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hajario
03-30-2015, 10:59 PM
First of all, kudos to soonerblue for this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18244860&postcount=126) post last week:

From 'reading around' a lot of people wonder if Chuck is really the superhero that Jimmy thinks. When Jimmy found the snag in the nursing home papers, Chuck seemed almost jealous for a second. And when Jimmy shared with Kim that Chuck was partnering with him on the case, she didn't seem glad, she seemed sort of worried.

What does she know? What if Chuck can't stand having anyone - even his brother - "compete" in his territory? Maybe it will be Chuck who will betray Jimmy, take Sandpiper away from him, and start Jimmy's downfall to become Saul.

Just sayin' ... and what if it was Chuck's idea not to hire Jimmy, and he sent Hamlin to tell him .... in the middle of his cake celebration. Dang, what a perfect scene that was...

What a great scene between those two actors at the end. Chuck studied and worked but Jimmy has a natural talent that Jimmy never will. Pure jealousy.

Mike was great too. He's such a pro.

cmyk
03-30-2015, 11:12 PM
This ep was such an amazingly good hour of television.

hajario
03-30-2015, 11:14 PM
What a great scene between those two actors at the end. Chuck studied and worked but Jimmy has a natural talent that Jimmy never will. Pure jealousy.

that Chuck never will

DrCube
03-30-2015, 11:20 PM
Ahem (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18233083). ;)

hajario
03-30-2015, 11:28 PM
Ahem (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18233083). ;)

Very well done. :)

El_Kabong
03-30-2015, 11:34 PM
Wow, that was one of the best hours of TV I've seen since, oh, I don't know, Firefly's "Out of Gas", maybe. While I think everyone could pretty much guess how things were going to go with HHM, Chuck's betrayal, and Jimmy's obvious pain, hit like a punch to the gut, even seeing it coming. That last scene practically had me in tears.

Meanwhile, another gem in the B plot, with Jonathan Banks' hilariously deadpan badassery in the parking garage.

"You want one of these guns?"

Dag Otto
03-30-2015, 11:41 PM
Speaking of well done, this was what I kept thinking while watching tonight:



This show? It's chill. It doesn't give a shit. It doesn't do insecure.



Martian Bigfoot nailed it.

Habeed
03-31-2015, 12:26 AM
This is the best episode of the show so far. The drama when he realizes he's been betrayed.

And Hammlin...you want to hate Hammlin. His smug looks. The lawyery way he refuses to divulge his reasons. You hate someone who acts that way more than if he had the balls to just say "we can't have a lawyer without a higher tier degree at this firm" or "I hate your guts".

As a viewer, I guess I should have realized. When Hammlin says "the partners have decided...", I should have realized that as a 1/3 or so partner, Chuck would have enormous sway for a decision like that.

Chimp with a machine gun, indeed. We know why he changed his name to Saul Goodman now. A pivotal episode.

And, of course, the Mike segment was awesome. I'd say this was the second best Mike episode of the show, and it's a close second to the one where he wasted the 2 homicidal cops.

Don't Panic
03-31-2015, 12:32 AM
Ahem (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18233083). ;)

Very well done. :)
Very well done indeed.

And, yeah. Oh, man. That was one hell of an episode.

CarnalK
03-31-2015, 01:32 AM
Well I sensed this betrayal coming as well. Chuck was always too hesitant in his compliments. The lashing out with the monkey & machine gun thing really hit me though.

Yeah. Great episode. Mike stuff was cool also in the way he is immediately professional as a crook. "Yeah, I looked into this a little on my own time. Plus I'm badass. Totally worth 3 guy's pay".

Critical1
03-31-2015, 03:48 AM
I loved this episode, This is a great show in general.

Don't Panic
03-31-2015, 03:59 AM
Mike stuff was cool also in the way he is immediately professional as a crook. "Yeah, I looked into this a little on my own time. Plus I'm badass. Totally worth 3 guy's pay".
Mike sure knows what he's doing. Maybe we need a backstory to his backstory. ;)

soonerblue
03-31-2015, 06:15 AM
First of all, kudos to soonerblue for this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18244860&postcount=126) post last week:


What a great scene between those two actors at the end. Chuck studied and worked but Jimmy has a natural talent that Jimmy never will. Pure jealousy.

Mike was great too. He's such a pro.


Thanks for the kudos, but DrCube nailed it early on. I didn't really start thinking seriously about Chuck's betrayal until after I'd read several reviews and recaps - I'm obsessed I tell ya!

Yep, Chuck never wanted Jimmy anywhere near HHM - except in the mailroom - he doesn't respect how Jimmy got his law degree, no matter how many years of hard work it took to get it. Jimmy is rough around the edges and just doesn't have the pedigree. Chuck would forever be worried that Slippin’ Jimmy would pop up. "Chimp with a machine gun" sums up his opinion perfectly.

Jimmy has the makin's (that's Okie for talent and drive) to become a formidable laywer, somewhat like his big brother, whose betrayal has now pushed him down a darker road ... the underestimated legal counsel for Criminals with a capital C. Hey, who’s better at recognizing a scam than a former scammer?

It will be interesting to see what final straw causes Jimmy to "break bad" ... he's almost there, maybe something concerning Kim ... but she already broke his heart and dashed his dreams......

Howard might not be the pr*ck I thought he was - breaking a man’s spirit right next to his congratulatory cake. For all we know, Howard might have been happy to hire Jimmy ... he did seem impressed that Jimmy passed the bar, made the "Charlie Hustle" reference ...but then Pete Rose is another talented person who couldn't walk the straight and narrow.

I was impressed that he thought enough of Kim to tell her the truth about who really betrayed Jimmy. Or he was looking on down the road to having to work with a resentful Kim.

Yep, as Jimmy would say, they acted the shit out of that last scene.

I'm barely awake, slugging back coffee ... so much to read, but I always start with this group, so glad I found it, you people have been dropping some major knowledge and insight.

Bumbershoot
03-31-2015, 06:58 AM
Guy who thinks he's a badass: Here, I'll make it easy for you.
Mike: You don't have to make it so easy.

Flander
03-31-2015, 07:44 AM
Kim knew about Chuck (presumably after the meeting with Hamlin) and didn't tell Jimmy. She's his only/best friend and Jimmy may see that as a betrayal, despite the fact that she didn't tell him because she knew how bad it would be. This will be the wedge between Jimmy and Kim.

Fantastic episode. Only one more left?

Qadgop the Mercotan
03-31-2015, 07:52 AM
I love watching Mike at work.

And I actually felt sorry for Howard.

cmyk
03-31-2015, 08:05 AM
Does anyone think now it could be Chuck's guilt that brought on his psychosis?

Charlie Wayne
03-31-2015, 08:05 AM
I'm just guessing but I think the entire premise of this show was stated in this episode.

"You can have good guys and bad guys."

"You can have good criminals and bad criminals."

"You can have good lawyers and bad lawyerss."

Tonight I believe we saw some of each of them and it was fun!

If I'm correct, then Mike will be the star of the show. But since Saul is the star of the show, I must be wrong. Does that make sense? No! it doesn't. Therefore, I must be wrong. Shit! I mean, wrong again! Damn it all to Hell! Why am I always wrong again?

SykoSkotty
03-31-2015, 08:32 AM
I think both Odenkirk and McCean deserve an emmy nod for that last scene.

The look on Jimmy's face - you could almost see his soul being hurt.

Incredible episode - I'm enjoying this show almost as much as Breaking Bad.

cmyk
03-31-2015, 08:43 AM
I think both Odenkirk and McCean deserve an emmy nod for that last scene.

The look on Jimmy's face - you could almost see his soul being hurt.

Incredible episode - I'm enjoying this show almost as much as Breaking Bad.

Couldn't agree more on all your points.

That last scene had me in its clutches.

Malthus
03-31-2015, 08:47 AM
Amazing episode.

I'll freely admit I *didn't* see the twist comming. I thought the break with Chuck would be Jimmy's fault, for taking revenge on the firm.

Kudos to all who predicted it - but this is just what I love about this show: I am usually wrong in my predictions. It doesn't take the obvious path.

Dewey Finn
03-31-2015, 08:52 AM
Now I'm wondering about the scene in which Chuck suggested the $20 million settlement. Jimmy would have been happy to take half a million (or whatever it was that lawyer offered). Did Chuck deliberately raise the stakes so that Jimmy wouldn't be able to handle the case? Is Chuck driven by jealousy; that for Jimmy to succeed cheapens his distinguished profession?

BTW, I was impressed by the number of people at the HHM offices. I had no idea the firm was that big. But why didn't they just meet outdoors somewhere; that would have been easier than turning off all of the electronics.

Charlie Wayne
03-31-2015, 08:53 AM
I couldn't believe the speed at which this epi went by.

It seemed like it started and then 5 minutes later ... it was finished.

I have no idea why it went by so quickly.

But ... it was just .... "Whoosh!" and it was all over.

I just can't imagine why it was over so quickly. Holy Smoke!

Charlie Wayne
03-31-2015, 08:54 AM
Now I'm wondering about the scene in which Chuck suggested the $20 million settlement. Jimmy would have been happy to take half a million (or whatever it was that lawyer offered). Did Chuck deliberately raise the stakes so that Jimmy wouldn't be able to handle the case? Is Chuck driven by jealousy; that for Jimmy to succeed cheapens his distinguished profession?

BTW, I was impressed by the number of people at the HHM offices. I had no idea the firm was that big. But why didn't they just meet outdoors somewhere; that would have been easier than turning off all of the electronics.

Indeed it would!

Malthus
03-31-2015, 08:57 AM
One question for US lawyers: is there any reason Jimmy could not take his amazing surefire case to *another* legal firm, and make a deal?

Throughout the show, Jimmy is treating his brother's firm as if it was the only game in town. If he's being shafted by them, at his brother's behest of for any other reason, why can't he just go to another? At least in Canada, that's what I would have done.

There are plenty of entreprenurial firms that do plaintiff side class action work, and would be happy to make a deal with Jimmy if he had the stuff.

Laggard
03-31-2015, 09:00 AM
Yes, that was the best hour of television I've seen in years. The final scene was heart-breaking.

Sam Lowry
03-31-2015, 09:13 AM
Amazing episode. I had heard that the last two episodes of the season were big, but that was not in a way I was expecting.


And Hammlin...you want to hate Hammlin. His smug looks. The lawyery way he refuses to divulge his reasons. You hate someone who acts that way more than if he had the balls to just say "we can't have a lawyer without a higher tier degree at this firm" or "I hate your guts".

As a viewer, I guess I should have realized. When Hammlin says "the partners have decided...", I should have realized that as a 1/3 or so partner, Chuck would have enormous sway for a decision like that.

Chimp with a machine gun, indeed. We know why he changed his name to Saul Goodman now. A pivotal episode.


Also, Hamlin has been taking all sorts of shit from Jimmy, and putting up with it, even though it's not his fault that Jimmy is mad at him.

And that's a good point about his name. I could see that maybe it won't be just Saul starting up a new business, but wanting to distance himself from his brother.

Thanks for the kudos, but DrCube nailed it early on. I didn't really start thinking seriously about Chuck's betrayal until after I'd read several reviews and recaps - I'm obsessed I tell ya!

Yep, Chuck never wanted Jimmy anywhere near HHM - except in the mailroom - he doesn't respect how Jimmy got his law degree, no matter how many years of hard work it took to get it. Jimmy is rough around the edges and just doesn't have the pedigree. Chuck would forever be worried that Slippin’ Jimmy would pop up. "Chimp with a machine gun" sums up his opinion perfectly.


I don't know if it's just worry about Slippin' Jimmy, it seems to be a somewhat classic case of sibling rivalry. Jimmy is fairly younger than Chuck, maybe he was coddled more as the baby brother, and Chuck was resentful.

It's an interesting relationship. If he was just truly worried about the damage that Jimmy could do, I would think he'd be more honest and upfront and tell him from the beginning that they couldn't have a former scam artist with a law degree from an online law school work at HHM. But instead he made someone else be the bad guy.

And at the meeting with at the office, when Hamlin said Jimmy couldn't work there, and Chuck was making incredulous faces and noises, you see that Chuck is really committed to the charade.

Speaking of the offer, do any law types know how reasonable it was? The $20,000 now and the almost guaranteed money in the future doesn't sound too terrible to me, but I know that it's the principle of the thing for Jimmy that made him upset. I wonder if he's still going to take the deal; he said he was at the end but that was to bait Chuck.

Does anyone think now it could be Chuck's guilt that brought on his psychosis?

I was wondering if they're going to show what happened to cause that. I think Chuck has been out of the office for 18 months now, when was it that Jimmy got his law degree? I don't think the guilt is the direct cause of the psychosis, but Chuck has an interesting layer of a lot of things going on.

I'm just guessing but I think the entire premise of this show was stated in this episode.

"You can have good guys and bad guys."

"You can have good criminals and bad criminals."

"You can have good lawyers and bad lawyerss."

Tonight I believe we saw some of each of them and it was fun!


Yeah, Mike was amazing tonight. And that was definitely the premise of Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad. I wonder when we'll see Nacho again.

I think both Odenkirk and McCean deserve an emmy nod for that last scene.

The look on Jimmy's face - you could almost see his soul being hurt.



That was painful, seeing Jimmy hurt like that. How he didn't have a response, other than to say what he had brought and that he was leaving.

Dewey Finn
03-31-2015, 09:21 AM
BTW, in a previous thread someone quoted Vince Gilligan or one of the writers as saying that Kim is Jimmy's ex-wife. But she described herself (or Hamlin described her) as Jimmy's friend here. I'd think they would have said exe if she had been married to Jimmy.

AK84
03-31-2015, 09:29 AM
I have been in Hamlins position. Being the bearer of bad news because someone else does not have the balls to do it himself, although I was a Senior Associate, not a partner.

You always end up being blunt and hurtful.

Sam Lowry
03-31-2015, 09:50 AM
One question for US lawyers: is there any reason Jimmy could not take his amazing surefire case to *another* legal firm, and make a deal?

Throughout the show, Jimmy is treating his brother's firm as if it was the only game in town. If he's being shafted by them, at his brother's behest of for any other reason, why can't he just go to another? At least in Canada, that's what I would have done.

There are plenty of entreprenurial firms that do plaintiff side class action work, and would be happy to make a deal with Jimmy if he had the stuff.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think Jimmy could have taken the suit to another firm in ABQ, but I'm not sure how it would go. From that meeting with the other law firm, Chuck is obviously a well known and respected lawyer. And HHM is a big law firm. I'm not sure if another firm would see the case and think it sounds good, or be suspicious about why HHM isn't taking it and thinking there must be something wrong. Thinking "if this is such a good, profitable case, then why didn't this guy's brother and his firm take it? This guy is probably crazy." Or maybe another firm would not want to take it because they don't want to make an enemy of HHM.

If Jimmy went to another city or state, there wouldn't be the baggage of having the connected to HHM, but that would be difficult too. He doesn't exactly have a lot of disposable income at the moment to travel to other places and pitch his case and hope another firm picks it up.

But I'm not a lawyer and I don't know how this stuff works, so I'm just guessing.

BTW, in a previous thread someone quoted Vince Gilligan or one of the writers as saying that Kim is Jimmy's ex-wife. But she described herself (or Hamlin described her) as Jimmy's friend here. I'd think they would have said exe if she had been married to Jimmy.

She could be an ex, but they are still friends, so that's how the identify and describe each other as. Since if you call someone your ex-, that brings different things to mind.

Malthus
03-31-2015, 10:00 AM
I'm not a lawyer, but I think Jimmy could have taken the suit to another firm in ABQ, but I'm not sure how it would go. From that meeting with the other law firm, Chuck is obviously a well known and respected lawyer. And HHM is a big law firm. I'm not sure if another firm would see the case and think it sounds good, or be suspicious about why HHM isn't taking it and thinking there must be something wrong. Thinking "if this is such a good, profitable case, then why didn't this guy's brother and his firm take it? This guy is probably crazy." Or maybe another firm would not want to take it because they don't want to make an enemy of HHM.

If Jimmy went to another city or state, there wouldn't be the baggage of having the connected to HHM, but that would be difficult too. He doesn't exactly have a lot of disposable income at the moment to travel to other places and pitch his case and hope another firm picks it up.

But I'm not a lawyer and I don't know how this stuff works, so I'm just guessing.



I imagine the biggest problem would be simply getting a foot in the door for an initial meeting.

If they see the materials already prepared, presumably they would find them convincing, or at least, a good gamble. Jimmy could then explain why problems with his notoriously crazy brother make working with his brother's firm impossible. Also, it now seems unlikely that the partner actually doing the work at that firm would care - he'd probably be relieved that Jimmy is outta his hair.

But if Jimmy has one thing, it is plenty of brashness and moxie, so getting an initial meeting should not prove impossible.

Frazzled
03-31-2015, 10:02 AM
Kim knew about Chuck (presumably after the meeting with Hamlin) and didn't tell Jimmy. She's his only/best friend and Jimmy may see that as a betrayal, despite the fact that she didn't tell him because she knew how bad it would be. This will be the wedge between Jimmy and Kim.

I think she did tell him. She confronted Howard who made a big issue about it being a partner decision. Then as she was leaving he had her close to door, presumably to tell her what had actually happened. A few scenes later she meets Jimmy at the laundromat where he's telling her what an ass Howard is, only to have her keep quietly trying to tell him to listen to her. Next scene is at Chuck's house. So I think we had a few conversations we know what happened without ever actually hearing them.

Jimmy did mention to Chuck that he figured it out by looking at his phone, probably to keep Kim out of their disagreement.

CarnalK
03-31-2015, 10:05 AM
I think she did tell him. She confronted Howard who made a big issue about it being a partner decision. Then as she was leaving he had her close to door, presumably to tell her what had actually happened. A few scenes later she meets Jimmy at the laundromat where he's telling her what an ass Howard is, only to have her keep quietly trying to tell him to listen to her. Next scene is at Chuck's house. So I think we had a few conversations we know what happened without ever actually hearing them.

Jimmy did mention to Chuck that he figured it out by looking at his phone, probably to keep Kim out of their disagreement.

That's exactly how I interpreted the action.

Eyebrows 0f Doom
03-31-2015, 10:23 AM
I think she did tell him. She confronted Howard who made a big issue about it being a partner decision. Then as she was leaving he had her close to door, presumably to tell her what had actually happened. A few scenes later she meets Jimmy at the laundromat where he's telling her what an ass Howard is, only to have her keep quietly trying to tell him to listen to her. Next scene is at Chuck's house. So I think we had a few conversations we know what happened without ever actually hearing them.

Jimmy did mention to Chuck that he figured it out by looking at his phone, probably to keep Kim out of their disagreement.

After telling Jimmy to take the deal, didn't we then see her leave? :confused: And then Jimmy pulls out his phone and starts to make a call on the landline?

Yes, I just rewatched the scene. She says "Take the deal" and walks out of the laundromat. Jimmy turns around, walks into the back room, and starts looking at his phone. Kim doesn't tell him anything.

DrCube
03-31-2015, 10:23 AM
BTW, in a previous thread someone quoted Vince Gilligan or one of the writers as saying that Kim is Jimmy's ex-wife. But she described herself (or Hamlin described her) as Jimmy's friend here. I'd think they would have said exe if she had been married to Jimmy.

They are definitely ex-somethings. In the flashback last episode, Jimmy brought her his acceptance letter from the bar association, they opened it together, and they had a congratulatory embrace and mouth kiss. Maybe Howard just didn't want to dredge up old wounds by mentioning the word "ex". Or maybe they kept their relationship a secret from the firm?

Kim and Jimmy seem to be fairly close and mostly get along. Besides (or along with) Chuck, Kim is definitely Jimmy's closest friend and confidant on the show. So I really wonder what caused them to split up. Maybe her staying at HHM after Jimmy was rejected caused a temporary falling out?

