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robert_columbia
11-26-2014, 06:01 PM
This question is not limited to any specific culture or jurisdiction, and is intended to be interpreted broadly. Also, please no terminology nitpicking - I know that there is a technical distinction between "gender" and "sex". Please be reasonable and talk about whichever one is relevant to your example. Look toward the intent of my question and don't get caught up in technicalities and try to argue that I'm asking something other than what I intended.

There's a lot of information floating around about discrimination against women and girls in many parts of the world, and how longstanding de jure policies of discrimination of women have transformed into de facto practices of such, which are finally being eroded away gradually in much of the world, with the "Western" world at the forefront of this. In the last century or two, women have been able to gain admittance to virtually all professions and educational curricula in the West.

I'm curious about the other way around. In what life endeavors is there a significant (i.e. non trivial) factor of discrimination in favor of women and against men, or in favor of girls and against boys?

Obvious examples that I am excluding from the scope of the question due to their obviousness, unless there is something else that makes the example significant (specify):

1) Single gender schools where the curricula are not significantly different from what one could get at an integrated school. If Aunt Ann's University and Finishing School for Young Ladies in Advanced Important Stuff is effectively the only place where one can get a degree in Advanced Important Stuff, then it is in scope for this question. If you could take it at State U (albeit in a slightly less pink or pastel environment), it's excluded under the "obvious" rule.
2) Single gender social, fraternal (sororal?), and sporting organizations, like the Girl Scouts, where there is a similar organization that is open to the male gender. If there is literally no reasonable male equivalent to the organization, it can be in scope.
3) Certain socially enforced (de facto) restrictions on clothing, the most notable of which is the restriction against men wearing skirts other than skirts that form part of traditional ethnic attire (e.g. Scottish kilts). If there is an area where it is literally against the criminal code for a man to wear a skirt but not illegal for a woman to do so, that could be in scope.

For example, are there any professions that are, by law, limited to women in any jurisdiction, especially a western one? Are there any countries where men are not allowed to be practicing midwives, nurses, elementary school teachers, or flight attendants, or where the social barriers to entry are so overwhelming that one can clearly identify a significant de facto ban (not just a little social awkwardness, but enough pressure to dissuade most men from trying)?

coremelt
11-26-2014, 07:07 PM
Wet nurse. Biologically impossible for a male to do.

Also I believe that in strict Muslim countries a midwife has to be female as an unrelated male is not allowed to touch or see a women even for medical need.

UDS
11-26-2014, 07:14 PM
The prison population is overwhelmingly male. Which suggests either that males are sentenced more severely, or that the forms of social deviance in which women tend to engage are less likely to be criminalised or, if criminalised, are less likely to attract a custodial sentence.

Dr. Strangelove
11-26-2014, 07:18 PM
Dental hygenist comes pretty close, at least in North America. No legal restrictions, but women vastly outnumber men, to the point that social expectations mean that some dentists won't consider men for the job.

Skald the Rhymer
11-26-2014, 07:21 PM
Wet nurse. Biologically impossible for a male to do.

Also I believe that in strict Muslim countries a midwife has to be female as an unrelated male is not allowed to touch or see a women even for medical need.

It's ridiculous to call the fact that a man cannot be a we're nurse discrimination.

njtt
11-26-2014, 07:22 PM
The prison population is overwhelmingly male. Which suggests either that males are sentenced more severely, or that the forms of social deviance in which women tend to engage are less likely to be criminalised or, if criminalised, are less likely to attract a custodial sentence.
:dubious:

Or that women are more law abiding, maybe?

chacoguy
11-26-2014, 07:24 PM
Hooters waitress.

WhyNot
11-26-2014, 07:37 PM
Men and boys are not socially allowed to express the same range and intensity of emotions that women are. This is a really hard one, as the mother of a "sensitive" boy. Teaching him to control his tears without resorting to such nauseating phrases as, "Be a man!" was more challenging than I thought it would be. And, for the record: he was no more "sensitive" than my daughter...but that's part of the problem. A boy who cries easily is labeled as if there's something special and/or wrong with him, while a girl who cries easily is just...a girl.

While nursing is open to men, and more men are nurses than most people think (about 9.6% of Registered Nurses are men; many more Nurse Anesthetists are men), they still have to deal with a lot of hassles because of their gender that I don't. They're more often refused by patients on the basis of their gender, more often accused of inappropriate touching, more often assaulted, and of course more subject to people thinking they are doctors. (By the way, my OB/GYN teacher was a man, and a Certified Nurse Midwife. It's rare, but it does happen. I think he said he's only met 2 other male CNM's in his career.)

UDS
11-26-2014, 07:40 PM
:dubious:

Or that women are more law abiding, maybe?
Isn't that just another way of saying that we don't criminalise the behaviours that are preferred by women?

FlikTheBlue
11-26-2014, 08:12 PM
Cheerleaders and exotic dancers/strippers are two obvious ones.

elbows
11-26-2014, 08:18 PM
Nun, show girl, cowgirl!

Chronos
11-26-2014, 08:28 PM
Nuns are just female monks, and cowgirls are just female cattle-herders. There's no real difference between the two beyond the name, in those cases.

Showgirls might still count, though, because while there are male performers, they don't generally do the same sort of performances as showgirls.

Nava
11-26-2014, 08:49 PM
Cheerleaders and exotic dancers/strippers are two obvious ones.

Both have males.

robert_columbia
11-26-2014, 08:56 PM
Dental hygenist comes pretty close, at least in North America. No legal restrictions, but women vastly outnumber men, to the point that social expectations mean that some dentists won't consider men for the job.

Good point. The local community college has a dental hygiene program and I'm pretty sure that they, as a state school, are not allowed to discriminate by gender in terms of admission and that the state can't discriminate later in terms of licensure. So it looks like the divide is de facto and enforced by social pressure rather than nosy government officials denying permits. How does that field work elsewhere in the world? Is it mostly female? Does it exist at all? Is the role taken up by trainee or novice dentists as opposed to forming a separate career path?

The prison population is overwhelmingly male. Which suggests either that males are sentenced more severely, or that the forms of social deviance in which women tend to engage are less likely to be criminalised or, if criminalised, are less likely to attract a custodial sentence.

This is interesting, but not really what I was looking for because women who do go to prison aren't especially seen as gender rebels. If a woman does commit a serious enough offense, it's not likely that the judge will tell her that she won't be allowed to go to prison, sorry, because only men are allowed to do that.

Nun, show girl, cowgirl!

Nuns are just female monks, and cowgirls are just female cattle-herders. There's no real difference between the two beyond the name, in those cases....

Right. There is perhaps more of a pop culture mystique and image surrounding nuns, but there are similar religious and communal organizations for men, called monasteries, that are inhabited by monks. Most major cities in North America and Europe have at least one. The point here is that the answer to the question, "Is it socially acceptable for a man to join a fairly strictly regimented religious institution that involves communal living, restrictions on property ownership, uniforms, and shared religious activities?" is yes.

Also, cowboys and cowgirls are really just a mythologized and stereotyped image of American farm laborers. Anyone can do that.

Likewise, the fact that there are Boy Scouts means that "Girl Scouts" is not an answer to this question unless Girl Scouts are so radically different in nature so as to be considered a fundamentally different experience. I would say that no, while there are minor differences, they are two versions of the same concept, a graduated system of fellowship for the purpose of cultivating outdoor activity that has an extensive and formal system of rewards for various achievements. The fact that Boy Scouts might only have a general sewing merit badge rather than separate dressmaking, lacemaking, embroidery, and knitting badges is a minor detail. If there were simply no concept of a formal outdoorsy organization for boys, then it would count.

Rick Kitchen
11-26-2014, 09:12 PM
Cheerleaders and exotic dancers/strippers are two obvious ones.

There are a lot of male cheerleaders.

There are also a lot of male exotic dancers.

Flywheel
11-26-2014, 09:30 PM
Treasurer of the United States.

dtilque
11-26-2014, 09:38 PM
I asked a fairly similar question (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=569909) several years ago. I didn't get a whole lot of answers different than this thread, although I included Flywheel's answer in my OP.

DinoR
11-26-2014, 09:48 PM
There are a lot of male cheerleaders.

There are also a lot of male exotic dancers.

The limited number of paid positions for cheerleaders for professional sports teams don't have a lot of males. Even at the amateur level they seem to be heavily underrepresented so there's a social pressure argument to me made.

There's significantly fewer positions for male exotic dancers than female. That's more market driven but social pressure about behaviors might indirectly influence that market.

An Gadaí
11-26-2014, 11:09 PM
Primary school teacher is a profession that is about 85% female in Ireland currently. There is no legal restriction on men becoming primary teachers, they just don't, for I would guess a complex set of historical reasons.


From time to time, people fret that too few male primary teachers is leading to boys underachieving at school. I have no clue as to whether there's any truth in this as I haven't researched it but it is something one hears from time time.

rogerbox
11-26-2014, 11:33 PM
Good luck trying to get a nanny position as a male. I'd say there are a lot of childcare positions that a man would face significant discrimination while applying for.

Lamia
11-27-2014, 12:06 AM
The limited number of paid positions for cheerleaders for professional sports teams don't have a lot of males. Even at the amateur level they seem to be heavily underrepresented so there's a social pressure argument to me made.The OP isn't asking about jobs where men are underrepresented, though. He was asking about jobs where legal or social restrictions mean that men are effectively barred. While I'm sure the vast majority of professional cheerleaders in the US are women, the Baltimore Ravens have a co-ed squad that includes a number of men in their stunt team (http://abcnews.go.com/US/photos/cheerleaders-ravens-18303933/image-18306890).

I don't follow cheerleading, but when I was in high school back in the 1990s I was acquainted with a guy who was on the cheerleading squad at another school. It's my recollection that it wasn't that unusual to have a few male cheerleaders on high school or college squads back then, and the university where I work now has several male cheerleaders on its squad.

astro
11-27-2014, 12:11 AM
The OP isn't asking about jobs where men are underrepresented, though. He was asking about jobs where legal or social restrictions mean that men are effectively barred. While I'm sure the vast majority of professional cheerleaders in the US are women, the Baltimore Ravens have a co-ed squad that includes a number of men in their stunt team (http://abcnews.go.com/US/photos/cheerleaders-ravens-18303933/image-18306890).

I don't follow cheerleading, but when I was in high school back in the 1990s I was acquainted with a guy who was on the cheerleading squad at another school. It's my recollection that it wasn't that unusual to have a few male cheerleaders on high school or college squads back then, and the university where I work now has several male cheerleaders on its squad.

In fact George Bush (the younger) was a college cheerleader.

