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View Full Version : Better Call Saul 1.08 "Rico" 3/23/15


SenorBeef
03-23-2015, 12:40 PM
Previous threads:

1.01 Uno and 1.02 Mijo (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=748615)
1.03 Nacho (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=749297)
1.04 Hero (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750049)
1.05 Alpine Shepherd Boy (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750705)
1.06 Five-o (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=751339)
1.07 Bingo (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=751814)

Habeed
03-24-2015, 12:05 AM
I'd say the strongest part of the episode was the one where Hammlin tells Saul that just because he passed the bar, he can't hire Saul on as an attorney. Just because his brother is a founder doesn't mean he can risk hiring a guy who is that age and doesn't have the pedigree of a "respectable" law school.

Not sure how realistic that is - surely he could promote Saul to paralegal duties instead of the mailroom. Anyways, what made it so strong was the sound of the copier and the lack of dialogue. We know how that meeting was going to go - he'll be making eternal more copies yet.

cmyk
03-24-2015, 12:19 AM
We busted out laughing as soon as Jimmy crawled out of that dumpster only to realize the shredded documents were in the recycling bin on the other side.

Another great episode, one of the better ones yet, IMHO. Him and Chuck were really compelling together. Loved the ending.

Critical1
03-24-2015, 01:22 AM
The music while he was trying to piece together the shredded docs...It was sampled in a track by Hansom Boy Modeling School called "The Truth" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EheSOZHjHb8) I think they played the original track and not the HBMS version but don't know what it is. Anyone?

voltaire
03-24-2015, 02:02 AM
The music while he was trying to piece together the shredded docs...It was sampled in a track by Hansom Boy Modeling School called "The Truth" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EheSOZHjHb8) I think they played the original track and not the HBMS version but don't know what it is. Anyone?
http://www.whosampled.com/Handsome-Boy-Modeling-School/The-Truth/

Critical1
03-24-2015, 02:22 AM
http://www.whosampled.com/Handsome-Boy-Modeling-School/The-Truth/

Nice, I wonder if that was on purpose? "Coffee Cold" is the original track and the Sampling track is "The Truth" and in that scene Saul was searching for the truth and then his coffee went cold.

Great episode.

Sam Lowry
03-24-2015, 08:20 AM
Good episode. It was interesting seeing Chuck go outside and not even realize what he'd done. I don't know how contracts for lawyers work so I don't know if HHM will take over the case now that it's a $20 million case. I think there's just two episodes left and they are supposed to be big ones, so I'm excited to see what happens.

I'd say the strongest part of the episode was the one where Hammlin tells Saul that just because he passed the bar, he can't hire Saul on as an attorney. Just because his brother is a founder doesn't mean he can risk hiring a guy who is that age and doesn't have the pedigree of a "respectable" law school.

Not sure how realistic that is - surely he could promote Saul to paralegal duties instead of the mailroom. Anyways, what made it so strong was the sound of the copier and the lack of dialogue. We know how that meeting was going to go - he'll be making eternal more copies yet.

That was a good scene, with the copier making noise and us not being able to hear the conversation until Hamlin opened the door at the end. It might be realistic that they couldn't hire Jimmy as a lawyer, but I thought it was funny about how big of a dick move that was for Hamlin to go in and interrupt the celebrations for Jimmy passing the bar to tell him that, and to take a piece of cake. Hamlin could have waited until the end of the day, or maybe the next day to tell Jimmy, but instead he had to interrupt the party.

We busted out laughing as soon as Jimmy crawled out of that dumpster only to realize the shredded documents were in the recycling bin on the other side.

I was feeling so sorry for Jimmy that he couldn't find the documents and was covered in trash, and then when I saw the recycling bin I cracked up. That was great.

Mr Shine
03-24-2015, 08:31 AM
Is it known why of 10 episode titles, 9 are a single word ending with o?

DrCube
03-24-2015, 08:51 AM
Is it known why of 10 episode titles, 9 are a single word ending with o?

Five was supposed to be "Jello" but the company wouldn't grant them use of their trademark.

SykoSkotty
03-24-2015, 08:58 AM
This show gets better and better each week. Sad to hear there's only two episodes left. I wonder if the work that Mike was asking about will put him in touch with Gus Fring.....

Quimby
03-24-2015, 09:02 AM
I really liked this episode. I really hope Jim gets a win here. Obviously he won't get a cut of the money some how but I want him to stick it to the arrogant jack ass on the other side who is defending swindling Seniors.

The senior partner at Chuck's firm makes for a great adversary. So douchey. Like how he told Kim she earned a place in the spot light and then took all the credit for the Kettleman victory.

DrCube
03-24-2015, 09:18 AM
The senior partner at Chuck's firm makes for a great adversary.
It's Hamlin, Hamlin, and McGill. I think the blonde douchey guy is the younger Hamlin. And we've seen Chuck. I'm not sure we've seen the senior Hamlin yet.

DataX
03-24-2015, 09:41 AM
It's Hamlin, Hamlin, and McGill. I think the blonde douchey guy is the younger Hamlin. And we've seen Chuck. I'm not sure we've seen the senior Hamlin yet.

Well assuming the other Hamlin is a parent/son I think you are correct, but everything so far seems to suggest he is the one calling the shots. And I believe there can be more than one senior partner. So he might not be the senior Hamlin, but I believe he'd be considered at least "a" senior partner.

I'm surprised people found this to be one of the better episodes. Perhaps I was not in the best of moods, but is found this to be one of the more boring ones. I like to watch them again after listening to the podcasts - as I always miss something - so perhaps my opinion will change.

Chuck's place seems unnecessarily dark - even during the daytime. Much of the progress he makes seems to involve that door. It would be nice to see him make it out by the end of the first season. Maybe to some place with lots of windows...

rock party
03-24-2015, 10:07 AM
I'm wondering if he really took the bar, or if he somehow cheated. I found it surprising that Chuck
had no knowledge Jimmy was trying to pass the bar exam.

Oh, and I just love Kim.

SlackerInc
03-24-2015, 10:10 AM
I think he took it for real. He is a smart guy, but still took three tries to pass. And he was way too nervous about that letter for it to be a cheat.

A little point I thought was interesting, from the AV Club writeup: "Fans of Breaking Bad minutiae will remember that Saul had a diploma from this (non-existent) university in his office, but with the name 'Saul Goodman' on it." So is there a way to explain this other than broken continuity? Could Jimmy have actually legally changed his name, and then asked the university to give him a new diploma under his new name? Or if Saul was just a nom de lawyer, could he have dummied up a version of the diploma with Saul Goodman on it--and if so, would that be legal?

ZipperJJ
03-24-2015, 10:16 AM
I really liked this episode. I really hope Jim gets a win here. Obviously he won't get a cut of the money some how but I want him to stick it to the arrogant jack ass on the other side who is defending swindling Seniors.

Why wouldn't he get a cut of the money? Surely part of class-action lawsuit payouts go to paying the lawyers?

Spoke
03-24-2015, 10:25 AM
Good episode. It was interesting seeing Chuck go outside and not even realize what he'd done. I don't know how contracts for lawyers work so I don't know if HHM will take over the case now that it's a $20 million case.

Yes, that is going to be a source of conflict. There was some foreshadowing when Kim mentioned Chuck's partnership obligation, and Jimmy played it off as "pro bono work." That ain't gonna fly. Hamlin is going to want his cut, and I get a feeling Jimmy is going to get screwed again.

hajario
03-24-2015, 10:25 AM
Jimmy is on the path of good. I can't wait to see what makes him say "fuck it" and turn into Saul. Maybe Hamlin screws him out of the money and (more importantly) the credit for the class action suit.

Quimby
03-24-2015, 10:29 AM
Why wouldn't he get a cut of the money? Surely part of class-action lawsuit payouts go to paying the lawyers?

I'm just assuming that circumstances will somehow make it so he doesn't get the money because that would make him a multi millionaire at a time when we know he isn't.

Malthus
03-24-2015, 10:30 AM
Jimmy is on the path of good. I can't wait to see what makes him say "fuck it" and turn into Saul. Maybe Hamlin screws him out of the money and (more importantly) the credit for the class action suit.

My prediction: Jimmy gets fucked out of participation in the $20 million lawsuit by Hamlin; Jimmy works out an underhanded, nasty way of taking revenge (probably involving Mike's help somehow); this method works, and fucks Hamlin but good - but in the process somehow alienates and/or harms his brother and associate friend - and leaves him permanently on the 'bad side'.

I could of course be totally wrong - would not be the first time. ;)

jsc1953
03-24-2015, 10:36 AM
This show gets better and better each week. Sad to hear there's only two episodes left. I wonder if the work that Mike was asking about will put him in touch with Gus Fring.....