In fact now I'm wondering if she slept with Hamlin at some point. :/ But I'm not seeing any of that in their behavior towards each other. So maybe that's a dead end. Breaking Bad and BCS both are almost unbelievably lacking in the "sex sells" gimmicks most other shows find mandatory. A few awkward sex scenes between Walter and Skyler, and a few of Jane in her underwear in Breaking Bad. That's about it for both shows. I don't think I've seen a single gratuitous sex scene or sex object in Better Call Saul. It's refreshing actually.

Sam Lowry
03-31-2015, 10:30 AM
I imagine the biggest problem would be simply getting a foot in the door for an initial meeting.

If they see the materials already prepared, presumably they would find them convincing, or at least, a good gamble. Jimmy could then explain why problems with his notoriously crazy brother make working with his brother's firm impossible. Also, it now seems unlikely that the partner actually doing the work at that firm would care - he'd probably be relieved that Jimmy is outta his hair.

But if Jimmy has one thing, it is plenty of brashness and moxie, so getting an initial meeting should not prove impossible.

That's true. Jimmy could have hustled and maybe worked with another firm, but not after being crushed by Chuck like that. If he hadn't figured out that Chuck was behind him not being hired, then Jimmy might have called up some other firms.

After telling Jimmy to take the deal, didn't we then see her leave? :confused: And then Jimmy pulls out his phone and starts to make a call on the landline?

Yeah, she left, he goes to his office looking exhausted, starts his cell phone charging, and starts to make a call on his landline. I don't know if Kim wanted to explain what the deal with Chuck was, or didn't want to because it would hurt Jimmy too much, but she didn't do it then.

Malthus
03-31-2015, 11:10 AM
The issue is whether he called her up & they talked offscreen (and she spilled the beans about his brother) - or whether he figured it out by contacting the phone company, like he told his brother.

We will probably find out next episode, when the two of them interact again.

Spoke
03-31-2015, 11:14 AM
One question for US lawyers: is there any reason Jimmy could not take his amazing surefire case to *another* legal firm, and make a deal?

He could do that, and in the real world, that's exactly what he would do. HHM would still be entitled to an equitable share of the fee, to be determined, based on Chuck's input. But yeah, if I were sitting in Jimmy's seat I would have just said, "Well, this ain't the only law firm in town."

Sam Lowry
03-31-2015, 11:14 AM
Also, now that it seems that HHM was never the bad guy, what was the deal in the first episode with the checks that HHM was sending and that Jimmy was tearing up? Was it just the normal salary, everything above board, and Chuck let Jimmy tear them up rather than admit that he was the bad guy? It had seemed in the first few episodes that HHM was trying to be sneaky about something about Chuck's partnership, and Jimmy was mad as hell at them, but it turns out that Hamlin has great respect for Chuck and doesn't mind being the bad guy, but I'm not sure what the checks were for then.

Spoke
03-31-2015, 11:17 AM
But if Jimmy has one thing, it is plenty of brashness and moxie, so getting an initial meeting should not prove impossible.
Getting a meeting is easy. You do it like this: "I have a $20 million case."

Malthus
03-31-2015, 11:20 AM
Also, now that it seems that HHM was never the bad guy, what was the deal in the first episode with the checks that HHM was sending and that Jimmy was tearing up? Was it just the normal salary, everything above board, and Chuck let Jimmy tear them up rather than admit that he was the bad guy? It had seemed in the first few episodes that HHM was trying to be sneaky about something about Chuck's partnership, and Jimmy was mad as hell at them, but it turns out that Hamlin has great respect for Chuck and doesn't mind being the bad guy, but I'm not sure what the checks were for then.

In hindsight - perhaps they were just so Chuck could keep the illusion going that he wasn't the bad guy, but that HHM was, and that Jimmy was needed to protect Chuck? In short, Chuck got HHM to issue checks to Jimmy to manipulate Jimmy into "protecting" Chuck from HHM.

Chuck is obviously a deeply disturbed individual, with a lot invested in his perverse relationship with his brother - much of his behaviour seems to be motivated, conciously or not, by his deep need to manipulate Jimmy.

One wonders what will happen to him if Jimmy actually cuts contact.

Malthus
03-31-2015, 11:22 AM
Getting a meeting is easy. You do it like this: "I have a $20 million case."

Sure - the difficulty may lie in getting the firm to believe you are serious and not a nut.

jsc1953
03-31-2015, 11:36 AM
Was Chuck's betrayal a surprise? No, not since the scene a few weeks back where he was half-hearted with his pride in Jimmy's accomplishments. And when he snuck out to make the phone call, I knew what he was up to. But it was still an incredibly well-written and well-acted episode. As someone said above, Emmys all around.

I want to watch Mike's disarming of the bigmouth in slo-mo, to see just what he did. :)

cmyk
03-31-2015, 12:25 PM
Was Chuck's betrayal a surprise? No, not since the scene a few weeks back where he was half-hearted with his pride in Jimmy's accomplishments. And when he snuck out to make the phone call, I knew what he was up to. But it was still an incredibly well-written and well-acted episode. As someone said above, Emmys all around.

I want to watch Mike's disarming of the bigmouth in slo-mo, to see just what he did. :)

I've been keeping out of most forums that discuss this show, so I didn't see the betrayal coming until Kim showed up at Jimmy's, after Howard talked with her in private, asking her to come back and close the door.

I was thinking aloud, what could Howard possibly have on Jimmy that would make even Kim come around-- then it hit me, Chuck was pulling the strings on the whole thing... for years even.

Even presently thinking while it was happening that Chuck was up to something sneaky when he went to make the cellphone call... but the next scenes made me think he called Howard to tell him he was coming back, and to prepare the building.

Excellent slight of hand there.

Wow, Chuck went from sympathetic to a jealous coward in nanoseconds. He single-handedly destroyed Jimmy, and will now have the credit for creating Saul. And it all could've been avoided if Chuck would've nurtured him instead of betraying him.

We have ourselves a nice, complicated tragedy, knowing where Jimmy eventually ends up.

MaxTheVool
03-31-2015, 05:51 PM
To agree with the general consensus, this was a near-perfect hour of television. In particular I love what it does to the character of Hamlin, who for all we know is a basically nice guy caught having to do the dirty work of his partner just so his partner can keep up his relationship with his brother.

All the scenes with Mike were super-entertaining. And of course the confrontation between Jimmy and Chuck was a fantastic climax for the season.


And I have close to zero idea what will happen next week in the season finale. Mostly stuff to lay the ground for season 2 I guess? Maybe Nacho will tie Mike and Jimmy back together somehow?

hajario
03-31-2015, 06:09 PM
I doubt that Hamlin is going to screw Jimmy out of his share but he's still an asshole. He still made Kim move to the shitty office over what happened with the Kettlemens. She did an amazing job and got turned down because Mrs K is a psychopath.

carnivorousplant
03-31-2015, 07:26 PM
I watched it tonight. Great television.

soonerblue
03-31-2015, 08:00 PM
Meanwhile, another gem in the B plot, with Jonathan Banks' hilariously deadpan badassery in the parking garage.

"You want one of these guns?"

Badassery ...I like that ...never get all up in Uncle Fester's face and challenge him to take your gun.

Mike: You want a gun?

Big-as-a-mountain guy runs off. That really made me laugh.

Yep, Mike was packin' alright ...packin' cheese ... pimento ... the caviar of the South....

carnivorousplant
03-31-2015, 08:06 PM
Yep, Mike was packin' alright ...packin' cheese ... pimento ... the caviar of the South....

I suspect he had one.
:dubious:

Charlie Wayne
03-31-2015, 08:11 PM
It seems to me that as between the two brothers, it would appear that Jimmy is holding the upper hand. But after some thought, I've decided that is just not true.

It may look like it's Jimmy. But it's actually Chuck. Why?

The reason is that once Chuck identifies the cause of his neuroses and understands them, he will not have any further problems with his brother. At least, he will not have any problems that linger in his mind. Jimmy can still create problems that will hurt him. But Chuck will be able to get out of his house and go to work - just like everyone else.

Chuck will no longer be retricted due to his need for his younger brother's help. Chuck will be free. Or maybe better put, Chuck will learn how to free himself and he will no longer be crippled by his mental condition.

I would be very happy to see Chuck alive and well without any need for his younger brother. I just hope that other folks will feel the same way.

Do you feel the same way?

soonerblue
03-31-2015, 08:18 PM
Can't wait to binge watch all of these episodes ...back-to-back-to-back.

BTW - On one of those Youtube podcasts Patrick Fabian - the actor who plays Howard - admits that when he got the BCS job he hadn't seen any Breaking Bad episodes ...life had been busy with work, etc. So, before starting work on BCS he and his wife - parents of a newborn - started to binge-watch every season of BB ... said they were hooked after one episode, and would watch late into the night ... "it was like cocaine, wanna do one more?"

If anyone finds a place that sells "The University of American Samoa ... Go, Land Crabs!" T-shirts, let me know.

I dread the last episode next week, and also long for it ... wouldn't dare try to guess what's going to happen, just know it'll be a dramatic cliff-hanger.

I keep wondering who the other Hamlin is ....

Me ... dangerous as a chimp with a computer

carnivorousplant
03-31-2015, 08:39 PM
Do you feel the same way?

Nope.
Chuck is an asshole. His brother saw him through a very difficult mental problem, and Chuck screwed him.

LawMonkey
03-31-2015, 08:50 PM
If anyone finds a place that sells "The University of American Samoa ... Go, Land Crabs!" T-shirts, let me know.


Google "university American Samoa shirt".

Anyway, Hamlin... huh. He was on the insider podcast a few weeks back, and ISTR he made a comment about how we were only seeing his character from Jimmy's POV, and that from his own point of view, everything he's doing makes perfect sense and isn't an act of utter douchebaggery. As someone points out above, this doesn't excuse how he treated Kim earlier in the series over the Kettleman affair*, but it does put everything he's done to Jimmy into perspective.

* Speaking of, as a former biglaw associate myself, that doesn't make a lot of sense. I spent my first year sharing an office; after that, I got my own office. There was really no where to send me even if they'd wanted to; it would've been really weird to stick me at a secretary's desk or something.

cmyk
03-31-2015, 09:14 PM
I listened to the same podcast with the actor who plays Hamlin. And while it's true a lot of the douchey stuff he's been doing, has really been because Chuck ordered him to, he has done incredible douchey stuff on his own.

Like when Kim lost the Kettlemans as clients, Howard immediately moved her to a shitty office. As soon as she got them back (thanks to Jimmy going way out of his way), he gives her her old office back again. Who does that other than Doucheus Maximus?

But still, Chuck trumps him now, hands down. What he did to Jimmy and using Howard as his douche-piece was the lowest of lows.

Don't Panic
03-31-2015, 09:25 PM
I suppose Hamlin's precise level of resemblance to a device for the cleaning of bodily orifices can be debated, but he's certainly someone who believes that it's better to be feared than to be loved.

SuperNelson
03-31-2015, 10:04 PM
Amazing episode.

I'll freely admit I *didn't* see the twist comming. I thought the break with Chuck would be Jimmy's fault, for taking revenge on the firm.

Kudos to all who predicted it - but this is just what I love about this show: I am usually wrong in my predictions. It doesn't take the obvious path.

I saw it from a mile away, and it still broke my heart. Amazing.

Joey P
03-31-2015, 10:14 PM
If anyone finds a place that sells "The University of American Samoa ... Go, Land Crabs!" T-shirts, let me know.

http://www.bettercallsaulstore.com/university-of-american-samoa-t-shirt/details/46470711?feature-name=featured&feature=29727510
Nope.
Chuck is an asshole. His brother saw him through a very difficult mental problem, and Chuck screwed him.

Just to be clear, though, Chuck screwed him long before he [Check] has a mental issue as well. Check kept him in the mail room when he first got his degree.

Spoke
03-31-2015, 10:24 PM
http://www.bettercallsaulstore.com/university-of-american-samoa-t-shirt/details/46470711?feature-name=featured&feature=29727510

Love the Latin motto: I shall either find a way or make one.

Flander
03-31-2015, 10:32 PM
http://www.bettercallsaulstore.com/university-of-american-samoa-t-shirt/details/46470711?feature-name=featured&feature=29727510

"I shall either find a way or make one".

Apropos

ETA: Spoke Ninja'd me while I formatted!

Joey P
03-31-2015, 10:32 PM
Here's another site (https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/149383-bcs-university-of-american-samoa-law-school) selling it as well. Works out to just about the same price, but you can pick the color. They also have page after page after page (https://www.teepublic.com/tees/better+call+saul?page=1) of other BCS shirts.

(ETA, only the first 4 or 5 pages are BCS related, but still, there's some good ones in there)

coremelt
04-01-2015, 01:13 AM
Does anyone else think they've painted themselves a bit into a corner as far as Mike's abilities go?

He's been well established as ultimate bad ass, to a ridiculous degree. As a result there is never any dramatic tension, because Mike is simply unbeatable in any situation involving violence or stealth. Not really buying it from his background either, supposedly he's been a dirty cop for many years. The training he has seems more like someone that was special forces or something else...

Kind of doubt that ordinary beat cops get anywhere near his level of skill even after being on the force many years.

Tamerlane
04-01-2015, 02:25 AM
As a result there is never any dramatic tension,

Well, that is sort of a danger inherently built into the show, it being a spin-off prequel and all. For very many viewers there is a handicap in knowing exactly where some characters are going to end up. In those cases the journey has to be the destination and from a writing standpoint that's quite a tightrope to walk, dramatically. To its credit so far I think BCS has been pretty successful in making that concept work.

Fuzzy_wuzzy
04-01-2015, 02:32 AM
Does anyone else think they've painted themselves a bit into a corner as far as Mike's abilities go?

He's been well established as ultimate bad ass, to a ridiculous degree. As a result there is never any dramatic tension, because Mike is simply unbeatable in any situation involving violence or stealth. Not really buying it from his background either, supposedly he's been a dirty cop for many years. The training he has seems more like someone that was special forces or something else...

Kind of doubt that ordinary beat cops get anywhere near his level of skill even after being on the force many years.

To be honest I don't really care about that. Walter White was a middle aged teacher. Within an episode or two he was a killing machine in the gangster underworld. I think the secondary characters are so good that we care about them. The guy supplying the pills for example. A number of these minor but enjoyable characters will get bumped off to maintain the tension.

Mr Shine
04-01-2015, 04:44 AM
Well, that is sort of a danger inherently built into the show, it being a spin-off prequel and all. For very many viewers there is a handicap in knowing exactly where some characters are going to end up. In those cases the journey has to be the destination and from a writing standpoint that's quite a tightrope to walk, dramatically. To its credit so far I think BCS has been pretty successful in making that concept work.

Aren't there going to be scenes in all 3 time periods, (pre, during and post BB). All we've seen of post BB is him reliving his memories through the VHS tape, but I think they're going to expand that at some point aren't they?

cmyk
04-01-2015, 07:35 AM
Aren't there going to be scenes in all 3 time periods, (pre, during and post BB). All we've seen of post BB is him reliving his memories through the VHS tape, but I think they're going to expand that at some point aren't they?

It might be interesting if they explored more post-BB. But I doubt it. I'm not saying they couldn't pull it off, being the brilliant writers they are, but he's supposed to be in indefinite hiding, scared shitless from who he was involved with because of Walter White.

He certainly won't become Saul again, let alone move back to New Mexico.

theR
04-01-2015, 10:03 AM
The issue is whether he called her up & they talked offscreen (and she spilled the beans about his brother) - or whether he figured it out by contacting the phone company, like he told his brother.

We will probably find out next episode, when the two of them interact again.

My interpretation was that the call he made in his office immediately after talking to Kim was to the phone company. It matches what he said to Chuck perfectly. He told Chuck that he knew he had turned off his phone so he checked with the phone company. Kim's warning probably also made him suspicious, but I'll be a little surprised if they show a conversation where Kim tells Jimmy about Chuck when they didn't include it in this episode.

The actress portraying Kim actually did a great job in that scene. I believed completely that she was trying to hint to Jimmy something sneaky was going on without explicitly saying what.

Malthus
04-01-2015, 10:10 AM
My interpretation was that the call he made in his office immediately after talking to Kim was to the phone company. It matches what he said to Chuck perfectly. He told Chuck that he knew he had turned off his phone so he checked with the phone company. Kim's warning probably also made him suspicious, but I'll be a little surprised if they show a conversation where Kim tells Jimmy about Chuck when they didn't include it in this episode.

The actress portraying Kim actually did a great job in that scene. I believed completely that she was trying to hint to Jimmy something sneaky was going on without explicitly saying what.

If he was suspicious, and found out that Chuck called H., why would he not call Kim? Like he told his brother, he would then know for sure that he had unfairly insulted her, basically his only friend, when she was trying to help him.

At the least, he'd want to apologize; at the same time, he'd confirm that his suspicions were correct.

Athabasca
04-01-2015, 10:14 AM
Along with The Americans thread on this board, lots of good reading material.

I think Chuck is going to suffer big time for his betrayal of Jimmy. Either he blows up his house with all those gas canisters, or he starts a slow but epic decline into further mental illness.

About his electronic gadget allergy, meh, part of me looks at Chuck as a kind of attention-grabbing little kid. This is how he kept Jimmy in line, by assigning Jimmy to menial tasks, or blocking Jimmys path in general, by keeping him in the mailroom, denying him the benefit of the Sandpiper case and ultimately, making sure Jimmy would never see his law career blossom. Sure, Chuck is always there to remind Jimmy that his days as a grifter will always haunt him, but deep down, Chuck was insecure and needed Jimmy to stay rooted in place, as his caregiver, for example. Meanwhile, Jimmy chafes at these strictures, and for such good reason. Jimmy is talented in a way that Chuck couldn't touch.

So now, Jimmy has turned his back on Chuck, but he's in a no win situation. I think Chuck deserves to be abandoned, but Jimmy will find it too tempting, as we know, to go for the easy con.

It's so sad, really, but absolutely riveting.

I love this show.

Jack of Words
04-01-2015, 11:36 AM
Maybe Nacho will tie Mike and Jimmy back together somehow?

That'll do, then just at the last moment Nacho's employer that Mike mentioned shows up...Gustavo Fring.

Spoke
04-01-2015, 11:52 AM
I am confused about what Jimmy is going to do with his case. This week he talked about "blowing up the case," and in the previews it looks like he is not pursuing it, but is going back to his routine of calling bingo games.

Is he just abandoning the claims? Because that's kind of a big no-no once you have undertaken representation of someone.

hajario
04-01-2015, 11:54 AM
I think that he's taking the deal. He gets $20k (?) up front and then 20% when it's done.

dasmoocher
04-01-2015, 12:00 PM
That'll do, then just at the last moment Nacho's employer that Mike mentioned shows up...Gustavo Fring.

Nacho works for Tuco, right? Maybe Gus is supplying Tuco, though.

Joey P
04-01-2015, 12:06 PM
That'll do, then just at the last moment Nacho's employer that Mike mentioned shows up...Gustavo Fring.

Nacho works for Tuco, not Gus.

ETA, I see I got Ninja'd (by 6 minutes since I walked away from my computer).

Gatopescado
04-01-2015, 12:27 PM
I want to watch Mike's disarming of the bigmouth in slo-mo, to see just what he did. :)

I only watched it the one time, but it looked like he punched the dude in the throat (which is pretty incapacitating if done correctly) after grabbing his gun.

I like to assume the confrontation went down the way it did was because the younger guy was really just a wanna-be blow-hard rather than Mike being some kind of Uber BadAss. Makes it a little more believable to me.

jsc1953
04-01-2015, 12:39 PM
I only watched it the one time, but it looked like he punched the dude in the throat (which is pretty incapacitating if done correctly) after grabbing his gun.