Senegoid
11-27-2014, 12:31 AM
Hooters waitress.

You might be surprised. (http://www.e-manonline.com/images/entry/hootersguy.jpg)

Ambivalid
11-27-2014, 12:33 AM
Could a man sell Mary Kay makeup?

DinoR
11-27-2014, 12:36 AM
The OP isn't asking about jobs where men are underrepresented, though. He was asking about jobs where legal or social restrictions mean that men are effectively barred.
I'd lump it in under his "significant (i.e. non-trivial)" caveat of societal pressure. When I'd heard about Bush's experience it was quite a ways from complimentary.

To-may-to. To-mah-to. Tomatoe is Dan Quayle is reading.

Senegoid
11-27-2014, 12:36 AM
nm

AK84
11-27-2014, 01:14 AM
Good luck trying to get a nanny position as a male. I'd say there are a lot of childcare positions that a man would face significant discrimination while applying for.

For the win. Becoming more and more true.

clairobscur
11-27-2014, 03:42 AM
How does that field work elsewhere in the world? Is it mostly female? Does it exist at all? Is the role taken up by trainee or novice dentists as opposed to forming a separate career path?


It doesn't exist at all over here. Everything is done by the regular dentist.

Similarly, there's no nurse in a private medical practice. Your blood presure, etc.. is taken by the doctor.

Donnerwetter
11-27-2014, 04:27 AM
A couple of years ago, a coworker, who had a little daughter, told me about a male kindergarten teacher at the kindergarten said daughter attended. This young man felt compelled to provide all parents with detailed informations about his personal background and to specifically address the issue of sexual abuse.

I guess the underlying assumption/fear/suspicion/prejudice is that a male who choses a profession in which he works with small children could be a sexual predator and that's probably one of the reasons why there aren't many male kindergarten teachers. I'd also assume that a middle-aged, unmarried man would be virtually unacceptable in this career field.

Mops
11-27-2014, 06:42 AM
One position that comes to mind for me is the post of Gleichstellungsbeauftragte (Commissioner for Gender Equality) in German public institutions (federal, state and municipial public administrations, universities etc.)

The holder of that job is to advocate initiatives for gender equality, be consulted on policies, reorganization, hiring etc. with regard to the gender equality angle. It is full time or part time depending on the size of the administration concerned.

The statutes establishing these posts on the federal level as well as in most states (for state and municipial administrations) mandate that the post is filled by a ballot of the female employees electing one of their number.

Donnerwetter
11-27-2014, 06:54 AM
One position that comes to mind for me is the post of Gleichstellungsbeauftragte (Commissioner for Gender Equality) in German public institutions (federal, state and municipial public administrations, universities etc.)

The holder of that job is to advocate initiatives for gender equality, be consulted on policies, reorganization, hiring etc. with regard to the gender equality angle. It is full time or part time depending on the size of the administration concerned.

The statutes establishing these posts on the federal level as well as in most states (for state and municipial administrations) mandate that the post is filled by a ballot of the female employees electing one of their number.

Not necessarily. The current Gleichstellungsbeauftragter of the University of Leipzig is a man:

http://www.gleichstellung.uni-leipzig.de/ueber-uns/zentral/

(Though looking at the picture of this young man, I wonder if he ever needed to shave :p )

Smeghead
11-27-2014, 06:59 AM
It's ridiculous to call the fact that a man cannot be a we're nurse discrimination.

Anyone who is bitten by a were nurse will turn into a nurse during the full moon, regardless of biological sex.

Mops
11-27-2014, 07:12 AM
Not necessarily. The current Gleichstellungsbeauftragter of the University of Leipzig is a man:

http://www.gleichstellung.uni-leipzig.de/ueber-uns/zentral/

(Though looking at the picture of this young man, I wonder if he ever needed to shave :p )

It seems in Saxony the gender equality commissioner for universities is regulated by university-specific legislation which allows both genders (SächsHSFG § 55). In general public administration men are not allowed, though (SächsFFG § 18). In my state of Baden-Württemberg it seems the Beauftragte für Chancengleichheit (Commissioner for Equality of Opportunity) must be a woman (ChancenG BW § 17)

coremelt
11-27-2014, 07:15 AM
Surrogate mother is another occupation which is of course closed off to men.

RivkahChaya
11-27-2014, 07:16 AM
It's ridiculous to call the fact that a man cannot be a we're nurse discrimination.
That should have been "wet nurse." Actually, a man could induce lactation with medication and a lot of determination, but I doubt any parent would hire him. Not that, in the US, a parent would hire a wet nurse anyway. But I'll bet a milk bank would even turn away his donations.
Treasurer of the United States.That's an interesting one. I read my money too, and I've never seen a man's name in my lifetime, so I looked it up. Only women have served in this position since 1949. It was all men before that, though. The one unusual, and not gender-apparent name on the list, Azie Taylor Morton, was not only a woman, but a black woman who had Deaf parents. She was extremely accomplished, and thus far still the only black person to serve as treasurer. My source is a book published by Gallaudet called Deaf Heritage.

The dental hygienist thing might come from the fact that women tend to have smaller hands, and also tend not to have hair on their knuckles and the backs of their hands, and so they are perceived as more clean, or something (yes, I know they all wear gloves now, but a lot of people grew up with them not wearing gloves). The prejudice is overcome for the actual dentist by the doctor-must-be-man idea, and at any rate, it's the hygienist who actually spends the most time with her hands in your mouth.

Donnerwetter
11-27-2014, 08:20 AM
In Germany, as of 2012, there was only one male midwife (out of 21,000 total), although the profession has been open to men since 1985.

bob++
11-27-2014, 08:31 AM
132 male midwives out of 20,000 in the UK. Strange that, anecdotally, many women who are happy with a male gynecologist prefer a female midwife.

Ethilrist
11-27-2014, 08:43 AM
Makeup models.
Auto show spokesperson.
Person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it.

njtt
11-27-2014, 08:55 AM
Isn't that just another way of saying that we don't criminalise the behaviours that are preferred by women?

A more straightforward, honest way, much less loaded with questionable and idiosyncratic ideological assumptions. Are you suggesting that what is criminalized is completely arbitrary, or that women have much greater control than men do over what sorts of laws get passed?

What are all these behaviors preferred by women that you think ought to be, or even might reasonably be, criminalized (but aren't)? Gossip? Cattiness? Knitting?

Velocity
11-27-2014, 08:59 AM
:dubious:

Or that women are more law abiding, maybe?

Isn't this like saying, "The reason for the lower percentage of white people per capita vs. higher percentage of black people per capita in jail is because black people commit more crime per capita?"

kopek
11-27-2014, 09:36 AM
Not terribly long ago I applied for a couple positions as receptionist for a law firm and in motel housecleaning and was told "we're really looking for a women; men just aren't good at this job". But that could just be me.

davidm
11-27-2014, 10:18 AM
In every place I've ever worked, the human resources person was a woman. I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to their company's "HR man", it's always the "HR woman".

Ramira
11-27-2014, 10:36 AM
Also I believe that in strict Muslim countries a midwife has to be female as an unrelated male is not allowed to touch or see a women even for medical need.

This is Saudi Arabia not even strict countries, it is a Saudi idiocy for the Islam like the Judaism forbids that saving life be impeded by only tradition, it is preservation of life which primes over all. The islamic world does not equal Saudis.

robert_columbia
11-27-2014, 11:04 AM
This is Saudi Arabia not even strict countries, it is a Saudi idiocy for the Islam like the Judaism forbids that saving life be impeded by only tradition, it is preservation of life which primes over all. The islamic world does not equal Saudis.

I am not able to understand this statement. Are you saying that not allowing men to be midwives is a peculiarity of Saudi Arabia that isn't part of most interpretations of Islam?

Bert Nobbins
11-27-2014, 11:12 AM
This gives a summary of primary school teacher male/female ratios around the world:

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.PRM.TCHR.FE.ZS

Note 99% female in Belarus, and 98% female in the Czech Republic. Britain clocks in at 88%. It may not be de jure, but it's certainly de facto.

Given the atmosphere in Britain these days, you aren't going to get many men saying they want to work with children.

Ramira
11-27-2014, 11:41 AM
I am not able to understand this statement. Are you saying that not allowing men to be midwives is a peculiarity of Saudi Arabia that isn't part of most interpretations of Islam?

What I am saying is that this is a Saudi idea, not a general islamic idea. The gynecologist of my sisters in laws are male, etc. etc. This is not unusual anywhere in the arab region, although just like in the west there are many women who prefer women for such care. To have male medical care for women is not haram except to the saudi and the extreme salafine.

The westerners should stop mistaking stories about Saudi arabia for a general idea about islamic practice, they are the ones who are the divergent ones and their practices are not usual, and are makrouh to most people.

panache45
11-27-2014, 12:23 PM
Game show "hostess", like Vanna White.

kstarnes
11-27-2014, 12:57 PM
Sub-par or washed-out male athletes are not allowed to compete in women's professional sports. If they were allowed, they would likely obliterate even the best female competition. It's a protectionist racket (pun intended.) Put the worst male player against the best female player, see what happens.

Ethilrist
11-27-2014, 01:22 PM
Sub-par or washed-out male athletes are not allowed to compete in women's professional sports. If they were allowed, they would likely obliterate even the best female competition. It's a protectionist racket (pun intended.) Put the worst male player against the best female player, see what happens.

Tell Bobby Riggs that.

coremelt
11-27-2014, 01:39 PM
The westerners should stop mistaking stories about Saudi arabia for a general idea about islamic practice, they are the ones who are the divergent ones and their practices are not usual, and are makrouh to most people.

I would like a cite that midwife or gynegologist can be male in Pakistan or Afghanistan. What country are you in?

Ramira
11-27-2014, 02:26 PM
I would like a cite that midwife or gynegologist can be male in Pakistan or Afghanistan.

Where did I speak of Pakistan or Afghanistan? Or is this just the stereotypes as an attempt to hide the fact the claim came from no knowledge?

I am not Pakistani and AK84 can reply better, but it is very trivial for you to see that the national Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Pakistan (SOGP) (http://www.sogp.org/officebeares.html) includes men and women. This is of course typical of the entire Islamic world despite the gross and badly informed stereotypes.

Now what fundamental citations will you give to support the incorrect information you have provided?

Rick Kitchen
11-27-2014, 05:07 PM
I don't follow cheerleading, but when I was in high school back in the 1990s I was acquainted with a guy who was on the cheerleading squad at another school. It's my recollection that it wasn't that unusual to have a few male cheerleaders on high school or college squads back then, and the university where I work now has several male cheerleaders on its squad.