Oh, absolutely. The moment his daughter-in-law said "it's only a drop in the bucket" you could see (with the benefit of hindsight, and "next time on BCS") the moment where Mike crosses over to the dark side.

Great episode. It made me wish I was binge-watching, so I could immediately roll on to the next one when it was over. Stupid real-time 20th century TV viewing.

SlackerInc
03-24-2015, 10:38 AM
Jimmy is on the path of good. I can't wait to see what makes him say "fuck it" and turn into Saul.

I don't think Saul was so bad. Didn't he actually continue to do a pretty good job representing his clients?

I'm just assuming that circumstances will somehow make it so he doesn't get the money because that would make him a multi millionaire at a time when we know he isn't.

All those pillars and giant Constitutions don't come cheap. He was clearly doing better in that office, with his multiple employees, than in his nail salon boiler room.

TriPolar
03-24-2015, 10:41 AM
I'm liking the show, it's a little slow but I assume it's building up to something. This is now the good Jimmy that I thought was needed to set up his Saul character. It does sound like Jimmy is about to get screwed out of this settlement, and doesn't look good for his brother either. If not for the reputation of Breaking Bad this show would have been moving too slowly to catch on.

DrCube
03-24-2015, 10:58 AM
If not for the reputation of Breaking Bad this show would have been moving too slowly to catch on.
I don't know, man. It's not action packed, but it is really clever, and seems to try a new genre on for size ever week. It's got variety, character development (still waiting for Kim to break out, though), and a unique, interesting vision. My girlfriend likes it, and she didn't watch more than one season of Breaking Bad, so never got to Saul.

Also, count me in as one who doesn't remember Saul being a bad guy on BB. He was involved in crime, but only peripherally, and he seemed to talk sense into people rather than egging them on. He was a criminal, but not evil the way Walt, Gus, Tuco and other criminals on the show were. This show is about Jimmy becoming Saul, but it isn't going to be a downhill slide from good to evil the way Breaking Bad was. More of a gradual, meandering, wrestling with tough choices type of show with Jimmy realizing one day that he's a pretty far down a road he didn't intend to be on and learning to deal with it.

ZipperJJ
03-24-2015, 11:03 AM
Can someone remind me what the daughter-in-law's money is from? (Probably from last week and I've already forgotten!)

jsc1953
03-24-2015, 11:06 AM
Can someone remind me what the daughter-in-law's money is from? (Probably from last week and I've already forgotten!)

I think it was money that her husband/Mike's son stashed from his shady police practices. She found it after his death.

TriPolar
03-24-2015, 11:19 AM
I don't know, man. It's not action packed, but it is really clever, and seems to try a new genre on for size ever week. It's got variety, character development (still waiting for Kim to break out, though), and a unique, interesting vision. My girlfriend likes it, and she didn't watch more than one season of Breaking Bad, so never got to Saul.


Well yeah, I should have said it wouldn't catch on with me. It's a quality production, it will have a following just from that.

Casey1505
03-24-2015, 11:22 AM
from the AV Club writeup: "...could he have dummied up a version of the diploma with Saul Goodman on it--and if so, would that be legal?

Not a fan of everything being overthought, but given what we know about Saul Goodman and his evolution, I don't think that he'd be very concerned--if at all--with the legalities of replacing one name for another on a framed piece of paper for appearances sake. He did earn his degree from there, so I doubt he's really trying to defraud anyone. If he were, I'd assume he'd use a school with more of a reputation?

Sam Lowry
03-24-2015, 11:31 AM
I'm just assuming that circumstances will somehow make it so he doesn't get the money because that would make him a multi millionaire at a time when we know he isn't.

Also repeatedly in the show he's come close to getting something good and it slips right out of his grasp. It would be surprising for him to stumble upon this big class action suit and everything to go well and him to earn a lot of money from it. Either HHM will take over somehow and screw him out of the money, or maybe he gets the money and somehow it comes back to hurt Chuck and he loses his partnership and that money he's owed from HHM. Either way, we know it's not going to end up going well for Jimmy.

Not a fan of everything being overthought, but given what we know about Saul Goodman and his evolution, I don't think that he'd be very concerned--if at all--with the legalities of replacing one name for another on a framed piece of paper for appearances sake. He did earn his degree from there, so I doubt he's really trying to defraud anyone. If he were, I'd assume he'd use a school with more of a reputation?

I agree, he either could have asked for a new diploma with his new name, or could have printed up a new one, thinking that it's easier than explaining to each client who comes in. And thinking that it's not really defrauding anyone, since he did earn a degree.

TriPolar
03-24-2015, 11:35 AM
If Jimmy didn't have a law degree and/or passed the bar Chuck and Hamlin* would have found out about it.

*Hamlin - I see multiple spellings for this guy's name on Wikipedia and IMDB. I think there must have been a sign or letterhead that showed the real spelling.

DrCube
03-24-2015, 12:03 PM
I was thinking with the foreshadowing of Jimmy not getting hired at HHM and all, it was obvious Hamlin is going to find a way to screw Jimmy out of his $20M case.

But now I'm thinking the twist might be that Chuck screws his brother out of the case. I mean, he had to be complicit in rejecting Jimmy's job application at HHM. He was hesitant to say he was proud of Jimmy after he passed the bar. He always blames it on the other partners, but Chuck was the one who first told Jimmy maybe he shouldn't advertise under the name McGill.

They set it all up perfectly. Jimmy helps Chuck, Chuck helps Jimmy, everything is hunky dory, family time, and hugs, and then next episode, the other shoe is going to drop. We're going to find out Hamlin isn't Jimmy's arch nemesis, Chuck is. Hamlin was always just taking the heat for screwing Jimmy over, but Chuck was the source. Maybe we'll find out why.

Or not. This show never takes the obvious path.

DrCube
03-24-2015, 12:06 PM
If Jimmy didn't have a law degree and/or passed the bar Chuck and Hamlin* would have found out about it.

*Hamlin - I see multiple spellings for this guy's name on Wikipedia and IMDB. I think there must have been a sign or letterhead that showed the real spelling.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150210220821/breakingbad/es/images/0/0a/HHM.png

MyFootsZZZ
03-24-2015, 12:55 PM
I'm pretty sure I know what's going to happen next episode.

Chuck is "cured". Hamlin gets pissed that they used Chuck's access code on a case independent from the firm. Somehow Hamlin threatens Chuck, saying that it's now their case. Chuck once again gives in to Hamlin, and not going 'up to bat' for his brother, just like he let Hamlin convince him not to let Jimmy work there. Kim works out a deal... (I'm hoping not with any sexual favors). I don't know... something along those lines.

Maybe I'm off.

I like that 'Better Call Saul' is it's own animal. Why would you expect otherwise? This is another man's story, with hints of themes in 'Breaking Bad', But it's got a little more range as a whole... at least in my humble opinion.

I don't think this show's plot is as easy to describe. At least not yet, anyway.

It doesn't 'go off the rails' from the BB universe, that's all that I require of it's existence as a show. I don't want them to pull a 'Star Wars' and tarnish the world in which BB is set.

So far so good!

As far as to whether it's good or not, I think it's brilliant so far. But I can see where it might not attract all of BB's fans. I also think that people who didn't get into BB should give this a shot.

Ellis Dee
03-24-2015, 01:00 PM
My guess is that not only does Jimmy get screwed out of the money, the seniors end up getting screwed over by HHM as well.

Quimby
03-24-2015, 01:03 PM
I'm thinking HHM will use the fact that they used Chuck's copy code to glom onto the case and take it.

hajario
03-24-2015, 01:22 PM
I'm pretty sure I know what's going to happen next episode.

Chuck is "cured". Hamlin gets pissed that they used Chuck's access code on a case independent from the firm. Somehow Hamlin threatens Chuck, saying that it's now their case. Chuck once again gives in to Hamlin, and not going 'up to bat' for his brother, just like he let Hamlin convince him not to let Jimmy work there. Kim works out a deal... (I'm hoping not with any sexual favors). I don't know... something along those lines.

Maybe I'm off.

I like that 'Better Call Saul' is it's own animal. Why would you expect otherwise? This is another man's story, with hints of themes in 'Breaking Bad', But it's got a little more range as a whole... at least in my humble opinion.

I don't think this show's plot is as easy to describe. At least not yet, anyway.

It doesn't 'go off the rails' from the BB universe, that's all that I require of it's existence as a show. I don't want them to pull a 'Star Wars' and tarnish the world in which BB is set.

So far so good!

As far as to whether it's good or not, I think it's brilliant so far. But I can see where it might not attract all of BB's fans. I also think that people who didn't get into BB should give this a shot.