That's exactly what he did; but it's the gun-grabbing that I was curious about. How do you just reach out and take a gun from someone who is expecting you to do just that?

Joey P
04-01-2015, 12:43 PM
That's exactly what he did; but it's the gun-grabbing that I was curious about. How do you just reach out and take a gun from someone who is expecting you to do just that?

Maybe he wasn't exactly expecting some little old man that's standing around with a pimento sandwich, shuffling his feet, not even smart enough to bring a gun to a protection job to actually try and do that.
On top of that, Mike knows* this guy isn't going to shoot him in a parking garage so what's the worst that's going to happen, he get's a little roughed up if things go wrong and this guy is as big of a badass as he is?


*Mike knows? Mike assumes? I don't know.

Sampiro
04-01-2015, 12:47 PM
Has it been addressed whether Gilligan named Hamlin after Harry Hamlin (who played the pretty boy lawyer on L.A. LAW)?

Michael McKean has only grown as an actor for his entire career. Another "he is incredible on this series", and it's also probably his best role in a long career.

Doug K.
04-01-2015, 12:48 PM
That's exactly what he did; but it's the gun-grabbing that I was curious about. How do you just reach out and take a gun from someone who is expecting you to do just that?

I think the implication was that Mike could tell he was all talk and didn't really know how to use his toys. He did have an unknown amount of time to size the guy up while waiting for their employer.

MaxTheVool
04-01-2015, 12:48 PM
That'll do, then just at the last moment Nacho's employer that Mike mentioned shows up...Gustavo Fring.

Believe me, I'm always keeping an eye on the opening credits for "Special Guest Star Giancarlo Esposito".

I feel like we'll definitely have some scene set at a Pollo Hermanos at some point just to tease the Breaking Bad fans.

SykoSkotty
04-01-2015, 12:52 PM
Since the next episode is the season finale, I'm hoping we'll get another scene of present day Cinnabon manager.....just to see if it's going to go anywhere, plot-wise.

Sampiro
04-01-2015, 12:59 PM
That'll do, then just at the last moment Nacho's employer that Mike mentioned shows up...Gustavo Fring.

I can't imagine Gustavo would ever meet with him in public.
He wouldn't want to lose face.;)

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 01:16 PM
Does Saul have money made from Breaking Bad stashed somewhere to hide on?

Joey P
04-01-2015, 01:19 PM
Believe me, I'm always keeping an eye on the opening credits for "Special Guest Star Giancarlo Esposito".

I feel like we'll definitely have some scene set at a Pollo Hermanos at some point just to tease the Breaking Bad fans.

When Tuco was on they had to get not only his permission but his union's permission to keep his name out of the opening credits. It wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing for Gus.

From what I understand, with an actor even as big as Tuco, SAG (or whomever would take care of these matters) requires his name to be at the beginning of the show. Vince & Crew managed to get it changed to keep his appearance a surprise. You'll notice the name Tuco didn't even show up. Nacho said that he didn't even know that he was going to be working with Tuco until the day before he showed up to work. In all the scripts he had to memorize, it just said Mijo.

On the other hand, knowing Gus was going to be on the show, and running it in the teasers and commercials, would bring in a ton of extra viewers.

MaxTheVool
04-01-2015, 02:09 PM
On the other hand, knowing Gus was going to be on the show, and running it in the teasers and commercials, would bring in a ton of extra viewers.

Would it? Are there really people who are Breaking Bad fans, but who just aren't interested in a show with Saul Goodman and Mike, but who WOULD watch a particular episode because of Gus being in it?

I gotta say I'm skeptical.

hajario
04-01-2015, 02:19 PM
Would it? Are there really people who are Breaking Bad fans, but who just aren't interested in a show with Saul Goodman and Mike, but who WOULD watch a particular episode because of Gus being in it?

I gotta say I'm skeptical.

Agreed.

By the way, they are dropping the entire season on Netflix streaming as soon as the last episode airs. Tons of people who missed this the first time around are going to get to watch the whole thing soon. There are going to be a ton of new viewers when Season 2 of this great season starts.

Spoke
04-01-2015, 02:20 PM
That's exactly what he did; but it's the gun-grabbing that I was curious about. How do you just reach out and take a gun from someone who is expecting you to do just that?

Looked like he did something akin to this (https://youtu.be/cmQk3DnTcSs).

Joey P
04-01-2015, 02:20 PM
Would it? Are there really people who are Breaking Bad fans, but who just aren't interested in a show with Saul Goodman and Mike, but who WOULD watch a particular episode because of Gus being in it?

I gotta say I'm skeptical.

I don't know, maybe. At the very least it might make some people say 'Ohhh, Gus is on this episode, I can't wait to see it" and watch it when it's on instead of sometime in the next few days. From what I've heard (both from Vince and other celebrities over the years), it makes a difference if you watch it live vs if you watch it at a different time.

I remember some other celeb saying something like 'please watch [some show] live, not the next day'. She might have even said 'within two hours', but I could be making that up. A few weeks ago Vince half jokingly asked his viewers to not only watch the show live, but to watch the commercials twice.


Anyways, what about viewers who watched Breaking Bad but not BCS, maybe knowing that Gus (or Jesse if/when that happens) is going to be on is the final straw that's going to get them to start watching.

DrCube
04-01-2015, 02:26 PM
Does Saul have money made from Breaking Bad stashed somewhere to hide on?

I think that was implied. It's been awhile since I saw the last season of Breaking Bad, though, so I could be misremembering.

Speaking of Gus, did the meeting spot for Nacho and Mike look an awful lot like the chicken farm in BB or is it just me? I'm not sure it was exactly the same, but maybe this is before Gus buys it and turns it into a cartel conference space?

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 02:32 PM
From what I've heard (both from Vince and other celebrities over the years), it makes a difference if you watch it live vs if you watch it at a different time.



How so?

Push You Down
04-01-2015, 03:06 PM
Just to be clear, though, Chuck screwed him long before he [Check] has a mental issue as well. Check kept him in the mail room when he first got his degree.

That's not really screwing him. It was honestly ridiculous for Jimmy to think Chuck would just give him a job at this giant lawfirm with his mailorder law degree. It was cowardly not to tell him that directly though.

Ellis Dee
04-01-2015, 03:06 PM
Would it? Are there really people who are Breaking Bad fans, but who just aren't interested in a show with Saul Goodman and Mike, but who WOULD watch a particular episode because of Gus being in it?

I gotta say I'm skeptical.I was a huge BB fan and almost didn't even bother checking out BCS. After a couple episodes has piled up on my DVR I almost just deleted them, but decided to give the first episode 20 minutes. I was hooked within about 3.

I can easily imagine a ton of BB fans not watching. It's easy to be skeptical. And if I had gone the other way and deleted BCS without watching, it's very likely I would have tuned in to see Gus.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 03:10 PM
It was honestly ridiculous for Jimmy to think Chuck would just give him a job at this giant lawfirm with his mailorder law degree.

After he brought them a 20 million dollar case?
:dubious:

DrCube
04-01-2015, 03:32 PM
After he brought them a 20 million dollar case?
:dubious:

He means the flashback, when Jimmy first told Chuck he passed the bar, a few years before the show's "present". I do think it is reasonable he's not hired as a lawyer at a big shot firm when he has a mail order degree from the University of American Samoa. But Chuck should have told him that, not Hamlin.

On the other hand, I expect partners at big firms to give their family preferential treatment from time to time. I mean, it was reasonable not to hire him, but it wasn't ridiculous to think he would from Jimmy's point of view. It probably happens all the time. Come to think of it, that's probably what happened to Hamlin the Younger. Except he got preferential treatment from undergrad all the way to partner, while Jimmy tried to do it on his own until he was faced with an unfavorable job search.

DrCube
04-01-2015, 03:39 PM
And I'm still wondering when we'll see the mysterious second Hamlin. I'm just assuming he's Howard's father, but it might be a similar older brother thing. I highly doubt Chuck and Howard started out as partners though. I'm almost certain Howard is the beneficiary of the older Hamlin's nepotism.

El_Kabong
04-01-2015, 04:02 PM
I only watched it the one time, but it looked like he punched the dude in the throat (which is pretty incapacitating if done correctly) after grabbing his gun.

I like to assume the confrontation went down the way it did was because the younger guy was really just a wanna-be blow-hard rather than Mike being some kind of Uber BadAss. Makes it a little more believable to me.

Mike should have asked him what color the boathouse is at Hereford.

What the .... ?!?!
04-01-2015, 04:09 PM
Just to be clear, though, Chuck screwed him long before he [Check] has a mental issue as well. Check kept him in the mail room when he first got his degree.

What is the time frame anyway (not so much order; more years and time passing in between)?

Jimmy in Chicago....
Chuck healthy and gets him out of trouble...
Jimmy in the mailroom...
Jimmy gets his degree and passes the bar...
Jimmy still in the mailroom...
Jimmy leaves HHM...
Chuck goes crazy and leaves HHM....

Joey P
04-01-2015, 04:13 PM
How so?
TiVo (and other DVRs I assume) get reports about your activity and send them back to the networks (or whoever buys them I guess). Every DVR is basically a Nielson box unless you tell it not to anonymously collect data. If you watch a show 'live' you can't skip commercials (any more than you could without a DVR), if you watch a show Time shifted you can skip commercials, and probably are. If you watch a show live, it's more important and that's worth more to the advertisers. It's all factored in to how much a network can sell ad space for.
Everything you do (at least on a TiVo) is collected and reported back. Every button you press, every show you record, they know, always know, to a certain extend, if you're in front of the TV or not.

That's not really screwing him. It was honestly ridiculous for Jimmy to think Chuck would just give him a job at this giant lawfirm with his mailorder law degree. It was cowardly not to tell him that directly though.
Chuck absolutely screwed him. Jimmy got a law degree and Chuck got Howard to agree not to hire him. Maybe Howard would have moved him up out of the mail room to see what he could do. Maybe Howard and the other partners would have been happy to have another paralegal working up there, maybe after a while Jimmy could have shown himself to be a good lawyer on his own and they could have tossed him some easy cases. Maybe after a few years Jimmy would have then had the time and money to go to a 'real' school (or wouldn't need to at that point.
Maybe Jimmy would have made a terrible HHM lawyer. But we'll never know because Chuck made sure he never got that chance. Chuck made sure he never got any chance.

IMO Chuck screwed Jimmy. The question is, did he do it because he was a coward and was trying to protect Jimmy? Did he do it for the reasons he stated (you're not a real lawyer)? Or did he do it to keep Jimmy down? To keep Jimmy to himself? To keep Jimmy from rising up? To make sure that Jimmy would always be slippin' Jimmy and he would always be the guy getting him out of trouble? Some people like to be needed.

We've seen Chuck get better and worse depending on Jimmy's behavior. Maybe it's all fake just to keep Jimmy at his side. Maybe he 'got sick' when Jimmy left HHM to form his own practice just to make sure Jimmy stayed in the house.

Malthus
04-01-2015, 04:37 PM
TiVo (and other DVRs I assume) get reports about your activity and send them back to the networks (or whoever buys them I guess). Every DVR is basically a Nielson box unless you tell it not to anonymously collect data. If you watch a show 'live' you can't skip commercials (any more than you could without a DVR), if you watch a show Time shifted you can skip commercials, and probably are. If you watch a show live, it's more important and that's worth more to the advertisers. It's all factored in to how much a network can sell ad space for.
Everything you do (at least on a TiVo) is collected and reported back. Every button you press, every show you record, they know, always know, to a certain extend, if you're in front of the TV or not.


Chuck absolutely screwed him. Jimmy got a law degree and Chuck got Howard to agree not to hire him. Maybe Howard would have moved him up out of the mail room to see what he could do. Maybe Howard and the other partners would have been happy to have another paralegal working up there, maybe after a while Jimmy could have shown himself to be a good lawyer on his own and they could have tossed him some easy cases. Maybe after a few years Jimmy would have then had the time and money to go to a 'real' school (or wouldn't need to at that point.
Maybe Jimmy would have made a terrible HHM lawyer. But we'll never know because Chuck made sure he never got that chance. Chuck made sure he never got any chance.

IMO Chuck screwed Jimmy. The question is, did he do it because he was a coward and was trying to protect Jimmy? Did he do it for the reasons he stated (you're not a real lawyer)? Or did he do it to keep Jimmy down? To keep Jimmy to himself? To keep Jimmy from rising up? To make sure that Jimmy would always be slippin' Jimmy and he would always be the guy getting him out of trouble? Some people like to be needed.

We've seen Chuck get better and worse depending on Jimmy's behavior. Maybe it's all fake just to keep Jimmy at his side. Maybe he 'got sick' when Jimmy left HHM to form his own practice just to make sure Jimmy stayed in the house.

I'm guessing Chuck's motivations all along have been to manipulate Jimmy into a mutually co-dependent relationship with Chuck.

That includes rescuing Jimmy from the consequences of his own criminality, but also sabotaging Jimmy whenever Jimmy shows any signs of individual initative, and even this "illness" of his - that keeps Jimmy caring for him.

Chuck exhibits many of these characteristics in his relationship with Jimmy:

Characteristics of Co-dependent People Are:

...

A tendency to confuse love and pity, with the tendency to “love” people they can pity and rescue

Chuck loves Jimmy - by keeping him pitiful, and rescuing him.

An unhealthy dependence on relationships. The co-dependent will do anything to hold on to a relationship; to avoid the feeling of abandonment

We have seen that Chuck will do anything to keep Jimmy around.

A compelling need to control others

This is Chuck. He seems to need to control Jimmy.

Lack of trust in self and/or others

Chuck certainly doesn't trust Jimmy ... even when he should. Jimmy has conned it is true, and lied, but he's never demonstrated anything but loyalty to his brother.

Rigidity/difficulty adjusting to change

Chuck's illness is all about establishing a routine and forcing others (particularly Jimmy) to conform to it.


Problems with intimacy/boundaries
Chronic anger
Lying/dishonesty
Poor communications


These all describe Chuck - he has a lot of anger bottled up; he can't see that his screwing of his brother is over the line; his lying (rather than honest communication) has now been exposed.

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/co-dependency

The irony here is that Jimmy is, superficially, the con man, and Chuck the honest and hard-working (but unfortunate) one - yet Chuck has conned Jimmy far worse than any con Jimmy has ever pulled off.

What the .... ?!?!
04-01-2015, 04:44 PM
Two nits to pick with this episode....

1. When I here the term "document dump" I think of responding to a request with much more than is requested at an inopportune time. In this case the attorneys for the retirement home went on the offensive with lots of requests. Maybe the term applies to both.

2. The pill seller did not have time to count that much money and determine there was $20 missing. I suppose one pack of $20s could have been broken open and he could have determined that one pack was missing one....but I doubt it. I don't know how much was supposed to be there but if he was paying his muscle $1500 there must have been a good deal more. Besides, he was peaking in a bag and fingering thru it...hardly an accurate way to count money.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 04:47 PM
2. The pill seller did not have time to count that much money and determine there was $20 missing. I suppose one pack of $20s could have been broken open and he could have determined that one pack was missing one....but I doubt it. I don't know how much was supposed to be there but if he was paying his muscle $1500 there must have been a good deal more. Besides, he was peaking in a bag and fingering thru it...hardly an accurate way to count money.

Dramatic license. We don't want to watch the guy counting money for fifteen minutes. :)

Push You Down
04-01-2015, 04:51 PM
Guy in mailroom gets law degree from dubious institution...is not immediately offered a law position within a large high-class lawfirm...does that sound like the mailroom guy got screwed?

Acsenray
04-01-2015, 04:51 PM
As a viewer, I guess I should have realized. When Hammlin says "the partners have decided...", I should have realized that as a 1/3 or so partner, Chuck would have enormous sway for a decision like that.


As an aside, if it had been a real law firm, there would be no reason to assume that the three "name partners" are the only equity partners.

Indeed, when a firm becomes large and successful, there's almost no way to keep operating without increasing the number of partners.

Lawyers who are signing up and managing large client accounts won't stand for remaining at associate status.

Trivia:

At a large law firm, there are several "ranks" of lawyers and the rank table can look like this. Obviously details and nomenclature vary widely, but these are common definitions.

Legal assistant/paralegal

— many of them have law degrees and might even be licensed to practice. But many traditional firms will never let someone hired at this level move up within the firm.

So their refusal to let Jimmy move out of the mailroom is pretty damn common.

Summer associate

— law school students. Up until 1995 or so, if you were a summer associate at a big law firm, you could expect to receive an offer to be an associate upon graduation.

Traditionally, summer associates are given real work and are invited to a lot of parties and fancy events.

Contract attorney

— signed on for a year at a time usually. Often hired to staff big litigation projects. If you impress, there's a chance you can make associate.

Staff attorney

— another "you'll never move up" level.

Associate/senior associate

— "Partner track" lawyers who are usually hired out of law school. Traditionally, if you haven't made partner after X number of years, you're asked to move on.

"Senior associates" are very often lateral hires from the associate ranks of another firm.

Counsel/"Of counsel"/senior "of counsel"

— sometimes a senior associate will be considered valuable enough to keep on even though he or she has failed the partner track because he or she doesn't have the personality or skill to bring in new business or whose job is primarily to manage other lawyers rather than ohm up clients.

This is where those folks end up.

Also, if you are an experienced solo practitioner or a partner at a different firm whose practice has gone belly up, you can end up at this level.

Of counsel can also be the top lawyers in a practice area that the firm doesn't specialize in.

Alternatively, counsel might be lawyers who kind of keep some of their own practice going on the side but are eligible to be called upon to manage or staff cases that there isn't a partner to handle.

These days there are also partners who voluntarily take a demotion to of counsel for less pressure and workload.

Of counsel can often be lawyers who have had a successful career in another field, like politics or in-house at a company or trade association.

Women who had children before they could make it to partner and aren't rich enough for a full-time nanny. Yes, it is a traditionally sexist and not family-friendly business.

In real life, Hamlin's offered of "counsel" status to Jimmy would be considered pretty respectable.

Non-equity partner

— a salaried partner, really a kind of glorified senior associate. When times are bad, these folks sweat unless they can make it to full partner status either at this firm or another.

Partner/full partner/equity partner/shareholder/member

— a co-owner of the firm, most of whose income comes from profit distributions. They are expected to "make it rain.@ if they lose major clients, clients go bankrupt, or they stop brining in new clients, they can find themselves voted out by the other partners or asked to take of counsel status.

Acsenray
04-01-2015, 04:57 PM
Summer associates are given little real work, is what I meant to say.

Malthus
04-01-2015, 04:59 PM
Guy in mailroom gets law degree from dubious institution...is not immediately offered a law position within a large high-class lawfirm...does that sound like the mailroom guy got screwed?

Depends on if his brother is a senior partner of the firm (apparently, 1 of 3). ;)

At the least, you'd expect the brother to use his connections to help him find a position somewhere doing something law-related.

DrForrester
04-01-2015, 05:02 PM
Jimmy / Saul, to pseudoquote Tuco, has quite a mouth on him. Mike is the strong, silent type. Mike's silence was also a contrast with the Super Bad-Ass gunman in the parking garage.

Although I really enjoy watching the character development in the Jimmy / Saul plot line, I think I prefer Mike's story so far. He's the sane, dependable man in a world in chaos. I loved seeing Mike give advice to the Pill Man towards the end.

A more mature Chuck would've congratulated Jimmy for passing the bar, then offered to help set Jimmy up in his own practice. There's a lot to be said for the advice that Chuck gave about being his own man. Jimmy had already exercised independence by passing the bar in secret.

Shutting Jimmy down so cruelly was entirely unnecessary. It took a while, but Chuck has reaped what he sowed.

2ManyTacos
04-01-2015, 05:03 PM
I'm going to throw this out there, given that it was in a review of this episode that I read the other day & I find it to be a pretty compelling argument.

