where a bunch of civvies failed.

The film is a plot hole ridden mess. It relies on loud explosions, lots of shooting,smartass comments and a wailing little kid to cover up its rather convoluted logic processes. Some people like that as it makes the film seem cool; some people think an Etch-A-Sketch is amazing.


It's not really a particularly confusing plot, and (particularly relative to most other movie sci-fi) requires very, very little fanwanking to sort out the few kinks. If you think the plot to this movie is a mess, I can't imagine that you like very much in the way of science fiction to begin with.

Jophiel
01-31-2014, 02:29 PM
It's shown earlier that Batman has been running a facial ID program on him almost non-stop since he killed a Copybat. Presumably, he didn't come up with anything.
I doubt the average cops knew that and it's still no excuse for not cleaning the guy up for photos. This wasn't someone arrested for jaywalking; I'd think getting getting as much info on him as possible would be something of a priority.

Justin_Bailey
01-31-2014, 02:55 PM
I doubt the average cops knew that and it's still no excuse for not cleaning the guy up for photos. This wasn't someone arrested for jaywalking; I'd think getting getting as much info on him as possible would be something of a priority.

Gordon had to know and Gordon was running the Joker arrest.

Jophiel
01-31-2014, 03:29 PM
Gordon had to know and Gordon was running the Joker arrest.
Still not a plausible reason to NOT do the obvious and wipe the guy's face. Honestly, there is no plausible reason -- it was only because "Joker wears makeup" which is what made it so annoying.

"Oh, hey, Batman says his supercomputer didn't identify this homicidal maniac who has been terrorizing the city so let's just leave him wearing his identity-obscuring makeup until the end of time. No reason to wipe that off, you know. Who wants coffee?"

Death of Rats
01-31-2014, 03:55 PM
The "not killing people" part wouldn't be the issue.
Losing your terraforming equipment due to a massive explosion WOULD be.
And everyone only wants to undertake projects that have high probabilities of success.

The point is that the end game for W-Y is getting the Xenomorph. The cost of sacrificing the Nostromo and a terraforming site worth hundreds of millions is piddling compared to the Billions to Trillions that having the Xeonomorph could mean to the company.

And if the terrafomers can get them the Xenomorph without losing the site, even better.

Robot Arm
01-31-2014, 04:35 PM
By the way....why did Obi-Wan and Yoda go into hiding? Either one of them should have been able to kick Vader's ass seven different ways with their eyes closed after Vader is stuck in his outfit.

After that, you go after the Emperor.Speaking of which, there's that bit just before Obi-Wan hacks Anakin's legs off (known, in certain circles, as a "flesh wound") where he says "give it up, I have the high ground." Dude, you've been leaping through the air on conference tables, climbing on towering scaffolding as it collapses, and then floating on wreckage down a river of lava, and suddenly you think it's all over because you're slightly uphill from the guy. Seriously?

Little Nemo
01-31-2014, 05:34 PM
They didn't go into hiding, the went into exile. Yoda and Obi-Wan thought they were the only two Jedi left in existence. Yoda went to sulk and be miserable for failing the galaxy and Obi-Wan went to Tatooine to protect Luke.Another plot hole out of the hundreds on the Star Wars saga: why did Obi-Wan and Yoda decide to protect Luke and not Leia? They were both infants and there was no reason to assume one was more vulnerable than the other. Two surviving Jedis - two children that needed protection. The math seems pretty obvious. But for some reason Luke got a personal Jedi guardian angel and Leia was just sent off with a wish of good luck.

wevets
01-31-2014, 05:39 PM
Another plot hole out of the hundreds on the Star Wars saga: why did Obi-Wan and Yoda decide to protect Luke and not Leia? They were both infants and there was no reason to assume one was more vulnerable than the other. Two surviving Jedis - two children that needed protection. The math seems pretty obvious. But for some reason Luke got a personal Jedi guardian angel and Leia was just sent off with a wish of good luck.


That one actually kinda makes sense. Leia is adopted into a powerful political family, who will be near & around Palpatine & Vader - therefore Obi-Wan or Yoda can't hang around because Vader will just feel his presence, just like he does on the Death Star.

Luke is on a backwater planet (but really, Lucas, the same planet Anakin was from originally? Isn't there a whole galaxy to choose from?) so Obi-Wan can hang near Luke with no-one the wiser.

Obi-Wan just has to stay near Luke and hope the Organas and their political power can protect Leia (he turned out to be wrong on that one, not foreseeing the eventual dissolution of the Senate.)