And then maybe Jimmy does get some of what he's owed so long as he stops using the McGill name. He gets enough to set up shop and change his name.

Sherrerd
03-24-2015, 01:23 PM
I'm thinking HHM will use the fact that they used Chuck's copy code to glom onto the case and take it.

Absolutely.

They had to have the pages printed because 'no electronics' (though, possibly, computers of the day/search engines of the day might not have been up to providing all they needed, even if Chuck could have tolerated the presence of a computer). But in essence this will be yet another brick in the wall of Jimmy losing out, due to his devotion to his brother's welfare.



...This show is about Jimmy becoming Saul, but it isn't going to be a downhill slide from good to evil the way Breaking Bad was. More of a gradual, meandering, wrestling with tough choices type of show with Jimmy realizing one day that he's a pretty far down a road he didn't intend to be on and learning to deal with it.

Yes, this isn't the story of a man losing his soul to his own cold pride, so much as it's the story of a man failing to reach his potential. Jimmy clearly has the smarts and drive to have made it into a respectable life as a partner in a prestigious law firm. But he'll settle for making a lot of money as a disreputable representative for criminals...because of what this show will show us.

I agree with those speculating that Chuck may overtly betray Jimmy, and that this will be a large part of what turns Jimmy away from the possibility of life in the sunshine.

Malthus
03-24-2015, 01:25 PM
Absolutely.

They had to have the pages printed because 'no electronics' (and possibly computers of the day/search engines of the day might not have been up to providing all they needed, even if Chuck could have tolerated the presence of a computer). So this will be yet another brick in the wall of Jimmy losing out, due to his devotion to his brother's welfare.





Yes, this isn't the story of a man losing his soul to his own cold pride, so much as it's the story of a man failing to reach his potential. Jimmy clearly has the smarts and drive to have made it into a respectable life as a partner in a prestigious law firm. But he'll settle for making a lot of money as a disreputable representative for criminals...because of what this show will show us.

I agree with those speculating that Chuck may overtly betray Jimmy, and that this will be a large part of what turns Jimmy away from the possibility of life in the sunshine.

My guess is that, in return, Jimmy takes some sort of action that destroys his relationships with Chuck and that associate (probably, some underhanded revenge on that smarmy Hamlin). At least, neither is shown in Breaking Bad.

MyFootsZZZ
03-24-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm thinking HHM will use the fact that they used Chuck's copy code to glom onto the case and take it.

That's what I'm saying.

Habeed
03-24-2015, 01:28 PM
So is there a way to explain this other than broken continuity? Could Jimmy have actually legally changed his name, and then asked the university to give him a new diploma under his new name?
I think you can do that. Legally change your name, then send the court order of the name change to the university. They would update their records with your new name so that the degree could also be verified.

People legally change half their names all the time with marriages. Surely you could get a new diploma printed in that case, right?

MaxTheVool
03-24-2015, 01:48 PM
It's going to be so heartbreaking when the obvious thing happens and Jimmy gets screwed out of his share of $20M.

Which is why it seems so likely that something entirely different is going to happen.


I also notice that Michael Mando (Nacho) has his name in the opening credits, but we haven't seem him in about 5 episodes. Seems likely he'll be back, although how he could relate to the nursing home storyline is beyond me. And I feel like Mike needs to get looped back in somehow as well.



This is definitely up there with the very best shows currently on TV.

Sam Lowry
03-24-2015, 02:12 PM
I was thinking with the foreshadowing of Jimmy not getting hired at HHM and all, it was obvious Hamlin is going to find a way to screw Jimmy out of his $20M case.

But now I'm thinking the twist might be that Chuck screws his brother out of the case. I mean, he had to be complicit in rejecting Jimmy's job application at HHM. He was hesitant to say he was proud of Jimmy after he passed the bar. He always blames it on the other partners, but Chuck was the one who first told Jimmy maybe he shouldn't advertise under the name McGill.

They set it all up perfectly. Jimmy helps Chuck, Chuck helps Jimmy, everything is hunky dory, family time, and hugs, and then next episode, the other shoe is going to drop. We're going to find out Hamlin isn't Jimmy's arch nemesis, Chuck is. Hamlin was always just taking the heat for screwing Jimmy over, but Chuck was the source. Maybe we'll find out why.

Or not. This show never takes the obvious path.

Interesting theory, it's definitely possible. It would explain why we don't see Chuck in BB, it's because they had a falling out. It would be more tragic than HHM screwing over Jimmy.

I don't think Chuck is or will ever mean to be Jimmy's nemesis. I don't think Chuck was visibly proud and happy because he's not as outwardly emotional, and he was surprised since he thought of (and still thinks of) Jimmy as his screw-up younger brother. But I could see maybe Hamlin convincing Chuck with a logical explanation that it would be best for everyone if something happened that left Jimmy out in the cold.


I like that 'Better Call Saul' is it's own animal. Why would you expect otherwise? This is another man's story, with hints of themes in 'Breaking Bad', But it's got a little more range as a whole... at least in my humble opinion.


Yeah, I think even if BB had never existed I'd still be enjoying BCS. But having watched BB, brings a layer of tragedy to BCS, since we know that Saul will never get the respect he wants. Also brings more tragedy to Mike's story, since we know he went down a bad road because feels guilt for his son and wants to take care of his granddaughter. The stuff from BB makes Jimmy and Mike's stories more compelling, but I think I would find them compelling even on their own.



I also notice that Michael Mando (Nacho) has his name in the opening credits, but we haven't seem him in about 5 episodes. Seems likely he'll be back, although how he could relate to the nursing home storyline is beyond me. And I feel like Mike needs to get looped back in somehow as well.


Yes, I keep waiting for Nacho to pop back up. It doesn't necessarily mean he'll be related to the nursing home storyline. He wasn't happy how things ended up with Jimmy, it could that Jimmy is dealing with all that stuff and wondering how things could get any worse and then Nacho walks in with a demand and/or a threat.

Jack of Words
03-24-2015, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I think even if BB had never existed I'd still be enjoying BCS. But having watched BB, brings a layer of tragedy to BCS, since we know that Saul will never get the respect he wants. Also brings more tragedy to Mike's story, since we know he went down a bad road because feels guilt for his son and wants to take care of his granddaughter. The stuff from BB makes Jimmy and Mike's stories more compelling, but I think I would find them compelling even on their own.


Without BB, the opening of BCS makes very little sense - and only by continuing into BB could we ever understand why he's looking back on his legal career while working in a Cinnabun under an assumed name.

Spoke
03-24-2015, 02:27 PM
Bear in mind, though, that it was Chuck who decided it was a $20 million case. Jimmy would have taken the smaller money and run.

DataX
03-24-2015, 02:30 PM
I'm thinking HHM will use the fact that they used Chuck's copy code to glom onto the case and take it.

Good point.

He didn't need to do that. You can go to any law library and look up those cases for free (and could then as well). You can Shepardize the cases too (which is a reverse directory of case law - you look up case law - like Miranda v Arizona and it lists every case that mentions that case). It would take an hour tops to pull the four (I think it was four) cases, Shepardize them, and copy the four cases and the listings in Shepard's citations. Normally you wouldn't copy every case you shepardize - especially cases like Miranda v. Arizona - as you could have hundreds or even thousands of cases (he might know these are lightly cited perhaps - but I doubt it). Since he is going to have to read them anyway - he'd be better off reading the four cases (which he needs to do anyway) and picking the parts that are relevant (which is what the "headnotes" that she mentioned) allows you to do.

He also only gave the name of the cases. They've done pretty well on legal stuff so far (they mention in the podcast they don't know much about the law) - they got the Shepardize part right, but you'd give the full citation (unless the article or whatever didn't mention them - which no legal publication would normally do). So it would be something like Smith vs Disher, 392 F.Supp. 286 (ignoring unpublished or recent decisions that would be west law only - but you won't find much citing them). Otherwise you might pull a case with the same name - plus it's impolite when asking a favor to have the other person figure out which case it is.

So I think you are on to something - the only reason to mention that code is to move the plot forward.

DrCube
03-24-2015, 02:42 PM
Bear in mind, though, that it was Chuck who decided it was a $20 million case. Jimmy would have taken the smaller money and run.

I'm expecting something like "I knew you could take on Sandpiper and I wanted to help.... but when I heard that it was a chain of nursing homes across state lines, I realized that a struggling, inexperienced lawyer would never be able to take on a case this big by himself, so why don't you just let HHM handle it?"

Push You Down
03-24-2015, 02:44 PM
Without BB, the opening of BCS makes very little sense - and only by continuing into BB could we ever understand why he's looking back on his legal career while working in a Cinnabun under an assumed name.