On some basic level, Chuck does have a point about Jimmy's ascendency to lawyer status, insofar as the younger brother almost certainly did take a few shortcuts in order to pass the bar & practice law in NM. The thing is - and I know a lot of posters will probably disagree with me here - I really don't think that any of that even matters.

You gotta realize, Jimmy came to where he is in BCS after having been a complete failure as a grown-assed man in the BCS flashbacks. The fact that he was able to clean up his act, finish his undergrad work, attain a law degree (even if it was from a so-called mail-order school), AND pass the bar is a testament to a helluva lot of hard work & determination. I'd even go so far as to argue that the fact that he did all of those things as an ADULT is MORE impressive than if he had gone the "conventional" route of the straight-and-narrow path to law school as a youth.

Yeah, it might have been wishful thinking to imagine himself IMMEDIATELY getting hired at HHM, but his brother shouldn't have screwed him the way that he did. Jimmy could have worked his way up to partner more gradually - and Hell, for all we know, Howard might have been more than willing to do that - but Chuck would have none of that. So uncalled for, and such bullshit IMO.

Acsenray
04-01-2015, 05:08 PM
Depends on if his brother is a senior partner of the firm (apparently, 1 of 3). ;)


"Senior partner" is rarely if ever an actual title in a law firm. It's an informal description.

And as I said above, there's no reason to assume that the three "name partners" constitute the full equity partnership.

Only at a very small law firm is it common for all the equity partners to have their names above the door. HMM looks like a large firm, so in real life I would expect there to be way more than three equity partners.

Names can be from people who have died or retired and it's pretty common for names to be dropped through mergers or rebranding. You can't make any assumptions from the name.

Indeed, if there had only been three equity partners, Jimmy would have known for sure right away that Chuck was in on the decision.

Malthus
04-01-2015, 05:15 PM
I'm going to throw this out there, given that it was in a review of this episode that I read the other day & I find it to be a pretty compelling argument.

On some basic level, Chuck does have a point about Jimmy's ascendency to lawyer status, insofar as the younger brother almost certainly did take a few shortcuts in order to pass the bar & practice law in NM. The thing is - and I know a lot of posters will probably disagree with me here - I really don't think that any of that even matters.

You gotta realize, Jimmy came to where he is in BCS after having been a complete failure as a grown-assed man in the BCS flashbacks. The fact that he was able to clean up his act, finish his undergrad work, attain a law degree (even if it was from a so-called mail-order school), AND pass the bar is a testament to a helluva lot of hard work & determination. I'd even go so far as to argue that the fact that he did all of those things as an ADULT is MORE impressive than if he had gone the "conventional" route of the straight-and-narrow path to law school as a youth.

Yeah, it might have been wishful thinking to imagine himself IMMEDIATELY getting hired at HHM, but his brother shouldn't have screwed him the way that he did. Jimmy could have worked his way up to partner more gradually - and Hell, for all we know, Howard might have been more than willing to do that - but Chuck would have none of that. So uncalled for, and such bullshit IMO.

Well, for what it's worth I'm a lawyer, and I sorta agree with you.

Going to a good school is necessary for one thing - getting your first job. After that, people don't really care - it is all what you have achieved in the workplace. Chuck could have used his connections to find him some appropriate work, seen how it worked out for him.

Now, as far as Jimmy goes, IMO the issue isn't his credentials, it is his tendency to sneaky, underhanded and illegal or unethical behaviour - the "Slippin' Jimmy" persona. The worry is that he hasn't totally reformed, and that in a moment of stress, he'd revert to that.

Chuck had legitimate concerns about that - but it hardly lies in his mouth to complain about Jimmy's tendency to lie and manipulate, after what he did to Jimmy!

Malthus
04-01-2015, 05:23 PM
"Senior partner" is rarely if ever an actual title in a law firm. It's an informal description.

And as I said above, there's no reason to assume that the three "name partners" constitute the full equity partnership.

Only at a very small law firm is it common for all the equity partners to have their names above the door. HMM looks like a large firm, so in real life I would expect there to be way more than three equity partners.

Names can be from people who have died or retired and it's pretty common for names to be dropped through mergers or rebranding. You can't make any assumptions from the name.

Indeed, if there had only been three equity partners, Jimmy would have known for sure right away that Chuck was in on the decision.

While it is of course true that "senior partner" isn't a real title, I have to disagree with your analysis of how this firm seems to work in this program.

In the info we are actually given in the series, Jimmy just assumes that "the partners have made a decision" really translates into "that douchebag I hate has decided".

This is consistent with actual control of the firm being in very few hands.

If it was widely distributed among a whole bunch of equity partners, the plot would not make any sense - how would Chuck, by making a midnight phone call to that apparently-douchebag fellow, "fix" it so that Jimmy can't be offered a job - even though it would cost the firm a $20 million case? Wouldn't the rest of the equity partners not give a shit what Chuck had to say - if it cost them a big case?

Acsenray
04-01-2015, 05:33 PM
While it is of course true that "senior partner" isn't a real title, I have to disagree with your analysis of how this firm seems to work in this program.



In the info we are actually given in the series, Jimmy just assumes that "the partners have made a decision" really translates into "that douchebag I hate has decided".



This is consistent with actual control of the firm being in very few hands.



If it was widely distributed among a whole bunch of equity partners, the plot would not make any sense - how would Chuck, by making a midnight phone call to that apparently-douchebag fellow, "fix" it so that Jimmy can't be offered a job - even though it would cost the firm a $20 million case? Wouldn't the rest of the equity partners not give a shit what Chuck had to say - if it cost them a big case?


Law firm partnerships are social groups, especially if they're all working in a single office. The managing partner—which is what Hamlin seems to be—or other respected partners can be enormously influential on the other partners, especially if they are founding partners or name partners.

So, while you might be right about what's going on in the show, just because that's a habitual way TV scripts are written, in real life you would be making unfounded assumptions.

Dewey Finn
04-01-2015, 05:50 PM
One inconsistency; if Chuck was undermining Jimmy all this time, why did he laboriously piece together those shredded documents that proved the smoking gun for Jimmy's case? Or was he intrigued by the case but not enough to let Jimmy get ahead? And, as I said above, was the $20 million offer a deliberate attempt at raising the stakes enough that Sandpiper's lawyers would go after them big time, in a way that Jimmy couldn't handle on his own? Because Jimmy looked ready to take the half million-dollar offer that Sandpiper made.

soonerblue
04-01-2015, 05:55 PM
Thank you, everyone who shared a T-shirt link! I ordered a heather gray one from Teepublic, has the university logo and Law School printed underneath (love the Latin phrase); and a navy BCS logo (scales of justice) from the BCS store. Cool, I hope to attract other fans ... can just see them flocking to me now for a gab fest ... but really, I'm out in the sticks in the middle of of Oklahomastan ...some ol' guy will amble up to ask me, "What'd you study in that there college?":)

hajario
04-01-2015, 06:07 PM
Chuck was intrigued and the more he looked, the more that he saw that it was a great case. In his mind, it was Jimmy getting lucky and falling ass backwards into something that he really didn't understand. In reality, it was Jimmy being clever as hell with a bit of it takes a scammer to know a scammer.

SenorBeef
04-01-2015, 06:08 PM
If it was widely distributed among a whole bunch of equity partners, the plot would not make any sense - how would Chuck, by making a midnight phone call to that apparently-douchebag fellow, "fix" it so that Jimmy can't be offered a job - even though it would cost the firm a $20 million case? Wouldn't the rest of the equity partners not give a shit what Chuck had to say - if it cost them a big case?

It fits with the plot if they have 3 equity partners - Hamlin, Hamlin and McGill. We've not seen the other Hamlin, but it's believable that both Hamlins could hate or pretend to hate Jimmy. Chuck would always be overruled 2/1. And presumably the Hamlins are close and would wield influence in that way.

soonerblue
04-01-2015, 06:22 PM
My interpretation was that the call he made in his office immediately after talking to Kim was to the phone company. It matches what he said to Chuck perfectly. He told Chuck that he knew he had turned off his phone so he checked with the phone company. Kim's warning probably also made him suspicious, but I'll be a little surprised if they show a conversation where Kim tells Jimmy about Chuck when they didn't include it in this episode.

The actress portraying Kim actually did a great job in that scene. I believed completely that she was trying to hint to Jimmy something sneaky was going on without explicitly saying what.

I agree, she looked so solemn and kept calmly saying, "Take the deal" ... Jimmy knew it was serious.

So, he had a plan on his way to Chuck’s -- if big brother really does support Jimmy in his fight to work with HHM on the case, the solution is simple. All Chuck has to do is pretend to quit. Chuck seems to hold the keys to the Kingdom of the Firm ... looks like they'd do anything to keep him happy, since the alternative might mean financial ruin ... but all Jimmy is doing is calling Chuck’s bluff.

Jimmy has checked his cell phone records. His brother went to great lengths to call Howard at 2 a.m., using a phone that must have hurt him a great deal. What could possibly be that important? Jimmy knows what went down. When Chuck is cornered, we hear, "You’re not a real lawyer!” ... which breaks Jimmy's heart, and mine.

So ... he'll decide if he cannot win his brother's approval, he'll become the kind of lawyer his brother despises.

soonerblue
04-01-2015, 06:35 PM
I hope I don't get into trouble sharing this, you regulars will have to school me if I do something wrong, but I found this interesting since we had been wondering about it.

One of the show's creators, Peter Gould talked to EW (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/03/30/better-call-saul-peter-gould-jimmy-chuck?asdf&hootPostID=632f845adf3e413ddf898dd4ca5c0c9a)about the fractured relationship between the brothers:

“Part of the reason Jimmy’s always gotten into trouble is because he could never equal Chuck,” Gould continues. “Chuck was always the good brother. But from Chuck’s point of view, Jimmy was the one who got all the attention. Jimmy was the kid who would make everyone laugh with a joke. And Chuck, for all his ability and all his brains, really doesn’t have the common touch. And we realized—and it came as a shock to us—that on some level, Chuck is jealous of Jimmy. ..........

"And one of the things I love about the scene at the end of episode 9 that [co-executive producer] Tom Schnauz wrote, and that Bob and Michael played, is that Chuck is not all wrong. ..... there is an element of truth to what he says: ‘The law is sacred. If you abuse that power, people get hurt. This is not a game.’ And that brings up the question: How much is that a self-fulfilling prophecy? Does Jimmy act out because deep down, he believes what Chuck thinks of him?”

MaxTheVool
04-01-2015, 06:40 PM
Guy in mailroom gets law degree from dubious institution...is not immediately offered a law position within a large high-class lawfirm...does that sound like the mailroom guy got screwed?

I think what makes it a screwing is two things:
(a) Chuck effectively lied by not being the one to tell him himself
(b) There was not even an apparent effort to meet him halfway, give him some sort of tryout, let him be an unpaid paralegal for a month to see if he's good, anything of that sort.

It would have been ridiculous for HHM to just say "OK, you're hired, here's your corner office and your secretary!" but given that Jimmy already worked there and as the brother of a partner, it's hardly preposterous to think they could do SOMETHING, even if something largely symbolic.


But the worst part was the lying.

Joey P
04-01-2015, 06:49 PM
2. The pill seller did not have time to count that much money and determine there was $20 missing. I suppose one pack of $20s could have been broken open and he could have determined that one pack was missing one....but I doubt it. I don't know how much was supposed to be there but if he was paying his muscle $1500 there must have been a good deal more. Besides, he was peaking in a bag and fingering thru it...hardly an accurate way to count money.
I thought about that as well. If there were 12 bottles and each bottle had a hundred pills and they were 80 milligram oxy's (all assumptions except for the 80mg part) that's 1200 pills. Call that $50 per pill street price, that's $60K. At wholesale, maybe he got $30,000 for the box. I can count money at a reasonable fast pace, but it takes me about 30 seconds to count a thousand dollars in 20's and I wouldn't be able to do it inside an envelope.
I agree that they may have tried to keep it brief, but they should have made it more realistic as well. 300 one hundred dollar bills would have been easier to count and they could have shown him awkwardly/nervously counting them in the minivan while Mike is standing there. They could have even thrown in a mix of 20's so they could use that line. Mostly hundreds and a few twenties would only take him 2 or 3 minutes to count.

Guy in mailroom gets law degree from dubious institution...is not immediately offered a law position within a large high-class lawfirm...does that sound like the mailroom guy got screwed?
No, on the face of it, it doesn't. I'm sure even Jimmy didn't feel screwed at the time. But that's not the point, the point is that the real reason he didn't get the job is because Chuck told Howard not to hire him. There's no other reason for it. None. Chuck told Howard (and/or the other partners) not to hire Jimmy. We can only speculate at his true reasons for doing it, but that's the reason he didn't get hired. Hell, maybe HHM wouldn't have hired Jimmy on their own, but they didn't even have to make that decision.
And FWIW, I'm willing to bet if Howard had gone to the partners and said 'My brother got his law degree, I'd like to bring him out of the mail room" they would have.

Declan
04-01-2015, 07:02 PM
And FWIW, I'm willing to bet if Howard had gone to the partners and said 'My brother got his law degree, I'd like to bring him out of the mail room" they would have.

I was thinking about what was said upstream about contract lawyer, it would have been easier for chuck to have him brought aboard, provisionally as a contract lawyer, and then told his performance was not desirable and drop him at the end. It would suck, but at least chuck could have deflected jimmies disapointment back at him.

Like any work place, some people are not good cultural fit , regardless of either their competence or pedigree.

Declan

Joey P
04-01-2015, 07:11 PM
I was thinking about what was said upstream about contract lawyer, it would have been easier for chuck to have him brought aboard, provisionally as a contract lawyer, and then told his performance was not desirable and drop him at the end. It would suck, but at least chuck could have deflected jimmies disapointment back at him.

Like any work place, some people are not good cultural fit , regardless of either their competence or pedigree.

Declan

But what if he was a good fit. If he worked at HHM, he may have turned out to be a great lawyer and fit in just fine in that corporate culture. Perhaps (and we'll see how it plays out) the only reason he's an ambulance chaser is because that's where Chuck pushed him.

Declan
04-01-2015, 07:16 PM
But what if he was a good fit. If he worked at HHM, he may have turned out to be a great lawyer and fit in just fine in that corporate culture. Perhaps (and we'll see how it plays out) the only reason he's an ambulance chaser is because that's where Chuck pushed him.


I disagree, the point of giving him the contract position would have been to be seen to be supportive, even if he was a good lawyer, good fit, his position in chucks eyes, was the mail room. At the end of the year, if not sooner, he would have been gone.

Declan

Athabasca
04-01-2015, 07:19 PM
What was said about Tuco working for Gus Fring, it doesn't sound feasible since Tuco was Hector Salamanca's nephew, and the Salamancas were all cartel. Fring, IIRC, wasn't cartel but the cartel tried to bring him to heel anyway. Jmo.

And, Tuco was a junkie for meth, and Fring hated junkies, cf. Jesse Pinkman

DrForrester
04-01-2015, 07:32 PM
Fring didn't deal "in his own back yard". He ran the distribution for dealers elsewhere in the South West. The local (local to Fring) distribution was handled by Tuco, who was the local extension of the Cartel.

Disgruntled Penguin
04-01-2015, 07:36 PM
Jimmy is talented in a way that Chuck couldn't touch.


Let's not go too far. Chuck built HHM into a multimillion dollar firm and Saul doesn't even have anything like that in BB. Chuck's a jerk but worse lawyer than Jimmy? I don't think so.

Saul is still a guy in a strip mall law office with a decent advertising budget and flexible morals in BB not a high powered attorney with a crack law firm that he built himself.

CarnalK
04-01-2015, 07:56 PM
Depends on if his brother is a senior partner of the firm (apparently, 1 of 3). ;)

At the least, you'd expect the brother to use his connections to help him find a position somewhere doing something law-related.

Sure. But Jimmy didnt ask his brother didn't ask for that kind of help. Jimmy quite unrealistically asked for a lawyer job there.

Tamerlane
04-01-2015, 07:57 PM
Let's not go too far. Chuck built HHM into a multimillion dollar firm and Saul doesn't even have anything like that in BB. Chuck's a jerk but worse lawyer than Jimmy? I don't think so.

Saul is still a guy in a strip mall law office with a decent advertising budget and flexible morals in BB not a high powered attorney with a crack law firm that he built himself.

No, obviously Chuck is vastly more knowledgeable than Jimmy about the in and outs of law. But what Jimmy is, is very clever and very glib. He might never be as good at nuts and bolts law, but with coaching and time he probably had the making for a quality trial lawyer. I presume any big firm could probably use those kind of skills, which seem to at least some extent to be dependant on personality and native ability.

At any rate we don't know yet, but this may just be the reason Jimmy never got a chance to build a top firm. Because he will bitterly short-circuit that career, taking shortcuts and becoming a criminal-enabling shyster. Maybe Jimmy never had it in him to succeed brilliantly like his brother ( probably not ), but in some sense Chuck may have stolen his chance to try.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 07:57 PM
And FWIW, I'm willing to bet if Howard had gone to the partners and said 'My brother got his law degree, I'd like to bring him out of the mail room" they would have.

My Brother passed the BAT, I'd like to being him out of the mail room.
The state of New Mexico says that he mat practice law there.

:)

Disgruntled Penguin
04-01-2015, 08:05 PM
No, obviously Chuck is vastly more knowledgeable than Jimmy about the in and outs of law. But what Jimmy is, is very clever and very glib. He might never be as good at nuts and bolts law, but with coaching and time he probably had the making for a quality trial lawyer. I presume any big firm could probably use those kind of skills, which seem to at least some extent to be dependant on personality and native ability.

At any rate we don't know yet, but this may just be the reason Jimmy never got a chance to build a top firm. Because he will bitterly short-circuit that career, taking shortcuts and becoming a criminal-enabling shyster. Maybe Jimmy never had it in him to succeed brilliantly like his brother ( probably not ), but in some sense Chuck may have stolen his chance to try.

I agree with this analysis.

Disgruntled Penguin
04-01-2015, 08:09 PM
My Brother passed the BAT, I'd like to being him out of the mail room.
The state of New Mexico says that he mat practice law there.

:)

I've heard that this is even harder than passing the BAR.

Disgruntled Penguin
04-01-2015, 08:12 PM
While it is of course true that "senior partner" isn't a real title, I have to disagree with your analysis of how this firm seems to work in this program.

In the info we are actually given in the series, Jimmy just assumes that "the partners have made a decision" really translates into "that douchebag I hate has decided".

This is consistent with actual control of the firm being in very few hands.

If it was widely distributed among a whole bunch of equity partners, the plot would not make any sense - how would Chuck, by making a midnight phone call to that apparently-douchebag fellow, "fix" it so that Jimmy can't be offered a job - even though it would cost the firm a $20 million case? Wouldn't the rest of the equity partners not give a shit what Chuck had to say - if it cost them a big case?

Like Jimmy says, Chuck does hold the nuclear option. What's worse, losing a $20 million case or losing your entire firm?

Acsenray
04-01-2015, 08:21 PM
Like Jimmy says, Chuck does hold the nuclear option. What's worse, losing a $20 million case or losing your entire firm?

I suspect that if Chuck threatened Hamilin with anything, it was the threat to make him buy out his share of the firm, something Hamlin has been resisting all season.

Disgruntled Penguin
04-01-2015, 08:35 PM
I suspect that if Chuck threatened Hamilin with anything, it was the threat to make him buy out his share of the firm, something Hamlin has been resisting all season.

Right, he resisted because it could bankrupt the firm. Remember Chuck kept using the people would lose their jobs excuse for why he wouldn't sell out. Hamlin and Hamlin can't survive alone apparently. That's why Jimmy wanted him to threaten just that. Not to get Chuck from HHM but to make HHM hire him. If Chuck really wanted to work with him that is.

If you're commenting on what was actually said, I was responding to the so far unnamed and possibly non existent additional partners would have voted and how Chuck could have convinced them to sabotage Jimmy.