The Other Waldo Pepper
01-31-2014, 05:46 PM
Speaking of which, there's that bit just before Obi-Wan hacks Anakin's legs off (known, in certain circles, as a "flesh wound") where he says "give it up, I have the high ground." Dude, you've been leaping through the air on conference tables, climbing on towering scaffolding as it collapses, and then floating on wreckage down a river of lava, and suddenly you think it's all over because you're slightly uphill from the guy. Seriously?

In fairness, this is Obi-Wan Kenobi, who beat Darth Maul, who had the high ground.

enalzi
01-31-2014, 05:58 PM
Still not a plausible reason to NOT do the obvious and wipe the guy's face. Honestly, there is no plausible reason -- it was only because "Joker wears makeup" which is what made it so annoying.

"Oh, hey, Batman says his supercomputer didn't identify this homicidal maniac who has been terrorizing the city so let's just leave him wearing his identity-obscuring makeup until the end of time. No reason to wipe that off, you know. Who wants coffee?"

They justify this in the movie. They already ran his prints and got nothing back. Gordon says to leave him alone and let him sit because he's worried his mob lawyers will find any technicality to get him off.

This is actually one of my favorite parts about the Dark Knight. Pretty much until the Joker escapes, they underestimate him the entire time and worry a lot more about the mob.

Don't Panic
01-31-2014, 06:08 PM
They justify this in the movie. They already ran his prints and got nothing back. Gordon says to leave him alone and let him sit because he's worried his mob lawyers will find any technicality to get him off.
A bit of a shame, really. It may be just me, but I think a scene with the Joker in an orange jumpsuit and no makeup, with nothing left of the Joker look except the scars, would have been pretty cool, somehow.

Then again, I also absolutely hated the way they did Two-Face. Instead of the ridiculously CGI-ed burned face, I wanted his face wrapped up in bandages, which would make a hell of a lot more sense for a burns victim (and evoke his look in The Dark Knight Returns (http://media.dcentertainment.com/sites/default/files/galleries/file/ajax/field_galleryimages/und/form-2qVMXrakEpw5pPLErZud1h-ZtF3b8WMQz3Cax0E6eY8/Harvey%20Dent-TwoFace.jpg)), and maybe have him reveal his messed-up face by peeling the bandages off in his final scene.

MaxTheVool
01-31-2014, 06:12 PM
Speaking of which, there's that bit just before Obi-Wan hacks Anakin's legs off (known, in certain circles, as a "flesh wound") where he says "give it up, I have the high ground." Dude, you've been leaping through the air on conference tables, climbing on towering scaffolding as it collapses, and then floating on wreckage down a river of lava, and suddenly you think it's all over because you're slightly uphill from the guy. Seriously?

My all-time favorite fan-wank concerns this scene. Clearly, it should NOT just be over because of higher ground. Anakin could just hop off on the other side of the river, or float 10 feet downstream, or any of a variety of other things. The point of Obi-Wan's comment is not to accurately analyze the situation. Rather, it's to taunt Anakin into doing just about the stupidest possible thing, namely, jumping all the way over Obi-Wan to try to get to the other side, thus leaving himself vulnerable. It's Obi-Wan taking advantage of Anakin's hubris.

(I have zero evidence that any of that was what George Lucas intended, sadly.)

Jophiel
01-31-2014, 06:15 PM
They justify this in the movie. They already ran his prints and got nothing back. Gordon says to leave him alone and let him sit because he's worried his mob lawyers will find any technicality to get him off.
That's a terrible reason. While I'll grant that they "explain" it, it's certainly not logical or plausible (per the thread title).

dasmoocher
02-03-2014, 02:10 AM
I would think that guarding a naked Mathilda May would be the sort of task one would fight for, regardless of rank.

"Why is the captain, chief of police, and the commissioner guarding that one prisoner? Ohhh..."

Off topic, but I just noticed that Lifeforce was on and here's the online TV Guide description:

A space commander and a Scotland Yard inspector search for a naked space vampire loose in London.

I guess if it were 1955 instead of 1985 it would be a clothed space vampire.

septimus
02-03-2014, 02:49 AM
I'd like to see a thread about which logic/plausibility flaws matter and which don't.

Many flaws don't detract at all from my enjoyment of a movie. For example, the letters of transit had no more relevance to the romantic themes of Casablanca than the bottle is relevant to the "game" of Spin the Bottle!