The year after I graduated, the head cheerleader at our high school was a guy.
It was an elected position, like President of the School.

coremelt
11-28-2014, 01:51 AM
Where did I speak of Pakistan or Afghanistan? Or is this just the stereotypes as an attempt to hide the fact the claim came from no knowledge?

Now what fundamental citations will you give to support the incorrect information you have provided?

I said "strict muslim" in my previous post. Sure there may be male Gynaecologists in Karachi, in the modern liberal part of Pakistan but I doubt very much there any in the North West Frontier Provinces.
Are you denying that some muslim fathers would not let their daughters see a male gynaecologist?

Orthodox Judaism also has very strict segregation of the sexes so the same issue would arise there as well.

Steken
11-28-2014, 06:10 AM
132 male midwives out of 20,000 in the UK. Strange that, anecdotally, many women who are happy with a male gynecologist prefer a female midwife.

Apparently, there were male midwives in Britain as early as the 1700's, and a great of hullabaloo about them. It's a big deal in Tristram Shandy - the wife wants a female midwife, the husband wants a male midwife, real-life male midwives are name-dropped, hilarity ensues.

AK84
11-28-2014, 07:23 AM
I said "strict muslim" in my previous post. Sure there may be male Gynaecologists in Karachi, in the modern liberal part of Pakistan but I doubt very much there any in the North West Frontier Provinces.
Are you denying that some muslim fathers would not let their daughters see a male gynaecologist?

Orthodox Judaism also has very strict segregation of the sexes so the same issue would arise there as well.

:rolleyes:

Please stop pulling things out of your ass. For your information, the largest hospital in Peshawar has several male gynae on staff. http://www.lrh.gov.pk/index.php/faculty-members.html

This is a culture where the status of doctors is very high, where what a doctor says is accepted uncritically by patients and family. Male gynae would have no problems.

Nava
11-28-2014, 08:23 AM
What I am saying is that this is a Saudi idea, not a general islamic idea. The gynecologist of my sisters in laws are male, etc. etc. This is not unusual anywhere in the arab region, although just like in the west there are many women who prefer women for such care. To have male medical care for women is not haram except to the saudi and the extreme salafine.

The westerners should stop mistaking stories about Saudi arabia for a general idea about islamic practice, they are the ones who are the divergent ones and their practices are not usual, and are makrouh to most people.

The problem doesn't so much stem from "stories about Saudi arabia" as from immigrant muslim males being cunts about their womens' medical access. Is it yet another case of "one moron being a loud asshole is heard more than a million decent people being silent"? Yes. It's still something which stems from local news, not international ones.

WhyNot
11-28-2014, 08:42 AM
The problem doesn't so much stem from "stories about Saudi arabia" as from immigrant muslim males being cunts about their womens' medical access. Is it yet another case of "one moron being a loud asshole is heard more than a million decent people being silent"? Yes. It's still something which stems from local news, not international ones.

I'd have to agree with this, for the very small sample size identified as "WhyNot's immigrant Muslim patient population." Sample size is roughly 18, over a 3 year span. Every single one was adamant that ALL heath care providers we arranged be women. Home nurse? Not a problem. (That was me.) Home CNA? Yeah, sure, got lots of women, only one man doing that work in our company anyhow, and he is, thankfully, almost always full up with his schedule, so we can accommodate that request without trampling on anti-discrimination issues in the workplace. Physical Therapist? Eeek. They're mostly men in our biz. So, and we'd be SO busted if this were to get out, we often have to delay staffing for almost 2 weeks until a female PT who makes home visits can be found with room in her schedule. Home doctor? Yeah, that we can't make happen. We have to insist that a male doctor go out because we don't know any female home physicians who take Medicare, and the MD name has to be on the visit note, but we have one who can bring a female PA to do the physical exam, and that has mostly worked. Subsequent visits can be done by the (female) PA alone, but one needs to be done by the MD.

We really really want to make our patients comfortable, but there are real legal issues with staffing based on gender.

No one of any other religion in my 3 years of doing this has refused staffing based on gender. So, yes, I do now have something of a prejudice in this area. It was something I never considered before I started seeing Muslim patients. But I do now expect that when we get a referral for an immigrant Muslim woman, we're going to have staffing issues. That's not based on news reports, that's based on an 18/18 track record with my own patients. They're lovely, lovely women, but they're a pain in the butt when it comes to staffing their cases.

robert_columbia
11-28-2014, 10:26 AM
In every place I've ever worked, the human resources person was a woman. I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to their company's "HR man", it's always the "HR woman".

Did you sue their asses? Please tell me you sued them for all they are worth for such obvious and overt discrimination.

Leo Bloom
11-28-2014, 10:26 AM
...
Person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it.
Save me, and SD, from posting the following query, because it won't fit in the hed:

What is the professional title of the person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it?

davidm
11-28-2014, 11:33 AM
Did you sue their asses? Please tell me you sued them for all they are worth for such obvious and overt discrimination.What was the point of this post? People were discussing jobs that have a lack of men and I gave an example.

LionelHutz405
11-28-2014, 11:39 AM
I dunno.
Do a Google image search on 'head of human resources' or similar and it shows a lot of men.

Rick Kitchen
11-28-2014, 04:58 PM
Save me, and SD, from posting the following query, because it won't fit in the hed:

What is the professional title of the person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it?

"Ring girl" is the only term I've ever heard.

Leo Bloom
11-28-2014, 05:19 PM
"Ring girl" is the only term I've ever heard.

:) Thanks.

TheMightyAtlas
11-28-2014, 08:54 PM
Given the atmosphere in Britain these days, you aren't going to get many men saying they want to work with children.

My daughter's school has four third grade sections. 24 students in three sections and 14 in the fourth. Guess which one is the male teacher's? Every year when the class assignments are made there is a push by parents to have their kids moved to one of the female teachers' classes. The school instituted a blanket policy of not reassigning students at parents' request.

By the second week in September, nine of his students had moved to private school. Some of them never showed up for the first day. It's a pattern repeated every year. Fourth grade has fewer students than third or fifth.

He is the only male "home room" teacher. There is a male PE teacher and a male Art teacher. Somehow those are not controversial at all.

I admit that when my daughter goes to fourth grade, if she ends up in the male teachers' class she will likely be in private school as well. My wife ardent feminist that she is, would yank her out.

WhyNot
11-28-2014, 09:08 PM
I admit that when my daughter goes to fourth grade, if she ends up in the male teachers' class she will likely be in private school as well. My wife ardent feminist that she is, would yank her out.

Why? I'm really not trying to start a fight, I just don't get it. My fourth grade teacher was a man. He was my first male teacher for anything, and while I didn't really like him at the time, I respected him. He was really fantastic and firm, with high expectations. It was a real change from our fun, nurturing female teachers in K-3. I learned a lot. This year my daughter's got a male teacher for fourth grade. She's had a couple of men (including this one) in the lower grades, but this is her first man for homeroom. He's, likewise, fantastic. He's more easy going than my teacher was, but his enthusiasm is infectious, and he's holding them to high standards and they're meeting them. Fourth grade was the perfect time - for both her and me - to really buckle down a bit and have experience with a good male role model that wasn't in our family.

Is it really a molestation fear? :( That's so sad. To be honest, I'm more afraid of sexual attention from teachers in high school. Statistically, the chances that she'll have a teacher who's attracted to breasts and hips are far higher than having a pedophile for a teacher. Most men (and some women) are attracted, sexually, to teenaged girls. Very few are sexually attracted to children.

Ramira
11-28-2014, 09:40 PM
I said "strict muslim" in my previous post.

You should have said, 'stereotype of muslims I have


Sure there may be male Gynaecologists in Karachi, in the modern liberal part of Pakistan but I doubt very much there any in the North West Frontier Provinces.

See AK, you are wrong.


Are you denying that some muslim fathers would not let their daughters see a male gynaecologist?

some of anything exists in human practice, but it is not common islamic thinking and it is not a common issue in the islamic world, your stereotypes leaving aside.

You were wrong and conveyed wrong information.

:rolleyes:

Please stop pulling things out of your ass. For your information, the largest hospital in Peshawar has several male gynae on staff. http://www.lrh.gov.pk/index.php/faculty-members.html

This is a culture where the status of doctors is very high, where what a doctor says is accepted uncritically by patients and family. Male gynae would have no problems.

Thank you - and this is the most common attitude.

I It was something I never considered before I started seeing Muslim patients. But I do now expect that when we get a referral for an immigrant Muslim woman, we're going to have staffing issues. That's not based on news reports, that's based on an 18/18 track record with my own patients. They're lovely, lovely women, but they're a pain in the butt when it comes to staffing their cases.

I am sorry. Too often the immigrants come from the most backwards origins and they are often told wrong things when they encounter guidance in these communities.

RivkahChaya
11-28-2014, 09:42 PM
Orthodox Judaism also has very strict segregation of the sexes so the same issue would arise there as well.The prohibition against touching doesn't apply to doctors, nurses, PTs, chiropractors, etc., albeit, when it's not an emergency, a chaperone should be there. I know, because I have lots of orthodox friends, and I worked with an Orthodox group, doing computer work for them, and would stay with a family many weekends when my husband was in Iraq (the social support for them kept me sane, because I was getting really depressed after he'd been gone for about four months). Anyway, I went to appointments a few times with a couple of women. A chaperone can be any woman (although, another Jewish woman is preferred, but sometimes the chaperone is someone who works in the office), or a male relative of the woman who is the patient, such as her husband, brother, adult son, soforth.

This isn't part of pekuach nefesh (if a doctor were to proceed without a chaperone in a true life-saving emergency, that would be pekuach nefesh). The presumption is simply that the medical professional is doing something according to his training, and that doesn't give him a thrill. And then, you have the chaperone, to make sure he stays with the script.

Pekuach nefesh does also allow a lay person to render emergency aid to someone, if the lay person had some training-- I have military training and Red Cross certification, so I could render aid.

TheMightyAtlas
11-28-2014, 09:47 PM
Is it really a molestation fear? :( That's so sad. To be honest, I'm more afraid of sexual attention from teachers in high school. Statistically, the chances that she'll have a teacher who's attracted to breasts and hips are far higher than having a pedophile for a teacher. Most men (and some women) are attracted, sexually, to teenaged girls. Very few are sexually attracted to children.

I think it is, though none of the mothers will come out and say it. They just find it "weird" in some way. This is a very socially and politically liberal town, but also very upper-middle class conventional, if you know what I mean. Many of the mums are stay at home former lawyers, engineers, consultants, etc. I'm a rather involved dad. I'm sure if I volunteered to chaperone a third grade field trip the classroom parent would find a way to exclude me.