I disagree. If you saw Breaking Bad, you UNDERSTAND more of the flashforward opening but there's no reason that someone going in blind, wouldn't assume that the flashforward has to do with the events of BCS.


I also don't think people should assume that because we didn't see so-and-so on BB, that means something must happen to them. Saul was a supporting character on BB, there's no reason to assume his personal life supporting cast would show up on Walt's show.

JeffB
03-24-2015, 03:35 PM
I agree that HHM will screw Jimmy out of the class action lawsuit somehow, but I don't think Chuck will be an active part of that. The way I took the ending is that Chuck was fine going outside until he realized that he was outside, at which point he froze and dropped the box. I think he's about to have another episode that could put him completely out of commission.

DrCube
03-24-2015, 03:39 PM
I agree that HHM will screw Jimmy out of the class action lawsuit somehow, but I don't think Chuck will be an active part of that. The way I took the ending is that Chuck was fine going outside until he realized that he was outside, at which point he froze and dropped the box. I think he's about to have another episode that could put him completely out of commission.

They've made it pretty clear that when Jimmy is doing good, Chuck is doing good. So if Chuck gets put out of commission, it will probably be Jimmy's doing. Sneaky underhanded tricks to pay back Hamlin for stealing his case, maybe.

El_Kabong
03-24-2015, 03:42 PM
I'm thinking HHM will use the fact that they used Chuck's copy code to glom onto the case and take it.

Not a lawyer, not even on TV, but I'm thinking that from a legal standpoint, the case already belongs to HHM. IIRC Chuck is still officially a partner, and he just used HHM's facilities, and an employee, to do about $400 of case-related printing on HHM's nickel. Seems like it would be hard to argue that it isn't their case now.

Anyway, yeah, looks like Jimmy is totally screwed on this one.

Critical1
03-24-2015, 03:44 PM
I agree that HHM will screw Jimmy out of the class action lawsuit somehow, but I don't think Chuck will be an active part of that. The way I took the ending is that Chuck was fine going outside until he realized that he was outside, at which point he froze and dropped the box. I think he's about to have another episode that could put him completely out of commission.

The impression that I got was he started to freak out then just realized that he was fine outside. As in he just had a sort of "OMG it was all in my head moment"

MaxTheVool
03-24-2015, 04:03 PM
Bear in mind, though, that it was Chuck who decided it was a $20 million case. Jimmy would have taken the smaller money and run.

There's also the chance that they had a really solid $1 million case and Chuck just screwed it up because he's out of practice and out of the loop, and totally overreached.

Spoke
03-24-2015, 05:40 PM
Not a lawyer, not even on TV, but I'm thinking that from a legal standpoint, the case already belongs to HHM. IIRC Chuck is still officially a partner, and he just used HHM's facilities, and an employee, to do about $400 of case-related printing on HHM's nickel. Seems like it would be hard to argue that it isn't their case now.

Anyway, yeah, looks like Jimmy is totally screwed on this one.

It's still Jimmy's case. The clients are his. But I'd say HHM could make a fair legal claim to half of the fees at this point. The question is how they will screw Jimmy out of his share. We shall see.

(Did Jimmy actually sign up any of his clients, though, other than the one old lady? Don't remember if they covered that.)

hajario
03-24-2015, 05:40 PM
HHM could buy out Chuck like Jimmy has been demanding and then the case is theirs.

Spoke
03-24-2015, 05:45 PM
Whose case it is is up to the clients. HHM can claim a share of the fees at this point, but it's the clients who decide who represents them. Which is why I was wondering if Jimmy got them all signed up.

Fear Itself
03-24-2015, 05:45 PM
HHM could buy out Chuck like Jimmy has been demanding and then the case is theirs.Not if the clients don't agree.

Evin
03-24-2015, 05:53 PM
Wow. As a lawyer who does a lot of the type of work that Chuck does (class actions, RICO), I was amazed at the attention to some very fine detail in this episode. For example, when Chuck emerges from his foggy hypochondria ("$20 million"), he starts rattling off the quite accurate legal punch list of items to be prepared at once. He stated that he would prepare a motion for conditional certification of the class action that "they will try to pierce" in order to get discovery going. The thing is, conditional certifications were eliminated from the Federal Rules in December, 2003. But upon checking on this "error," I see that what is happening in the show is occurring in 2002, when this "tricky" device was still around. Kudos!

As for Jimmy's getting cut out of the entire fee, I can see only 2 ways this could really happen, both draconian events, but I won't venture out on that.

hajario
03-24-2015, 06:08 PM
Jimmy probably cares more about the victory than the fee in many respects. He's finally earned his brother's respect and showed Hamlin that he's competent and should have hired him.

CarnalK
03-24-2015, 06:16 PM
Jimmy probably cares more about the victory than the fee in many respects. He's finally earned his brother's respect and showed Hamlin that he's competent and should have hired him.

Even if he's competent that doesn't mean they should have hired him. There's plenty of competent lawyers that didn't graduate from a Mickey Mouse school. Image needs to be preserved.

Casey1505
03-24-2015, 06:27 PM
The impression that I got was he started to freak out then just realized that he was fine outside. As in he just had a sort of "OMG it was all in my head moment"

I'm on the other side. I thought that he began to freak once he realized where he was, and was about to go catatonic.

I've been wrong before. Just ask my wife.

carnivorousplant
03-24-2015, 06:47 PM
I disagree. If you saw Breaking Bad, you UNDERSTAND more of the flashforward opening but there's no reason that someone going in blind, wouldn't assume that the flashforward has to do with the events of BCS.




Is Saul hiding out before or after Breaking Bad?

hajario
03-24-2015, 06:48 PM
Is Saul hiding out before or after Breaking Bad?

After. It's his new identity.

CarnalK
03-24-2015, 06:58 PM
I'm on the other side. I thought that he began to freak once he realized where he was, and was about to go catatonic.

I've been wrong before. Just ask my wife.

Well they left it as a cliff hanger but I can't see it going any way other than Chuck being "cured". He's been mostly rational throughout his illness. How could he not see that this proves it was all in his head?

jsc1953
03-24-2015, 07:34 PM
Well they left it as a cliff hanger but I can't see it going any way other than Chuck being "cured". He's been mostly rational throughout his illness. How could he not see that this proves it was all in his head?

I thought the same thing, as the episode ended -- is he freaking out, or does he realize that he's cured? But:

The scenes from "next week on BCS" show Chuck outdoors, and in a meeting outside his house. So apparently, he's cured.

theR
03-24-2015, 07:42 PM
Well they left it as a cliff hanger but I can't see it going any way other than Chuck being "cured". He's been mostly rational throughout his illness. How could he not see that this proves it was all in his head?

Because the illness isn't rational in the first place, so we shouldn't expect him to be suddenly rational about it just because he got distracted for a minute. Maybe he will realize he is fine, maybe he won't. I lean towards the latter given his surprised/pained expression right before they showed him collapsing.

Kaboodle
03-24-2015, 08:00 PM
Because the illness isn't rational in the first place, so we shouldn't expect him to be suddenly rational about it just because he got distracted for a minute. Maybe he will realize he is fine, maybe he won't. I lean towards the latter given his surprised/pained expression right before they showed him collapsing.
The 'collapsing' part confused me so I went back and watched it. At the very end, Chuck doesn't collapse, he drops the file box he's holding but he's still standing.

Chuck's ill but he's not dumb. After reading this thread I'm leaning toward Chuck realizing that his illness is psychological but it will be devastating to him. Instead of 'I'm ill and I'll work towards getting better' it will be 'Oh my god, I'm crazy!'.

soonerblue
03-24-2015, 08:23 PM
Maybe when Chuck dropped the box he realized that his poison aversion therapy was working ... that he had built up his tolerance for electromagnetic fields.

standingwave
03-24-2015, 09:16 PM
He was involved in crime, but only peripherally, and he seemed to talk sense into people rather than egging them on. He was a criminal, but not evil the way Walt, Gus, Tuco and other criminals on the show were.

He was not overtly evil but he was helping them launder drug money and was definitely encouraging them by the third season when both Walt and Jesse were trying to extricate themselves from the business. IIRC he got something like a 20% cut for laundering.

He lives. Happy housewarming, kid. Don't look so glad to see me.

Thanks.

Interesting decor. It's subtle. The whole minimalist thing never really blew my hair back, but hey. So how are you doing? Staying clean? Good. I was kind of worried that you were back to old habits since I didn't hear from you, you know. You realise how stupid it is to ignore your counsel's phone calls? What if I was trying to warn you that the DEA was gonna kick down your door? What then?

