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Kable 02-14-2013 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006057)
I suppose I could dodge this by claiming I'm not a psychic, but honestly I think that such a study would be inconclusive, given the incredible small sample size that would necessarily be involved. I also think that people would be safer if they didn't have a handgun on which to attach a silly little flashlight in the first place.

OK, I tend to agree the sample size would be small, and I don't doubt you think people would be better off without handguns. However, given that handguns are used for home defense, conditions for such are sometimes dark, do you think having a light on your gun might at least help to avoid accidents of shooting friends or family members in the dark.

Quote:

Who's this "we" horseshit? Did I mention banning or confiscating anything?
I'm asking because you didn't mention it. Do you think we should ban or confiscate handguns?

Euphonious Polemic 02-14-2013 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16005944)
That would be a good study. How do you think it would turn out?

Sorry, the NRA does not like research into gun deaths.

Those studies reveal things they don't want to know. So.... NO STUDIES!

elucidator 02-14-2013 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16004951)
Here's one just for you elucidator:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0

Absitively posolutely! How come the guy didn't stop shooting when the perps started to flee? Is that "proactive" self-defense? You know, make sure they're shot so that some liberal judge can't turn them loose again?

Did you notice the part where bullets were striking other houses in the neighborhood? But that's cool, right, because "self-defense"? For my two bits, if the perps are fleeing, you aren't in "self-defense" any more, you're into Judge Dredd territory. And if his bullets had actually struck anyone else, he should have been charged with a crime of negligence and bone-head stupid.

You get this video from a NRA approved website? You know, one of those that offer pre-packaged links for you to fling on message boards? Same place you got your news story above?

Got some questions. How was the suspect that was named, how was he identified? From surveillance cameras? And they know that all four were "Hispanic"? From the video cameras? And what were they after? Why this guy, and not his next door neighbor?

And if an innocent neighbor had been injured, would you still be offering this to us as proof positive?

Upon review, one question answered. The viewer is invited: "For more stories of armed self-defense, visit www.gundefense.net" Did you notice the date, by chance? Feb. 14, 2009? Wow, one solid anecdote every four years, you are bound to win!

steronz 02-14-2013 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006098)
OK, I tend to agree the sample size would be small, and I don't doubt you think people would be better off without handguns. However, given that handguns are used for home defense, conditions for such are sometimes dark, do you think having a light on your gun might at least help to avoid accidents of shooting friends or family members in the dark.

I mean, in the same way that people who claim that nitrogen filled tires is a safety feature. Because it keeps the pressures more consistent, see, which makes the car more predictable. In the grand scheme of things, though, it's an insignificant difference.

So I'm going to treat your suggestion of affixing tiny flashlights to handguns to avoid shooting a relative the same way I'd treat someone who says that people should fill their tires with nitrogen to avoid crashing their 911s on wild canyon runs. It's not seeing the forest for the trees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006098)
I'm asking because you didn't mention it. Do you think we should ban or confiscate handguns?

No.

Kable 02-14-2013 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006187)
So I'm going to treat your suggestion of affixing tiny flashlights to handguns to avoid shooting a relative the same way I'd treat someone who says that people should fill their tires with nitrogen to avoid crashing their 911s on wild canyon runs. It's not seeing the forest for the trees.

You say "tiny flashlights" such that you think they might not be effective. Are you aware of the advances in flashlight technology? Those tiny lights put out a lot of lumens.

Quote:

No.
Good to hear. So if banning and confiscation are out, and accidental shootings do happen, maybe it would be good to look for options to lessen them. Like flashlights. Lot's of cops use them, if you didn't know.

Kable 02-14-2013 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16006165)
Upon review, one question answered. The viewer is invited: "For more stories of armed self-defense, visit www.gundefense.net" Did you notice the date, by chance? Feb. 14, 2009? Wow, one solid anecdote every four years, you are bound to win!

Things happen a lot more often then they are caught on film. But I got lots of videos cued up for this thread. I'll keep em coming.

Enderw24 02-14-2013 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16005432)
That sounds made up. Cite for accidental shootings going down like that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=WV6Bq8xeQrU#!

Warning. Video contains a death.

This is a video taken during a 2010 Utah police raid. The victim's name was Todd Blair and the police were executing a no-knock warrant. The warrant was for his ex-roommate who wasn't in the building. The police shot and killed Blair from 20 feet away because he was holding a golf club, which the officer thought to be a sword.

