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-   -   The Nancy Pelosi appreciation thread (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=869085)

Locrian 06-01-2019 11:03 PM

^^ :eek::D

(Locrian microwaves popcorn)

asahi 06-01-2019 11:07 PM

You will be educated, John. I will teach you, if you're not too fucking arrogant, that is.

Walken After Midnight 06-01-2019 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21675980)
Fuck it.

Impeach now.

Right now.

Call your reps up, and demand impeachment.

I'm not sure I'd start an impeachment inquiry just yet, personally. The various court cases are being expedited, so I'd be inclined to hold off for a bit longer until the Committees get all the evidence they need, or until the White House becomes completely non-compliant with court orders.

I don't see it being that much of a big deal between those who would start impeachment now, and those who would have some hearings and gather evidence first, and therefore don't think it should be a divisive issue among Democrats. In fact, it may be a good thing to have the impeach-now people out there promoting the cause, building up pressure and public awareness, and the impeach-later people holding them back until the right moment to impeach with maximum effectiveness.

asahi 06-01-2019 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight (Post 21676031)
I'm not sure I'd start an impeachment inquiry just yet, personally. The various court cases are being expedited, so I'd be inclined to hold off for a bit longer until the Committees get all the evidence they need, or until the White House becomes completely non-compliant with court orders.

I don't see it being that much of a big deal between those who would start impeachment now, and those who would have some hearings and gather evidence first, and therefore don't think it should be a divisive issue among Democrats. In fact, it may be a good thing to have the impeach-now people out there promoting the cause, building up pressure and public awareness, and the impeach-later people holding them back until the right moment to impeach with maximum effectiveness.

Impeach now. That's what you fucking imbeciles are saying. Do it now. Don't think, just do it.

Impeachment feels good - just do it.

Don't worry about politics, it just feels good. It's the right thing to do.

asahi 06-01-2019 11:21 PM

If you all don't want impeachment right now, this minute, this day, this week...then shut up.

kaylasdad99 06-01-2019 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 21675750)
We're in a different world now. Trump's approval will be between 40% and 42.5%, just like it's been since early last year, no matter what.

Why that should be an obstacle to impeachment, fuck-all if you've ever explained that. You don't need the 40% to be OK with it, just the people who voted Dem last year, though winning over some of the remaining 5-8% undecideds wouldn't hurt.

Whatever the new House members actually ran on, what carried them in was a wave of anti-Trump antipathy. That antipathy is still there. That, plus actually seeing the case against Trump, should more than suffice.

Now remember, we're not talking about removal, because just like we're not in Nixon's world, we're not in a world where 20 GOP Senators are going to vote to give Trump the boot. We're just talking about making Trump politically toxic to everyone but his hardcore 40%. That's the goal here.

Stipulated. But the argument being advanced by the Pelosi supporters is that that goal is most effectively advanced by allowing the Democratic-controlled HoR to maintain control of the narrative as long as possible, making him look more toxic by the day. As soon as Articles of impeachment are presented, the House has to stop finding and reporting factual toxic items, and turn the shootin’ match over to the Senate where the impeachment managers will be effectively shut down by McConnell and his gang railroading an acquittal through.

It doesn’t seem to me that you have effectively rebutted this argument, even though I have a hazy memory of your having briefly acknowledged that it exists.

Y’all may insist that the America-hating fuckstick doesn’t really want an impeachment. But he CLEARLY does want the political benefit of an acquittal in front of a populace with the attention span of a goldfish. If Nancy has to give him that in the end, so be it. But the Democratic Party needs to get some 2020 campaign fodder before giving it to him.

kaylasdad99 06-01-2019 11:29 PM

Missed the edit window: Go home, asahi. You’re drunk. :D

JohnT 06-01-2019 11:31 PM

"Hey, motherfuckers! Stop!"

Asahi and his friends, Chris and Dave, stop, turn around.

"That's better. Give me your lunch money or me and my friend will kick your asses."

"Says who, asshole? Last time I looked, there's three of us and two of you. Want your asses kicked? I'm ready to go... Dave?"

Dave, being the quiet type, nods.

"Asahi?"

"Uh... well... look, Chris. There's two of them and just three of us. Now if I can convice one of them to join our side and fight his friend, well... I'm in!"