Some logic errors do ruin a movie. Basic with John Travolta is an intriguing mystery thriller, spoiled when one learns the "solution" has severe inconsistencies with the plot.

BTW, a few confusions ("How did he know ...?") have been cleared up by watching Deleted Scenes with Director's Commentary: scenes necessary for logical plot development may be deleted because they delay the action.

grude
02-03-2014, 03:31 AM
I don't think they've ever encountered intelligent aliens in this universe. There's no indication of it in any of the movies - the line about Acturians not withstanding.



I've seen a fanwank that posits Arcturia is a human colony notorious for transvestite sex workers, or some kind of futuristic sex change or actual hermaphrodite surgery. Hence the line in the movie.

cochrane
02-03-2014, 12:09 PM
There's the whole Amidala issue. First she's the Queen of Naboo - okay, we can accept that. But then Lucas suddenly decides he doesn't want a hereditary monarchy so he declares she was elected queen and has her leaving office when her term is done.

So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

A guy was running for Queen? There's a flaw right there. :p

Not if it was Jar-Jar. :p

Push You Down
02-03-2014, 12:57 PM
More than that... notice that all the gangs are multiracial? No all-Chinese gangs, no all-Italian gangs, no all-Puerto Rican gangs, no all-black gangs. Every gang is a rainbow coalition!

Well... not accurate at all.

There's an all Chinese gang - The Savage Hans
The Riffs appear to be all black.
The Boppers are all black.
The Hurricanes were supposed to be all latino.
The Hi-Hats appear to be all white.
The Panzers are probably all black since they have a black panthers motif.

dougie_monty
02-25-2015, 03:37 PM
The classic flaw, that's been debated for over 60 years, is "What did Ozzie Nelson do for a living?"

When the radio show "The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet" moved to TV, Ozzie was still in his 40s, too young to be retired. Ozzie basically spent his time meddling in people's lives for 14 years. When I watched the show in the early 60s, as a kid, it didn't really bother me. But when I watched the reruns in the mid-80s (on Nick, I, think) Ozzie's lack of employment really bothered me. Why didn't they even come up with something even semi-plausible; full mental disability, inherited wealth, welfare cheat, living off of investments. But not a mention how he put two kids through USC and through law school. I know, in real life, he was a retired band leader, so why not use that as part of his background on the show?

He probably had some secret investment scheme going, with Ward Cleaver and Steve Douglas.;)
Oh, and don't forget Gomez Addams. :)

Cartoonacy
02-25-2015, 05:09 PM
This has long bugged me about the 1948 Superman movie serial, and the TV show Lois and Clark: the New Adventures of Superman. No other version of Superman has this problem.

In the first episodes of these two series, Clark Kent is wearing glasses long before he came up with the idea of putting on a costume and becoming Superman. Why would he start wearing glasses before he had a secret identity to protect?

Find Friends
02-25-2015, 05:13 PM
With regard to to Gilligan, so many people have commented that the Professor should have simply repaired the boat.

Early on we actually saw the Skipper try to repair the boat with Gilligan's "help". Even if you had never seen the episode, you can guess the flaw in that plan.

Rather than repair the boat, or even build a a very stable raft, there would be a far more sensible use of the professor's talents.

Just make a transmitter! It would not even need to send a voice or other transmitted sound. Just a simple SOS beep would be fine.

- - -

It had occurred to me to start a thread on Samantha before her marriage. The premiere episode had her repeatedly run into mortal Darrin Stevens, apparently on busy metropolitan streets. They eventually started seeing each other, and the rest is history. The implication was that "fate" was in force.

What was she doing hanging around that particular city? Working temporary jobs to get a feel for how the "other half" lives? (Aka: "slumming")

I mean, for the most part the magical folks did not seem to mingle with the mortal world. There were clouds to float on, and apparently swinging clubs (invisible in the clouds) that mortals normally had no access to. They presumably would never have to drop down to a grocery store, since they could magic up food and every other physical need. Of course, several witches babysat for Samantha's kids, or were pains-in-the neck to Darrin, or both. But all that was in the wake of Samantha's marriage to a mortal. Otherwise they would have likely continued to "travel in different circles" as she put it to an amorous old flame who wondered if he might bump into Darrin.

It was just a thought. I had decided that it might be silly to try to get a whole thread going on it. Although the silly responses might have kept it going for a while.