Why don't you spare me the sermon and get to why you're here?

Fair enough. Remember the other day when I brought up the idea of you getting back in touch with your partner? Well, I kind of wanted to re-float that boat. I'm not suggesting you yourself get back to cooking. I mean, you being in rehab and all. I only want you to convince the master chef to do his thing. So, what do you say?

Sure, man. Whatever.

Okay. Whatever what? I mean, you gonna call him?

I said I'll handle it.

Final thought. Look at this place. You're house-poor, you got no bankroll. If you get the maestro cooking again, I'll make it worth your while. Call him.

Patch
03-24-2015, 10:06 PM
I also notice that Michael Mando (Nacho) has his name in the opening credits, but we haven't seem him in about 5 episodes. Seems likely he'll be back, although how he could relate to the nursing home storyline is beyond me. And I feel like Mike needs to get looped back in somehow as well.


If Jimmy wins, he may be coming back for the money he feels Jimmy owes him for the Kettlemans?

Push You Down
03-24-2015, 10:19 PM
He was not overtly evil but he was helping them launder drug money and was definitely encouraging them by the third season when both Walt and Jesse were trying to extricate themselves from the business. IIRC he got something like a 20% cut for laundering.

He lives. Happy housewarming, kid. Don't look so glad to see me.

Thanks.

Interesting decor. It's subtle. The whole minimalist thing never really blew my hair back, but hey. So how are you doing? Staying clean? Good. I was kind of worried that you were back to old habits since I didn't hear from you, you know. You realise how stupid it is to ignore your counsel's phone calls? What if I was trying to warn you that the DEA was gonna kick down your door? What then?

Why don't you spare me the sermon and get to why you're here?

Fair enough. Remember the other day when I brought up the idea of you getting back in touch with your partner? Well, I kind of wanted to re-float that boat. I'm not suggesting you yourself get back to cooking. I mean, you being in rehab and all. I only want you to convince the master chef to do his thing. So, what do you say?

Sure, man. Whatever.

Okay. Whatever what? I mean, you gonna call him?

I said I'll handle it.

Final thought. Look at this place. You're house-poor, you got no bankroll. If you get the maestro cooking again, I'll make it worth your while. Call him.


IIRC, he also was the first to suggest just killing Badger when he got arrested. I think Saul was a pragmatic opportunist, but not eeeevvvvvil.

standingwave
03-24-2015, 11:15 PM
IIRC, he also was the first to suggest just killing Badger when he got arrested. I think Saul was a pragmatic opportunist, but not eeeevvvvvil.

Much better to kill the lawyer's client than the lawyer himself, particularly from the lawyer's POV.

AK84
03-25-2015, 02:36 AM
Unless New Mexico or US Federal Rules are different (markedly so from everywhere else) there is no property in a client and I cannot see Chuck's use of Westlaw being enough to give the case to HHM unless HHM can convince the clients that they would be better off using them, which considering how big the case is going to get, is likely. Although the exact terms of Chucks Partnership agreement will also matter.

I think far more likely is that Jimmy accepts a payoff from the mega corp to drop or settle the case.

I loved the way Chucks actor portrayed him. The manner in which he brings up the demanded settlement during the negotiation was right on the money, although in real life the goateed fuck would have known not to speak so much and expose his hands. And the Federal issue.

Encinitas
03-25-2015, 04:28 AM
I desperately want a t-shirt that says: "Go Land Crabs!"

theR
03-25-2015, 06:51 AM
The 'collapsing' part confused me so I went back and watched it. At the very end, Chuck doesn't collapse, he drops the file box he's holding but he's still standing.

Chuck's ill but he's not dumb. After reading this thread I'm leaning toward Chuck realizing that his illness is psychological but it will be devastating to him. Instead of 'I'm ill and I'll work towards getting better' it will be 'Oh my god, I'm crazy!'.

Okay, I thought he fell over. It will be interesting if he turns on Jimmy to help HHM get the case as some people are guessing. It would also explain why they show Chuck's clear hesitation when Jimmy asks for a job as a lawyer in the flashback. They needed to show that Chuck has never really trusted Jimmy's abilities to explain the motivation.

SJL4041
03-25-2015, 08:29 AM
Five was supposed to be "Jello" but the company wouldn't grant them use of their trademark.

Thank you for posting this; it makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I had spun a whole Unified Theory of Better Call Saul based on the one episode being so strangely named. I theorized that Alpine Shepherd Boy (which was given as a gift to Jimmy by one of his first wills client) was a stand-in for Jimmy retaining his soul, and that it was the crux of the entire season: will Jimmy stay straight, be the Alpine Shepherd Boy and all-around good guy or will he choose the easier path of Slimy Park Bench lawyer.

It turns out Jell-o are just bitches. I hope you get gutted by your new private equity owner!

Sauron
03-25-2015, 08:37 AM
I loved the way Chucks actor portrayed him. The manner in which he brings up the demanded settlement during the negotiation was right on the money ...

If you're a fan of 70s television, or even acquainted with it, prepare to have your mind blown: Chuck (Michael McKean) was Lenny on Laverne and Shirley.

Here's another mind-blower: He was one of the stars of (and helped write) This is Spinal Tap.

The man is immensely talented.

jsc1953
03-25-2015, 08:46 AM
If you're a fan of 70s television, or even acquainted with it, prepare to have your mind blown: Chuck (Michael McKean) was Lenny on Laverne and Shirley.

Here's another mind-blower: He was one of the stars of (and helped write) This is Spinal Tap.

The man is immensely talented.

Remember the episode of Friends, where Monica interviews with a company making imitation chocolate ("mocklate") and has to cook with it? Michael McKean was the interviewer.

Bryan Ekers
03-25-2015, 08:47 AM
And he nails Superman's mom!

SlackerInc
03-25-2015, 08:55 AM
I don't know, man. It's not action packed, but it is really clever, and seems to try a new genre on for size ever week. It's got variety, character development (still waiting for Kim to break out, though), and a unique, interesting vision. My girlfriend likes it, and she didn't watch more than one season of Breaking Bad, so never got to Saul.

Also, count me in as one who doesn't remember Saul being a bad guy on BB. He was involved in crime, but only peripherally, and he seemed to talk sense into people rather than egging them on. He was a criminal, but not evil the way Walt, Gus, Tuco and other criminals on the show were. This show is about Jimmy becoming Saul, but it isn't going to be a downhill slide from good to evil the way Breaking Bad was. More of a gradual, meandering, wrestling with tough choices type of show with Jimmy realizing one day that he's a pretty far down a road he didn't intend to be on and learning to deal with it.

This. All of it. Cosigned!

The impression that I got was he started to freak out then just realized that he was fine outside. As in he just had a sort of "OMG it was all in my head moment"

That was how I took it too. Or, as others have suggested, that his "aversion therapy" has been a success. I will be surprised if he's like "OMG I'm outside, the RAYZZ" and has another space blanket freakout.

Wow. As a lawyer who does a lot of the type of work that Chuck does (class actions, RICO), I was amazed at the attention to some very fine detail in this episode. For example, when Chuck emerges from his foggy hypochondria ("$20 million"), he starts rattling off the quite accurate legal punch list of items to be prepared at once. He stated that he would prepare a motion for conditional certification of the class action that "they will try to pierce" in order to get discovery going. The thing is, conditional certifications were eliminated from the Federal Rules in December, 2003. But upon checking on this "error," I see that what is happening in the show is occurring in 2002, when this "tricky" device was still around. Kudos!

As for Jimmy's getting cut out of the entire fee, I can see only 2 ways this could really happen, both draconian events, but I won't venture out on that.

Very interesting on the legal background. But please feel free to "venture out" further! :)

davidm
03-25-2015, 08:59 AM
If you're a fan of 70s television, or even acquainted with it, prepare to have your mind blown: Chuck (Michael McKean) was Lenny on Laverne and Shirley.
...It wasn't obvious to me, but now that you've mentioned it, I can see it.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RWkhAajHSWQ/hqdefault.jpg

carnivorousplant
03-25-2015, 09:12 AM
I theorized that Alpine Shepherd Boy (which was given as a gift to Jimmy by one of his first wills client)

I thought she was leaving it to someone in her will.

SlackerInc
03-25-2015, 09:29 AM
Huh, I thought everyone old enough to remember Laverne & Shirley knew it was the same actor. He was good recently BTW in the relatively little-seen HBO show Family Tree (http://www.hbo.com/family-tree#/family-tree/cast-and-crew.html), in which he played a Brit--pretty effectively to these American ears.