Oh. And there was a light mounted to the officer's firearm so that he could easily distinguish friend from foe.

steronz 02-14-2013 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006214)
Good to hear. So if banning and confiscation are out, and accidental shootings do happen, maybe it would be good to look for options to lessen them. Like flashlights. Lot's of cops use them, if you didn't know.

I mean, that's one option, even though you have no statistics to support it. Or people could just voluntarily get rid of their handguns, which is statistically proven to be effective at increasing one's safety. You don't have to legislate smart behavior, you know?

Lumens. Heh.

elucidator 02-14-2013 12:23 PM

Well, I got one. This is me, sitting in my house. I've no gun. This is me not being invaded or bothered. Except for what may be a disgruntled postal worker. She comes here every day, so I got my eye on her.

Quote:

...I'll keep em coming....
No doubt. Victory through anecdote. Gonna comment on the stray bullets hitting the neighbor's houses, by any chance?

Kable 02-14-2013 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006248)
I mean, that's one option, even though you have no statistics to support it. Or people could just voluntarily get rid of their handguns, which is statistically proven to be effective at increasing one's safety. You don't have to legislate smart behavior, you know?

What statistics are you referring to?

Quote:

Lumens. Heh.
Why is that funny?

elucidator 02-14-2013 12:30 PM

Oh, Kable? About those stray bullets? Any comment to offer?

Fear Itself 02-14-2013 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16006277)
Oh, Kable? About those stray bullets? Any comment to offer?

More guns!

Kable 02-14-2013 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16006251)
Well, I got one. This is me, sitting in my house. I've no gun. This is me not being invaded or bothered. Except for what may be a disgruntled postal worker. She comes here every day, so I got my eye on her.

I'm happy that you are safe in your home today. One night I wasn't but I didn't catch it on camera. One day this lady wasn't either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1-Kz3vU5DY

Quote:

No doubt. Victory through anecdote. Gonna comment on the stray bullets hitting the neighbor's houses, by any chance?
The shooter maybe should practice more. Fortunately in neighborhoods there is a lot more houses to hit than people. Would you prefer if the home owner had just let them kill or kidnap him?

steronz 02-14-2013 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006271)
What statistics are you referring to?

Why is that funny?

Science!

It's funny because I pictured you telling this guy about how many lumens these new flashlights are putting out. You just needed more lumens, man! Then your kid would be alive.

Kable 02-14-2013 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16006277)
Oh, Kable? About those stray bullets? Any comment to offer?

AR15s are more accurate and easier to aim than handguns. How's that?

steronz 02-14-2013 12:44 PM

These people just need more lumens too:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...m-for-burglar/
http://globalgrind.com/news/man-shoo...truder-details
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012...s-an-intruder/

Vinyl Turnip 02-14-2013 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006225)
Things happen a lot more often then they are caught on film. But I got lots of videos cued up for this thread. I'll keep em coming.

Do you have the one with the DEA firearms instructor who shoots himself in the foot moments after boasting that he's the only one in the room qualified to carry that type of gun? Can't get enough of that one.

elucidator 02-14-2013 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006303)
I'm happy that you are safe in your home today. One night I wasn't but I didn't catch it on camera. One day this lady wasn't either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1-Kz3vU5DY


The shooter maybe should practice more. Fortunately in neighborhoods there is a lot more houses to hit than people. Would you prefer if the home owner had just let them kill or kidnap him?

Clearly, those are the only two options! Oh, wait! There's one more! He could have stopped shooting when they began to flee! Forgot that one. So did you, apparently.

And yes, there are a lot of houses in neighborhoods. Usually, there is at least one person in them. Sometimes several. Often, they are children.

Gosh, sure hope the guy had one of those expanded magazines, so he can keep on firing. Wouldn't want him to have to stop shooting, just because the perps are a quarter-mile away.

steronz 02-14-2013 12:51 PM

Responsible gun owner shoots self in hand, realizes that he's safer without the damned thing.

Ca3799 02-14-2013 12:51 PM

I'd like to see gun ownership regulated via background checks, required education, testing, licensing, registration, insurance and documentation of transfer. All of these ideas are related to the purchaser and not the item.

I'd also like to see limits on certain types of rapid fire weapons and on large magazines for rapid fire weapons. For those wanting those unusual types of weapons and/or the larger magazines, I'd like to see all the above requirements, plus extra licensing such as adding a salt-water stamp to a fishing license.

Any or all of these are reasonable.

I'm not interested in watching Kable's videos. That's just argument by anecdote and a weak attempt at emotional appeal.