Charlie Wayne
02-25-2015, 05:18 PM
For that matter, how did they get Kong back to New York? He's probably as big as the boat itself, and even with every surviving crew member helping, I don't see how they could have moved Kong. And once they did get him onto the ship, how did they keep him docile on the weeks-long voyage back to New York? They had used up all their ether subduing Kong in the first place.

I noticed that the recent Peter Jackson movie conveniently glossed over all of these glaring logistical problems.


I always figgered they threw a rope around his neck and towed him back. Isn't that how it happened?

Charlie Wayne
02-25-2015, 05:22 PM
With regard to to Gilligan, so many people have commented that the Professor should have simply repaired the boat.

......<snip> ...... <snip>......



If you were stuck on an island with Ginger and Maryanne, would you have wanted to repair the boat and go back to civilization? I think I would have wanted to wait until I had an opportunity to conduct a detailed examination of one or both of those girls. I would have told them I was a doctor and examined my little heart out.

I would have examined and examined until I could examine no more. Oh, it would have been fun. The best part was that you were bound to prefer one or both of them and you could have examined them for a long long time.

Lumpy
02-25-2015, 05:50 PM
With regard to to Gilligan, so many people have commented that the Professor should have simply repaired the boat.

Early on we actually saw the Skipper try to repair the boat with Gilligan's "help". Even if you had never seen the episode, you can guess the flaw in that plan.It was the Professor's idea to use Gilligan's "pancake syrup" as glue; and when Gilligan discovered it didn't last he tried to warn everybody but was too late. For once Gilligan didn't deserve the blame IMHO.

Rather than repair the boat, or even build a a very stable raft, there would be a far more sensible use of the professor's talents. Just make a transmitter! It would not even need to send a voice or other transmitted sound. Just a simple SOS beep would be fine. Ok, now the following is Gilligan's fault. First, the Professor managed to repair the Minnow's transmitter, only to have Gilligan smash it. Then in another episode they found a downed weather balloon with a data transmitter- Gilligan smashed that too. Then they figured out how to jury-rig the Minnow's receiver into a transmitter; you guessed it, Gilligan smashed it. They tried using the transistor radio as a transmitter but it couldn't put out enough power. And if you accept the reunion TV movie as canon, Gilligan eventually smashed that as well. The Mars probe that landed on the island? Wrecked by Gilligan. Well you get the idea... since a working transmitter meant rescue it couldn't survive.

The Other Waldo Pepper
02-25-2015, 06:16 PM
In the first episodes of these two series, Clark Kent is wearing glasses long before he came up with the idea of putting on a costume and becoming Superman. Why would he start wearing glasses before he had a secret identity to protect?

He may not have had a secret identity, but he had a secret ability, right?

He wants to pass as normal while secretly performing superhuman feats, and doesn't want people suspecting anything unusually impressive about him; he could tone it down enough to match the feats of a gold medalist with 20/10 vision; he could tone it down even further, to match the feats of a bronze medalist with 20/20 vision; but even before deciding to create a superhero persona, he obviously wants to go even further when it comes to projecting an image of fallibility and imperfection.

That's true whether or not he wears the glasses -- so why not put an ounce of work into constantly reminding everyone that, hey, isn't it obvious that I'm not inhumanly good at everything? Can't you see that I'm a little below average at some stuff?

SirRay
02-25-2015, 06:48 PM
During the time this thread was on hiatus, I watched "The Warriors" for the first time during the summer of 2014. It actually wasn't as bad as I was lead to believe - indeed, it was a bit fun.

Somebody was nice enough to post a lot of the shooting location for the movie:
"The New York City Filming Locations of The Warriors (http://www.scoutingny.com/the-new-york-city-filming-locations-of-the-warriors-ny-youve-changed/)" (Spoiler - they never filmed any scenes in the Bronx, but they did film some in Queens). You can see a few "civilians" in the screenshots, but possibly they blew the extras budget on the gang conclave scenes.

As for the topic, one reason I think the Warrior's just didn't hide till dawn in the film is because when you think about it, the police are actually pretty efficient in the movie - they sneak up on the gang conclave (no flashing lights or sirens on the cars) and bust a whole lot of gang members, (I figure the rather paltry two bus-loads of arrested gang members shown driving under the el was due to production budget reasons), the rape-decoy snags a Warrior, police snag a few more warriors in the subway (and kill one as he gets thrown in front of a passing subway train) - not to mention a lot of other hostile gangs are out looking for them (as the DJ likes to remind them constantly). Possibly if they stole some cars the police would have snagged them faster, I dunno (actually, I don't recall a lot of non-police or fire department vehicle traffic in the film, beside the Rogues' 1954[?] Cadillac). I suppose taking the bus was right out.