Push You Down
03-25-2015, 09:48 AM
Huh, I thought everyone old enough to remember Laverne & Shirley knew it was the same actor. He was good recently BTW in the relatively little-seen HBO show Family Tree (http://www.hbo.com/family-tree#/family-tree/cast-and-crew.html), in which he played a Brit--pretty effectively to these American ears.

He's had lots of practice, y'know with Spinal Tap and HBO's Dream On (wait.. he might have been playing Australian on that one)

Michael McKean even did a short stint on SNL in the 90s.

carnivorousplant
03-25-2015, 09:51 AM
Huh, I thought everyone old enough to remember Laverne & Shirley knew it was the same actor.

Mrs. Plant (v.3.0) caught it and showed me pictures on the web. I never have watched comedy TV programs. :)

theR
03-25-2015, 10:00 AM
Also, count me in as one who doesn't remember Saul being a bad guy on BB. He was involved in crime, but only peripherally, and he seemed to talk sense into people rather than egging them on. He was a criminal, but not evil the way Walt, Gus, Tuco and other criminals on the show were. This show is about Jimmy becoming Saul, but it isn't going to be a downhill slide from good to evil the way Breaking Bad was. More of a gradual, meandering, wrestling with tough choices type of show with Jimmy realizing one day that he's a pretty far down a road he didn't intend to be on and learning to deal with it.

Yes, I don't think people should keep expecting him to "break bad" since that's not how he was portrayed in Breaking Bad. He was just a criminal defense lawyer who stumbled into his most lucrative clients and wasn't actively trying to become a criminal himself.

Quimby
03-25-2015, 10:35 AM
Yeah I never saw him as Evil. Pragmatic and selfish. But not Evil.

Dung Beetle
03-25-2015, 10:44 AM
If you're a fan of 70s television, or even acquainted with it, prepare to have your mind blown: Chuck (Michael McKean) was Lenny on Laverne and Shirley.
Oh my god. I can't believe I missed that.

AK84
03-25-2015, 10:47 AM
How much older is Chuck supposed to be? I would have thought they had different mothers, but the one with the prison flashback suggest that they have the same mother.

Orr, G.
03-25-2015, 10:54 AM
Huh, I thought everyone old enough to remember Laverne & Shirley knew it was the same actor. He was good recently BTW in the relatively little-seen HBO show Family Tree (http://www.hbo.com/family-tree#/family-tree/cast-and-crew.html), in which he played a Brit--pretty effectively to these American ears.

Jumping in to say that I also very much enjoyed McKean's recurring role on the X-Files as the ironically skeptical official at Area 51. I wonder if he'll get a chance to reprise that role in the upcoming series?

I love his character on BCS. I noticed in this episode I was getting more and more anxious the more it looked like things were looking up for Chuck and Jimmy. That other shoe is gonna drop hard, methinks.

Shakester
03-25-2015, 11:03 AM
How much older is Chuck supposed to be? I would have thought they had different mothers, but the one with the prison flashback suggest that they have the same mother.

My eldest brother was 15 years older than me. He was born in 1950, me in 1965. Same mother and father. It's really not that unusual.

soonerblue
03-25-2015, 11:23 AM
Yeah I never saw him as Evil. Pragmatic and selfish. But not Evil.

The first time we see Saul in Breaking Bad - S2, E8 - was when Walt and Jesse went to the strip mall office to hire a "criminal" lawyer for Badger. Saul kicked Walt out for offering a $10,000 bribe. That night Jesse and Walt kidnapped Saul and drove him out into the desert next to a fresh grave. Jesse told Saul he shoulda taken the $10,000, and Saul said he didn't take bribes from strangers. As Jesse holds a gun to his head, Saul tells them both to put a dollar in his pocket - so they'd be protected by attorney-client privilege.

Okay, there's legal and aboveboard Saul.

Jesse threatens that anyone who snitches to the DEA will end up dead. Saul asked why didn't they just kill Badger. Jesse said that's not an option.

Kind of evil in a way ....

ftg
03-25-2015, 11:26 AM
I don't get the RICO part. So what if the company orders stuff from out of state? It would be pretty hard to for any non-trivial business not to. That doesn't make every fraud case a federal RICO matter. At the very least, the company they are ordering from would have to be in on the conspiracy. The other lawyers would laugh themselves silly at the suggestion of RICO based on an ordinary billing slip.

People don't recognize and know Micheal McKean (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0571106/?ref_=tt_cl_t5)? Amazing. So many, many roles. One early favorite: the evil boss in Dream On.

He and David "Squiggy" Lander did stand up together, complete with "Lenny and The Squigtones" musical bits. They also appeared together in other things such as Used Cars. Alas, David has MS and is not as active as he used to be. But he is a scout for the Angels.

Charlie Wayne
03-25-2015, 11:28 AM
Is it known why of 10 episode titles, 9 are a single word ending with o?

They probably meant "Alpine Shepherd Boy-o" and it was a typo somehow.

Jack of Words
03-25-2015, 11:28 AM
There was me quite pleased with myself for spotting instantly that Chuck had been in Spinal Tap, but I've never made the extra connection to Laverne & Shirley - and I had enjoyed that show, way back when.

Charlie Wayne
03-25-2015, 11:32 AM
I don't get the RICO part. So what if the company orders stuff from out of state? It would be pretty hard to for any non-trivial business not to. That doesn't make every fraud case a federal RICO matter. At the very least, the company they are ordering from would have to be in on the conspiracy. The other lawyers would laugh themselves silly at the suggestion of RICO based on an ordinary billing slip.

People don't recognize and know Micheal McKean (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0571106/?ref_=tt_cl_t5)? Amazing. So many, many roles. One early favorite: the evil boss in Dream On.

He and David "Squiggy" Lander did stand up together, complete with "Lenny and The Squigtones" musical bits. They also appeared together in other things such as Used Cars. Alas, David has MS and is not as active as he used to be. But he is a scout for the Angels.


I didn't know the Hells Angels used scouts. Amazing!

I think the RICO thing was just about the fact that certain kinds of fraud cases are open to much bigger damages. But it depends on several other things and so it is not as big a deal. Specifically, the company has to be making enough money to make the law suit feasible and attractive.

P.S. I was just kidding about the Hells Angels. I'm guessing you meant the California Angels.

Pashnish Ewing
03-25-2015, 11:38 AM
They probably meant "Alpine Shepherd Boy-o" and it was a typo somehow.I think they should have called the ep "Gelatin-based Dessert" or something of the like.

Jesse threatens that anyone who snitches to the DEA will end up dead. Saul asked why didn't they just kill Badger. Jesse said that's not an option.

Kind of evil in a way ....I also remember a few suggested "trips to Belize"

Nuveena
03-25-2015, 12:03 PM
I think it was money that her husband/Mike's son stashed from his shady police practices. She found it after his death.
She thought that's where it came from, but Mike told her his son was clean. The money actually came from Mike himself.

Don't Panic
03-25-2015, 12:11 PM
She thought that's where it came from, but Mike told her his son was clean. The money actually came from Mike himself.
No, it didn't. Mike convinced his son to take the money. The kid was clean... until Mike flipped him to the dark side.

And they killed him anyway.

DrCube
03-25-2015, 02:20 PM
No, it didn't. Mike convinced his son to take the money. The kid was clean... until Mike flipped him to the dark side.

And they killed him anyway.

I'm unsure about that. She found the money after Mike left, not when Matt died. And Mike's whole story line, ended in Breaking Bad, beginning here, is that he works for criminals in order to give money to his granddaughter. So I can see that being his first attempt. But I don't think we've been explicitly told whose money that was yet. It could have been Matty's. It could have belonged to the two crooked cops Mike killed. Or it could have been Mike's crooked savings from the force.

Fear Itself
03-25-2015, 02:25 PM
I'm unsure about that. She found the money after Mike left, not when Matt died. And Mike's whole story line, ended in Breaking Bad, beginning here, is that he works for criminals in order to give money to his granddaughter. So I can see that being his first attempt. But I don't think we've been explicitly told whose money that was yet. It could have been Matty's. It could have belonged to the two crooked cops Mike killed. Or it could have been Mike's crooked savings from the force.Mike told her his son took the money. Why would he say that if it wasn't true?

SykoSkotty
03-25-2015, 02:26 PM
The money came from Matty but he hid it because he was conflicted. Mike convinced him not to go to Internal Affairs. Once his two dirty partners found out that Matty wasn't 100% on board, the off'd him.

Don't Panic
03-25-2015, 02:29 PM
Mike told her his son took the money. Why would he say that if it wasn't true?
Exactly.

I've been reading these episode threads for this show, and I'm puzzled about how quickly people's minds seem to run off into zebra territory. It's not that hard to follow.

DrCube
03-25-2015, 03:20 PM
Mike told her his son took the money. Why would he say that if it wasn't true?