SpoilerVirgin
11-28-2014, 10:20 PM
This thread is really eye-opening for me. I grew up in the '70's, and I thought the old stereotypes of certain professions like teacher and nanny being closed to men were dying even back then. I would expect that men in certain professions would be statistically unusual, but it wouldn't even register as strange to me to find out that a teacher or nurse or nanny was male.

I had a male teacher in fifth grade, and I can't remember anyone thinking it was at all unusual. Certainly I was not aware of anyone being pulled from his class. He was just another teacher.

I also hear about male nannies all the time. They even have a name: mannies. Here's an article (http://www.parenting.com/blogs/pop-culture/shawn-parenting/rise-manny) that says that their numbers are on the rise, and that many parents are looking specifically for male nannies.

As for game show spokesmodels, The Price Is Right hired the ridiculously attractive Rob Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Scott_Wilson) as its first male model in 2012.

Shagnasty
11-29-2014, 02:54 AM
I admit that when my daughter goes to fourth grade, if she ends up in the male teachers' class she will likely be in private school as well. My wife ardent feminist that she is, would yank her out.

Color me confused :confused: Is it something he is doing specifically or is it just because he is a male? If it is the former, the concern may be justified but, if it is the latter, there is a name for that type of thought process and it applies at least as well to the situation you described given the facts as any other.

My daughter had her first male teacher last year in 3rd grade and he was great. I never really thought anything of it and I don't think she did either except as a nice change from earlier years. My father taught fourth grade for a few years and then all grades in a juvenile detention center. Nobody ever noted it even in the 70's and we certainly did not live in a progressive area. Where I grew up, we all had male teachers starting in 7th grade at the latest because the sports coaches had to do teaching duty as well and the middle school grades were the ones that they could do most easily. That is the time when the young women are starting to go through puberty and most vulnerable developmentally but I don't know of anything untoward ever happening.

Why would someone go through the expense and hassle of yanking their daughter out of a public school to uproot them over some mysterious fear over having a male teach their daughter unless there are some other facts missing?

RivkahChaya
11-29-2014, 03:56 AM
I went to a Jewish day school from preschool through 2nd grade. The preschool and kindergarten teachers were all women, but the grade school teachers were a mix, and the gym and Hebrew teachers were men. I had a man for a classroom teacher in the second grade.

When I switched to public school, there were no male teachers whatsoever, but then in intermediate school, it was about 1/2 & 1/2. My high school in Indiana was about 1/2 & 1/2 as well.

I'm not sure what kind of background you needed to teach at the Jewish school. It may not have required a degree in elementary ed., just a BA in a relevant subject, like math, one of the sciences, or English, or maybe they hired you first, then asked you to get a degree if they liked you, I don't honestly know.

If I'd gone to the school where no one wanted the male teacher, and he had 14 kids in his class, my parents probably would have taken advantage of the situation by requesting his class, where I'd get more individual attention.

TheMightyAtlas
11-29-2014, 04:36 AM
Several of you have posted that they or their kids had male teachers in elementary school, and no one considered it unusual. From the World Bank cite provided earlier, 13% of primary school teachers in the US are male (assuming this is a binary male-female classification). But when I look at the staff directory of our school system's elementary schools there are 11 male sounding names out of 123 staff. Four are custodians, two are gym teachers, one each music and art, two are special ed assistants and one is a classroom teacher.

I looked at a couple of neighboring towns and found zero and one male classroom teacher (out of 75 and 77). So at least in these tonier suburbs, it's a lot lower than 13% for classroom teachers in elementary schools. My sister used to teach in a much "tougher" school district (40% of kids on free or reduced lunches vs 2-3% in our area) and there seemed to be a lot more male teachers there.

I know two male teachers personally, both teach in inner city schools. I wonder if that is the disconnect. The "nicer" the area, the less acceptance of male teachers?

Another data point, our town was 99% white until the last decade or so. Now it's about 3% Asian, and some folks aren't happy about that "change to our town's character" either. I'm on a couple of town committees, and I've noticed that conciously or unconsciously my nominally progressive neighbors are only slightly less prone to using what I consider coded language that reveals some prejudice against minorities. For example it seems to be completely lost on them that restricting access to affordable housing programs to people "with connections to the town" has a thoroughly discriminatory impact when applied to a town that was almost entirely white, and in fact even now has only a single non-white town employee out of several hundred).

Another data point, with a median household income of over 125k private school is not cost prohibitive for many families. Our own daughter was in private school for KG and first grade, and every year we decide whether she should continue in public school or go back to private.

Bijou Drains
11-29-2014, 03:01 PM
I read about a guy who sold either Avon or MaryKay makeup . He was doing really well too.

Also at the local stores I normally see a few guys working at the MAC makeup counter , don't think I've seen them at other brands .

WhyNot
11-29-2014, 03:27 PM
Nobody ever noted it even in the 70's and we certainly did not live in a progressive area. Where I grew up, we all had male teachers starting in 7th grade at the latest because the sports coaches had to do teaching duty as well and the middle school grades were the ones that they could do most easily.
I really think gender equality in a social sense has backslid since the 70s. Gender roles and fashions are more gender disparate, not less, especially when children are involved.
Several of you have posted that they or their kids had male teachers in elementary school, and no one considered it unusual.
...

I know two male teachers personally, both teach in inner city schools. I wonder if that is the disconnect. The "nicer" the area, the less acceptance of male teachers?

That may be to some degree, but it's not a given. I went to a middle class suburban school; not a wealthy one, most of our parents couldn't have easily afforded private school. Not a really poor one, either. Only a small percent of the students qualified for free or reduced price lunches, for example.

My daughter goes to one of the best of the Chicago Public Schools; more affluent students than most in the district, but the district average is rife with poverty. Many of them could afford private schools, but they've kind of turned this public school into a quasi-private school instead. It's an odd duck. They're technically a CPS magnet school, but many thousands of dollars are raised and donated by the parents each year to provide many more services and classes than the school district will pay for. It's not "inner city"; it's an area of the city that would be socially suburban if there was a little more room between the houses. "Outer city", I guess.

So our two examples are middle of the road - neither rich nor poor. Solid middle class, one suburban, one urban, 40 years apart.

dzeiger
11-29-2014, 05:57 PM
No cite offhand, but I seem to recall that women had better success rates as telemarketers--the disembodied voice trying to tell you things was considered more trustworthy when it was a woman or something like that.

The trope of computer voices being a female voice is probably a form of that as well.

boffking
11-29-2014, 06:48 PM
Everyone keeps saying teacher, but at the high school level and up, science and technology teachers are usually men.

Melbourne
11-30-2014, 05:54 AM
I can't think of anything absolute here. Apart from "promoted because she is sleeping with her manager".

I've been turned down for a job because I wasn't female, but other similar factory work was available in other places at other times. You wouldn't get work as a Receptionist, except you would at a Hotel, and some places have security guards instead of receptionists anyway. And you would get special handling in any child-care situation, particularly with babies -- unless you were a registered nurse in a hospital.

Then there is "Women's Officer", which you definitely would not get -- but you could get "student officer" or chaplain or lawyer or union-rep, which cover the same range of activities.

bibliophage
11-30-2014, 02:21 PM
I've never heard of a male mammography technologist. I'm sure they must exist somewhere, but they must be very rare.

I remember a magazine article from the late 1980s about gender balance in different medical specialties. There were significant numbers of both male and female gynecologists and obstetricians, but at that time there were very few female urologists practicing, as in five or ten in the entire US. I'm sure that has changed by now, but there still can't be very many female urologists.

Ibanez
11-30-2014, 02:29 PM
U.S. Census 2012 Male by sector (https://imgur.com/GSA0iKc)

Musicat
11-30-2014, 02:38 PM
Could a man sell Mary Kay makeup?I did, once. And no, I'm not gay. It was just a job in college.

RivkahChaya
11-30-2014, 02:59 PM
Several of you have posted that they or their kids had male teachers in elementary school, and no one considered it unusual. From the World Bank cite provided earlier, 13% of primary school teachers in the US are male (assuming this is a binary male-female classification). But when I look at the staff directory of our school system's elementary schools there are 11 male sounding names out of 123 staff. Four are custodians, two are gym teachers, one each music and art, two are special ed assistants and one is a classroom teacher.

I looked at a couple of neighboring towns and found zero and one male classroom teacher (out of 75 and 77). So at least in these tonier suburbs, it's a lot lower than 13% for classroom teachers in elementary schools. My sister used to teach in a much "tougher" school district (40% of kids on free or reduced lunches vs 2-3% in our area) and there seemed to be a lot more male teachers there.
I'll bet you have to look at private school to get to the 13%. Aside from some religious schools that segregate by gender, or Catholic schools that have Jesuits teaching, even in the early grades, there is the fact that private schools don't always require a degree in teaching. But on the other hand, they love having people with Ph.D. So a lot of people who get disillusioned with their career path (or were denied tenure) may decide to apply for work teaching at a private school; also, some private school teachers are people who retired from one career and then took up teaching as a second career. A lot of men who put in 20 years in the military and retired are still in their early 50s, and may spend the next ten years teaching at a military academy, and some professors might even decide to teach children after retiring from being college professors-- it's not unheard of.

Those places are probably where the 13% are.

Mijin
11-30-2014, 04:01 PM
Secretary: (I have an anecdote about this, but I posted it the last time this topic came up, can't be arsed to dupe it)

Flatmate: You'll see a lot more ads that specify women only than men only.

I'm living in china right now, and I've seen some job ads that say women only but never men only. However, it's also the case that people can be told outright that they are too old, should or should not be married by now etc. Basically there's still a lot of discrimination in every direction.

Shagnasty
11-30-2014, 04:10 PM
Several of you have posted that they or their kids had male teachers in elementary school, and no one considered it unusual. From the World Bank cite provided earlier, 13% of primary school teachers in the US are male (assuming this is a binary male-female classification). But when I look at the staff directory of our school system's elementary schools there are 11 male sounding names out of 123 staff. Four are custodians, two are gym teachers, one each music and art, two are special ed assistants and one is a classroom teacher.

I looked at a couple of neighboring towns and found zero and one male classroom teacher (out of 75 and 77). So at least in these tonier suburbs, it's a lot lower than 13% for classroom teachers in elementary schools. My sister used to teach in a much "tougher" school district (40% of kids on free or reduced lunches vs 2-3% in our area) and there seemed to be a lot more male teachers there.

I know two male teachers personally, both teach in inner city schools. I wonder if that is the disconnect. The "nicer" the area, the less acceptance of male teachers?