I don't expect it would have been hard to convince them anyway since he was still planning to and still plans to give them the case anyway.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 08:36 PM
I've heard that this is even harder than passing the BAR.

Indeed, mat practicing law is a bitch!
:)

Oh hell, the BAT too.
:)

Joey P
04-01-2015, 08:43 PM
Right, he resisted because it could bankrupt the firm. Remember Chuck kept using the people would lose their jobs excuse for why he wouldn't sell out. Hamlin and Hamlin can't survive alone apparently. That's why Jimmy wanted him to threaten just that. Not to get Chuck from HHM but to make HHM hire him. If Chuck really wanted to work with him that is.
When Jimmy suggested that Chuck use the nuclear option to force Howard to hire him, he already knew what was going on (or at least had a pretty good idea). He knew Chuck wasn't going say 'hey, that makes sense, I'll do that'. He was just had to start backing Chuck into a corner to get him to come clean and A)confirm his suspicions and b)explain why he asked HHM not to hire him, twice.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 08:47 PM
When Jimmy suggested that Chuck use the nuclear option to force Howard to hire him, he already knew what was going on (or at least had a pretty good idea). He knew Chuck wasn't going say 'hey, that makes sense, I'll do that'. He was just had to start backing Chuck into a corner to get him to come clean and A)confirm his suspicions and b)explain why he asked HHM not to hire him, twice.

Yes.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 08:49 PM
I would like to see how Saul hid his tracks in fleeing to manage a Cinnabon joint far away.

Disgruntled Penguin
04-01-2015, 08:49 PM
When Jimmy suggested that Chuck use the nuclear option to force Howard to hire him, he already knew what was going on (or at least had a pretty good idea). He knew Chuck wasn't going say 'hey, that makes sense, I'll do that'. He was just had to start backing Chuck into a corner to get him to come clean and A)confirm his suspicions and b)explain why he asked HHM not to hire him, twice.

I get all this. I'm just saying the nuclear option can be used to make HHM do what he wants either way. On the show, Jimmy asks him to do this exactly like you described. In the reply I was saying he could have used the same option to make the unseen partners not hire Jimmy. The option cuts both ways. Since we never saw the conversation no idea if he actually had to go that far or not to keep them from hiring Jimmy ( probably not ) but clearly if Chuck really wanted, Jimmy could not get hired. He holds the Nuclear Card. There would no longer be an HHM if Chuck doesn't want there to be.

Joey P
04-01-2015, 08:59 PM
I would like to see how Saul hid his tracks in fleeing to manage a Cinnabon joint far away.
We did, he used the disappearer (Robert Forester).

I get all this. I'm just saying the nuclear option can be used to make HHM do what he wants either way. On the show, Jimmy asks him to do this exactly like you described. In the reply I was saying he could have used the same option to make the unseen partners not hire Jimmy. The option cuts both ways. Since we never saw the conversation no idea if he actually had to go that far or not to keep them from hiring Jimmy ( probably not ) but clearly if Chuck really wanted, Jimmy could not get hired. He holds the Nuclear Card. There would no longer be an HHM if Chuck doesn't want there to be.
I suppose. But I can't see Chuck going up to the partners and saying "I swear to god, you guys, if you hire him why I'll...I'll quit". They love Chuck and if Chuck asked them not to hire Jimmy I think they'd do that for him. Just like (as I said earlier), if Chuck asked them to hire him, they'd probably do that as well, or at least take his opinion into serious consideration when discussing whether or not to hire this new applicant.
I just don't think Chuck had to threaten to bankrupt the entire firm just to keep them from hiring a mail room clerk that got his degree from The University Of Samoa (Go Landsharks).

He could also use the nuclear option to get the better toilet paper in the executive washroom or to get his office vacuumed every night instead of just twice a week.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 09:05 PM
I just don't think Chuck had to threaten to bankrupt the entire firm just to keep them from hiring a mail room clerk that got his degree from The University Of Samoa (Go Landsharks).



Land Crabs.
Passed the BAR, if I can spell it correctly this time. :)

Joey P
04-01-2015, 09:08 PM
Land Crabs.
Passed the BAR, if I can spell it correctly this time. :)

Ya know, I was thinking about that yesterday. I was wondering why that clever shark from SNL would be the mascot for a college.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 09:18 PM
Ya know, I was thinking about that yesterday. I was wondering why that clever shark from SNL would be the mascot for a college.

:)

CarnalK
04-01-2015, 09:19 PM
I suppose. But I can't see Chuck going up to the partners and saying "I swear to god, you guys, if you hire him why I'll...I'll quit". They love Chuck and if Chuck asked them not to hire Jimmy I think they'd do that for him. Just like (as I said earlier), if Chuck asked them to hire him, they'd probably do that as well, or at least take his opinion into serious consideration when discussing whether or not to hire this new applicant.

Without a damn doubt! I know you can force employees to act happy but istm that the entire company came out to applaud his return quite sincerely. I don't think Chuck wants to keep Jimmy subservient, as suggested, as much as never really believed that he ever will stop being Slippy Jim.

carnivorousplant
04-01-2015, 09:22 PM
I don't think Chuck wants to keep Jimmy subservient, as suggested, as much as never really believed that he ever will stop being Slippy Jim.

So he must keep Slipping Jimmy subservient.

SuperNelson
04-01-2015, 09:29 PM
Has it been addressed whether Gilligan named Hamlin after Harry Hamlin (who played the pretty boy lawyer on L.A. LAW)?

Michael McKean has only grown as an actor for his entire career. Another "he is incredible on this series", and it's also probably his best role in a long career.

Agreed. I got to see him on Broadway in a revival of "The Best Man." He was on stage with James Earl Jones, John Larroquette, Eric McCormack, Angela Lansbury, and Candace Bergen and held his own.

SuperNelson
04-01-2015, 09:31 PM
I would like to see how Saul hid his tracks in fleeing to manage a Cinnabon joint far away.

He bought a new filter for his vacuum cleaner.

Disgruntled Penguin
04-01-2015, 09:39 PM
I suppose. But I can't see Chuck going up to the partners and saying "I swear to god, you guys, if you hire him why I'll...I'll quit".

I'm pretty sure that's why I said ( probably not ) on whether he did that or not. I was saying though that if he had to he could have, not that he did, should have, thought about it etc. Just like the Nuclear Powers, he's never had to exercise the option but the threat is always there. Clearly, I can't make this point clearly enough and that's really the only point I was making. I was responding to a post that said how could he convince partners who did NOT like him enough to lose a $ 20 million dollar case. I mentioned one way he could have done that if he had to.

CarnalK
04-01-2015, 09:42 PM
So he must keep Slipping Jimmy subservient.

Well no. Not necessarily. He couldn't let Jimmy be a lawyer at his precious firm but there's no way he went all mental case to keep Jimmy his servant.

brickbacon
04-01-2015, 11:05 PM
On some basic level, Chuck does have a point about Jimmy's ascendency to lawyer status, insofar as the younger brother almost certainly did take a few shortcuts in order to pass the bar & practice law in NM. The thing is - and I know a lot of posters will probably disagree with me here - I really don't think that any of that even matters.

Well, I think it matters in the (corporate) legal field a lot. Many top corporate law firms won't hire even great students from middling law schools. That's why all these schools are obsessed with ranking to the point they often hire their own unemployed graduates just to boost their standing. It may not matter on a practical level, but it's matters to everyone who makes decisions either because of inertia, culture, or true beliefs.

I'd even go so far as to argue that the fact that he did all of those things as an ADULT is MORE impressive than if he had gone the "conventional" route of the straight-and-narrow path to law school as a youth.

But you don't get points for difficulty in general when the stress and adversity was self-inflicted.

Yeah, it might have been wishful thinking to imagine himself IMMEDIATELY getting hired at HHM, but his brother shouldn't have screwed him the way that he did. Jimmy could have worked his way up to partner more gradually - and Hell, for all we know, Howard might have been more than willing to do that - but Chuck would have none of that. So uncalled for, and such bullshit IMO.

In reality, a firm like that would almost NEVER hire a guy like him.

I think what makes it a screwing is two things:
(a) Chuck effectively lied by not being the one to tell him himself
(b) There was not even an apparent effort to meet him halfway, give him some sort of tryout, let him be an unpaid paralegal for a month to see if he's good, anything of that sort.

I think the safe assumption is that Chuck has likely told him similar things many times in the past. I think you are giving short shrift to the fact that Chuck seems to have regularly saved his fuck-up brother for years with no appreciation. He probably has heard Jimmy tell him he's gonna change a thousand times, gotten him out of jams, and put his reputation, money, and position in peril to save Jimmy. It's terrible to have a screw up sibling, but it's much harder when that person is a liar and grifter. You can never trust people like that, and many lawyers take trust, honesty, and respectability VERY seriously. Jimmy has compromisable ethics and morals, and most lawyers like Chuck would find that really hard to endorse by hiring him in an official capacity.

Jimmy is/was essentially a conman, and Chuck was constantly enabling that behavior because he felt obligated. Chuck loves Jimmy, but he doesn't respect him, and I think that is perfectly understandable given their relationship. I think it's a bit much to expect Chuck to hire him in a position where ethics are held in such a high regard when Jimmy has demonstrated for years that he doesn't have any ethics.

We know what happens to Jimmy/Saul, and no matter the betrayal he felt from Chuck, it doesn't explain how he turned into the guy who is helping Walt arrange hits to protect his drug business. If anything, that should tell us that Chuck's instincts were right here. Circumstances don't generally turn you into a person who is running scams and aiding and abetting serious crimes when you have other options like practicing law in an above board fashion.

Also consider the fact that Jimmy didn't even tell Chuck he was going to school. I think that says a lot about their relationship as well.

No, obviously Chuck is vastly more knowledgeable than Jimmy about the in and outs of law. But what Jimmy is, is very clever and very glib. He might never be as good at nuts and bolts law, but with coaching and time he probably had the making for a quality trial lawyer.

Actual practice of the law is largely nuts and bolts. I think the idea of the smooth talking lawyer skating by with the gift of gab is largely a myth.

DSeid
04-01-2015, 11:49 PM
A very good episode (especially the Mike parts) but I have to say I have a problem watching it slightly similar to just one of the many problems I had with Star Wars 1 to 3: we know how a prequel is going to end ...

Jimmy is really and truly a "good guy" who we are increasingly beginning to care about and we know going into it that he will be a tragic figure. We know that all of this trying to do the right things will end up resulting in his eventual Cinnabon life. There is no chance he, our well intended good guy, will prevail. His every effort to do the right thing for good reasons is in process of destroying his future.

Now we do not know the exact path that that tragedy will follow and kudos to the show runners, writers, and actors for making the unveiling of that path clever and interesting. But a certain tension is removed by our knowing how it must end ... the character we most identify with and like will fall mainly it seems because he's tried to do the right things.

Something about that is making me enjoy this a bit less the more the show goes on.

Is it just me?

Sitnam
04-02-2015, 01:24 AM
After this episode I hated Jimmy's brother, but I've thought about it more.

We don't know Chucks side. Not really. We know Saul, and the show is about his exploits and from his point of view. We see a little about his 'drunk man Rolex 'scheme, but that is it.

When Chuck said "the law is sacred, if you mess with that people get hurt", forget Chuck's elitism, he could certainly be talking about real events. Slipping Jimmy fake falls in a ma and pop store which sues them out of business because the didn't follow exact legal procedure. Jimmy got his degree (he passed the Bar, forget the credentials that means something to every lawyer) and then when he told his brother he made the case he had changed. The next episode he pulls some shady crap with the billboard, he lies to Chuck and he finds out. He has not really changed.

Chucks actions were pretty shitty, but that referral would have netted Jimmy 20 grand now and tons more later which was more than fair. It wasn't fair that Jimmy expected to be partners in his brothers law firm just because. Jimmy cares for his brother, he deserved better treatment, but I'm not convinced his brother was entirely in the wrong.

soonerblue
04-02-2015, 05:50 AM
Agreed. I got to see him on Broadway in a revival of "The Best Man." He was on stage with James Earl Jones, John Larroquette, Eric McCormack, Angela Lansbury, and Candace Bergen and held his own.

McKean is an excellent, excellent actor, he seems to throw off energy to other actors, who toss it back. He also has subtle nuances. That scene in HHM's cleared out conference room when Howard is telling Jimmy that they want the case, but not him, Chuck makes little sputtering, annoyed noises and kind of rolls his eyes, acting like he can't believe it either - that's not easy for an actor to do, act like he's acting.

He did a stint on SNL, skits and impressions ... had excellent comic timing.

Bob Odenkirk also worked on SNL - a writer? - he and Jon Stewart were stand-up buddies in the old days. There is something to be said about comics having an extra skill that enables them to become great serious actors.

That last scene between McKean and Odenkirk -- definitely Emmy worthy.

soonerblue
04-02-2015, 05:54 AM
He bought a new filter for his vacuum cleaner.

;) And IIRC, he wasn't running from the cops, he was running from that gang of methed-up skinheads (white supremists?) ... that Walter wiped out with the click of a keyring. Is there anyone else chasing Saul?

Sooo, I hope when the show finally catches up to Saul in Omaha, we see him trying to redeem himself in some way, trying to become Jimmy again. To me, Jimmy is already far more likable than any character we saw on Breaking Bad. I want a happy ending for him dammit ...

Don't Panic
04-02-2015, 06:35 AM
To me, Jimmy is already far more likable than any character we saw on Breaking Bad.
Well, yeah. But the shortage of likeable characters on Breaking Bad isn't a bug, it's a feature.

soonerblue
04-02-2015, 06:51 AM
Well, yeah. But the shortage of likeable characters on Breaking Bad isn't a bug, it's a feature.

;) Point taken ... and I forgot to mention bad cop, good criminal Mike, who just wants to support his granddaughter ... out of guilt, not greed.

Sitnam
04-02-2015, 07:35 AM
I can't wait to meet Goodman's staff, I liked sassy receptionist and the two goons (hue and Redhead). It was also hinted in Breaking Bad Jessie had knowledge of Saul first hand so I think near the end Saul will get Pinkman, Skinny Pete and/or Badger out of trouble.

Shakester
04-02-2015, 07:37 AM
;) And IIRC, he wasn't running from the cops, he was running from that gang of methed-up skinheads (white supremists?) ... that Walter wiped out with the click of a keyring. Is there anyone else chasing Saul?

Saul was running from the cops, not the neo-Nazis.

Two DEA agents are missing, presumed murdered. The cops believe that Walt is behind it, and the cops have Skyler in custody and presumably telling all she knows. Which includes detailed knowledge of how deeply Saul is involved in Walt's activities. THAT's why Saul decided to disappear, and why he's never going to reappear if he can help it.

Malthus
04-02-2015, 08:54 AM
Well no. Not necessarily. He couldn't let Jimmy be a lawyer at his precious firm but there's no way he went all mental case to keep Jimmy his servant.

Maybe not conciously. The thing is, the motives of a person with significant mental problems may not be what appears to us to be rational self-interest, or even acknowledged to themselves.

There is pretty obviously a long history between these brothers ... in the end, how much of his "illness" is tied up with his messed-up relationship with his brother? It seems to get worse when he disapproves of Jimmy, and better when he approves of him.

Sam Lowry
04-02-2015, 09:07 AM
One inconsistency; if Chuck was undermining Jimmy all this time, why did he laboriously piece together those shredded documents that proved the smoking gun for Jimmy's case? Or was he intrigued by the case but not enough to let Jimmy get ahead? And, as I said above, was the $20 million offer a deliberate attempt at raising the stakes enough that Sandpiper's lawyers would go after them big time, in a way that Jimmy couldn't handle on his own? Because Jimmy looked ready to take the half million-dollar offer that Sandpiper made.

I don't think Chuck is consciously undermining Jimmy all this time. He's not Dr. Claw trying to think of ways to destroy Inspector Gadget. One of the things he told Jimmy in the conversation at the end was "You know I'm right!" I think he honestly thinks he's doing what is best for both of them. I don't think he realizes that he is motivated by caring about his brother, but he's also motivated by jealousy regarding how some things have come easier to Jimmy.

So maybe it was curiosity, then he saw that it was a real case, and without even meaning to took it over. The $20 million does sound like a legitimate number, it does sound like there are plenty of legitimate victims in this case. It just also happens that while Chuck raises the money in a way to get more of the victims more money, he also raises it higher than Jimmy would be able to handle on his own. And it's for the best for everyone, because Jimmy must know deep down that he should be in charge of this, because he knows that he is a conman at heart. I imagine Chuck's thinking would be along those lines.



I think the safe assumption is that Chuck has likely told him similar things many times in the past. I think you are giving short shrift to the fact that Chuck seems to have regularly saved his fuck-up brother for years with no appreciation. He probably has heard Jimmy tell him he's gonna change a thousand times, gotten him out of jams, and put his reputation, money, and position in peril to save Jimmy. It's terrible to have a screw up sibling, but it's much harder when that person is a liar and grifter. You can never trust people like that, and many lawyers take trust, honesty, and respectability VERY seriously. Jimmy has compromisable ethics and morals, and most lawyers like Chuck would find that really hard to endorse by hiring him in an official capacity.

Jimmy is/was essentially a conman, and Chuck was constantly enabling that behavior because he felt obligated. Chuck loves Jimmy, but he doesn't respect him, and I think that is perfectly understandable given their relationship. I think it's a bit much to expect Chuck to hire him in a position where ethics are held in such a high regard when Jimmy has demonstrated for years that he doesn't have any ethics.

We know what happens to Jimmy/Saul, and no matter the betrayal he felt from Chuck, it doesn't explain how he turned into the guy who is helping Walt arrange hits to protect his drug business. If anything, that should tell us that Chuck's instincts were right here. Circumstances don't generally turn you into a person who is running scams and aiding and abetting serious crimes when you have other options like practicing law in an above board fashion.

Also consider the fact that Jimmy didn't even tell Chuck he was going to school. I think that says a lot about their relationship as well.


That's true, this is probably not the first time that Chuck has heard Jimmy say that he was going to turn things around. He loves but doesn't respect him is exactly right. It's an interesting, complex relationship.

But I don't think Chuck's instincts were right with Jimmy. I think it's a tragic case of living up to (or down to) expectations. I was thinking about what would have happened to Jimmy if Chuck had died shortly before Jimmy finished his law degree. Or maybe he didn't die but he retired and moved to a beach house in the Caribbean and didn't have as much contact with Jimmy. I don't know if he would have gotten a position at HHM, it sounds like still he probably wouldn't, but I think he could have still gotten some sort of position at some smaller law firm, or something making money. And if in this alternate universe he still stumbled upon a case like Sandpiper and brought it to HHM, it would be disappointing if they didn't hire him, but not devastating like in this universe. He'd be upset but dust himself off and keep on working. I don't think Jimmy would end up as an Atticus Finch like paragon of virtue, but I don't think he would have ended up as a criminal lawyer. People's expectations of us does have a big affect on how we act. It has a conscious and subconscious affect.

I can't blame Chuck for not believing that Jimmy turned his life around. It's tragic because we can see how hard Jimmy is trying. He does seem to genuinely care about the elderly clients, and he wants to make money but he's not trying to scam anyone here.

Also, I think Jimmy didn't tell Chuck that he was getting his law degree was because he had probably told him so many other times that he was getting his life together, and was afraid of disappointing him again. He didn't want to try for it and then fail and see his brother be disappointed. It just happens that this time he didn't fail, so he told his brother after it was all done. But since Chuck didn't see Jimmy trying, he didn't see how hard he worked and how big of a deal it was.

Joey P
04-02-2015, 09:14 AM
Maybe not conciously. The thing is, the motives of a person with significant mental problems may not be what appears to us to be rational self-interest, or even acknowledged to themselves.