I'm not saying Matt didn't take the money. Certainly he did. I believe Mike's tearful story. I just don't know if the money he took was the same money his wife later found.

My impression was Matt took a little percentage, shared by the other crooked cops, of a drug dealer's money in return for looking the other way. I don't know if the large stack of bills his wife found is the same bribe. Mike would have been a lot wealthier if he had been getting thousands a week from drug dealers his whole career.

And maybe it wasn't a weekly thing, it was a whole years' worth of bribes that Matt took. Maybe it was his money his wife found. I'm just saying it wasn't conclusively shown to be his yet, and there are other possibilities.

DrCube
03-25-2015, 03:28 PM
Exactly.

I've been reading these episode threads for this show, and I'm puzzled about how quickly people's minds seem to run off into zebra territory. It's not that hard to follow.

Well, there's a straightforward reading of the story. And then there are the wild twists that show up in the next week's plot. I'm just spitballing ideas because that's what makes these thread fun. Predicting the next curveball.

The fact that it wasn't conclusively shown to be Matty's money leaves open the possibility that Mike snuck it into her luggage before she left Philly for New Mexico. It is certainly consistent with his character. Matty might have thrown his away because he felt guilty. Or maybe the straight reading is correct, and Mike's son is who first gave him the idea to attempt getting ill-gotten cash to his granddaughter. Or some third thing.

Every time we think we know something about where this show is going, it switches gears and zigs when we predicted zag. I'm just trying to play along.

Ellis Dee
03-25-2015, 04:39 PM
I'm unsure about that. She found the money after Mike left, not when Matt died.Why do you say that? The way I remember the scene, she said she found the money days after Matt died.

Don't Panic
03-25-2015, 04:44 PM
Every time we think we know something about where this show is going, it switches gears and zigs when we predicted zag. I'm just trying to play along.
Oh. Maybe I was missing the point, then. Well, don't let me ruin your fun. I just thought this was about, you know, the actual plot. ;)

ftg
03-25-2015, 04:51 PM
I didn't know the Hells Angels used scouts. Amazing!

...

P.S. I was just kidding about the Hells Angels. I'm guessing you meant the California Angels.

Actually, I meant The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.:)

Omar Little
03-25-2015, 05:02 PM
I wonder if Sandpiper Crossing nursing homes get sold to settle the $20MM obligation and rebranded as Casa Tranquila where Hector Salamanca goes to live?

soonerblue
03-25-2015, 07:03 PM
Why do you say that? The way I remember the scene, she said she found the money days after Matt died.

Now you've made me curious. Wiki sez - "At his home, Mike goes through the detectives' notes, and discovers that Stacey was the one that called the detectives to Albuquerque. She tells Mike that she discovered several thousand dollars hidden in one of her suitcases, and decided to report it, hoping that it would help lead to the capture of Matty's killer. She believes Matty might be dirty, which angers Mike, who maintains Matty was not dirty and storms out of the house in anger."

Later he came back to give his heartbreaking "I broke my boy" monolog ...how he told him to take the money, to 'go along to get along' because he was afraid for Matty's life if he waited too long to take the money ...Matty took the money and the bastards killed him anyway.

Oh. How. I. Love. This. Show. Better even than Breaking Bad, which I thought was excellent artistic TV.

SlackerInc
03-25-2015, 08:54 PM
Jesse threatens that anyone who snitches to the DEA will end up dead. Saul asked why didn't they just kill Badger. Jesse said that's not an option.

Kind of evil in a way ....

I don't consider it evil, because he was trying to shift the spotlight of a couple masked criminals with guns from targeting him to targeting their own criminal associate. If he suggested that when his own life wasn't on the line, then okay.

Exactly.

I've been reading these episode threads for this show, and I'm puzzled about how quickly people's minds seem to run off into zebra territory. It's not that hard to follow.

I agree in general, though I sometimes miss things too (I didn't catch on the first watch that Mike's DIL was trying to shake him down for more cash, as opposed to just thinking out loud). But why do you call it "zebra territory"?

theR
03-25-2015, 09:02 PM
I don't consider it evil, because he was trying to shift the spotlight of a couple masked criminals with guns from targeting him to targeting their own criminal associate. If he suggested that when his own life wasn't on the line, then okay.



I agree in general, though I sometimes miss things too (I didn't catch on the first watch that Mike's DIL was trying to shake him down for more cash, as opposed to just thinking out loud). But why do you call it "zebra territory"?

Probably referring to, "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses not zebras."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_%28medicine%29

SlackerInc
03-25-2015, 09:05 PM
Ahhh...hadn't heard of that, but it makes sense. (Depends on where you live though.)

Don't Panic
03-25-2015, 11:06 PM
If not for the reputation of Breaking Bad this show would have been moving too slowly to catch on.
It's interesting. The show is written like it has nothing to prove. Which, I suppose, it hasn't, so it's all good.

Go back and have a look at some of the early Breaking Bad now. Compared to this show, sometimes it feels a bit like BB is running around with its pants on its head, shouting: "Look at me, pay attention to me!" Absolutely freaking awesome, but, well, also so very insecure. Especially the pilot and the first few episodes.

This show? It's chill. It doesn't give a shit. It doesn't do insecure.

Not saying it's better than BB, at all. But it's confident, I'll give it that. And it shows that you don't always need big booms or flashy tricks. An old guy on a lawn dropping a box of papers just put me as far out on the edge of my seat as any number of exploding grandpas could. Somehow I guess it sucked me in.

I'm still not really buying Jimmy as being the same guy as Saul. There's a dissonance there, for me at least. But it's still damned good writing.

splatterpunk
03-25-2015, 11:35 PM
I'm still not really buying Jimmy as being the same guy as Saul. There's a dissonance there, for me at least. But it's still damned good writing.

My guess is that Better Call Saul is exactly about getting Jimmy there. I have no doubt that Gilligan will pull it off.

soonerblue
03-26-2015, 06:24 AM
[QUOTE=SlackerInc;18237775]I don't consider it evil, because he was trying to shift the spotlight of a couple masked criminals with guns from targeting him to targeting their own criminal associate. If he suggested that when his own life wasn't on the line, then okay.....

Yes, now that you put that way, I agree. Reading his dialog words is so different than watching silver-tongue Saul fast-talk for his life ...that's exactly why he would've said something like that.

Don't get me wrong, I am sympathetic toward Jimmy, who IMO just wants to lead a good life, fulfill his dreams, please everybody and gain the approval of his brother and Kim. I root for him and cheer him on like I never did Walt.

When Chuck said, "As what?" to Jimmy’s request of considering hiring him, the look on Jimmy's face broke my heart.

At this point in his life Jimmy struggles to do the right thing, when his instinct tells him how easy it is to do the wrong thing - the instinct of a crackerjack legal mind I might add - but is knocked down every time.

With every episode we see another nail in Jimmy McGill’s coffin, as dark Saul Goodman gets stronger. All he needs is a break, a break he'll never get. Yes, we do know how this ends, but the journey getting there is fascinating.

In Vince Gilligan I trust ... love his fertile, twisty, often diabolically funny mind. We never know what's coming next.

SlackerInc
03-26-2015, 07:35 AM
It's interesting. The show is written like it has nothing to prove. Which, I suppose, it hasn't, so it's all good.

Go back and have a look at some of the early Breaking Bad now. Compared to this show, sometimes it feels a bit like BB is running around with its pants on its head, shouting: "Look at me, pay attention to me!" Absolutely freaking awesome, but, well, also so very insecure. Especially the pilot and the first few episodes.

This show? It's chill. It doesn't give a shit. It doesn't do insecure.

That's a really good point. And it's a rare luxury, as the exigencies of the TV business require most showrunners to be insecure and try to catch viewers' attention right out of the gate or risk losing them forever. The only show currently running I can think of right now that doesn't bother with that at all is an excellent program called Rectify that airs on the Sundance Channel. It has a couple Breaking Bad producers at the helm, in fact; but unlike BCS, it gets microscopic ratings (viewership in the low hundreds of thousands IIRC). Yet it still has been renewed for a third season, so go figure.

SykoSkotty
03-26-2015, 08:20 AM
it's all good.

....man.....

Don't Panic
03-26-2015, 03:27 PM
The only show currently running I can think of right now that doesn't bother with that at all is an excellent program called Rectify that airs on the Sundance Channel. It has a couple Breaking Bad producers at the helm, in fact; but unlike BCS, it gets microscopic ratings (viewership in the low hundreds of thousands IIRC). Yet it still has been renewed for a third season, so go figure.
Now I'm intrigued. I'll check it out.