My daughter's third grade male teacher was in her definitely affluent public school and I never heard anyone show any concern about his sex. The only unusual fact is that she is an a very rare public school French immersion program and all of her teachers have to be fully bi-lingual in French and English in addition to all of the other standard requirements. That greatly limits how many unofficial discriminatory criteria the school can use to limit those positions to females. I am glad they didn't because he has been her favorite teacher by far and she told him so in a nice little note at the end of the year. She actually cried after her last day in his class.

I am not being willfully obtuse but I still can't understand why you are so strongly opposed to having a male teacher for your daughter. I assume it is some type of unspoken molestation fear but I don't think that is justified. Even if it is a risk, you can't avoid it completely just by making sure she always has female teachers. Almost all elementary schools have male employees in other positions with access to kids and, of course, it is completely possible for female teachers to engage in various forms of abuse themselves.

Ulfreida
11-30-2014, 04:27 PM
Two differences I can think of from the 1970's (really, late '70's to early 80's): first, the oddly common assumption by many who did not grow up then that the gender equality battle has been won. Hence the retrogressive slide.

Second, fear. Only unusually paranoid parents had the degree of fear about their children then, that is now culturally enforced. This explains a lot of of the prejudice against males caring for or teaching children.

Both ideas stalwartly resist the verifiable facts, but no one should be surprised at that.

Princhester
11-30-2014, 05:02 PM
Person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it.

There's a music quiz show in Australia called RockKwiz in which the compere is female and the person who parades about under-dressed holding up the scores is male.

'Course, it's not really a good counter example since the whole point is that the show has its tongue firmly in its cheek.

Senegoid
11-30-2014, 05:13 PM
Is it really a molestation fear? :( That's so sad. To be honest, I'm more afraid of sexual attention from teachers in high school. Statistically, the chances that she'll have a teacher who's attracted to breasts and hips are far higher than having a pedophile for a teacher. Most men (and some women) are attracted, sexually, to teenaged girls. Very few are sexually attracted to children.

(Bold added.)

I find that statement disturbing and questionable. Can you provide some support for this?

njtt
11-30-2014, 05:22 PM
(Bold added.)

I find that statement disturbing and questionable. Can you provide some support for this?

I find it strange (and somewhat disturbing) that you find it in the least questionable.

TheMightyAtlas
11-30-2014, 05:28 PM
I am not being willfully obtuse but I still can't understand why you are so strongly opposed to having a male teacher for your daughter. I assume it is some type of unspoken molestation fear but I don't think that is justified. Even if it is a risk, you can't avoid it completely just by making sure she always has female teachers. Almost all elementary schools have male employees in other positions with access to kids and, of course, it is completely possible for female teachers to engage in various forms of abuse themselves.

I'm not opposed to it in the least, but my wife is. She in turn is taking her cues from the other parents who are long term residents of this town (we've only been here two years). I really don't know why it is. If anyone has any specific concerns about molestation, they aren't going to talk about it to "outsiders" like us. What my wife sees is people shelling out $25k to avoid this teacher, and concluding there must be something wrong, no smoke without fire.

I was talking to a mother whose daughter is now in high school, and the same thing was happening right years ago when she was in third grade. Same teacher, but in those days the school would move kids around at parents' request, so the male teacher would get a normal sized class of students whose parents didn't specifically request a teacher.

Nobody will even say he is a bad teacher, which would be the simplest expectation. A couple of moms have said that it seems weird that a man would choose this profession.

Jragon
11-30-2014, 05:34 PM
I'm not opposed to it in the least, but my wife is. She in turn is taking her cues from the other parents who are long term residents of this town (we've only been here two years). I really don't know why it is. If anyone has any specific concerns about molestation, they aren't going to talk about it to "outsiders" like us. What my wife sees is people shelling out $25k to avoid this teacher, and concluding there must be something wrong, no smoke without fire.

I was talking to a mother whose daughter is now in high school, and the same thing was happening right years ago when she was in third grade. Same teacher, but in those days the school would move kids around at parents' request, so the male teacher would get a normal sized class of students whose parents didn't specifically request a teacher.

Nobody will even say he is a bad teacher, which would be the simplest expectation. A couple of moms have said that it seems weird that a man would choose this profession.

This is a case where it's hard to tell. It's entirely plausible that something happened with him specifically, that went legally unreported, that everyone knows about but doesn't talk about. It's also entirely plausible that through some stupid game of telephone everyone condemned him based on vague hearsay and paranoia.

It would be easier to tell if there was another elementary male teacher and whether everyone is avoiding him or not.

TheMightyAtlas
11-30-2014, 05:53 PM
I'll bet you have to look at private school to get to the 13%. Aside from some religious schools that segregate by gender, or Catholic schools that have Jesuits teaching, even in the early grades, there is the fact that private schools don't always require a degree in teaching. But on the other hand, they love having people with Ph.D. So a lot of people who get disillusioned with their career path (or were denied tenure) may decide to apply for work teaching at a private school; also, some private school teachers are people who retired from one career and then took up teaching as a second career. A lot of men who put in 20 years in the military and retired are still in their early 50s, and may spend the next ten years teaching at a military academy, and some professors might even decide to teach children after retiring from being college professors-- it's not unheard of.

Those places are probably where the 13% are.
I don't think these would be primary school teachers. My mother was a private school administrator for 25 years. All either K-5 or K-8 schools. She says she'd be surprised if the number was over 5%. But again, she's not including specialists, music, gym, art, technology, special ed, etc. The ratio seems higher there. When she hears teacher, she thinks classroom teacher. That's where the number of male teachers is vanishingly small, I bet.

WhyNot
11-30-2014, 06:20 PM
(Bold added.)

I find that statement disturbing and questionable. Can you provide some support for this?

It fell so squarely under the umbrella of Common Knowledge that I didn't think I needed to cite my source. I'm not entirely sure how to.

I could start, I suppose, by pointing out that pedophilia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia)is a recognized psychiatric disorder and ephebophilia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia)is not.

Or that a multitude of "countdown" pages exist for teenaged movie stars, where people who have no social or legal pressure not to are clearly comfortable expressing sexual interest in teenagers, while acknowledging the legal bar to actual contact until they come of age.

Or I could point out how many jokes there are out there about giving men warnings that "she's only 15" - not reactions of disgust that they are attracted to 15 year olds, but warnings that, despite the girl's mature body, she's "jailbait".

I could mention the successful pornography career of Tracy Lords, and I'm sure many other pornography actors, which began when she was of an age to be in high school.

What kind of support are you looking for?

Zsofia
11-30-2014, 10:08 PM
I really think gender equality in a social sense has backslid since the 70s. Gender roles and fashions are more gender disparate, not less, especially when children are involved.


Not just in gender. Race also - blaxploitation movies might have been "exploitative" but they also gave a lot meatier roles to actors of color who can't find them now.

As a librarian I can tell you that men who want to do children's services (not teens - lots of guybrarians there) are looked at with a serious sideye. Not just by patrons but by staff.

bengangmo
11-30-2014, 10:32 PM
Primary school teacher is a profession that is about 85% female in Ireland currently. There is no legal restriction on men becoming primary teachers, they just don't, for I would guess a complex set of historical reasons.


From time to time, people fret that too few male primary teachers is leading to boys underachieving at school. I have no clue as to whether there's any truth in this as I haven't researched it but it is something one hears from time time.

Yeah there is a lot of research on the subject, and it is considered a very real and verifiable problem.

At the Pre-School level it's even worse. Round here, a male kindergarten teacher is virtually unheard of

EdwinAmi
12-01-2014, 01:19 AM
tampon tester?

casdave
12-01-2014, 04:32 AM
I do now that under the EU Equalities directive, there are some roles that are exempted from certain types of discrimination, bit it age, disability, religion and of course gender.

These are jobs that specifically require either certain abilities or values.

For sexual and domestic violence counselling, gender discrimination is legal, or for care workers of vulnerable groups.

At one time I remember the issue of Muslim driving instructors - this turned on Muslim women could not be alone in the presence of an unknown male.

These are not necessarily industry wide discrimination, there are male equivalents.

I know that you do not see many female electricians, or female miners - but you also don't see many male seamsters, yet there are plenty of male tailors.

Ethilrist
12-01-2014, 07:22 AM
tampon tester?

Tampon spokesperson on TV commercials.

TheMightyAtlas
04-02-2015, 10:47 AM
This is a case where it's hard to tell. It's entirely plausible that something happened with him specifically, that went legally unreported, that everyone knows about but doesn't talk about. It's also entirely plausible that through some stupid game of telephone everyone condemned him based on vague hearsay and paranoia.

It would be easier to tell if there was another elementary male teacher and whether everyone is avoiding him or not.

Reviving this to post an update.

I don't know if this link will work, but there has been an incident in a neighboring town that has somehow cemented my wife's determination not to let my daughter go into the male 4th grade teacher's class. Totally illogical. Totally predictable.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/01/bridgewater-state-student-charged-with-sexually-abusing-children-campus-day-care-center/7cBatpLxGPdQtw4IKWCXjM/story.html

Jackmannii
04-02-2015, 11:07 AM
Not everyone knows this, but Jay Gordon M.D. (pediatrician to Jenny McCarthy's kid and notorious antivaxer) is an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant.

That's a heavily female-dominated field for some reason, but Jay just oozes...sincerity.

JoshuaSD
04-02-2015, 11:32 AM
Sub-par or washed-out male athletes are not allowed to compete in women's professional sports. If they were allowed, they would likely obliterate even the best female competition. It's a protectionist racket (pun intended.) Put the worst male player against the best female player, see what happens.

Tell Bobby Riggs that.

Thank you!

Ethilrist
04-02-2015, 02:16 PM
Slayer.

DrDeth
04-02-2015, 03:08 PM
The prison population is overwhelmingly male. Which suggests either that males are sentenced more severely, or that the forms of social deviance in which women tend to engage are less likely to be criminalised or, if criminalised, are less likely to attract a custodial sentence.

Or that society has decided that Men must be the breadwinners and men turn to crime to support their family. But of course, males are sentenced more severely. And when men get angry and attack, they are much lore likely to do significant or deadly damage, and thus go to prison.

DrDeth
04-02-2015, 03:12 PM
Treasurer of the United States.

This is not true.

DrDeth
04-02-2015, 03:15 PM
For example, are there any professions that are, by law, limited to women in any jurisdiction, especially a western one? Are there any countries where men are not allowed to be practicing midwives, nurses, elementary school teachers, or flight attendants, or where the social barriers to entry are so overwhelming that one can clearly identify a significant de facto ban (not just a little social awkwardness, but enough pressure to dissuade most men from trying)?