There is pretty obviously a long history between these brothers ... in the end, how much of his "illness" is tied up with his messed-up relationship with his brother? It seems to get worse when he disapproves of Jimmy, and better when he approves of him.

On the one hand, I want to assume that they'll just have the two brothers go there separate ways when Jimmy goes full Saul. OTOH, I wonder if Chuck would get so bad as to kill himself when his brother becomes one of 'those' lawyers. Putting fake neck braces on people, trying to scam/scare good people out of money because of a fender bender. Defending the worst that NM has to offer...being a criminal lawyer.
We talk about how we know where the series has to end up, but Chuck/Howard/Kim etc where never mentioned* in BB so we have no idea what's going to happen with those characters other than that they have to go away before WW arrives. I mean, so far the only scene that lost it's tension is that we knew he wasn't going to get his finger cut off.

*Unless Kim is one of his ex-wives. But that still leaves a lot of wiggle room.

DSeid
04-02-2015, 09:57 AM
Saul was running from the cops, not the neo-Nazis. ...

Right. There is no happy ending for Jimmy. And unlike BB in which we mostly all saw the dark side of Walt very very early on, even when he was trying to fool himself as to his motivations, Jimmy is an earnest guy really trying to do right as best he can. A good tragedy needs the downfall to be from some essential tragic flaw ... being a pretty sweet flim flam man hardly seems up to that level.

soonerblue
04-02-2015, 10:25 AM
Saul was running from the cops, not the neo-Nazis.

Two DEA agents are missing, presumed murdered. The cops believe that Walt is behind it, and the cops have Skyler in custody and presumably telling all she knows. Which includes detailed knowledge of how deeply Saul is involved in Walt's activities. THAT's why Saul decided to disappear, and why he's never going to reappear if he can help it.

Thanks, I must have mis-remembered it, it's been a while.

So it mostly hinges on whether Skyler talks ...I need to do a little more reading.

Malthus
04-02-2015, 10:34 AM
Right. There is no happy ending for Jimmy. And unlike BB in which we mostly all saw the dark side of Walt very very early on, even when he was trying to fool himself as to his motivations, Jimmy is an earnest guy really trying to do right as best he can. A good tragedy needs the downfall to be from some essential tragic flaw ... being a pretty sweet flim flam man hardly seems up to that level.

Walt was a classic example of a tragedy because Walt's tragic flaw was one of the classic ones - overweening pride. Walt would rather rule as a badass in Hell than be a nerd in Heaven, so he makes his own Hell.

Jimmy's tragic flaw is that he's always looking for the shortcut, the quick fix, the hustle. He recognized this and was genuinely pulling himself out of his flim-flam artist ways, to gain the approval of a brother whom he loved and respected, with hard work at his profession ... only to discover, ironically enough, that this brother was scamming him - sabotaging his efforts all along because (as he says) he doesn't believe Jimmy *can* change his character.

Spoke
04-02-2015, 10:49 AM
...Jimmy is an earnest guy really trying to do right as best he can...

Let's not get too carried away with him being Saint Jimmy. He remains an unreformed scam artist. (Remember that he even tried to scam his way into getting the Kettlemans as clients.)

hajario
04-02-2015, 10:52 AM
Thanks, I must have mis-remembered it, it's been a while.

So it mostly hinges on whether Skyler talks ...I need to do a little more reading.

Skylar is going to talk. Walt told her to do so. Walt set it up like he was the mastermind and he was terrorizing Skylar into being complicit in the meth business. It was the only way that he could save her and the kids.

Shakester
04-02-2015, 11:14 AM
Thanks, I must have mis-remembered it, it's been a while.

So it mostly hinges on whether Skyler talks ...I need to do a little more reading.

From the perspective of Jimmy/Saul, the cops knew about his criminal activities, such as laundering the profits of druglord/cop-killer Walt. That's why Saul ran - he didn't know that Skyler was telling the cops anything, but it was wise to assume that she would.

Even after Walt died, the cops would still be looking for Saul. From the perspective of the cops, Saul was a big part of Walt's criminal empire. The cops would be very eager to find Saul, and will be looking for him for a very long time to come.

Whether or not Skyler told the cops anything about Saul - and we don't know for sure that she did - Saul would certainly have to assume that she did. For that matter, Saul had good reason to believe that Huell had been arrested too, which is all the more reason to vanish forever.

Saul is going to be keeping a very low profile for the rest of his life. Or, you know, maybe not - who knows where this series will go before it ends?

Sampiro
04-02-2015, 12:17 PM
Does Saul have money made from Breaking Bad stashed somewhere to hide on?

He was doing well before he met Walt and easily made millions from him, plus he made a fortune from his legitimate career as an ambulance chaser and criminal defender. I'm assuming he (or a dummy company and fake persona he set up) owns the Cinnabon franchise.

Sampiro
04-02-2015, 12:35 PM
Not sure what the policy is on "On the Next BCS" comments, so I'll spoiler:

In the "On the Next BCS" commercial we see that

He hooks up with the big guy who played the rich drunk dude in his wallet/Rolex scam-

Do you think they're going to scam Hamlin somehow?

carnivorousplant
04-02-2015, 12:40 PM
He was doing well before he met Walt and easily made millions from him, plus he made a fortune from his legitimate career as an ambulance chaser and criminal defender. I'm assuming he (or a dummy company and fake persona he set up) owns the Cinnabon franchise.

:)

Suburban Plankton
04-02-2015, 12:44 PM
A very good episode (especially the Mike parts) but I have to say I have a problem watching it slightly similar to just one of the many problems I had with Star Wars 1 to 3: we know how a prequel is going to end ...

Jimmy is really and truly a "good guy" who we are increasingly beginning to care about and we know going into it that he will be a tragic figure. We know that all of this trying to do the right things will end up resulting in his eventual Cinnabon life. There is no chance he, our well intended good guy, will prevail. His every effort to do the right thing for good reasons is in process of destroying his future.

Now we do not know the exact path that that tragedy will follow and kudos to the show runners, writers, and actors for making the unveiling of that path clever and interesting. But a certain tension is removed by our knowing how it must end ... the character we most identify with and like will fall mainly it seems because he's tried to do the right things.

Something about that is making me enjoy this a bit less the more the show goes on.

Is it just me?

I'm sure it's not "just you", but I'm not having that problem.

I went into the show assuming that it would be about "Saul Goodman"; instead the main character is "Jimmy McGill". We know what happens to Saul, but we don't yet know what happens to Jimmy. Sure, eventually the change is going to occur, but we have no idea when or how (or even why, recent events notwithstanding). Jimmy might transform into Saul at the beginning of next season, or the end of next season, or not until the last episode of the series. I'm actually enjoying the show more than I expected to, in large part because it's not the story I was expecting to see. The deeper into "Jimmy's story" we get, the more engaging it becomes...and the less I care about seeing Saul.

This series is all about the journey, not the destination.

Chefguy
04-02-2015, 12:46 PM
McKean is an excellent, excellent actor, he seems to throw off energy to other actors, who toss it back. He also has subtle nuances. That scene in HHM's cleared out conference room when Howard is telling Jimmy that they want the case, but not him, Chuck makes little sputtering, annoyed noises and kind of rolls his eyes, acting like he can't believe it either - that's not easy for an actor to do, act like he's acting.

He did a stint on SNL, skits and impressions ... had excellent comic timing.

Bob Odenkirk also worked on SNL - a writer? - he and Jon Stewart were stand-up buddies in the old days. There is something to be said about comics having an extra skill that enables them to become great serious actors.

That last scene between McKean and Odenkirk -- definitely Emmy worthy.

Odenkirk wrote for SNL and a number of other shows. He was a recurring character on The Larry Sanders Show. He was in one episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm as a retired porn actor, and I'm assuming that he and Larry David worked together earlier on other projects. His character in most everything I've seen him in is as an annoying but amusing person, much like Saul. It's a good niche for him and now it's paying big dividends.

Ellis Dee
04-02-2015, 12:51 PM
Saul was running from the cops, not the neo-Nazis. Surely he was running from both, otherwise the first scene in the pilot doesn't make much sense: While working the counter, he sees a tough gang-looking dude glaring at him and mentally prepares for the worst, only breathe an uneasy sigh of relief when he sees the mistaken goon greet his girlfriend.

Sampiro
04-02-2015, 01:03 PM
Based on Mike's definition of "good criminals", do you think he himself would qualify by the end of Breaking Bad? What about Jimmy/Saul?

Amazing that Mike only exists because Odenkirk wasn't able to film the scene where he cleans up the death scene for Jesse's OD'd girlfriend. Hard to imagine either show without him.

How long do you suppose before major retailers are offering a "space blanket lining" in their suits?

Sampiro
04-02-2015, 01:04 PM
And I think the dumbass embezzler's wife will figure back in, if not in the finale then next season.

And I still think Abuelita is a bitch.

DrCube
04-02-2015, 01:13 PM
And I think the dumbass embezzler's wife will figure back in, if not in the finale then next season.

And I still think Abuelita is a bitch.

For what it's worth, I'm still expecting to see the skateboard twins again, too.

El_Kabong
04-02-2015, 01:23 PM
I'm with those who are saying that Chuck has a point. It seems realistic to me that HHM would not want a guy like Jimmy on their books, however much he may have made it rain with the potential class action suit. Chuck was almost certainly correct about needing HHM's resources to properly pursue the suit, and his greater knowledge and experience of such cases would likely have had benefits both for chance of success and ultimate payout.

Where Chuck went way wrong, however, is in being dishonest with Jimmy, hiding his own reservations behind "the partners", and lying about manipulating the outcome. Pretty crappy behavior for someone who supposedly objects to his brother's reputation for dishonesty, and when called on it, all he can respond with is contemptuous insults. That's all on Chuck, and what makes it so tragic: given what we know about Jimmy/Saul, his conversation with Chuck at the end of the episode puts him irrevocably on the path that leads to that Omaha Cinnabon, and for Chuck knocks away, probably permanently, the support that allowed him to be at least marginally functional despite his clear mental health issues.

There's a real ring of believability to the interactions between these two characters (and those of the characters playing Kim and Hamlin), very much unlike how most TV relationships seem to work, and I guess that's why I'm digging the show so much. Well, that and everything involving Mike; maybe not totally realistic, but so Bogart-level cool it doesn't matter.

brickbacon
04-02-2015, 03:09 PM
I don't think he realizes that he is motivated by caring about his brother, but he's also motivated by jealousy regarding how some things have come easier to Jimmy.

I don't think it's jealousy really. Beyond being more of a people person, Jimmy isn't exactly in any kind of enviable spot.

But I don't think Chuck's instincts were right with Jimmy. I think it's a tragic case of living up to (or down to) expectations.

Maybe, but I think it's hard to tell with what we have seen so far.

I don't know if he would have gotten a position at HHM, it sounds like still he probably wouldn't, but I think he could have still gotten some sort of position at some smaller law firm, or something making money. And if in this alternate universe he still stumbled upon a case like Sandpiper and brought it to HHM, it would be disappointing if they didn't hire him, but not devastating like in this universe. He'd be upset but dust himself off and keep on working. I don't think Jimmy would end up as an Atticus Finch like paragon of virtue, but I don't think he would have ended up as a criminal lawyer. People's expectations of us does have a big affect on how we act. It has a conscious and subconscious affect.

It's an interesting counter factual, but I don't think Jimmy is actually that good a lawyer, and thus his career success would be limited by that more than an overbearing brother.

Also, I think Jimmy didn't tell Chuck that he was getting his law degree was because he had probably told him so many other times that he was getting his life together, and was afraid of disappointing him again. He didn't want to try for it and then fail and see his brother be disappointed. It just happens that this time he didn't fail, so he told his brother after it was all done. But since Chuck didn't see Jimmy trying, he didn't see how hard he worked and how big of a deal it was.

Good point.

Odenkirk wrote for SNL and a number of other shows. He was a recurring character on The Larry Sanders Show. He was in one episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm as a retired porn actor, and I'm assuming that he and Larry David worked together earlier on other projects. His character in most everything I've seen him in is as an annoying but amusing person, much like Saul. It's a good niche for him and now it's paying big dividends.

Surely all of this pales in comparison to his work in Mr. Show, which for some reason no one has mentioned? Here is a Mr. Show law-related skit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcaVSTsYyOI). And another (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxMS59sxwxs) with both Odenkirk and McKean. Who knew what the future held for them.

Where Chuck went way wrong, however, is in being dishonest with Jimmy, hiding his own reservations behind "the partners", and lying about manipulating the outcome.

But couldn't that be as much what you suggested as Chuck wanting to protect Jimmy's feelings? Besides, I doubt the partners want Jimmy either.

Pretty crappy behavior for someone who supposedly objects to his brother's reputation for dishonesty, and when called on it, all he can respond with is contemptuous insults.

There's a huge difference between being a conman and not exercising complete, bald candor when you know it would hurt someone's feelings.

Malthus
04-02-2015, 03:25 PM
There's a huge difference between being a conman and not exercising complete, bald candor when you know it would hurt someone's feelings.

I think it goes beyond simply a white lie to protect Jimmy's feelings.

In essence, Jimmy believed in Chuck. Jimmy had Chuck's back when Chuck was incapacitated. Jimmy was willing to take care of him, bring him his groceries, basically cater to him, keeping him from being committed (when it was in Jimmy's power to have him committed).

But Chuck wasn't willing to believe in Jimmy.

Both had pretty good reasons for not believing in the other - but in the end, Jimmy came through for Chuck, but not the other way around.

ftg
04-02-2015, 03:31 PM
Wow. I don't watch BCS until Wednesday and already there's this huge thread.

It's going to make the season finale hard to follow.

Yet so many interesting things haven't been mentioned.

E.g., I was quickly concerned about the dude Mike took out. This guy has guns (he was conscious enough to know Mike was throwing them into the trash can), is ticked off, and knows that Mike was hired by the vet. This is someone who is going to track Mike down and cause trouble.

The Pill Guy: Mike would never let him behave like that. This is a screw up waiting to happen. Mike would have told the guy to sit in the car and he would have taken care of it.

Throughout the later part of the episode I was practically screaming "Check the call log on your cell phone!" Surprisingly, Chuck was smart enough to erase it off the phone, but not smart enough to know that Jimmy can easily check it via phone company records.

How long is it going to take for all these lawyers to get their own cell phones back? There are just too many lookalikes. And just phones? No laptops, etc.?

I had early on suspected the onset of Chuck's symptoms was due to Jimmy becoming a lawyer. This episode reinforces this.

Sam Lowry
04-02-2015, 03:59 PM
I don't think it's jealousy really. Beyond being more of a people person, Jimmy isn't exactly in any kind of enviable spot.


Jealousy isn't quite the word I was looking for. Maybe a bit of resentment? Chuck seems like some people I know where the older sibling is much older than the younger sibling. They haven't stated their ages, but in real life McKean is 15 years older than Odenkirk. In a lot (not all of course) of those relationships, the older sibling feels like things were harder when they were young, and that the parents have less time and energy for discipline as they get older so the younger sibling gets away with more. They haven't shown any of that on the show, so maybe I'm reading into things, but that's what I would guess is part of their background.

Chuck does love Jimmy, but I'm not sure he likes him all that much, for a variety of reasons. They do very good showing the brother relationship and making it seem very real.


It's an interesting counter factual, but I don't think Jimmy is actually that good a lawyer, and thus his career success would be limited by that more than an overbearing brother.


I don't know much about the law, definitely not enough to say whether Jimmy is good or would have been destined for greatness. If not for his brother, he might have had a successful firm, or he might have just been scraping by, I don't know.

I think what changes his career trajectory is that his brother, someone he's looked up to and admired for so long, still sees him as Slippin' Jimmy, and will always see him as Slippin' Jimmy. He'll never see him as a legitimate lawyer, so why not just act like a "criminal" lawyer. His career success isn't limited by an overbearing brother. His career goals of what he can see himself as being is limited by his brother.

But the season and the show aren't over, so it might be something else that tips him over into becoming Saul, but it's interesting to theorize about.



E.g., I was quickly concerned about the dude Mike took out. This guy has guns (he was conscious enough to know Mike was throwing them into the trash can), is ticked off, and knows that Mike was hired by the vet. This is someone who is going to track Mike down and cause trouble.

The Pill Guy: Mike would never let him behave like that. This is a screw up waiting to happen. Mike would have told the guy to sit in the car and he would have taken care of it.


I assumed that would be the last time we ever see him, but he definitely could pop up again. I don't know if he'd track Mike down, but they could run across each other's paths again. That could be funny or tense.

That would seem out of character for Mike to take over. It's not his deal, he's just security. Did he ever do something like that on Breaking Bad? I honestly don't remember.


I had early on suspected the onset of Chuck's symptoms was due to Jimmy becoming a lawyer. This episode reinforces this.

I hope they show the onset of Chuck's symptoms. I figure it has something to do with stress; being a partner at a law firm would be stressful, and Jimmy becoming a lawyer could add to that stress.

El_Kabong
04-02-2015, 04:16 PM
But couldn't that be as much what you suggested as Chuck wanting to protect Jimmy's feelings? Besides, I doubt the partners want Jimmy either.

I think the writers did a good job of portraying a person mentally justifiying a shitty act as being for someone's "own good". Chuck wasn't doing that to protect Jimmy's feelings, IMO; he did it to protect Chuck (and thereby keep the ice and Coleman lamp fuel coming). Regardless of what he meant, however, he was patronizing Jimmy, and basically assumed he was too clueless to figure out what was going on.

There's a huge difference between being a conman and not exercising complete, bald candor when you know it would hurt someone's feelings.

I'm not interested in getting into an argument over this, but someone calling his brother something like "a chimp with a machine gun" does not impress me as one who is overly concerned with feelings.

And there I'll leave it.

Joey P
04-02-2015, 04:41 PM
The Pill Guy: Mike would never let him behave like that. This is a screw up waiting to happen. Mike would have told the guy to sit in the car and he would have taken care of it.

Mike knew there was very little chance of anything going wrong. That's why he didn't bring a gun and why he knew he was safe going alone. He could have gone out and done the swap himself, but leaving the pull guy out there in the open, and scared, but being right there behind him helps make sure there's more work for him. The pill guy is going to go back and tell the vet about what an amazing job Mike did. I mean, yeah, in the real world he'd never get another job after beating up the other guy, but this is a TV show. The Pill guy is going to give him 5 stars, it probably would have been 4 if he Mike had just jumped out of the car and made the switch himself. Mike got some extra cool points just standing there like nothing was happening.

Of course, if Mike had just done it for him, pill guy would probably request him and happily pay him $1500 each time. That is, if Mike hadn't said 'hey, don't worry about Nacho, he's not going to hurt you', but I think that was more for us.

scoots
04-02-2015, 04:46 PM
Saul may not have to spend his whole life in hiding. Maybe he gets caught by the police but manages to distance himself from the really criminal stuff by using legal privilege (he couldn't tell anyone what he knew because of lawyer/client confidentiality) or he could make it seem like he wasn't aware of any illegal activities. Minimise that side of things. If he does that well the police may not be able to pin anything on him. He's always been pretty good at doing that. Or maybe Chuck redeems himself by coming to Saul's rescue with all the legal might of HHM behind him.

All that would probably only take a couple of episodes to resolve and then Saul is free to resume his life and he's back in the game again. BCS could then carry on and none of us would know what will happen from that point onwards.

brickbacon
04-02-2015, 05:21 PM
I think it goes beyond simply a white lie to protect Jimmy's feelings.

Yes, it's more than a white lie, but I think he was trying to spare Jimmy what likely is a fairly accurate and honest appraisal of his character, ethics, and skills.

In essence, Jimmy believed in Chuck. Jimmy had Chuck's back when Chuck was incapacitated. Jimmy was willing to take care of him, bring him his groceries, basically cater to him, keeping him from being committed (when it was in Jimmy's power to have him committed).