"... Motherfucker! You serious, bro?"

"Hey, Chris, fuck off! All you're going to do is piss off his friends, and where will we be then? No, you dumbass, I need 70% support, if not more, and right now only 60% of us are being threatened. I tell you what: why don't I just leave and let you deal with this problem?"

"Da fuqs the matter with you?"

"Fuck off, Chris! We don't need this shit!"

"What are you going to do? Spend a week and 20,000 words on some message board somewhere defending your cowardice?"

"Fuck you, Chris. I'm outta here."

asahi 06-01-2019 11:35 PM

Fuck you pigT, you ought to be thrown in fucking jail!

TRAITOR!!!!

I don't hate conservatives, I can't fucking stand progressive traitor cowards. You animals can't be educated

JohnT 06-01-2019 11:44 PM

Quote:

He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That’s enough!” he replied.

— Gospel of Luke 22:36-38, NIV
... on the cutting room floor is the subsequent scene....

"Hey, Master, you sure two is enough?"

"Lo, for it is written by my Father."

"I mean... won't fighting them make them madder? Perhaps we should wait for some real calamity before we strike."

"..."

"I mean, Rome has to fall sometime. Continue along this course and, well, it can be bad. For you, for me, for a lot of people. I mean, Augustus still has 40% support! Can't we wait until Rome falls?"

"They will know neither the time nor place...."

"Fuck you, guy! Sure, let's do this! JESUS HATES ROMANS, YOU MOTHERFUCKERS! See? I can fight too!"

In time, Jesus gets nailed to the cross.

"Told ya so! What a moron!"

asahi 06-01-2019 11:46 PM

Let me know what you accomplish dumb shit

JohnT 06-01-2019 11:53 PM

Martin Luther, Ulrich von Hutton, and Asahi are making their way to Worms, to face the Diet:

"Here I stand, I can do no other!"

"Begone you unclean swine! Depart from the sanctuary, you impure traffickers! Touch not the altars with your unclean hands!"

"Wow, the Curia seems really mad. And that letter from the Pope! I just don't know, guys..."

SlackerInc 06-02-2019 01:03 AM

Let's all keep in mind that "the courts" probably won't allow Trump to be impeached anyway. So the point is moot.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight (Post 21675707)
I think it's impossible to tell from the outside whether she doesn't want impeachment, or if she is actually open to it. If she did want to see Trump impeached, then it would still be in the best strategic interest to say she didn't want to, and to wait until the time is right, whereupon she can say her hand has been forced. It is better optics for it to be seen as the Democrats being dragged reluctantly towards impeachment, than for them to be seen to be clamoring for it.


Agreed.

ElvisL1ves 06-02-2019 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlackerInc (Post 21676134)
Let's all keep in mind that "the courts" probably won't allow Trump to be impeached anyway.

Using what instead of constitutional authority?

enipla 06-02-2019 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlackerInc (Post 21676134)
Let's all keep in mind that "the courts" probably won't allow Trump to be impeached anyway. So the point is moot.

Huh?

The 'court' will be the US House. SCOTUS nor any other court doesn't have anything to do with it.

Walken After Midnight 06-02-2019 08:02 AM

Alan Dershowitz thinks that "the judiciary may indeed have a role in reining in Congress were it to exceed its constitutional authority" by impeaching for something that wasn't a "high crime or misdemeanor". However, that wouldn't seem to apply here since obstruction of justice is a "high crime", and Trump has committed obstruction of justice.

enipla 06-02-2019 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight (Post 21676304)
Alan Dershowitz thinks that "the judiciary may indeed have a role in reining in Congress were it to exceed its constitutional authority" by impeaching for something that wasn't a "high crime or misdemeanor". However, that wouldn't seem to apply here since obstruction of justice is a "high crime", and Trump has committed obstruction of justice.

Huh. That would be an interesting test of the constitution. My understanding is it is the congress, and the congress alone that determines what a high crime or misdemeanor is.

JohnT 06-02-2019 08:43 AM

Dershowitz is a Trump toady. Who gives a fuck what he thinks?

asahi 06-02-2019 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 21676067)
... on the cutting room floor is the subsequent scene....

"Hey, Master, you sure two is enough?"