Other than social barriers (and of course Midwife, nanny, baysitter, etc fall into that for men) what professions are, by law, limited to men in any jurisdiction, especially a western one?

Sage Rat
04-02-2015, 03:26 PM
It's unlikely that there will be a male miko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko) anytime soon.

DrDeth
04-02-2015, 03:39 PM
(Bold added.)

I find that statement disturbing and questionable. Can you provide some support for this?

18 and 19 are "teen aged" are they not?

Voyager
04-02-2015, 04:27 PM
I also hear about male nannies all the time. They even have a name: mannies. Here's an article (http://www.parenting.com/blogs/pop-culture/shawn-parenting/rise-manny) that says that their numbers are on the rise, and that many parents are looking specifically for male nannies.

My wife taught at a nanny school for a while, and did housing, and there was one male nanny, who boarded with us. He graduated and did not have any trouble finding a job.

My brother for some reason known only to him majored in family planning in college. His job search did not go well. Fortunately he is also a good mechanic, which is what he did until he got into IT.

jezzaOZ
04-02-2015, 04:36 PM
It's not universal but call-centre operators are mostly women or gay men.

I worked at one Telco where the Human Resources lady had a policy where she would only hire woman and gay men unless she had no other choice. I think the theory was they were more empathetic with customers.

Really Not All That Bright
04-02-2015, 05:06 PM
Reviving this to post an update.

I don't know if this link will work, but there has been an incident in a neighboring town that has somehow cemented my wife's determination not to let my daughter go into the male 4th grade teacher's class. Totally illogical. Totally predictable.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/01/bridgewater-state-student-charged-with-sexually-abusing-children-campus-day-care-center/7cBatpLxGPdQtw4IKWCXjM/story.html
Have you tried pointing out that he's accused of sexually assaulting male children?

GreenElf
04-02-2015, 05:53 PM
Has masseuse already been mentioned? It's a mainly female occupation here in the US. Also, NFL sideline reporters are all female as far as I know. There's some stores that hire mostly women such as Hallmark, Baskin & Robbins and the shopping mall corn dog chains with employees wearing the ridiculous tall hats.

Kimstu
04-02-2015, 05:54 PM
Have you tried pointing out that he's accused of sexually assaulting male children?

Hard to imagine that any parents would really want their daughter taught by a teacher who assaults her male classmates, though. Doesn't sound like a good environment for anybody involved.

TheMightyAtlas
04-03-2015, 06:00 AM
Have you tried pointing out that he's accused of sexually assaulting male children?

Are you serious?

These women are up in arms because we've had a few cases of male teachers, male day care attendants and male priests sexually abusing kids in the last few years I this small geographic area (South Shore of Greater Boston). And zero reported cases of female abusers (at least ones that made news headlines). The proportion of men in these professions that have access to young children (preschool teachers, elementary school teachers, Sunday school teachers) in the first place is vanishingly small. They react by pulling their kids out of catholic schools, CCD classes and school class sections with male teachers. My point was that this may be painting male teachers with an unfairly broad brush.

And I'm going to lead with my chin by pointing out that we have nothing to worry about, because Mr. Abc, even if he is a potential or actual child sex abuser, probably would prefer boys? So our little girl is probably safe?

JustinC
04-03-2015, 06:53 AM
First Lady.

Ethilrist
04-05-2015, 08:01 AM
First Lady.

Yeah, but that's just a terminology thing, like saying a guy can't be Queen. He can still have the job, he'd just be King. In the case of First Lady, if Hillary's elected, Bill will be First Lord.

Or, you know, something else. But he'll be doing the same job.

DrDeth
04-05-2015, 04:11 PM
Yeah, but that's just a terminology thing, like saying a guy can't be Queen. He can still have the job, he'd just be King. In the case of First Lady, if Hillary's elected, Bill will be First Lord.

Or, you know, something else. But he'll be doing the same job.

First Dude.

Fiveyearlurker
04-05-2015, 08:46 PM
There is a newish cab company like uber but for driving your kids around called shuddle (http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/02/15/shuddle-offers-ride-hailing-for-children/23263045/). They don't explicitly ban male drivers, but so far their hundreds of drivers all happen to be women.

Really Not All That Bright
04-06-2015, 10:26 AM
Hard to imagine that any parents would really want their daughter taught by a teacher who assaults her male classmates, though. Doesn't sound like a good environment for anybody involved.
That guy's not at the same school.
... I'm going to lead with my chin by pointing out that we have nothing to worry about, because Mr. Abc, even if he is a potential or actual child sex abuser, probably would prefer boys? So our little girl is probably safe?
Just throwing it out there. :(

robert_columbia
04-06-2015, 12:15 PM
Yeah there is a lot of research on the subject, and it is considered a very real and verifiable problem.

At the Pre-School level it's even worse. Round here, a male kindergarten teacher is virtually unheard of

How easy is it, in general, for men to become primary school teachers? I used to know a guy in college (here in the US) who was in, or at least considering applying for, a teacher preparation program here. He had mentioned that US programs often actually give men an advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action) in the process of applying and that he was hoping to take advantage of that.

For those who have experienced teacher preparation programs (in any jurisdiction), is that actually true in a meaningful sense? E.g. will they take men with lower test scores, etc. as long as they pass the background check? E.g. "He almost failed the teacher exams, his GPA is marginal at best, but he doesn't have any sexual convictions. Bring him on!"

Velocity
04-06-2015, 12:18 PM
It's not universal but call-centre operators are mostly women or gay men.

I worked at one Telco where the Human Resources lady had a policy where she would only hire woman and gay men unless she had no other choice. I think the theory was they were more empathetic with customers.

Is this not grounds for a lawsuit?

Really Not All That Bright
04-06-2015, 01:29 PM
In the US, yes. Not sure about the gay part but telemarketers in the US are much more likely to be female (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm).

purplehorseshoe
04-06-2015, 02:18 PM
Is this not grounds for a lawsuit?

Only if it's provable in a court of law.

Really Not All That Bright
04-06-2015, 02:59 PM
That is true of any set of actionable facts.

LSLGuy
04-06-2015, 04:29 PM
How easy is it, in general, for men to become primary school teachers? I used to know a guy in college (here in the US) who was in, or at least considering applying for, a teacher preparation program here. He had mentioned that US programs often actually give men an advantage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action) in the process of applying and that he was hoping to take advantage of that.

For those who have experienced teacher preparation programs (in any jurisdiction), is that actually true in a meaningful sense? E.g. will they take men with lower test scores, etc. as long as they pass the background check? E.g. "He almost failed the teacher exams, his GPA is marginal at best, but he doesn't have any sexual convictions. Bring him on!"Here's a recent thread on job availability for teachers. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=751061 . See my post #13 & subsequent. IMO/IME it's not easy for men to get those jobs; in fact it borders on impossible.

Jesta
04-07-2015, 03:21 AM
Apparently a male can't be a women's officer either, from a local newspaper today...

"AN online petition calling on a male women’s officer at the University of Tasmania to resign or be disqualified has gathered more than 800 names."

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/petition-wants-male-uni-student-removed-from-elected-role-as-womens-officer/story-fnj4f7k1-1227294363861

JustinC
04-07-2015, 05:42 AM
First Dude.

First Not the Booze-swilling Lech That he Appeared to be, But Later On and Given the Chance He Was Up Her Skirt Like a Rat Up a Drainpipe. :p

LSLGuy
04-07-2015, 07:03 AM
First Lad in other words.

Ethilrist
04-07-2015, 07:12 AM
First Bubba.

Jman
04-07-2015, 12:20 PM
I had a male teacher for 2nd grade, and I thought he was awesome. My daughter is in 1st Grade right now, and has a male teacher. He is also awesome. She loves being in his class, we enjoy our discussions with him, and he seems to focus on all the right stuff. The thought of 'oh no he's a guy' has honestly never crossed my mind in the way that some of the posts here are saying is common. That's so sad.

I understand, though. I'm a guy who loves spending time with my own kids and have always been good with small children (playing with my cousins when they were young, and now when we're at a friend's house, I'll get down and play with my daughter and son and their kids, and we all have a great time, whether it's building legos, pretending to fight dragons, or what have you. In public, if I see a kid doing something fun or cute, I'll smile because it's fun and cute, but I am aware that publicly displaying said 'kid-friendliness' gets odd glances, and it's quite sad that being friendly is often seen as sinister nowadays.

TheMightyAtlas
06-25-2015, 05:07 PM
This is a case where it's hard to tell. It's entirely plausible that something happened with him specifically, that went legally unreported, that everyone knows about but doesn't talk about. It's also entirely plausible that through some stupid game of telephone everyone condemned him based on vague hearsay and paranoia.

It would be easier to tell if there was another elementary male teacher and whether everyone is avoiding him or not.

And here we go. The school has hired another 4th grade male teacher. Classroom assignments were announced today at 9am. At 3pm an email was sent reiterating that no classroom assignment changes would be entertained under any circumstances.

Our daughter was assigned to the new male teacher's classroom. My wife has already announced that she's going back to work, if that is what it takes to afford private school. I'm trying to talk her out of it, but the mom-o-sphere has exploded.

WhyNot
06-25-2015, 06:07 PM
And here we go. The school has hired another 4th grade male teacher. Classroom assignments were announced today at 9am. At 3pm an email was sent reiterating that no classroom assignment changes would be entertained under any circumstances.

Our daughter was assigned to the new male teacher's classroom. My wife has already announced that she's going back to work, if that is what it takes to afford private school. I'm trying to talk her out of it, but the mom-o-sphere has exploded.

Ugh. Meanwhile, my daughter just finished fourth grade, where the entire class advanced at least a grade level and a half in math and two grade levels in reading/writing, and the students stood in a group hug out on the playground on the last day of school crying real tears and begging Mr. ____ to teach fifth grade next year because he's "the best teacher we've ever had!" :(

I'm sorry your community is full of asshats.

BigT
06-25-2015, 06:23 PM
And here we go. The school has hired another 4th grade male teacher. Classroom assignments were announced today at 9am. At 3pm an email was sent reiterating that no classroom assignment changes would be entertained under any circumstances.

Our daughter was assigned to the new male teacher's classroom. My wife has already announced that she's going back to work, if that is what it takes to afford private school. I'm trying to talk her out of it, but the mom-o-sphere has exploded.