I was in Junior HS when the Warriors came out in 1979, and not affiliated with any gangs, but quite frankly guys wearing Mime Make-up or Baseball uniforms on the street would have gotten a severe beat-down (the actors playing the Baseball Furies and the HiHats don't look particularly tough). Ironically, I'd say the Orphans jeans and t-shirts would have been a more likely gang style - best not to stand out too much if your dealing drugs or jacking cars and DON'T want to get busted quickly ("Officer, the shoplifter was wearing a freaking Mime costume!")...The site linked above has shots of other gangs - not sure that the stripped shirt & overall wearing "Punks" gang has a particular apt name - there was a real Punk scene then, and the guys at CBGB's didn't look much like that (maybe some of the girls did).

One last thing - you got an all girl gang, and they seem to prefer each other's company enough that they only "seduce" (some) of the warriors so they can snuff them (to get street cred?)...and you call the gang the "LIZZIES"? <cinemasins>Sigh</cinemasins> :smack:

Jim's Son
02-25-2015, 07:11 PM
How is it that three intelligent women in "Charlie's Angels" can never figure out a way to meet their boss or even come up with a picture of him?

Peter Morris
02-25-2015, 07:14 PM
There's the whole Amidala issue. First she's the Queen of Naboo - okay, we can accept that. But then Lucas suddenly decides he doesn't want a hereditary monarchy so he declares she was elected queen and has her leaving office when her term is done.

So we're now supposed to accept that a fourteen year old decided to run for the office of Queen? And the voters of Naboo decided she was the best candidate for the job and elected her? Can you imagine how bad the guy who ran against her must have been?

It could follow the model of the Danish royal succession (http://kongehuset.dk/english/the-monarchy-in-denmark/History/history)around the supposed time of Hamlet:
- the monarch was elected
- only the nobles would have a vote in the issue
- it would usually go to the eldest son of the former king
- but if the prince was mad or otherwise unsuitable the crown could go to another suitable candidate.

So, if Amidala was the only child of the last monarch, and with no serious objection, her election would be more or less automatic.

splatterpunk
02-25-2015, 10:59 PM
If you were stuck on an island with Ginger and Maryanne, would you have wanted to repair the boat and go back to civilization? I think I would have wanted to wait until I had an opportunity to conduct a detailed examination of one or both of those girls. I would have told them I was a doctor and examined my little heart out.

I would have examined and examined until I could examine no more. Oh, it would have been fun. The best part was that you were bound to prefer one or both of them and you could have examined them for a long long time.

What exactly do you mean by "examine?"

Fenris
02-26-2015, 06:34 AM
If you were stuck on an island with Ginger and Maryanne, would you have wanted to repair the boat and go back to civilization? I think I would have wanted to wait until I had an opportunity to conduct a detailed examination of one or both of those girls. I would have told them I was a doctor and examined my little heart out.

I would have examined and examined until I could examine no more. Oh, it would have been fun. The best part was that you were bound to prefer one or both of them and you could have examined them for a long long time.

What about Lovie Howell? You left her out!

BobLibDem
02-26-2015, 06:55 AM
How about the Batman 1960s TV show? To get to the Batcave, they pull back the head of the bust, press the button, and the bookcase reveals two poles conveniently labled (https://www.google.com/search?q=batpoles&newwindow=1&biw=1280&bih=832&tbm=isch&imgil=EE3Etv0ibRBFyM%253A%253BWf0qq3_LcHR96M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fdc.wikia.com%25252Fwiki%25 252FBatpole&source=iu&pf=m&fir=EE3Etv0ibRBFyM%253A%252CWf0qq3_LcHR96M%252C_&usg=__3QTFaIwAIQeCTD0wK6LzrdStVPM%3D&ved=0CCkQyjc&ei=0xfvVLzHN4KyyASa3II4#imgdii=_&imgrc=EE3Etv0ibRBFyM%253A%3BWf0qq3_LcHR96M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg2.wikia.nocookie.net%252F__cb2013 0504074454%252Fmarvel_dc%252Fimages%252F7%252F7e%252FBatpoles.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fdc.wikia.com% 252Fwiki%252FBatpole%3B512%3B384)for Bruce and Dick. They slide down the poles in full street clothes, and by the time they reach bottom they have shed their street clothes and put on their uniforms, all presumably while maintaining their grip on the Batpoles. How is that possible? Why not simply have a locker room at the base of the pole?