For every video he posts, someone could post a 'stupid gun mistakes' or 'stupid gun owners' video right off of YouTube. There are plenty of them (and they are incredibly painful to watch- nothing like seeing a 12 year old looking down the barrel to see why his gun won't shoot), but videos, pro or con, are an absolutely, 100%, ridiculous way to attempt to win an argument.

steronz 02-14-2013 12:53 PM

It's never too early to teach your kids about gun safety, right?

Quote:

Dr. Daniel Coury, chief of developmental and behavioral pediatrics at Nationwide Children’s Hospital, testified that toddlers cannot understand how dangerous guns can be, and it is not appropriate to try to teach gun safety to a toddler beyond the simple admonition, “Don’t touch.”
Oh.


eta: Yeah, I'm just ripping these from the Ohh Shoot blog. Deal with it.

Kable 02-14-2013 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006333)

I'll have to read the paper in full and tell you what I think. I know better than to trust the abstract of a review paper.

Quote:

It's funny because I pictured you telling this guy about how many lumens these new flashlights are putting out. You just needed more lumens, man! Then your kid would be alive.
Might not help in that case, but it's not often that your kid is masked and lunging at you with an apparent weapon. You don't think that case is typical of accidental shootings do you?

Kable 02-14-2013 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ca3799 (Post 16006389)
For every video he posts, someone could post a 'stupid gun mistakes' or 'stupid gun owners' video right off of YouTube.

That's what I've been doing to you guys in reverse. Lots of shooters are lax with gun safety. I think gun safety should be taught in public schools along with sex education.

Kable 02-14-2013 01:10 PM

He's responsible?

"Williamson said he didnít touch the gun and did nothing to jar the handgun into firing. He said he has since done research that he said showed the revolver was prone to accidental firings."

That's what you call bullshit.

filmore 02-14-2013 01:15 PM

One thing wrt home defense--it seems the gun gives the owner a false sense of security to go wandering around the house. The common stories are that a sudden noise woke him up, he grabbed his gun, and went to investigate. This seems incredibly risky. He's assuming that he'll have the advantage, but there's no reason to believe that. It seems prudent to assume that there are multiple armed intruders who heard him wake up and are now hunkered down waiting for him to approach. The home owner should approach the situation that way.

There are less dangerous options than a gun for home defense:

-Alarm system with panic button near bed. Prevent intruders from entering in the first place. If you hear a noise, activate the alarm. Very few intruders are going to stick around with an alarm going off.

- Get a dog. A dog is always on active alert for intruders. He'll let you know if someone is trying to get in the house. And he'll give up his life to save you.

If the homeowner wants to protect himself and family, there are ways to do that without introducing a gun and it's associated dangers to the house.

Kable 02-14-2013 01:20 PM

Absolutely! Reading each of your links I have to conclude a weapon mounted flashlight would have prevented all 3 of those accidental shooting.

You don't think so? Have you ever handled a weapon with a Surefire on it?

Ca3799 02-14-2013 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006457)
That's what I've been doing to you guys in reverse. Lots of shooters are lax with gun safety. I think gun safety should be taught in public schools along with sex education.

I guess it works, it anyone bothers to watch your videos. It's still a poor way to make and argument.

I don't think gun safety should be taught in school other than, perhaps, an elective for those interested. Not everybody shoots or owns. Most folks have sex, though.

steronz 02-14-2013 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006517)
Absolutely! Reading each of your links I have to conclude a weapon mounted flashlight would have prevented all 3 of those accidental shooting.

You don't think so? Have you ever handled a weapon with a Surefire on it?

Stupid irresponsible gun owners, not having enough lumens at their disposal. What problem can't be solved by more guns and more lumens?!?

I've never gone shooting in the dark, so no, I've never used a little flashlight.

Kable 02-14-2013 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filmore (Post 16006492)
One thing wrt home defense--it seems the gun gives the owner a false sense of security to go wandering around the house. The common stories are that a sudden noise woke him up, he grabbed his gun, and went to investigate. This seems incredibly risky. He's assuming that he'll have the advantage, but there's no reason to believe that. It seems prudent to assume that there are multiple armed intruders who heard him wake up and are now hunkered down waiting for him to approach. The home owner should approach the situation that way.

I would say if there is an intruder, a gun gives you a good degree of genuine security. In my case the intruder was in my bedroom when I first saw him.

Quote:

There are less dangerous options than a gun for home defense:

-Alarm system with panic button near bed. Prevent intruders from entering in the first place. If you hear a noise, activate the alarm. Very few intruders are going to stick around with an alarm going off.