"Lo, for it is written by my Father."

"I mean... won't fighting them make them madder? Perhaps we should wait for some real calamity before we strike."

"..."

"I mean, Rome has to fall sometime. Continue along this course and, well, it can be bad. For you, for me, for a lot of people. I mean, Augustus still has 40% support! Can't we wait until Rome falls?"

"They will know neither the time nor place...."

"Fuck you, guy! Sure, let's do this! JESUS HATES ROMANS, YOU MOTHERFUCKERS! See? I can fight too!"

In time, Jesus gets nailed to the cross.

"Told ya so! What a moron!"

Okay, I admit it: I lol'd

Monty 06-02-2019 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enipla (Post 21676297)
Huh?

The 'court' will be the US House. SCOTUS nor any other court doesn't have anything to do with it.


Actually, the court will be the Senate. The House of Representatives is the outfit that indicts, so to speak. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presides over the Senate for that trial, and that is the judiciary's sole function if the president gets impeached.

enipla 06-02-2019 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monty (Post 21676341)
Actually, the court will be the Senate. The House of Representatives is the outfit that indicts, so to speak. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court presides over the Senate for that trial, and that is the judiciary's sole function if the president gets impeached.

Ah, thanks. I do know that the Senate is the court. Did not realize that the Chief Justice would preside over the proceedings.

SlackerInc 06-02-2019 10:18 AM

Several of you just got whooshed. I thought the scare quotes would be enough of a hint! (My wife does say my humor is sometimes overly dry.)

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/30/186455...ller-confusion

ElvisL1ves 06-02-2019 11:20 AM

Yeah, you were just joking. That's the ticket.

:rolleyes:

RTFirefly 06-02-2019 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21675924)
Okay, then let's impeach Trump right now.

I already believe you're an idiot. You don't have to repeatedly demonstrate it, I'm already convinced.

RTFirefly 06-02-2019 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21675963)
You know what? Fuck it. Impeach now.

Don't wait, do it now.

Right fucking now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21675965)
I want the mother fucker impeached right this god damn minute. Don't wait for investigations becuase that's being a puss. The American people are too stupid to understand that they really want him impeached even though they don't want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21675975)
Hey dipshit, guess what? There are investigations now, you fucking tard.

Impeach the mother fucker now. Why be a fucking coward about it? If you want to impeach before the majority of the country is ready, then GROW A FUCKING NUTSACK AND IMPEACH RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

IF not, shut the fuck up bitch and admit that maybe people like Pelosi have been playing the game of politics since you were pissing in your bedsheets and just shut the fuck up and let them play this out.

Which is it, bitch boy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21675980)
Fuck it.

Impeach now.

Right now.

Call your reps up, and demand impeachment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21675981)
Do it, let's fucking go! Call your local rep and get it on, or shut the fuck up coward.

Which is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21676003)
No fuck you, geniuses.

Fucking impeach right now! You know what? That's what I want. I want you idealistic animals to get all this "Impeach now!" and "Billionaire class rigged the election for Hillary" shit outta your system now. I want you, the voters, to ejaculate, to urinate, to defecate, to get it all out of your mother fucking system now.

If Trump wins, fuck it, more power to him. I don't care. The problem isn't Trump, it's the goddamn fucking morons who vote.

I told you, you've already persuaded me that you're a freakin' idiot. You don't need to go overboard.

Well, you probably do, to satisfy internal needs of your own.

Impressive display of plumage, though.

DrDeth 06-02-2019 04:19 PM

nm

DrDeth 06-02-2019 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21676035)
Impeach now. That's what you fucking imbeciles are saying. Do it now. Don't think, just do it.

Impeachment feels good - just do it.

Don't worry about politics, it just feels good. It's the right thing to do.

So, you were just trolling earlier then?:rolleyes: You dont actually want a meaningless vote in the House?

DrDeth 06-02-2019 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enipla (Post 21676297)
Huh?

The 'court' will be the US House. SCOTUS nor any other court doesn't have anything to do with it.

And then the Senate, where McConnell may not even allow a vote.

RTFirefly 06-02-2019 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 (Post 21676037)
Stipulated. But the argument being advanced by the Pelosi supporters is that that goal is most effectively advanced by allowing the Democratic-controlled HoR to maintain control of the narrative as long as possible, making him look more toxic by the day.