But I would still bet that Chuck has done more for Jimmy than vice versa. Further, this dynamic and the edict that Jimmy not be too closely associated with the legal work of the firm likely occurred a long time ago. Although the phone call likely ironed out the details as it related to this particular case, I think Hamlin knew Chuck's basic feelings a long time ago.

But Chuck wasn't willing to believe in Jimmy.

Likely true, but the question is whether he SHOULD believe in Jimmy? Jimmy is a guy who despite being nice and affable is a conman. Even is the recent past, he is willing to being a lying ambulance chaser. Chuck didn't make him do any of that. I get that the narrative is set up to make you root for Jimmy, but we know he is NOT a good guy. He is a guy willing to cut corners and rationalize his behavior, and Chuck rightfully states how such a person practicing law is a disgrace.

Both had pretty good reasons for not believing in the other - but in the end, Jimmy came through for Chuck, but not the other way around.

I think he did come through for Jimmy. First, with regard to the case, Jimmy would have been fine accepting a minor settlement, leaving millions on the table. Only Chuck was able to see the magnitude of the case. Jimmy was only taken seriously because he is Chuck's brother. Jimmy only was able to print the case law because of Chuck. Chuck was the one who reconstructed the shredded docs. Chuck was the reason a firm like HHM would take a case form a guy like Jimmy. Jimmy doesn't get a meeting without Chuck.

Further, Chuck has likely saved Jimmy countless times in the past. Think about it from Chuck's pov. How many times does he have to stick his neck out for his brother?

Jealousy isn't quite the word I was looking for. Maybe a bit of resentment? Chuck seems like some people I know where the older sibling is much older than the younger sibling. They haven't stated their ages, but in real life McKean is 15 years older than Odenkirk. In a lot (not all of course) of those relationships, the older sibling feels like things were harder when they were young, and that the parents have less time and energy for discipline as they get older so the younger sibling gets away with more. They haven't shown any of that on the show, so maybe I'm reading into things, but that's what I would guess is part of their background.

I think that is probably accurate, although unstated.

Chuck does love Jimmy, but I'm not sure he likes him all that much, for a variety of reasons. They do very good showing the brother relationship and making it seem very real.

I agree, but the question is SHOULD Jimmy like Chuck? If these were real people, why would the average person like someone like Jimmy if they knew his history?

I don't know much about the law, definitely not enough to say whether Jimmy is good or would have been destined for greatness. If not for his brother, he might have had a successful firm, or he might have just been scraping by, I don't know.

It's obviously somewhat speculative, but the reality is that criminal lawyers like what Jimmy becomes are generally not that skilled IMO. Even the minor things like going into a meeting with Mike not knowing at all what is going on, and allowing his client to talk are two things a good lawyer wouldn't do.

I think what changes his career trajectory is that his brother, someone he's looked up to and admired for so long, still sees him as Slippin' Jimmy, and will always see him as Slippin' Jimmy. He'll never see him as a legitimate lawyer, so why not just act like a "criminal" lawyer. His career success isn't limited by an overbearing brother. His career goals of what he can see himself as being is limited by his brother.

I think that is likely Jimmy's rationalization, but remember that he was doing shady things in the recent past before he appreciated how his brother felt. I suppose you can make a case that he felt that before he heard it, but Chuck didn't tell him to try to scam the city accountant's family.

I think the writers did a good job of portraying a person mentally justifiying a shitty act as being for someone's "own good". Chuck wasn't doing that to protect Jimmy's feelings, IMO; he did it to protect Chuck (and thereby keep the ice and Coleman lamp fuel coming). Regardless of what he meant, however, he was patronizing Jimmy, and basically assumed he was too clueless to figure out what was going on.

But how else could Chuck have handled this situation when he was still mentally stable that would have been better and wouldn't have compromised his integrity or their relationship? Chuck, for good reason, fundamentally thinks Jimmy is a dishonest person who would is an unethical lawyer. How do you tell someone that in a way that doesn't sever the relationship?

I'm not interested in getting into an argument over this, but someone calling his brother something like "a chimp with a machine gun" does not impress me as one who is overly concerned with feelings.

Well, I think he was letting loose at that point. Either way, no argument here friend. Just wanted to discuss the show.

soonerblue
04-02-2015, 06:34 PM
Surely all of this pales in comparison to his work in Mr. Show, which for some reason no one has mentioned? Here is a Mr. Show law-related skit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcaVSTsYyOI). And another (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxMS59sxwxs) with both Odenkirk and McKean. Who knew what the future held for them.

Thanks for the clips! How funny! How ironic! You're not a real law professor!

soonerblue
04-02-2015, 06:44 PM
It intrigues me how co-creators Gould and Gilligan sort of make it up as they go along, nothing rigid, nothing written in stone ...which is how the creative process should work. After watching a screening of "Pimento" they commented (http://deadline.com/2015/03/vince-gilligan-better-call-saul-amc-panel-screening-1201399787/)on Jimmy's journey to become Saul:

"According to Gilligan and Gould, how he gets there is less a question of specific steps and more one of establishing motivation. “I worried all through Season 1 that we weren’t getting to Saul Goodman fast enough,” Gilligan said, but added “now I’ve come around 180 degrees and I’m thinking ‘God, I don’t want to get to Saul too quick’, I love Jimmy McGill so much.” The key question, so Gilligan and Gould said, isn’t “how long does it take to turn Jimmy McGill into Saul Goodman,” but “what kind of problem does becoming Saul Goodman solve?”

On second thought, during podcast interviews several of the actors have commented that they stick to the script, the writers are very particular about the story being told in a certain way...the exact words are important.

cactus waltz
04-02-2015, 06:55 PM
Does anyone else think they've painted themselves a bit into a corner as far as Mike's abilities go?

He's been well established as ultimate bad ass, to a ridiculous degree. As a result there is never any dramatic tension, because Mike is simply unbeatable in any situation involving violence or stealth. Not really buying it from his background either, supposedly he's been a dirty cop for many years. The training he has seems more like someone that was special forces or something else...

Kind of doubt that ordinary beat cops get anywhere near his level of skill even after being on the force many years.


I agree completely with this post. In the latest episode I felt that Mike is getting predictably written - any action scene will simply have him perfectly execute the "silent bad-ass" archetype. If he always has to be a perfect killing machine, then at least I would want to see more depth to his personality - something contradictory or unflattering.

Perhaps the writers missed an opportunity in not letting BCS be the period where Mike actually perfects his art, rather than it seeming as having always a part of him.

CarnalK
04-02-2015, 08:05 PM
I agree completely with this post. In the latest episode I felt that Mike is getting predictably written - any action scene will simply have him perfectly execute the "silent bad-ass" archetype. If he always has to be a perfect killing machine, then at least I would want to see more depth to his personality - something contradictory or unflattering.

Perhaps the writers missed an opportunity in not letting BCS be the period where Mike actually perfects his art, rather than it seeming as having always a part of him.

I hear what you're saying but maybe it's just not far back enough to show a big learning curve. They would do well to have him stumped a few times, but he has been a crooked cop for 30 years by this point. ISTM disarming a wannabe and sussing out how a drug deal will probably go should be in his wheelhouse already.

brickbacon
04-02-2015, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the clips! How funny! How ironic! You're not a real law professor!

No problem. Mr. Show is great in general too if you have never seen it. Here are a few other good sketches:

Lie Detector (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvHpVwIqYY)
Angry Marriage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfUv5t71_Xo)
Pre-Taped Call-In Show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrlS9_n8GX4)
The Fairsley Difference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP4yX2rkpBc)
McHutchence vs Greeley III (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCfMgqnq2uo)
Larry Kleist: Rapist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKE9W0O8bX8)
East Coast vs. West Coast Ventriloquism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne0RrK5qJ-k)
Why Me? The Bob Lamonta Story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPjYSay9g0)
Great Seeing You Again Guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AISLBrQ-ODE)
The Audition (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-ZNX1jqbOk)

Charlie Wayne
04-02-2015, 08:34 PM
OK. So ..... may I make a prediction?

So what if someone makes a winning guess and someone else makes a losing guess. What impact will that have on anyone here?

I doubt the impact will be much of anything or that it will make much difference either way. Someone will be right and someone else will be wrong. If the two predictions are opposites, then it can't really be helped if things turn out in diametrically opposite directions. It would really have to be required to work out that way. Wouldn't it? It won't make much difference either way, will it?

CarnalK
04-02-2015, 08:36 PM
I loved Mr. Show which is why I am very happy Odenkirk has gotten this gig.

People make predictions all the time guy. Go for it. Many spoiler box it though, because a lot of people don't want to see a million guesses, one of which is probably correct. Lol.

Patch
04-02-2015, 10:05 PM
E.g., I was quickly concerned about the dude Mike took out. This guy has guns (he was conscious enough to know Mike was throwing them into the trash can), is ticked off, and knows that Mike was hired by the vet. This is someone who is going to track Mike down and cause trouble.

The guy's a poser who reads too much Soldier of Fortune. Not only do I doubt he could track down Mike, he wouldn't stand a chance if he did.

With Mr. Pill's recommendation, and Mike's comments, I bet he could convince the Vet that the guy was bad news, and he erred in recommending him. I suspect it's through the Vet that Mike begins to select his own crew, which is what he has established in Breaking Bad. "If' I"'m doing this job, I'm picking my own guys. Who have you got?"

Stephe96
04-02-2015, 11:34 PM
I'm thinking Hank will show up at some point.

Shakester
04-03-2015, 12:09 AM
Surely he was running from both, otherwise the first scene in the pilot doesn't make much sense: While working the counter, he sees a tough gang-looking dude glaring at him and mentally prepares for the worst, only breathe an uneasy sigh of relief when he sees the mistaken goon greet his girlfriend.

I don't see why the neo-Nazis would be after Saul. I don't recall them ever meeting Saul, in fact.

Saul's face would have been on the TV and in the newspapers, as a suspect wanted in the the Heisenberg case. There would be a reward for information leading to his arrest. That's what he was worried about. Not neo-Nazis, just someone recognising his face.

Joey P
04-03-2015, 12:29 AM
I don't see why the neo-Nazis would be after Saul. I don't recall them ever meeting Saul, in fact.

Saul's face would have been on the TV and in the newspapers, as a suspect wanted in the the Heisenberg case. There would be a reward for information leading to his arrest. That's what he was worried about. Not neo-Nazis, just someone recognising his face.
And the bigger problem with that is that his face is plastered all over billboards and buses and everywhere else because he advertises so much. Everyone in ABQ knows what he looks like just like you know what some of the local ambulance chasers and bankruptcy lawyers in your town look like. I think that was part of the reason why he had to disappear.


Here's something I'm going to toss out there. A few weeks back a co-worker of mine said something to the effect of 'I think Chuck [WRT his disease] is setting Jimmy up, I don't know how or why and I know it doesn't even make sense, but that's my guess'. I was going to mention it here just to get it on record, but it seemed so off the wall I just left it alone.
Based on what we've discussed in this thread about how Chuck's illness gets better and worse with Jimmy's behavior and the fact that (as far as I can recall) Jimmy never mentioned Chuck in BB, I'm going to guess that as Jimmy turns into Saul and goes from 'kinda scammy' to full blown criminal lawyer, Chuck's illness will cause him to kill himself.
I have some other ideas on why there's no Chuck in BB, but that's the one I'll lock myself into, for now. The only wiggle room I'll give maybe all or part of the reason for Chuck offing himself is because of guilt over what he did to Jimmy or Jimmy abandoning himself and starting his own life. Either way I'm thinking that his mental illness will cause him to take his own life and Jimmy will play into it.

soonerblue
04-03-2015, 07:24 AM
[QUOTE=Sampiro;18258256]And I think the dumbass embezzler's wife will figure back in, if not in the finale then next season. QUOTE]

Oh I agree, we haven't seen the last of Betsy Kettleman ...so many fans loved her that the show's creators hinted they couldn't discard such a rich character. I can't wait.

soonerblue
04-03-2015, 07:29 AM
No problem. Mr. Show is great in general too if you have never seen it. Here are a few other good sketches:

Lie Detector (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvHpVwIqYY)
Angry Marriage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfUv5t71_Xo)
Pre-Taped Call-In Show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrlS9_n8GX4)
The Fairsley Difference (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP4yX2rkpBc)
McHutchence vs Greeley III (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCfMgqnq2uo)
Larry Kleist: Rapist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKE9W0O8bX8)
East Coast vs. West Coast Ventriloquism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne0RrK5qJ-k)
Why Me? The Bob Lamonta Story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPjYSay9g0)
Great Seeing You Again Guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AISLBrQ-ODE)
The Audition (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-ZNX1jqbOk)

Wow, more goodies, thanks for taking the trouble. I thought it was Jimmy McGill that I was in love with, when really, it's Bob Odenkirk.

soonerblue
04-03-2015, 07:36 AM
I'm thinking Hank will show up at some point.

As am I ...also waiting for the chicken man, Gus Fring. Giancarlo Esposito really wants a part in Saul, and decidedly to be pro-active about it. He told fans somewhere online, "I told Vince Gilligan: If you do not put me in Better Call Saul, I will kill your wife. I will kill your son. I will kill your infant daughter."

soonerblue
04-03-2015, 07:50 AM
My 2 cents on Jimmy's good or bad character....

Flashback Jimmy in a Cicero (?) jail - "I know I'm a lousy brother. I'm a lousy brother, I'm a big screw up, and if I was just a better person, I would not only stop letting you down, you know what, I'd stop letting me down. And it's about time that I started to make both of us proud."

That was a guy who was tired of living the sleazy life*, bringing shame on his family, disappointing his Atticus Finch brother ... he truly wants to start literally doing everything he can to fight against his baser instincts and walk the straight and narrow ...a man struggling to do the right thing.

And he succeeds in a way, works in the mail room, gets his law degree, works as a public defender to make Chuck proud, etc. ... but $750 a pop has him on the edge of poverty. Chuck is ill, can't work, and Jimmy tears up the HHM checks because he thinks it a scam to cheat Chuck out of his share of the firm - still don't know the back story on that. So Jimmy starts drifting to the skateboarding-twins-shady side to make some money .....

*Can anyone explain what a "Chicago Sun Roof" is ... without embarrassing me half to death?

soonerblue
04-03-2015, 07:57 AM
About the future...

On one of those podcasts I heard the writer and director of "Pimento" -Tom Schnauz - say that there was originally a six minute opening flashback of pre-teen Jimmy which had to be cut for time reasons. Six minutes is a long time. Instead of trying to trim it to death, he saved it for another episode next season. It shows a very young Jimmy McGill back in the day, like nine years old.

That ought to tell us something. But what?

DrCube
04-03-2015, 08:08 AM
*Can anyone explain what a "Chicago Sun Roof" is ... without embarrassing me half to death?

No. That's the point. They made it up for the show. Sure sounds sleazy though, doesn't it?

carnivorousplant
04-03-2015, 08:09 AM
About the future...

On one of those podcasts I heard the writer and director of "Pimento" -Tom Schnauz - say that there was originally a six minute opening flashback of pre-teen Jimmy which had to be cut for time reasons. Six minutes is a long time. Instead of trying to trim it to death, he saved it for another episode next season. It shows a very young Jimmy McGill back in the day, like nine years old.

That ought to tell us something. But what?

Perhaps Chuck beat up his little brother.

DrCube
04-03-2015, 10:46 AM
Perhaps Chuck beat up his little brother.

If the actors' age difference is approximately their age difference in the show, that would be a 25 year old Chuck beating up a 9 year old Jimmy. That's pretty messed up even for the McGill boys. I can imagine Chuck saying something that has quite an effect on Jimmy at that age though...

SykoSkotty
04-03-2015, 11:33 AM
Perhaps we'll come to find out that Jimmy's actually adopted? That might explain Chuck's resentment towards Jimmy.

carnivorousplant
04-03-2015, 12:14 PM
Perhaps we'll come to find out that Jimmy's actually adopted? That might explain Chuck's resentment towards Jimmy.

I think Mom always liked Jimmy best.

carnivorousplant
04-03-2015, 12:16 PM
If the actors' age difference is approximately their age difference in the show, that would be a 25 year old Chuck beating up a 9 year old Jimmy. That's pretty messed up even for the McGill boys. I can imagine Chuck saying something that has quite an effect on Jimmy at that age though...

Adam Cartwright was older than hid Pa, so that might not hold over. :)

CarnalK
04-03-2015, 12:59 PM
*Can anyone explain what a "Chicago Sun Roof" is ... without embarrassing me half to death?
While I guess they just made it up, I assumed it meant flashing a moon.

soonerblue
04-03-2015, 08:25 PM
Perhaps we'll come to find out that Jimmy's actually adopted? That might explain Chuck's resentment towards Jimmy.

Ooh, OR could Jimmy be Chuck's son?!

soonerblue
04-03-2015, 08:31 PM
While I guess they just made it up, I assumed it meant flashing a moon.

Maybe so ... don't know why I connected it with Jimmy potentially going to prison as a sex offender ... that would be a pretty wild "moon."

Acsenray
04-03-2015, 08:41 PM
I think Jimmy and Chuck's relationship is clear and logical and doesn't require any additional information to explain.

Chuck loves Jimmy but doesn't respect him or trust him and doesn't think he has the character to be trusted as a lawyer.

He is willing to help him but he has a limit. He didn't want Jimmy as a lawyer in his firm but also didn't want to be the one to tell him that.

Jimmy caught him out and Chuck spilled his guts. That kind of thing is quite realistic. He still feels bad about hurting Jimmy's feelings, but I doubt he will change his mind.

carnivorousplant
04-03-2015, 09:08 PM
Given the money Saul has to hide out, having not watched Breaking Bad, how much money does one make from making meth like blue sky?

Acsenray
04-03-2015, 09:18 PM
Given the money Saul has to hide out, having not watched Breaking Bad, how much money does one make from making meth like blue sky?

Skyler filled a huge pallet in a storage unit and was unable to figure out how many millions were there. It was more than they would ever be able to launder or even spend in their lifetimes.

crucible
04-03-2015, 10:33 PM
I thought about that as well. If there were 12 bottles and each bottle had a hundred pills and they were 80 milligram oxy's (all assumptions except for the 80mg part) that's 1200 pills. Call that $50 per pill street price, that's $60K. At wholesale, maybe he got $30,000 for the box. I can count money at a reasonable fast pace, but it takes me about 30 seconds to count a thousand dollars in 20's and I wouldn't be able to do it inside an envelope.
I agree that they may have tried to keep it brief, but they should have made it more realistic as well. 300 one hundred dollar bills would have been easier to count and they could have shown him awkwardly/nervously counting them in the minivan while Mike is standing there. They could have even thrown in a mix of 20's so they could use that line. Mostly hundreds and a few twenties would only take him 2 or 3 minutes to count.


No, on the face of it, it doesn't. I'm sure even Jimmy didn't feel screwed at the time. But that's not the point, the point is that the real reason he didn't get the job is because Chuck told Howard not to hire him. There's no other reason for it. None. Chuck told Howard (and/or the other partners) not to hire Jimmy. We can only speculate at his true reasons for doing it, but that's the reason he didn't get hired. Hell, maybe HHM wouldn't have hired Jimmy on their own, but they didn't even have to make that decision.
And FWIW, I'm willing to bet if Howard had gone to the partners and said 'My brother got his law degree, I'd like to bring him out of the mail room" they would have.

Just a thought....if Pryce looked into the bag and saw, say, 4 twenties, or 9, or counted 14....along with some larger denomination bills, some wrapped 50's, 100's...it might be why he would say, tentatively, "I think they shorted me a twenty"

carnivorousplant
04-04-2015, 12:22 AM
Skyler filled a huge pallet in a storage unit and was unable to figure out how many millions were there. It was more than they would ever be able to launder or even spend in their lifetimes.