CalMeacham
02-26-2015, 07:06 AM
I always figgered they threw a rope around his neck and towed him back. Isn't that how it happened?

I've discussed this on this Board before, in another thread.

It's a major logistical problem, no doubt about it, which is why the original movie conveniently glosses over it by cutting from Denham declaring Kong "The Eighth Wonder of the World!" to a theater marquee in New York declaring the same thing. Jackson did it, too, but he was only following in the footsteps of the original.

Of course, the important thing was to show Kong in New York, not worry about how he got there. The movie does say that they'd build a raft, but that was obviously to get him to the Venture. They didn't say they were planning on towing him on a raft all the way to the States, although some people believe that to be the case.

The Delos Lovelace novelization is, IIRC, silent on the issue, too. The Gold Key/Whitman comic adaptation from circa 1968 shows Kong being towed back, apparently unconscious. It looks as if he;s simply floating, head up, although he might be lying on a raft submerged by his weight.

The cover of an audiobook of the Lovelace book depicts Kong tied up on the deck of the Venture, where he takes up too much real estate.

The only plausible solution is in the least plausible movie version -- in the 1976 King Kong the ape is stowed in one of the compartments of the petroleum tanker Petrox Explorer, which would certainly be big enough for the task, and wouldn't leave Kong cramped or waterlogged. On the other hand, it's still an unlikely solution for two reasons:

1.) Who the hell takes an oilo tanker on an exploratory visit? It's a huge freakiin' ship that takes a lot of fuel to move. Did they think they were going to find a gusher they could conveniently fill the tanker with, with no oilfield infrastructure?

2.) The holds on tankers are, I've been told, filled with noxious gases from the petroleum they have carried. It's difficult to get out, and people opening hatches on such tankers have been overcome by the rising vapors. In fact, to prevent the possibility of volatile petroleum vapors from catching fire/exploding from an open flame or spark, they usually route the exhaust from the ship's engines into the space over the oil in the tanks. Unless they scrubbed out the hold shut off those vents, and blew in fresh air, they'd end up delivering a dead monkey to New York.

Lumpy
02-26-2015, 07:49 AM
How about the Batman 1960s TV show? To get to the Batcave, they pull back the head of the bust, press the button, and the bookcase reveals two poles conveniently labled (https://www.google.com/search?q=batpoles&newwindow=1&biw=1280&bih=832&tbm=isch&imgil=EE3Etv0ibRBFyM%253A%253BWf0qq3_LcHR96M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fdc.wikia.com%25252Fwiki%25 252FBatpole&source=iu&pf=m&fir=EE3Etv0ibRBFyM%253A%252CWf0qq3_LcHR96M%252C_&usg=__3QTFaIwAIQeCTD0wK6LzrdStVPM%3D&ved=0CCkQyjc&ei=0xfvVLzHN4KyyASa3II4#imgdii=_&imgrc=EE3Etv0ibRBFyM%253A%3BWf0qq3_LcHR96M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg2.wikia.nocookie.net%252F__cb2013 0504074454%252Fmarvel_dc%252Fimages%252F7%252F7e%252FBatpoles.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fdc.wikia.com% 252Fwiki%252FBatpole%3B512%3B384)for Bruce and Dick. They slide down the poles in full street clothes, and by the time they reach bottom they have shed their street clothes and put on their uniforms, all presumably while maintaining their grip on the Batpoles. How is that possible? Why not simply have a locker room at the base of the pole?We never actually follow them all the way down the poles do we? Maybe the locker room is halfway down! :p

Lumpy
02-26-2015, 07:53 AM
During the time this thread was on hiatus, I watched "The Warriors" for the first time during the summer of 2014. It actually wasn't as bad as I was lead to believe - indeed, it was a bit fun.<>The original novel (yes there was one) was more realistic. The movie basically depicts a fantasy world where an entire separate nocturnal society takes over from late evening to dawn.

How is it that three intelligent women in "Charlie's Angels" can never figure out a way to meet their boss or even come up with a picture of him?Did they want to? Maybe a condition of their employment was that they respect his privacy.

MrAtoz
02-26-2015, 07:58 AM
I've discussed this on this Board before, in another thread.