The problem is, they're not controlling any narrative that I can see. Trump himself is a roar, and the assorted House hearings are muted conversation. They're in the news for a few minutes here and there, but that's about it AFAICT.
Quote:

As soon as Articles of impeachment are presented,
Which, if an impeachment inquiry starts today, might be September if we're lucky: there's a lot to be done first.
Quote:

the House has to stop finding and reporting factual toxic items,
Um, no. After articles of impeachment are presented, they get debated in the Judiciary Committee, voted on in the Judiciary Committee, debated in the full House, and voted on in the full House. (Which should probably take us to October or November.) And only then
Quote:

turn the shootin’ match over to the Senate where the impeachment managers will be effectively shut down by McConnell and his gang railroading an acquittal through.
I keep wondering how that's going to work. John Roberts will preside over the impeachment trial, and while he will try and tip the scales in ways that there's a plausible excuse for, he's not going to go along with something so blatant as refuse to let the House impeachment managers make their case for each article passed by the House.

After that, it won't matter much if the House managers are shut down: the rebuttals are still going to be crap, if they don't just skip to a vote. (And that's assuming Mitch doesn't just refuse to have a trial in the Senate, which is what I expect.)
Quote:

It doesn’t seem to me that you have effectively rebutted this argument, even though I have a hazy memory of your having briefly acknowledged that it exists.
Quote:

We did discuss briefly this earlier in this thread, but I'm too lazy to go digging for it right now.
Y’all may insist that the America-hating fuckstick doesn’t really want an impeachment. But he CLEARLY does want the political benefit of an acquittal in front of a populace with the attention span of a goldfish. If Nancy has to give him that in the end, so be it. But the Democratic Party needs to get some 2020 campaign fodder before giving it to him.
Fodder?! There will be weeks of debate in the House, between committee and House floor. The case for each article will be spelled out, with no interference, both in the Judiciary Committee and in the full House. I'd consider that to be considerable benefit.

And then, IF there's a trial, they'll get to make the case for each article on the Senate floor.

Either way, there will be a metric ton of repetition of the case for each article, on network TV, enough repetition that it will sink in to most people's minds. Impeachment won't be a one-day story; it won't be a one-month story. It'll go on and on, like Butter Emails did a few years back.

Trump may want an acquittal vote, but not so badly that he wants impeachment. Trump does great when he's the one who's got the initiative, when he can be the aggressor, but if you remember from his debates with Hillary last year, her standing in the polls went up after each debate, because she was the one throwing the punches.

Impeachment will be better than that, because throughout the House process, Trump won't even be a participant. He will have no control, no means of intervention. The Dems will have total control. It will damage Trump severely in the public mind.

kaylasdad99 06-02-2019 07:28 PM

I’m okay with the impeachment coming at a time that throws the GOP campaign season into maximum disarray.

asahi 06-02-2019 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 (Post 21676037)
As soon as Articles of impeachment are presented, the House has to stop finding and reporting factual toxic items, and turn the shootin’ match over to the Senate where the impeachment managers will be effectively shut down by McConnell and his gang railroading an acquittal through.

No, RTF is right: they don't have to send it to the Senate immediately.

But what the Democrats would have to do is to immediately deal with the fallout of calling it an impeachment, and they'd better be ready -- again, this is a political process we're talking about here, not a legal one. Trump and his defenders would immediately go into attack mode, and they would immediately put pressure on the Democrats, many of whom come from moderate districts and didn't vote for their Dem rep to impeach Trump. The message would be, let's put it to a vote now and be done with it for the good of the country. They'll claim that impeachment is weakening economic conference. They could conceivably blame an economic downturn on impeachment. People would eat it up because after all, they voted for this sonofabitch.

Even if that's not how it turns out, just look at what happened the last time there was an impeachment of a president who was regarded as relatively effective. Did people like Bill Clinton? No, but their conclusion was "He's a creep, but at least he's not fucking up my 401K. Republicans are threatening to remove a president who hasn't fucked up my retirement," which was totally the opposite of Nixon in 1973-74 who was presiding over one of the worst recessions in the 20th Century.