- Get a dog. A dog is always on active alert for intruders. He'll let you know if someone is trying to get in the house. And he'll give up his life to save you.
An alarm might help, but if it did not scare the intruder the cops would get there to late. In my case they came pretty fast, about 5 minutes after they were called by my girlfriend. I think a dog would be better and likely would deter intruders. Good guard dogs are not without risk to your neighbors either, plus I work too much to properly take care of one, so a gun fit my situation better. Plus guns are lot of fun to shoot.

Kable 02-14-2013 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006553)
Stupid irresponsible gun owners, not having enough lumens at their disposal. What problem can't be solved by more guns and more lumens?!?

Those 3 people would be alive if the shooter had a flashlight on their gun.

Quote:

I've never gone shooting in the dark, so no, I've never used a little flashlight.
OK, I figured you didn't know what you are talking about. Now I'm sure.

filmore 02-14-2013 01:39 PM

Quote:

I would say if there is an intruder, a gun gives you a good degree of genuine security. In my case the intruder was in my bedroom when I first saw him.
If an intruder is in your bedroom, it's hard to argue that anything is better than a gun. But did you have any early warning systems such as an alarm or dog? An alarm or barking dog is likely to chase off just about any intruder. How many burglars would instead stay in the house and try to kill the homeowner once an alarm has been set off?

I'm glad you're okay, but it seems like the intruder could have easily killed you if he was able to get all the way into your bedroom before you noticed him. An intruder has the upper hand since he is aware there may be a homeowner. As long as he can silently enter your bedroom, he can kill you no matter if you have a gun or not. Your gun may be giving you a false sense of security if you are not taking steps to be alerted of an intruder.

steronz 02-14-2013 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006573)
OK, I figured you didn't know what you are talking about. Now I'm sure.

Wow, I had no idea that firing a handgun with a little flashlight attached bestowed so much worldly knowledge upon people. Consider me a dunce! Flashlights and boomsticks for all!

Kable 02-14-2013 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filmore (Post 16006604)
If an intruder is in your bedroom, it's hard to argue that anything is better than a gun. But did you have any early warning systems such as an alarm or dog? An alarm or barking dog is likely to chase off just about any intruder. How many burglars would instead stay in the house and try to kill the homeowner once an alarm has been set off?

In my case I didn't have an alarm or a dog. Until about a week before my invasion I really didn't think I was much of a risk and it was fortunate that I took a gun that used to be unloaded and boxed and kept it loaded beside my bed right before it happened. I did hear the guy coming through my front door, but he was in my bedroom before I could get up.

Quote:

I'm glad you're okay, but it seems like the intruder could have easily killed you if he was able to get all the way into your bedroom before you noticed him. An intruder has the upper hand since he is aware there may be a homeowner. As long as he can silently enter your bedroom, he can kill you no matter if you have a gun or not. Your gun may be giving you a false sense of security if you are not taking steps to be alerted of an intruder.
You are right about that, he easily could have killed me, so I was very lucky to have awakened, and very lucky to have my gun nearby. I'm not at all against the idea of people having alarms or dogs.

Kable 02-14-2013 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006629)
Wow, I had no idea that firing a handgun with a little flashlight attached bestowed so much worldly knowledge upon people. Consider me a dunce! Flashlights and boomsticks for all!

I'm here to help.:)

Vinyl Turnip 02-14-2013 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006472)
He's responsible?

Hey, responsible gun owners are like law-abiding gun owners. All of them are, right up until the moment they're not.

Kable 02-14-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip (Post 16006692)
Hey, responsible gun owners are like law-abiding gun owners. All of them are, right up until the moment they're not.

I think there is a difference between being law abiding and being responsible. I don't think gun owners who break basic safety rules are particularly responsible.

elucidator 02-14-2013 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006457)
That's what I've been doing to you guys in reverse. Lots of shooters are lax with gun safety. I think gun safety should be taught in public schools along with sex education.

On an "abstinence only" basis? Yeah, OK. They aren't listening anyway.

An what of Mr Pastorious, the famous double-amputee who shot his girlfriend? Would a little flashlight on his gun have helped? Most likely, he will be charged and convicted. Doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Euphonious Polemic 02-14-2013 02:13 PM

I"m going to go out on a limb here, and say that you're right.

Kable 02-14-2013 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16006732)
An what of Mr Pastorious, the famous double-amputee who shot his girlfriend? Would a little flashlight on his gun have helped?