It's a major logistical problem, no doubt about it, which is why the original movie conveniently glosses over it by cutting from Denham declaring Kong "The Eighth Wonder of the World!" to a theater marquee in New York declaring the same thing. Jackson did it, too, but he was only following in the footsteps of the original.

Of course, the important thing was to show Kong in New York, not worry about how he got there.

There is an audio recording of an "interview" with Merian C. Cooper, the original Kong's director. I put "interview" in quotes because I believe that it was actually recorded at a dinner party Cooper was attending. Some of it was incorporated into the audio commentary track on the King Kong DVD.

Anyway, someone actually asked Cooper about this. And also the related question, how did Denham get Kong into a Broadway theater without the whole town knowing about it? Cooper's answer was, essentially, "Look, it's a story about a giant gorilla. You gotta let me have a few implausibilities."

If Cooper didn't worry about it, I figure we don't have to either.

Lumpy
02-26-2015, 08:00 AM
For that matter, how did they get Kong back to New York? He's probably as big as the boat itself, and even with every surviving crew member helping, I don't see how they could have moved Kong. And once they did get him onto the ship, how did they keep him docile on the weeks-long voyage back to New York? They had used up all their ether subduing Kong in the first place.

I noticed that the recent Peter Jackson movie conveniently glossed over all of these glaring logistical problems.
I Shoveled Kong's Shit (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=368647)

terentii
02-26-2015, 08:04 AM
They slide down the poles in full street clothes, and by the time they reach bottom they have shed their street clothes and put on their uniforms, all presumably while maintaining their grip on the Batpoles. How is that possible? Why not simply have a locker room at the base of the pole?

This is the only thing you wonder about when it comes to Batman? :dubious:

One thing that always amazes me is how no one ever makes the connection between Bruce and Dick and Batman and Robin, not even Commissioner Gordon when they come into his office dressed differently five minutes apart, or when he talks to Alfred on the Batphone one minute and then on the regular line to Wayne Manor the next.

Just how dumb is the GCPD, anyway?!? :eek: :confused:

terentii
02-26-2015, 08:07 AM
What about Lovie Howell? You left her out!

Mr Howell would never let you get away with it! :(

What I always wondered was why they didn't just kill Gilligan after the fifth or sixth botched rescue attempt? :confused:

BobLibDem
02-26-2015, 08:08 AM
We never actually follow them all the way down the poles do we? Maybe the locker room is halfway down! :p

That would be more logical, but instead there is the Instant Costume Change Lever (https://www.google.com/search?q=batpole+costume+change+button&newwindow=1&biw=1280&bih=832&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RSjvVOOgN-fLsATkl4DYDA&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgdii=_&imgrc=HhbyPHEmfOfg6M%253A%3B17-htyMO4r22uM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F31.media.tumblr.com%252F42f6938611040b8bc7a3e81a2394b8c6%252Ftumblr _mu5i090Ivi1s2wio8o1_500.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tumblr.com%252Ftagged%252Fbat-pole%3B500%3B269), though if Bruce chooses he can negate the change. (https://www.google.com/search?q=batpole&newwindow=1&biw=1280&bih=832&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qijvVMSHGNLksAT1y4KwDA&ved=0CB0QsAQ#imgdii=_&imgrc=ZIHs4riMQXlwlM%253A%3BCPFuG-k5_Chy-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F4.bp.blogspot.com%252F-0CBhvI8f8vE%252FTo1CLvlasvI%252FAAAAAAAAD4g%252Fd8mvOTy829s%252Fs1600%252Fscreen-capture-7.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftothebatpoles.blogspot.com%252F2011%252F10%252F35-36-shoot-crooked-arrowwalk-straight.html%3B625%3B463)

DrFidelius
02-26-2015, 08:39 AM
What about Lovie Howell? You left her out!

You are a bounder and a cad to suggest such with a married woman.

johnpost
02-26-2015, 09:24 AM
How about the Batman 1960s TV show? To get to the Batcave, they pull back the head of the bust, press the button, and the bookcase reveals two poles conveniently labled for Bruce and Dick. They slide down the poles in full street clothes, and by the time they reach bottom they have shed their street clothes and put on their uniforms, all presumably while maintaining their grip on the Batpoles. How is that possible? Why not simply have a locker room at the base of the pole?

they needed the gravity assist to get into those tights.

one time the Joker switched the signs with hilarious results.