....man.....
:)

TruCelt
03-26-2015, 04:29 PM
What about the fact that Chuck is out of work on disability? I don't know how different the rules might be for a Partner in the firm, but if I'd done any work while I was out after my back injury it would have been considered proof of fraud. If I could work, I had to cancel the benefits and go back to the office.

I wasn't even allowed to check my e-mails.

So if Chuck is cured, he has to head back in or Hamlin has him by the short hairs, I think. And no way can Jimmy handle this case on his own, let's face it. He's brilliant, but not experienced.

ftg
03-26-2015, 04:36 PM
One scene that amused me was Chuck using Jimmy's fob to open the trunk. I thought: no way would that old beater have a remote opening trunk, and if it did, it stopped working years ago.

Then I put myself in the place of the writers:

1. Chuck needs Jimmy's keys to get into the car.
2. Jimmy doesn't know that Chuck has gone out to the car and needs the keys.
3. Solution: Jimmy's keys are in the mailbox.
4. Problem: Why would Jimmy's keys be in the mailbox?
5. It has a fob!
6. Show the fob being used to make all the above quasi-coherent.

I think Jimmy, on his own, is inherently bad. I.e., he is Saul. But Chuck and Kim have a tremendous influence on him. The decline of Jimmy will presumably be connected to Chuck exiting his life plus a nasty falling out with Kim. (Nastier than their previous breakup.)

Fear Itself
03-26-2015, 05:44 PM
The decline of Jimmy will presumably be connected to Chuck exiting his life plus a nasty falling out with Kim.Not if Kim breaks bad. They need to keep her in the story line for a while. We know Mike can't get killed, nor Jimmy, but Kim and Chuck may be getting the chop eventually.

SlackerInc
03-26-2015, 06:02 PM
Now I'm intrigued. I'll check it out.


:)

First two seasons are streaming on Netflix!

Don't Panic
03-27-2015, 07:35 PM
I don't consider it evil, because he was trying to shift the spotlight of a couple masked criminals with guns from targeting him to targeting their own criminal associate.
[...]
(I didn't catch on the first watch that Mike's DIL was trying to shake him down for more cash, as opposed to just thinking out loud).
That was a good scene, with Mike's DIL and the money. It's a bit blink and you'll miss it, but it shows how short the road to the dark side can be. At least in her case, I don't it's very long at all. Although maybe you don't always know that you're on the dark side.

About Saul: I don't think Saul on BB is evil, but he is an amoral pragmatist. As strange as it sounds, considering who we're talking about here, Saul's most important job on BB was always to be the only sane man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySaneMan). Everyone else always has some justification for what they're doing. It's for the family, for cosmic justice, for whatever. Saul doesn't bother with that, it's just not in his mental makeup. He's more clear-sighted about the world of crime than anyone else on the show.

Which, I suppose, is one reason why I still don't buy Jimmy becoming Saul. I don't really see that with Jimmy, although he does have some of it, like his "who the hell am I really kidding" moment when he tries to justify the bribe from the Kettlemans in his records. I suppose I'm not sure if that's a kind of person you become, rather than just who you are.

I dunno. I guess we'll see what happens.

Don't Panic
03-27-2015, 07:46 PM
Too late for edit: I guess what I mean is that, on BB, no one seems less in need of an "explanation" or an "origin story" than Saul. Sure, his name is fake and his law business is a sham. But at the end of the day, no one is more no-nonsense than Saul.

soonerblue
03-28-2015, 12:30 PM
About Saul: I don't think Saul on BB is evil, but he is an amoral pragmatist. As strange as it sounds, considering who we're talking about here, Saul's most important job on BB was always to be the only sane man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySaneMan). Everyone else always has some justification for what they're doing. It's for the family, for cosmic justice, for whatever. Saul doesn't bother with that, it's just not in his mental makeup. He's more clear-sighted about the world of crime than anyone else on the show.

Which, I suppose, is one reason why I still don't buy Jimmy becoming Saul. I don't really see that with Jimmy, although he does have some of it, like his "who the hell am I really kidding" moment when he tries to justify the bribe from the Kettlemans in his records. I suppose I'm not sure if that's a kind of person you become, rather than just who you are.

I dunno. I guess we'll see what happens.

It's interesting how the many facets of Jimmy speak to a lot of us in different ways... we have different impressions of him.

I like early Jimmy and think he has good intentions, but his whole life seems to be one major disappointment after another.

I keep remembering that corner office scene in "Bingo" - Jimmy kicks the closed door, flops down on the floor, almost crying because Kim doesn't share his dream of work and a life together.

He realizes that she doesn't feel the same way about him ... a devastating moment. Yet, he goes on to do the right thing to help her - his risky scheme to have Mike get the money from the Kettlemans and return them to her as clients, restoring her position at HHM.

Then that pr*ck Hamlin went on TV and took credit for it ... but that's another post.

The women I talk to love Jimmy, how caring he is, and how well he treats women. But he's also flawed. He longs to connect with Kim and his brother ... but just can't quite get there, partly because of his own flaws (insecure, scrappy, rough around the edges, fast-talking side-show barker with the instincts of a con-man), and partly because the people around him are trapped by their own problems, and can't see Jimmy in his full humanity. Or love him for who he is ...they always expect more.

I like the way he treated the Hummel lady in "Alpine Shepherd Boy," so patient as she slowly rode the stair chair ...and then the interminable Tim Conway shuffle. Though he looked at his watch, he was nice to her ... even play-flirted back with her - "You do a DNR and I’ll bring the pineapple and the blender" – and he was very careful to make sure the Tow-Headed Twins went to the right family member.

We also see Jimmy’s ethical side when he gave the Sandpiper woman his services for a discounted price due to her financial issues ... and I liked how he came back and knocked on the door to ask her about her "allowance" ... which sounded fishy to him.

I may have him on too high a pedestal, because in a Rolling Stone interview Bob Odenkirk said Jimmy is an earnest, sweet guy whose brain naturally cooks up dishonest solutions to the challenges in front of him.

soonerblue
03-28-2015, 12:33 PM
And another thing ...

From 'reading around' a lot of people wonder if Chuck is really the superhero that Jimmy thinks. When Jimmy found the snag in the nursing home papers, Chuck seemed almost jealous for a second. And when Jimmy shared with Kim that Chuck was partnering with him on the case, she didn't seem glad, she seemed sort of worried.

What does she know? What if Chuck can't stand having anyone - even his brother - "compete" in his territory? Maybe it will be Chuck who will betray Jimmy, take Sandpiper away from him, and start Jimmy's downfall to become Saul.

Just sayin' ... and what if it was Chuck's idea not to hire Jimmy, and he sent Hamlin to tell him .... in the middle of his cake celebration. Dang, what a perfect scene that was...

What the .... ?!?!
03-28-2015, 04:49 PM
And another thing ...

From 'reading around' a lot of people wonder if Chuck is really the superhero that Jimmy thinks. When Jimmy found the snag in the nursing home papers, Chuck seemed almost jealous for a second. And when Jimmy shared with Kim that Chuck was partnering with him on the case, she didn't seem glad, she seemed sort of worried.

What does she know? What if Chuck can't stand having anyone - even his brother - "compete" in his territory? Maybe it will be Chuck who will betray Jimmy, take Sandpiper away from him, and start Jimmy's downfall to become Saul.

Just sayin' ... and what if it was Chuck's idea not to hire Jimmy, and he sent Hamlin to tell him .... in the middle of his cake celebration. Dang, what a perfect scene that was...

All of the possibilities you mention could be true but I don't see the evidence that is mentioned in the first part of your post..... the nursing home attorney seemed to think he was a rock star although he could have been blowing smoke up his ass. The "jealous" looks could have been Chuck remembering the good old days when he wasn't sick and Kim's concern is warranted based on Chuck's sickness even if he was a rock star at one time.

Charlie Wayne
03-28-2015, 05:10 PM
Now I'm intrigued. I'll check it out.


:)

Thank you ever so much.

One of the biggest reasons I read this forum is to discover shows that are not very commonly known. I will check it out too and I'm very happy to have made this discovery. Thank you both very much.

Maybe some day we can start a thread devoted to lesser-known TV shows and movies that are nonetheless excellent.

I was going to list two of them here and now but decided it was just too far "off topic". Sorry. But if anyone is interested, just send me a PM and I'll reply.

SlackerInc
03-29-2015, 06:04 AM
Too late for edit: I guess what I mean is that, on BB, no one seems less in need of an "explanation" or an "origin story" than Saul. Sure, his name is fake and his law business is a sham. But at the end of the day, no one is more no-nonsense than Saul.

I think you make some very good points, but I never saw any evidence that his law business was a sham.

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