I almost hate to ask this, but have you tried pointing out that she's committing bigotry? Or, if she's one of those misandrist feminists who is okay with that, she's falling for gender roles set up by the patriarchy--the ones that men are "dangerous" and women are "safe"? Or that she's giving men's rights activists legitimacy? Or that she herself is adhering to gender roles of allowing logic to be overridden with emotion?

It boggles my mind that anyone who calls themselves a feminist could in any way support sexual discrimination.

Shagnasty
06-25-2015, 06:51 PM
And here we go. The school has hired another 4th grade male teacher. Classroom assignments were announced today at 9am. At 3pm an email was sent reiterating that no classroom assignment changes would be entertained under any circumstances.

Our daughter was assigned to the new male teacher's classroom. My wife has already announced that she's going back to work, if that is what it takes to afford private school. I'm trying to talk her out of it, but the mom-o-sphere has exploded.

That is both sad and unjust. If I were in your place, I would firmly put my foot down over this nonsense your wife is advocating. You are your daughter's parent too and re-arranging your whole family's life just to avoid male teachers is both bigoted and unreasonable.

Aspidistra
06-26-2015, 04:09 AM
Ugh. Meanwhile, my daughter just finished fourth grade, where the entire class advanced at least a grade level and a half in math and two grade levels in reading/writing, and the students stood in a group hug out on the playground on the last day of school crying real tears and begging Mr. ____ to teach fifth grade next year because he's "the best teacher we've ever had!" :(

I'm sorry your community is full of asshats.

It's just crazy isn't it?

Out of the various - not numerous, but a steady trickle - male primary teachers and childcare workers my kids have had over the years, I can't think of one who wasn't excellent. 'Cause, you know, any man who's going to go into the field is doing it because he's really passionate about it.

Any bloke walks up to a sandpit-full of three-year-olds, my experience is that he'll be absolutely mobbed. And not just by the little boys. They're absolutely hungry for male input - because guys do play differently and do things differently than women, and kids sense that. It's so sad that we're missing out on that just because society is crazy-paranoid.

SciFiSam
06-26-2015, 05:30 AM
And here we go. The school has hired another 4th grade male teacher. Classroom assignments were announced today at 9am. At 3pm an email was sent reiterating that no classroom assignment changes would be entertained under any circumstances.

Our daughter was assigned to the new male teacher's classroom. My wife has already announced that she's going back to work, if that is what it takes to afford private school. I'm trying to talk her out of it, but the mom-o-sphere has exploded.

Would it be possible for you to start a new thread asking about this, and let your wife see it and the responses? Compose the thread OP with her there to make sure you give both sides.

I know a few male primary school teachers and my daughter's had a couple. There were a few at my school when I was little - it wasn't unusual at all back then, strangely. They are rare now; obviously there's no legal prohibition to them getting that job, but some of them find it difficult or encounter problems at work that female teachers don't.

One of my male primary school teacher friends heads a male primary school teacher help group; the same is not necessary for female primary school teachers.

Weirdly secondary school (from age 11) is much more balanced. The kids are still kids, though, especially the younger ones.

panache45
06-26-2015, 05:49 AM
My 3rd grade teacher was male. And this was way back in the 50s.

elfkin477
06-26-2015, 06:12 AM
Or that society has decided that Men must be the breadwinners and men turn to crime to support their family. But of course, males are sentenced more severely. And when men get angry and attack, they are much lore likely to do significant or deadly damage, and thus go to prison.
What about the men who commit crimes that have nothing to do with supporting their families? I could be off base but I doubt a significant amount of men in prison are there solely because they took illegal actions to help their families.

Your Great Darsh Face
06-26-2015, 07:52 AM
Thank you!

Riggs hosed Margaret Court, though - then top female in the world.

#andanotherthing

Fotheringay-Phipps
06-26-2015, 08:37 AM
What about the men who commit crimes that have nothing to do with supporting their families? I could be off base but I doubt a significant amount of men in prison are there solely because they took illegal actions to help their families.Looking at it more broadly, society has decided that the value of men is based to a large degree on how successful they are in acquiring material things. This pressures men to take extreme measures to accomplish this, whether on behalf of their family or otherwise. Women don't face similar social pressures in this area.

astorian
06-26-2015, 08:52 AM
There are a lot of male cheerleaders.

There are also a lot of male exotic dancers.

Absolutely true- but while there are male cheerleaders on most college sidelines, you can bet the Dallas Cowboys will never hire any male cheerleaders.

And while there are male strippers/exotic dancers, they would never be hired at clubs that cater to hetero males.

iiandyiiii
06-26-2015, 10:38 AM
Absolutely true- but while there are male cheerleaders on most college sidelines, you can bet the Dallas Cowboys will never hire any male cheerleaders.

The Saints had male cheerleaders in the 80s (and maybe more recently), from my memory of attending games as a child.

Saint Cad
06-26-2015, 12:11 PM
As far as most family court judges are concerned - single parent.

even sven
06-26-2015, 12:44 PM
As far as most family court judges are concerned - single parent.


Cite?

The vast majority of states default to joint custody when custody is contested. I actually know three men right now who have sole custody.

Fotheringay-Phipps
06-26-2015, 12:49 PM
Cite?

The vast majority of states default to joint custody when custody is contested. I actually know three men right now who have sole custody.I think you need to distinguish between joint legal custody and joint physical custody.

Really Not All That Bright
06-26-2015, 12:53 PM
Huh? If there's one sure-fire way to get a family law judge on your side it's for the other side to fail to comply with time-sharing or other court orders.

Fotheringay-Phipps
06-26-2015, 01:00 PM
You may be unfamiliar with these; they are legal terms. :)

See e.g. http://www.divorcenet.com/resources/divorce/divorce-and-children/legal-and-physical-custody-children

even sven
06-26-2015, 01:40 PM
I think you need to distinguish between joint legal custody and joint physical custody.


Can you kindly provide a citation that in cases where custody is disputed and where the father has spent equal or more time than the mother providing childcare that sole custody of any sort is regularly granted to the mother?

Fotheringay-Phipps
06-26-2015, 01:42 PM
No.

OTOH I've not made that claim, so there's no need to cite it.

Saint Cad
06-27-2015, 04:45 PM
Cite? How about this? (http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf)
Mothers are more than four times more likely to get sole physical custody than the father.

ZipperJJ
06-27-2015, 05:10 PM
My 3rd grade teacher was male. And this was way back in the 50s.


And now you're gay. Mhmmmmm.....

;)

even sven
06-27-2015, 05:30 PM
Cite? How about this? (http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf)
Mothers are more than four times more likely to get sole physical custody than the father.


Mothers are more than four times likely to HAVE physical custody. But that doesn't mean they are four times more likely to be awarded physical custody in contested cases where the father has a credible claim. I'm not counting cases where the father did not ask for custody to begin with, nor cases where the father did not serve as a primary caregiver and is not awarded custody on that basis. What I want to see is contested cases where the man does not get custody soley because he is a man.

You'll note that 1 in 6 custodial parents is male. That, to me, seems to point to the fact that courts don't just routinely bar fathers from having custody.

GreenElf
06-27-2015, 05:32 PM
Mammographer and masseuse have already been mentioned. There's also certain retail stores that hire mainly females such as lingerie shops, Dairy Queen, and Baskin Robbins. Also, most babysitters are female, and some people insist on a female piano teacher for their children.

WhyNot
06-27-2015, 07:06 PM
"Masseuse" isn't remotely true. 16-17% of the membership in the two largest massage therapy professional organizations are men. http://www.massagetherapy.com/articles/index.php/article_id/726/Male-Bodyworker-Issues

ZipperJJ
06-27-2015, 07:14 PM
I have 3 friends who graduated from massage school a few years ago. Two are men, one is a woman.

IIRC their classes were fairly mixed, gender-wise.

WhyNot
06-28-2015, 06:25 AM
I have 3 friends who graduated from massage school a few years ago. Two are men, one is a woman.

IIRC their classes were fairly mixed, gender-wise.
We had more men than women in my massage class 10 years ago, by about that same ratio. I suspect, for whatever reason, that men are less likely to join the (completely voluntary) professional organizations of that industry, and are underrepresented in those numbers.

But even if not, even if your friends and my class where unusually high in men, it's still clearly not a career closed to men. Given the Hollywood portrayals of the hunky male massage therapists working on bored rich housewives, I'm not sure where the idea came from that men don't do that job.

apollonia
06-28-2015, 08:24 AM
Why on earth would ice-cream places have majority female staff? Every DQ I've ever been to across several states and provinces has both male and female staff, and the one closest to me now has almost all young men working there.

watchwolf49
06-28-2015, 08:51 AM
Cite?

The vast majority of states default to joint custody when custody is contested. I actually know three men right now who have sole custody.

I was granted sole custody of my kids in a contested divorce ... back in 1994 !!! The judge determined that both parents were of equal capability but I had temporary custody, the judge didn't want to move the kids around.

It was amazing ... all of society begged and graveled at my feet ... my every mis-step, treason or high crime was quickly forgiven ...

One female HR director "A single father of three, well if anyone needs a $25 an hour job, it's YOU ... can you start tomorrow?"

Nava
06-28-2015, 09:32 AM
Ugh. Meanwhile, my daughter just finished fourth grade, where the entire class advanced at least a grade level and a half in math and two grade levels in reading/writing, and the students stood in a group hug out on the playground on the last day of school crying real tears and begging Mr. ____ to teach fifth grade next year because he's "the best teacher we've ever had!" :(

I'm sorry your community is full of asshats.

My nephew has just finished 3rd grade; their main teacher (homeroom teacher I think would be the name in the US?) was a dude with a degree in Phys Ed. Kid wrote him a rap - I haven't heard the whole thing and doubt I'd be able to do so with a straight face, but according to two separate sources, there was a bit along the lines of "if I could I'd stay with you until I left for college".

He and his sister happened to have the same preschool teacher: the teachers stay with the class for all three years of preschool, and the kids are three years apart. Both love the hell out of Carlos. The parents love the hell out of Carlos. The aunts and uncles and grandparents love the hell out of Carlos. I think the only one who complains about Carlos sometimes is Carlos' mother, who considers his wife doesn't feed him enough...

watchwolf49
06-28-2015, 01:52 PM
I would like to believe that supervising the girl's shower room at the high school gym would be restricted to women only ... there's no biological reason a man couldn't do this job as well if not better than a woman

WhyNot
06-28-2015, 02:04 PM
I would like to believe that supervising the girl's shower room at the high school gym would be restricted to women only ... there's no biological reason a man couldn't do this job as well if not better than a woman
My high school gym teacher was a lesbian. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but if your motivation is to keep leering adults away from nubile young women, restricting jobs by gender is not going to work real well.