Another problem is that whatever the hell democrats want to make as their core message in 2020 will take a back seat to impeachment. That will be their campaign issue. They will have absolutely nothing else to talk about because that will be the sole issue. People already know that Donald Trump is corrupt as hell -- there's no way they can't know this. What they don't know yet is that he's going to fuck up their country.

SlackerInc 06-02-2019 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves (Post 21676524)
Yeah, you were just joking. That's the ticket.

:rolleyes:


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: back atcha. Your defensive theory of the case, to avoid admitting you were whooshed, is that I actually believed the courts would prevent impeachment from happening. Izzat right? And I just happened to put scare quotes around "the courts" why, exactly? What a coincidence that it was just a couple days after Trump said this same (incredibly asinine) thing! :dubious:

You got whooshed, even when I put the quotes in there specifically to act as training wheels (my first impulse was to be even drier and not use them). Deal with it.

ETA: Please tell me someone got this joke before I had to dissect and thus kill it dead.

Monty 06-02-2019 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 21676860)
And then the Senate, where McConnell may not even allow a vote.


Can any of the actual (as in professional) constitutional scholars weigh in on this. ISTM that the Senate must convene as a court if the House sends the articles of impeachment to the Senate.

jasg 06-02-2019 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monty (Post 21677292)
Can any of the actual (as in professional) constitutional scholars weigh in on this. ISTM that the Senate must convene as a court if the House sends the articles of impeachment to the Senate.

In case no scholars step up, you might find this recent NYMag article interesting.

Quote:

GOP senators say that if the House passes articles of impeachment against President Trump they will quickly quash them in the Senate, where Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) has broad authority to set the parameters of a trial.

While McConnell is required to act on articles of impeachment, which require 67 votes — or a two-thirds majority — to convict the president, he and his Republican colleagues have the power to set the rules and ensure the briefest of trials.
The article goes on to point out that Trent Lott did exactly this for the Clinton impeachment - and the Republican Senate didn't even like Clinton.

RTFirefly 06-03-2019 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21677097)
But what the Democrats would have to do is to immediately deal with the fallout of calling it an impeachment, and they'd better be ready -- again, this is a political process we're talking about here, not a legal one. Trump and his defenders would immediately go into attack mode,

Sure, I can see them, shining a big spotlight on what would normally be the quiet, boring part of the process! Self-own, big time.
Quote:

and they would immediately put pressure on the Democrats, many of whom come from moderate districts and didn't vote for their Dem rep to impeach Trump.
With only a few exceptions, 'moderate' is as bad as it gets for them. And Dems are overwhelmingly in favor of impeachment AND removal.
Quote:

The message would be, let's put it to a vote now and be done with it for the good of the country. They'll claim that impeachment is weakening economic conference. They could conceivably blame an economic downturn on impeachment. People would eat it up because after all, they voted for this sonofabitch.
The people who were still voting GOP in 2018 would. Everybody else will be pointing and laughing at such ridiculous nonsense.
Quote:

Even if that's not how it turns out, just look at what happened the last time there was an impeachment of a president who was regarded as relatively effective. Did people like Bill Clinton? No, but their conclusion was "He's a creep, but at least he's not fucking up my 401K.
And how'd that work out in 2000?

Quote:

Another problem is that whatever the hell democrats want to make as their core message in 2020 will take a back seat to impeachment. That will be their campaign issue. They will have absolutely nothing else to talk about because that will be the sole issue.
How many times have I made the point that that's why the process needs to get started now, so it can finish up by the end of the year?

There, all bolded so you can't miss it.

Best timing: the Dems lay out their case for impeachment, in detail, in the Judiciary Committee right before Thanksgiving, so that over Thanksgiving tables everywhere, all the pro-Trump types are a bit shell-shocked. Not changing sides, of course, but realizing that anything they might say will sound stupid after what's been all over the TV for the previous 2-3 weeks. (Speaking of which, I wonder what Fox News would do while the Judiciary Committee hearings and debates are dominating the airwaves? Can't wait to find out.)

RTFirefly 06-03-2019 07:10 PM

Centrist Rep. Tim Ryan says it's time to move forward with the impeachment process.

If guys like him are on board with this, where exactly is the intra-party resistance coming from?

asahi 06-03-2019 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 21678953)
The people who were still voting GOP in 2018 would. Everybody else will be pointing and laughing at such ridiculous nonsense.