If she talks to the cops, she loses it, I would think.
She had better call Saul.

scabpicker
04-04-2015, 04:08 AM
I don't have too much to add, other than I re-watched ep 1 with my wife, and in the "Address Unknown" opener, Saul absolutely fears the Neo-Nazis. He thinks one is staring at him and approaching him at the Cinnabon, and he sweats it. They're obviously not the only ones who would like to find him, but I'm sure he'd rather be found by the cops if he was sure to be caught.

Shakester
04-04-2015, 04:51 AM
I don't have too much to add, other than I re-watched ep 1 with my wife, and in the "Address Unknown" opener, Saul absolutely fears the Neo-Nazis. He thinks one is staring at him and approaching him at the Cinnabon, and he sweats it. They're obviously not the only ones who would like to find him, but I'm sure he'd rather be found by the cops if he was sure to be caught.

And again I need to say it: I rewatched Breaking Bad in its entirety over the last couple of months, and there is no scene where Saul interacts with the neo-Nazis. Now, Saul would have known about them, very likely, and vice versa, but there is no reason to believe that the neo-Nazis would be after Saul.

If you can find a scene in Breaking Bad that shows why they'd be after him, go ahead and remind me of it. Not your assumption, something in the actual show.

Saul fears RECOGNITION, and the people most likely to recognise him (and who'd be most interested in a reward for doing so) would be his ex-clients. Who include, of course, all sorts of low-lifes. The guy in that scene had nothing to connect him to the neo-Nazis, he just looked like a regular guy. Short hair, nylon jacket. Could possibly be a neo-Nazi, but there is nothing about him to make that any more likely than that he's just some guy. Again, you are welcome to do a screen cap and post it with your annotations proving him to be a neo-Nazi, but I'm looking at his picture on my screen right now, and I don't see it. He could just as likely be a cop as a neo-Nazi. But in fact he's just some guy who was looking past Saul, not right at him.

soonerblue
04-04-2015, 06:43 AM
Some of us keep wondering why Kim is never mentioned in BB ... maybe she eventually married Howard. That certainly would've kicked the last peg out from under Jimmy.

The same writers wrote about a certain chemist who was in love with his lab assistant, and formed Gray Matter Technologies with his friend, and somehow his lab love ended up married to said friend, who bought the chemist's share of GMT for $5,000 ... a company that went on to be worth 2 billion dollars ... and had been started with said chemist's research.

Not exactly the same ...but makes me wonder ... both men were cheated out of their fortune and their true love, both quit trying to earn a meager living the legal way ...

Ah well, I need to stop thinking about this show ... next I'll be comparing fatty cinnamon buns to the only slightly more addictive blue meth.

BTW - my cable company sez AMC will start a BCS marathon at 11:15 a.m. on April 6.

Acsenray
04-04-2015, 08:11 AM
Definitely something bad happens with Kim. I've been expecting her to betray Jimmy from the first time she appeared.

carnivorousplant
04-04-2015, 08:46 AM
My first thought is that someone kills her.

MaxTheVool
04-04-2015, 10:55 AM
It's worth pointing out that we end up seeing basically zero about Saul's private life over the run of Breaking Bad, so it's certainly not automatically the case that if Kim was still alive and still Jimmy/Saul's friend we would have known about it.

Although I do agree that it's more likely that when the Jimmy/Saul transition is complete she will be out of the picture for some reason.

Acsenray
04-04-2015, 12:11 PM
Doesn't Saul at least mention in passing having an ex-wife?

hajario
04-04-2015, 12:54 PM
Doesn't Saul at least mention in passing having an ex-wife?

He makes a quip involving an exwife but it could just be a smart ass remark.

Joey P
04-04-2015, 12:56 PM
Doesn't Saul at least mention in passing having an ex-wife?

He makes a quip involving an exwife but it could just be a smart ass remark.

Two ex-wives IIRC, or at least the mention of a 'second ex-wife' and I'm willing to bet that's going to play into BCS somehow. I only say that because it was used as an example on the podcast when talking about all the throwaway lines that Saul had on BB that suddenly became canon. Vince even said they don't have to stick to every.single.one, but they said they're going to do their best to do it.

scabpicker
04-04-2015, 02:29 PM
And again I need to say it: I rewatched Breaking Bad in its entirety over the last couple of months, and there is no scene where Saul interacts with the neo-Nazis. Now, Saul would have known about them, very likely, and vice versa, but there is no reason to believe that the neo-Nazis would be after Saul.

If you can find a scene in Breaking Bad that shows why they'd be after him, go ahead and remind me of it. Not your assumption, something in the actual show.


And all I'm saying is that he fears them. They're a gang, and a particularly thuggish one at that, they'd only need to associate him with WW, and he'd be a target. Probably no-one alive in the Nazi gang can piece that together, but Saul's far from sure about that.


The guy in that scene had nothing to connect him to the neo-Nazis, he just looked like a regular guy. Short hair, nylon jacket. Could possibly be a neo-Nazi, but there is nothing about him to make that any more likely than that he's just some guy.

That doesn't look like just a nylon jacket, that's a variety of bomber jacket. I've never known anyone my age or younger who wore one that I didn't consider a Neo-Nazi.

El_Kabong
04-04-2015, 02:29 PM
Definitely something bad happens with Kim. I've been expecting her to betray Jimmy from the first time she appeared.

Agreed on the first part, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Jimmy doing something (maybe inadvertently) that drives her away from him permanently.

Jack of Words
04-04-2015, 04:22 PM
Agreed on the first part, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Jimmy doing something (maybe inadvertently) that drives her away from him permanently.

Certainly. It seems to me you don't introduce a character like Kim, who inexplicably dates considerably beneath her potential, unless she's going to hurt our hero.

Don't Panic
04-04-2015, 04:32 PM
who inexplicably dates considerably beneath her potential
[Jessica Rabbit] He makes me laugh. [/Jessica Rabbit]

soonerblue
04-04-2015, 06:32 PM
[Jessica Rabbit] He makes me laugh. [/Jessica Rabbit]

Yes indeed ...as when he was giving her a pedicure, telling her about the talking toilet – ‘Give it to me, Chandler. I want it all!’ – and doing a little schtick about a piece of corn, making her laugh ...had the makin’s of some serious foreplay …alas, interrupted by a phone call.

carnivorousplant
04-04-2015, 08:08 PM
I've not seen Breaking Bad, but Saul seemed very worried about a guy who did not at all look like a policeman.
:dubious:

ftg
04-05-2015, 09:40 AM
Now we know how evil Chuck is, this leads me to some very dark speculation about the Kim/Jimmy backstory. Suppose back when Kim and Jimmy were a couple and Jimmy now has his law degree, Jimmy's law business was really taking off. Maybe he even outdid Chuck in something. Chuck starts to ruin Jimmy's life. Perhaps he tells Kim about Slippin' Jimmy and other things. Breaks them up, etc.:(

And with Chuck's condition, Jimmy has had to put his own needs on hold to help out Chuck.

It would be interesting if we start to see Howard Hamlin in a different light. Some poor guy stuck in the middle of a family feud just trying to hold a law firm together. Maybe Chuck has something on Hamlin other than partner leverage, forcing Hamlin to do his bidding.

I do hope that the Jimmy/Mike storylines interconnect more. But apparently not anytime soon with Jimmy hanging out with his Chicago buddy.

Acsenray
04-05-2015, 09:48 AM
Evil? That's a bit hyperbolic. It's clear to me he doesn't want to destroy Jimmy.

Sherrerd
04-05-2015, 03:04 PM
Agreed on the first part, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Jimmy doing something (maybe inadvertently) that drives her away from him permanently.

Or: Jimmy doing something (maybe inadvertently) that gets her killed.



Certainly. It seems to me you don't introduce a character like Kim, who inexplicably dates considerably beneath her potential, unless she's going to hurt our hero.

Could be, but don't betrayals hurt more when the betrayer is someone who, in some sense, "owes" you loyalty and/or love? (As with Chuck--as a brother, he owes Jimmy a degree of support and faith that he fails to give.)

Kim being above Jimmy in status makes her someone who does NOT owe him. (Instead, he owes her.) So my guess is that she will be lost to him through being taken away against her will (probably by being killed), rather than being lost to him through becoming his betrayer.

Critical1
04-05-2015, 07:54 PM
I can't find the post but someone mentioned they cut a 6 minute bit from what back when Saul was 9 or 10...I will hazard the guess that its 6 minutes that shows Chuck putting the Slippin in Slippin Jimmy. He convinces a young Jimmy to pull some sort of scam.

Joey P
04-05-2015, 08:07 PM
I've not seen Breaking Bad, but Saul seemed very worried about a guy who did not at all look like a policeman.
:dubious:

I remember the scene but I don't remember what the guy looked like enough to be able to argue it with the people upthread. Either way, that's one of the few scenes that it would have helped to know the backstory. But you didn't really miss much, what with all the time jumps and the fact that in the 8 (9?) episodes so far, they've spent almost no time exploring that end of things (post Breaking Bad).

The Better Call Saul commercials were that are played ad the intro are made pre Breaking Bad (or during BB), but it's supposed to be him watching them post Breaking Bad, that's about it.

So far, IMO, they've kept their promise that this show will stand alone and, again IMO, anything in BCS that relates to BB is more of an Easter Egg or something that just fills in some details in BB.

I do assume people that have no working knowledge of BB might wonder why the show started with him in a Cinnabon with a different name..a different name then the other two he's currently using.

hajario
04-05-2015, 08:34 PM
I can't find the post but someone mentioned they cut a 6 minute bit from what back when Saul was 9 or 10...I will hazard the guess that its 6 minutes that shows Chuck putting the Slippin in Slippin Jimmy. He convinces a young Jimmy to pull some sort of scam.

It may end up as an extra on the DVD or we will see it at some time in the future.

I do assume people that have no working knowledge of BB might wonder why the show started with him in a Cinnabon with a different name..a different name then the other two he's currently using.

Almost all of them will know the basics which is that he had change his identity and that this show takes place years before. Even if they don't, the show does indeed stand on its own.

BCS has hugely exceeded my expectations and from what we have seen so far could end up being just as good as BB.

Joey P
04-05-2015, 08:45 PM
It may end up as an extra on the DVD or we will see it at some time in the future.
On the podcast they said it won't be part of the DVD extras. As of right now they intend to try to work it into another episode.




BCS has hugely exceeded my expectations and from what we have seen so far could end up being just as good as BB.
Mine too, and it keeps getting better every single week. Breaking Bad was amazing, but this show is getting better faster than BB did. That is, when this show is over, I don't think we're going to see threads every few months with people saying they just watched the first season/first 3 episodes/first half season etc and they want to know if it's going to get better.


As for the show, when I first heard it pitched, I heard that it was going to be about all the wacky clients in Saul's waiting room and the going's on in his office. I mean, we may get there, but I really thought it was going to be more of a sitcom. This was a big surprise for me.

hajario
04-05-2015, 09:06 PM
As for the show, when I first heard it pitched, I heard that it was going to be about all the wacky clients in Saul's waiting room and the going's on in his office. I mean, we may get there, but I really thought it was going to be more of a sitcom. This was a big surprise for me.

I heard the same thing which was the reason for my low expectations. In fact, I had like six episodes sitting on my DVR before I bothered to watch the first one. I am so glad that they went in the direction that they did and that they decided on a slow burn. We might not see Saul for a couple of years and that's fine by me.

splatterpunk
04-05-2015, 09:14 PM
As for the show, when I first heard it pitched, I heard that it was going to be about all the wacky clients in Saul's waiting room and the going's on in his office. I mean, we may get there, but I really thought it was going to be more of a sitcom. This was a big surprise for me.

Yep. Gilligan mentioned in one of the podcasts that the original idea was a half hour comedy. Thank god he came to his senses.

rock party
04-05-2015, 10:57 PM
I, too, don't think Chuck is evil. Jimmy has been a screw-up/con artist most of his adult life.
He gets a questionable law degree and now wants to work at Chucks firm. It's no surprise that Chuck would be uncomfortable, especially with other partners to answer to. I've been in a somewhat similar "hiring" position, and had friends with spotty work ethics want a job, and it is a very uncomfortable position. Chuck want's Jimmy to do well as a lawyer, just not at his firm.

And I agree this show has exceeded my expectations. Well drawn characters, interesting believable plot lines. I'm gonna be jonesin' for a year till season 2.

Sam Lowry
04-06-2015, 08:23 AM
Based on what we've discussed in this thread about how Chuck's illness gets better and worse with Jimmy's behavior and the fact that (as far as I can recall) Jimmy never mentioned Chuck in BB, I'm going to guess that as Jimmy turns into Saul and goes from 'kinda scammy' to full blown criminal lawyer, Chuck's illness will cause him to kill himself.
I have some other ideas on why there's no Chuck in BB, but that's the one I'll lock myself into, for now. The only wiggle room I'll give maybe all or part of the reason for Chuck offing himself is because of guilt over what he did to Jimmy or Jimmy abandoning himself and starting his own life. Either way I'm thinking that his mental illness will cause him to take his own life and Jimmy will play into it.

I would be very surprised if that happened. Chuck sees Jimmy as "Slippin Jimmy", so I would think it wouldn't be a huge surprise to Chuck if Jimmy became a full criminal lawyer. I think Chuck would be upset and maybe cut him off and never speak to him again, but not kill himself.

If Chuck does die, I would guess it'd be much more likely to be by accident from using one of the lanterns and burning inside of his house or something like that. Or murdered by someone associated with a shady client Jimmy gets.

Joey P
04-06-2015, 09:33 AM
I would be very surprised if that happened. Chuck sees Jimmy as "Slippin Jimmy", so I would think it wouldn't be a huge surprise to Chuck if Jimmy became a full criminal lawyer. I think Chuck would be upset and maybe cut him off and never speak to him again, but not kill himself.

If Chuck does die, I would guess it'd be much more likely to be by accident from using one of the lanterns and burning inside of his house or something like that. Or murdered by someone associated with a shady client Jimmy gets.

One of the brothers cutting off the other one seems to be the way they're heading. I could also see the lanterns killing Chuck (fire, CO). Chuck killing himself is just a guess.

Acsenray
04-06-2015, 10:01 AM
One of the brothers cutting off the other one seems to be the way they're heading. I could also see the lanterns killing Chuck (fire, CO). Chuck killing himself is just a guess.

The lantern thing has been foreshadowed, so I would be surprised if there was no fire at some point, whether or not it kills Chuck.

hajario
04-06-2015, 11:36 AM
Chuck has been abandoned. Jimmy has given him his last allotment of ice, bacon and fuel. He has to figure out a way to feed himself and have heat and light. It should be interesting.

Suburban Plankton
04-06-2015, 11:37 AM
And again I need to say it: I rewatched Breaking Bad in its entirety over the last couple of months, and there is no scene where Saul interacts with the neo-Nazis. Now, Saul would have known about them, very likely, and vice versa, but there is no reason to believe that the neo-Nazis would be after Saul.

If you can find a scene in Breaking Bad that shows why they'd be after him, go ahead and remind me of it. Not your assumption, something in the actual show.

Saul fears RECOGNITION, and the people most likely to recognise him (and who'd be most interested in a reward for doing so) would be his ex-clients. Who include, of course, all sorts of low-lifes. The guy in that scene had nothing to connect him to the neo-Nazis, he just looked like a regular guy. Short hair, nylon jacket. Could possibly be a neo-Nazi, but there is nothing about him to make that any more likely than that he's just some guy. Again, you are welcome to do a screen cap and post it with your annotations proving him to be a neo-Nazi, but I'm looking at his picture on my screen right now, and I don't see it. He could just as likely be a cop as a neo-Nazi. But in fact he's just some guy who was looking past Saul, not right at him.

Present-day Saul (who we've seen only in the first-scene flash-forward) fears EVERYONE. The cops, the Cartel, the Neo-Nazis, any of his former clients, the ghost of Walter White...anyone and everyone who walks into his Cinnabon could turn out to be the one that recognizes him and turns him in. But I don't think that's relevant to BCS in any meaningful way; it's only there to serve as the link between the two shows. I think it will be a long time before we see Saul in all his Breaking Bad glory, and that's fine with me. There's plenty of backstory to go before Jimmy makes his transformation.

Going in to this show, I was looking forward to seeing how Saul met and interacted with all of the folks that we knew from Breaking Bad. Nine episodes later, I find myself hardly caring if we ever make it to 'present day'. I have no idea what Vince Gilligan and crew have planned for the overall story arc, but I wouldn't be shocked (or disappointed, based on what I've seen so far) if we didn't meet "Saul Goodman" until the final scene of the final episode of the series.

carnivorousplant
04-06-2015, 12:06 PM
The lantern thing has been foreshadowed, so I would be surprised if there was no fire at some point, whether or not it kills Chuck.

A very good point.

hajario
04-06-2015, 12:21 PM
Present-day Saul (who we've seen only in the first-scene flash-forward) fears EVERYONE. The cops, the Cartel, the Neo-Nazis, any of his former clients, the ghost of Walter White...anyone and everyone who walks into his Cinnabon could turn out to be the one that recognizes him and turns him in. But I don't think that's relevant to BCS in any meaningful way; it's only there to serve as the link between the two shows.

That's correct. He thought that he saw the guy staring at him but he was actually staring past him at his family. No one knows where he is but you never know who will show up in Omaha by chance. I was in a little bed and breakfast in a small town in Chianti and my then wife recognized a couple who were the parents of a good friend of hers from college. They hadn't seen each other in something like fifteen years. It's a small world.

Alan Smithee
04-06-2015, 12:38 PM
Going in to this show, I was looking forward to seeing how Saul met and interacted with all of the folks that we knew from Breaking Bad. Nine episodes later, I find myself hardly caring if we ever make it to 'present day'. I have no idea what Vince Gilligan and crew have planned for the overall story arc, but I wouldn't be shocked (or disappointed, based on what I've seen so far) if we didn't meet "Saul Goodman" until the final scene of the final episode of the series.

That is certainly the way the show is going, and I had the same reaction. Someone posted earlier that Vince Gilligan himself said in a podcast that he started off worrying that we wouldn't get to Saul soon enough, and now he thinks the danger would be getting there too quickly. All of which makes me think that the first three episodes of season two will all take place in the present-day Cinnabon store. Because that's just how VG rolls.

IvoryTowerDenizen
04-06-2015, 12:40 PM
Going in to this show, I was looking forward to seeing how Saul met and interacted with all of the folks that we knew from Breaking Bad. Nine episodes later, I find myself hardly caring if we ever make it to 'present day'. I have no idea what Vince Gilligan and crew have planned for the overall story arc, but I wouldn't be shocked (or disappointed, based on what I've seen so far) if we didn't meet "Saul Goodman" until the final scene of the final episode of the series.

Really well said.

hajario
04-06-2015, 12:58 PM
Some very minor spoilers in this (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/better-call-saul-finale-bob-786234) article lead me to believe that tonight's final is going to be epic. I can't wait.

Joey P
04-06-2015, 01:04 PM
The lantern thing has been foreshadowed, so I would be surprised if there was no fire at some point, whether or not it kills Chuck.

What's been foreshadowed with the lanterns? It's certainly possible I'm not remembering something (ie something briefly catching fire or Jimmy mentioning something about airing the CO out of the place, Chuck falling asleep and knocking one over), but just their existence in the show isn't really a foreshadow. A Chekhov's Gun, maybe, but that's it.

Jack of Words
04-06-2015, 01:21 PM
What's been foreshadowed with the lanterns? It's certainly possible I'm not remembering something (ie something briefly catching fire or Jimmy mentioning something about airing the CO out of the place, Chuck falling asleep and knocking one over), but just their existence in the show isn't really a foreshadow. A Chekhov's Gun, maybe, but that's it.

I'm pretty sure the danger was mentioned, probably by the doctor, when Chuck was about to be sectioned.

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