Senegoid
06-28-2015, 07:47 PM
But even if not, even if your friends and my class where unusually high in men, it's still clearly not a career closed to men. Given the Hollywood portrayals of the hunky male massage therapists working on bored rich housewives, I'm not sure where the idea came from that men don't do that job.

It comes from the reality that In Real Life, relatively few females and relatively few straight males care to have a hunky male man-handling their precious bodies. Unless, of course, said male is a friend or lover (obviously), or sufficiently young and gorgeous.

I am a CMT, although I didn't get much into the paid professional biz, but I hovered around the fringes for a while. (And yes, I joined one of those professional organizations.) I knew another middle-aged couple who were both in the business (one of them did Watsu). This was in Sonoma County, adjacent to Napa County, two hotbeds of day spas, mud baths, massage, and general bodily hedonism. He claimed that only the young gorgeous female bods and male hunks could actually get work in the spas all around there. (AND that the spa owners routinely stole all their tips.)

It seemed true from what I could tell. For the most part, only gay men wanted male masseurs massaging them. A few women around seemed to like having sufficiently gorgeous young male hunks massaging them.

ETA: The class I took, a professional class that supplied practitioners to spas all around the Sonoma/Napa/Calistoga area, had 17 students, of which only 4 were male. The chief instructor (an older female who had been in the biz for umpty-ump years) remarked that it was rare to have more than one male, if any, in a class. The females in the class were conspicuously unenthusiastic about pairing up with a male for the practice sessions, except for two of them that worked with the males a lot and seemed comfortable with that. And this was in a supervised classroom setting!

Senegoid
06-28-2015, 07:59 PM
My high school gym teacher was a lesbian. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but if your motivation is to keep leering adults away from nubile young women, restricting jobs by gender is not going to work real well.

Is this remark just pandering to the stereotype that gays (lesbians included) are pervy pedos?

Do you imagine that gay males are in 7th heaven when they find themselves showering in a room full of other bare nekkid males? I had a gay friend who assured me that such isn't the case, and I got the sense that he probably wasn't just talking about himself.

Now I can readily imagine a straight male getting well jazzed if he could watch a class full of nubile teen-age girls showering, no matter how civilly he might manage to comport himself outwardly. We still wouldn't tolerate that.

But I don't picture an adult lesbian getting all jazzed up if she watched a class full of girls showering. Am I wrong?

WhyNot
06-28-2015, 08:54 PM
ETA: The class I took, a professional class that supplied practitioners to spas all around the Sonoma/Napa/Calistoga area, had 17 students, of which only 4 were male. The chief instructor (an older female who had been in the biz for umpty-ump years) remarked that it was rare to have more than one male, if any, in a class. The females in the class were conspicuously unenthusiastic about pairing up with a male for the practice sessions, except for two of them that worked with the males a lot and seemed comfortable with that. And this was in a supervised classroom setting!
So you attended a professional class in which 24% of the students were male...how is that a profession closed to men?

Is this remark just pandering to the stereotype that gays (lesbians included) are pervy pedos?
No, it's a remark in direct response to a quoted post which says, "I would like to believe that supervising the girl's shower room at the high school gym would be restricted to women only". Do you have another interpretation to offer that doesn't involve that supervisor being sexually attracted to the girls showering?

But I don't picture an adult lesbian getting all jazzed up if she watched a class full of girls showering. Am I wrong?
Are you under the impression that lesbian women don't have sex drives? I don't think they're any more prone to ephebophilia than straight men, but if the poster's concern is sexual attraction to the students (and I can't imagine what else it might be, but I'm open to other suggestions), then choosing a teacher with sexual attraction to that gender of student - even if that teacher happens to be the same gender as the student - seems the wrong way to go about it. I would suggest that rather we hold all teachers to a high standard of not sexually assaulting their students, no matter what gender the teacher happens to be.

GreenElf
06-29-2015, 02:59 PM
I already posted this back in April (post #109), but greeting card retail outlets like Hallmark hire mostly women.

alphaboi867
06-29-2015, 07:54 PM
I would like to believe that supervising the girl's shower room at the high school gym would be restricted to women only ... there's no biological reason a man couldn't do this job as well if not better than a woman

This was brought up as an example of an acceptable form of discrimination in my 8th grade social studies class (the school was in the process of hiring a new girls' PE teacher & was only accepting applications from women as part of the job involved supervising the lockerroom). Likewise when if the boys' PE teacher called off the girls' teacher just did a mixed activity, but there was always a male sub or staff member assigned to the lockerroom.

Same deal in high school, though the female PE teacher did enter the boys' lockerroom to retrieve equipment (it was the only way to get to the storage room where the balls were kept), but she'd always clear it with one of the male teachers that the it was OK for her to come in or that it was empty. Granted they'd just automatically give her the OK wether there were stranglers or not and she did catch a few of my class mates naked or on the toilet (no stall doors, and you had to walk past the toilets to get to the storage room), but nobody really thought anything of it. I imagine it would've been a much bigger deal if the sexes were reversed.

TheMightyAtlas
09-27-2015, 07:16 AM
That is both sad and unjust. If I were in your place, I would firmly put my foot down over this nonsense your wife is advocating. You are your daughter's parent too and re-arranging your whole family's life just to avoid male teachers is both bigoted and unreasonable.

Reviving this semi-zombie to provide an update. I did put my foot down. I might have "won" only because the local private schools that had places were either of low quality or high cost (30k+ tuition, plus other fees) AND thoroughly inconvenient.

After the initial excitement wore of (the kids, including my daughter, were stoked to have a male teacher) the gender of the teacher seems to be a non-issue.

Other families did pull kids out of the school. The number of students in fourth grade is lower than the same cohort was in third grade (67 vs 74). Unfortunately this means they dropped from four smaller classes to three larger ones.

WhyNot
09-27-2015, 07:37 AM
Thanks for the update! I was just thinking about this the other day and meant to bump it to ask you how it was going. Glad to hear it's been a non-issue (not surprised, but glad). Sorry that the other parents' fear and bigotry led to a larger class size; that really stinks.

Senegoid
09-27-2015, 09:07 AM
Thanks for the update! I was just thinking about this the other day and meant to bump it to ask you how it was going. Glad to hear it's been a non-issue (not surprised, but glad). Sorry that the other parents' fear and bigotry led to a larger class size; that really stinks.

The general societal attitude that all males are pedos and pervs seems to be a relatively new cancer (meaning, within the last 30 years or so?) in our society, at least the massive paranoia and FUD about it is, and is very controversial of course.

How do you think this compares with what would have happened, say, 40 or 50 years ago?

(I had a male teacher in 4th grade, circa 1961, and I don't think there was any kind of mass uprising about such things back then.)

WhyNot
09-27-2015, 09:19 AM
How do you think this compares with what would have happened, say, 40 or 50 years ago?

I'm only 40, so I really can't say. :)

I do think you're right that pedo panic is a fairly recent phenomenon. There have always been actual pedophiles, of course, but it seems like this certainty that ANY and EVERY man who puts himself in a position of working with children must be a pervy predator is a thing of the last 20ish years. It's really sad. (It's also hard for me to know if it's really honestly new, or just something I've become aware of as an adult; when I was 10, I was certainly told about Stranger Danger, but I don't know that I would have been privy to grown up conversations like this one.)

K364
09-27-2015, 12:22 PM
Men can never be the smart one in a commercial.

They are the dufus boobs who gets straitened out by the women.

Shagnasty
09-27-2015, 06:29 PM
Reviving this semi-zombie to provide an update. I did put my foot down. I might have "won" only because the local private schools that had places were either of low quality or high cost (30k+ tuition, plus other fees) AND thoroughly inconvenient.

That is good news regardless of the other reasons in your favor. Hopefully, the teacher will be a good one and your wife and others will quickly see the fallacy in their biases. It isn't acceptable in my view to shun male elementary school teachers for no reason. We could use a lot more of them.

Horatio Hellpop
09-28-2015, 01:00 AM
In animation (the old kind, not computer animation), the black ink was always done by male artists and the coloring was done by female artists. I'm sure this practice eroded at some point, but it was a strict policy at Disney during Walt's lifetime, and AFAIK at other American animation houses as well. In comic books, "colorist" was the most common job title for women (men did it too, but female artists were much likelier to get hired in that capacity than as pencillers or inkers).

Also, professional crab meat harvesting in the US, like for large-scale canneries--I don't have a cite for this, it's just one of those crazy-ass things I heard somewhere once--is done exclusively by women, and pretty much exclusively by black women at that! Men's hands are too big or something. Please debunk this if you have better information.

Urbanredneck
09-28-2015, 04:50 AM
Any bloke walks up to a sandpit-full of three-year-olds, my experience is that he'll be absolutely mobbed. And not just by the little boys. They're absolutely hungry for male input - because guys do play differently and do things differently than women, and kids sense that. It's so sad that we're missing out on that just because society is crazy-paranoid.I noticed that back when my kids were in kindergarten. Dad's coming in for lunch are treated like celebrities. Why? We are "cool" compared to Moms (sorry Moms). I was constantly being asked to open juice bottles or other containers.

Dad's will often wear uniforms and do funny things like burp or tell jokes. I did little magic tricks or little origami stuff like folding the napkin into something. I could quote Spongebob.

Moms? Well... the kids know Mom's will be telling them to sit up straight, clean their plates, and eat their vegetables. They feel the need to set a proper example.

Urbanredneck
09-28-2015, 04:57 AM
Clowns and magicians.

Mostly men.

TheMightyAtlas
12-13-2015, 05:33 PM
That is good news regardless of the other reasons in your favor. Hopefully, the teacher will be a good one and your wife and others will quickly see the fallacy in their biases. It isn't acceptable in my view to shun male elementary school teachers for no reason. We could use a lot more of them.

Bumping once again. The male teacher turns out to be completely bloody useless. Incredibly lazy. His website has nothing on it. The other teachers all post updates at least once a week on what is going on in class. The first report card was beyond stupid. Ratings seem to be completely random. We have a fair idea of what our kid's strengths and weaknesses are. They are totally not reflected in the ratings.

He seems to spend time in class talking about his personal life excessively. The kids know all about his car, dogs, home repairs, politics and wife.

Seems like the other moms knew something about this guy, and it wasn't that he was a pervert. My daughter and a few of her classmates are going to after school and weekend math and writing classes, just to keep up with the kids in the other sections.

The kids LOVE him. What's not to love? They have less work in fourth grade than they did in first grade.

WhyNot
12-13-2015, 05:57 PM
Well that's disappointing, and all perfectly good reasons not to like a teacher. Spread that far and wide, loudly and clearly.

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