It might seem ridiculous, but Trump is getting relatively high marks for economic performance, and his approval ratings are the highest they've been in over 2 years.

https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...t-in-two-years

Think about that. Yes, more and more democrats are enraged with each new tweet and each new middle finger to the rule of law, but guess what? The rest of the country doesn't seem to care. He's as popular as he's ever been. He needs to be worn down. I want you to think here, man. He's already proven that you could have him admitting to groping women on a live mic and people won't give a piss. In 2019 America, people don't elect politicians to be role models or even law-abiding people; they elect them not to fuck up their lives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 21678953)
And how'd that work out in 2000?

The same way it did in 2016. You had a country (most of which is white and conservative or moderate, by the way) that had 8 years of the progressive party in power and decided they were tired of it and wanted to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 21678953)
Best timing: the Dems lay out their case for impeachment, in detail, in the Judiciary Committee right before Thanksgiving, so that over Thanksgiving tables everywhere, all the pro-Trump types are a bit shell-shocked. Not changing sides, of course, but realizing that anything they might say will sound stupid after what's been all over the TV for the previous 2-3 weeks. (Speaking of which, I wonder what Fox News would do while the Judiciary Committee hearings and debates are dominating the airwaves? Can't wait to find out.)

If I understand your position correctly - feel free to correct me (even harshly if you wish), you think that the president can't be successfully impeached and convicted in the Senate no matter what but that impeachment alone would make him unpopular enough to lose an election. And because the Senate won't remove him under any circumstances, it's best to get this over with.

I have a different hypothesis. Like you, I think that the odds of a successful impeachment are long - way long - but that possibility actually does exist. I think it is possible that Trump could become so toxic that he could be impeached and that the Republicans might scramble to either a) try to run Mike Pence or b) try to come up with a new ticket. Yes, yes, yes...long, long, long odds. But if Trump's popularity actually does crash - and it absolutely could - it will take the GOP by surprise, and they will be like a shocked army fleeing and running into trees and each other in the middle of a night ambush in the forest.

But the only possible way that an actual impeachment can succeed is if the public who voted him into office, who bought into this insane idea that any jackass can run the country, is disabused of that notion, and in very direct, harsh, and personal terms. And if things get to that point, it won't matter when we impeach him. He could be impeached in the middle of August 2020 - he and what's left of his base could cry they're rigging the elections and it would not mean a fucking thing. Impeaching early just to be some arbitrary deadline makes no sense if the public support for the president's performance is strong. Impeaching him even in the middle of October 2020, even on election day 2020, makes all the sense in the world if the public can't stand him. It might not be necessary, but that's not the point.

In the meantime, the investigations continue. The hearings continue. All of this will frustrate Trump but so what? Congress is simply doing ho-hum oversight. The State of New York will force Trump to release his tax records at the state level. Courts will undoubtedly demand that Trump respond to some of the federal requests. He can run, but he can't hide. All of this will chip away at his strength. All of this will undoubtedly force him to do more unhinged shit that only gets him deeper into the political quicksand.

To use a boxing analogy, Democrats don't want to start using up all their energy swinging at the head. They need to box, jab, go to the body. Wait until the eyes get puffy and blood starts trickling down the nose in rounds 6, 7, and 8. Then start going for the head.

asahi 06-03-2019 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 21679031)
Centrist Rep. Tim Ryan says it's time to move forward with the impeachment process.

If guys like him are on board with this, where exactly is the intra-party resistance coming from?

The intra-party resistance isn't necessarily intra-party; it could be inter-party. I'm thinking of someone like Conor Lamb who represents a very centrist district in Western PA and ran on an issues platform, barely mentioning Trump's name at all in the campaign. He's not the only one.

asahi 06-03-2019 07:34 PM

Wait for more of these headlines to come out -- and they will.

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/4...mps-presidency

Quote:

Manufacturing index slumps to lowest level of Trump's presidency
Trump is painting himself into a corner, and he won't be able to escape it. Give it time. That's what I'm saying.

jasg 06-03-2019 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21679059)
Trump is painting himself into a corner, and he won't be able to escape it. Give it time. That's what I'm saying.