Fenris
02-26-2015, 09:39 AM
You are a bounder and a cad to suggest such with a married woman.

Lovie is a free spirit and shan't follow your Victorian hidebound morals. She is all things to all men. Mr. Howell is whom she stays with, but even he can't/wouldn't try to tie Lovie down.

Drunky Smurf
02-26-2015, 12:06 PM
If you were stuck on an island with Ginger and Maryanne, would you have wanted to repair the boat and go back to civilization? I think I would have wanted to wait until I had an opportunity to conduct a detailed examination of one or both of those girls. I would have told them I was a doctor and examined my little heart out.

I would have examined and examined until I could examine no more. Oh, it would have been fun. The best part was that you were bound to prefer one or both of them and you could have examined them for a long long time.

So you would have been all up in their buttholes for all those years. You are a proctologist are you not?

racepug
02-26-2015, 12:10 PM
In the series finale of ST:TNG (an episode that I love, by the way), when "Q" demonstrates to Captain Picard that in the "pool of goo" nothing is happening to form the proteins that are supposed to be the "building blocks of what you call 'life'" shouldn't Captain Picard (and, indeed, all other human beings in existence at that time) have simply vanished? Unless that's all explained in the show's final scene about the whole episode being an alternate timeline that never really occurred...

Jim's Son
02-26-2015, 02:02 PM
This is the only thing you wonder about when it comes to Batman? :dubious:

One thing that always amazes me is how no one ever makes the connection between Bruce and Dick and Batman and Robin, not even Commissioner Gordon when they come into his office dressed differently five minutes apart, or when he talks to Alfred on the Batphone one minute and then on the regular line to Wayne Manor the next.

Just how dumb is the GCPD, anyway?!? :eek: :confused:

Plenty dumb.

There is a one episode where Gordon is talking to Bruce Wayne while Alfred the Butler is standing some distance away (supposedly to prevent other people from catching his cold). Alfred speaks into a device to make his voice sound like Batman. There is another episode where Wayne is in the commissioner's office when a disguised-as-Batman-henchman visits them. I don't think the real Batman ever informs Gordon that he was actually there.

Steve MB
02-26-2015, 03:42 PM
They slide down the poles in full street clothes, and by the time they reach bottom they have shed their street clothes and put on their uniforms, all presumably while maintaining their grip on the Batpoles. How is that possible? Why not simply have a locker room at the base of the pole?

An alternate hypothesis. (http://www.queenofwands.net/d/20051016.html)

We never actually follow them all the way down the poles do we? Maybe the locker room is halfway down! :p

What happens in their locker room stays in their locker room. :p

terentii
02-26-2015, 08:11 PM
There is another episode where Wayne is in the commissioner's office when a disguised-as-Batman-henchman visits them. I don't think the real Batman ever informs Gordon that he was actually there.

That was another Riddler episode; the henchman was one of the River Rats.

Later on, Gordon did ask Batman if he had been in his office earlier that afternoon and said "No, I didn't think so" when the BM told him he hadn't. So Jim apparently wasn't taken in 100%.

The Other Waldo Pepper
02-26-2015, 08:15 PM
Later on, Gordon did ask Batman if he had been in his office earlier that afternoon and said "No, I didn't think so" when the BM told him he hadn't.

Holy untruth, Batman!

terentii
02-26-2015, 08:16 PM
What happens in their locker room stays in their locker room. :p

Aunt Harriet would never have allowed such things ... if she hadn't been entirely clueless as well!

Aquadementia
02-28-2015, 09:04 AM
I've seen a few episodes of The Big Bang Theory and I wonder why two physicists with decent jobs need to be roommates but the apartment across the hall can be afforded (although barely) by a waitress.
Are they that far in debt from student loans? Or are they so stupid with their money that they are broke from spending it on comic book garbage?
Or on the other side, is she making that much more in tips?

Although, from what I've seen of the show Leonard was the one that needed a roommate for financial reasons. I don't know for sure if that was Sheldon's reason. He could have just wanted a pet.

MentalGuy
02-28-2015, 10:45 AM
In The Shawshank Redemption, how does the poster get back over the hole?

fachverwirrt
02-28-2015, 11:09 AM
Didn't he eventually go to prison, between the next-to-last and last seasons?

A year late, but I didn't see anyone address this.

He went to prison for parking his car in Cuddy's living room. Not for the massive repeated violations of medical ethics, patient rights, HIPAA, and whatever else he could think to violate on a weekly basis.

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