You forget. He works in an oval office - no corners...

iiandyiiii 06-03-2019 07:42 PM

If congress starts impeachment, it won't be about the final vote. Hell, there may not even need to be a final vote. It will be about the process - hearings after hearings, with Mueller and Comey and Kushner and more, quote after quote, on TV instead of in the newspaper, etc. I don't know if impeachment helps the Democrats, politically speaking, more than it hurts, but the help will be from the process, not the vote, barring something really weird.

There will be hearings with or without impeachment, of course, but they'd have more attention and more weight if it was for impeachment. Mueller might be more likely to open up as well.

Walken After Midnight 06-03-2019 08:34 PM

Regarding a potential Senate impeachment trial, Republican senators have vowed to quickly quash any impeachment charges. This Lawfare article, from a few months ago, discusses what they could do. A quote from it:
Quote:

The Senate has options for scuttling the impeachment process beyond a simple refusal to heed the House vote. The Constitution does not specify what constitutes a “trial,” and in a 1993 case involving a judicial impeachment, the Supreme Court affirmed that the Senate’s “sole power” to “try” means that it is not subject to any limitations on how it could conduct a proceeding. Senate leadership could engineer an early motion to dismiss and effectively moot the current rule’s call for the president or counsel to appear before the Senate. The rules in place provide at any rate only that “the Senate shall have power to compel the attendance of witnesses”: they do not require that any other than the president be called. Moreover, the Senate could adjourn at any time, terminating the proceedings and declining to take up the House articles. This is what happened in the trial of Andrew Johnson, in which the Senate voted on three articles and then adjourned without holding votes on the remaining eight.

asahi 06-03-2019 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight (Post 21679149)
Regarding a potential Senate impeachment trial, Republican senators have vowed to quickly quash any impeachment charges. This Lawfare article, from a few months ago, discusses what they could do. A quote from it:

Timing is everything.

JohnT 06-03-2019 08:44 PM

If there is anything the last 3 years have taught me, is that the Constitution is probably irretrievably broken. It requires too much faith in the goodness of people and too little responsibility on those same people.

asahi 06-03-2019 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 21679165)
If there is anything the last 3 years have taught me, is that the Constitution is probably irretrievably broken. It requires too much faith in the goodness of people and too little responsibility on those same people.

It wouldn't be the first time the Constitution has been broken, JohnT. What was the Civil War? Was that a Constitution that worked? What was FDR's threat to pack the courts? Was that a Constitution that worked?

The Constitution was written by rich, white, aristocratic men. It's not the Bible. In fact, one of our founding fathers had this to say about constitutions generally:

Quote:

“Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment...But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times.”

JohnT 06-03-2019 09:33 PM

Like I said, it depends too much on the goodness and improvability of men, a true Enlightenment attitude.

JohnT 06-03-2019 09:36 PM

In the year 2040, 16% of the populace will have 84% of the Senate representing them, 84% of the populace will be represented by 16 people.

That's broken. Period. Full stop.

SlackerInc 06-03-2019 10:12 PM

Yeah, that's not good. At the very least, we need to work hard (after Trump is vanquished) to get the Senate up to 104 members, four of whom would come from Puerto Rico and DC.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 21679031)
Centrist Rep. Tim Ryan says it's time to move forward with the impeachment process.

If guys like him are on board with this, where exactly is the intra-party resistance coming from?


From Democrats who are not running for president, which is still the majority even if it sometimes seems otherwise. ;)

asahi 06-03-2019 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 21679236)
In the year 2040, 16% of the populace will have 84% of the Senate representing them, 84% of the populace will be represented by 16 people.

That's broken. Period. Full stop.

You're not wrong, JohnT.

You're not wrong at all.

RTFirefly 06-04-2019 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21679053)
It might seem ridiculous, but Trump is getting relatively high marks for economic performance, and his approval ratings are the highest they've been in over 2 years.

In one outlier poll, by a pollster that 538 assigns a grade of C+ to.

538's rolling average shows a very different story: Today, June 4, he's at 41.7% approval, 53.4% disapproval. IOW, his approval/disapproval is pretty much where it's been for the past 15 months.
Quote:

Think about that.
You might should have taken your own advice before posting this nonsense.


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