I've answered that already.

Damuri Ajashi 02-14-2013 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smapti (Post 16004028)
According to the NRA's latest op-ed...

Wayne la Pierre and company are gun nuts. The NRA's executive board is run by gun nuts, has been for almost 40 years. When you go to the NRA annual meetings, you don't find yourself surrounded by the Joe sixpack NRA member. The gun nuts are overrepresented and THEY are the ones who pick the executive board.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16004075)
I think Wayne can be a bit over the top at times but I just looked up the kidnapping part in Phoenix and it's legit:

The kidnapping statistic is misleading. Most of the people who got kidnapped (criminals and illegal aliens) couldn't legally own guns. But it wasn't obvious from the NRA statement. it doens't do our side any good to twist the truth to try and make our argument. It undermines credibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006057)
I suppose I could dodge this by claiming I'm not a psychic, but honestly I think that such a study would be inconclusive, given the incredible small sample size that would necessarily be involved. I also think that people would be safer if they didn't have a handgun on which to attach a silly little flashlight in the first place.

Using numbers least favorable to my argument, guns are fired (not just brandished, fired) in self defense over 16,000 times a year. Accidental gun death injury is about the same.

At worst, having a gun is a waash and that assumes that every defensinve use of a firearm involves firing the gun in self defense, it also assumes that none of the accidental fischarges were actually intentional (e.g. suicide attempts).

elucidator 02-14-2013 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006749)
I've answered that already.

Say "Goodnight", Gracie.

Enderw24 02-14-2013 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006573)
Those 3 people would be alive if the shooter had a flashlight on their gun.

Would you care to comment on my link then?

Kable 02-14-2013 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enderw24 (Post 16006237)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=WV6Bq8xeQrU#!

Warning. Video contains a death.

This is a video taken during a 2010 Utah police raid. The victim's name was Todd Blair and the police were executing a no-knock warrant. The warrant was for his ex-roommate who wasn't in the building. The police shot and killed Blair from 20 feet away because he was holding a golf club, which the officer thought to be a sword.

Oh. And there was a light mounted to the officer's firearm so that he could easily distinguish friend from foe.

Low light does not seem to have been an issue in that case. I think the cops should have held their fire a bit longer. How about you?

steronz 02-14-2013 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16006813)
Using numbers least favorable to my argument, guns are fired (not just brandished, fired) in self defense over 16,000 times a year. Accidental gun death injury is about the same.

At worst, having a gun is a waash and that assumes that every defensinve use of a firearm involves firing the gun in self defense, it also assumes that none of the accidental fischarges were actually intentional (e.g. suicide attempts).

Suicides + accidental discharge + intentional discharge.

Suicides count because guns make suicides much more likely to be successful. Fewer guns in homes means fewer successful suicides.

Accidental discharge includes true accidents as well as misidentified targets.

Intentional discharge includes shooting a family member or guest in the home.

Those are what you need to take into account. I understand nobody thinks they're going to shoot themselves or a family member, or thinks that a family member is going to shoot them, but that's how the numbers work. Take Population A with guns in the house, compare it to Population B without guns, control for various factors and find out who winds up dead more often. (It's A).

Kable 02-14-2013 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006931)
Suicides count because guns make suicides much more likely to be successful. Fewer guns in homes means fewer successful suicides.

In Australia when guns were banned, more people just hung themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...ralia#Research

Enderw24 02-14-2013 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006882)
Low light does not seem to have been an issue in that case. I think the cops should have held their fire a bit longer. How about you?

Well I'm glad we agree.

But the cops in that video put themselves into that situation, were well trained, had the appropriate number of lumens, and still managed to shoot someone accidently.

Compare that to a homeowner who isn't as well trained as the police and have someone (possibly) breaking into their house in the middle of the night. Your advice is that if they could just increase those lumens a bit, a tragedy could have been avoided.

But it didn't work in the link I submitted, did it? Those lumens didn't do crap to save Todd Blair's life.

steronz 02-14-2013 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006943)
In Australia when guns were banned, more people just hung themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...ralia#Research

One of the references in your own cite disagrees:

Quote:

We find that the buyback led to a drop in the firearm suicide rates of almost 80%, with no significant effect on non-firearm death rates.
Oh, and another one:

Quote:

gun suicides are continuing to decrease in Queensland, most likely as a function of ongoing gun controls, a decrease accompanied by a lesser increase in other methods of suicide, thereby providing little support for substitution theory;

Hentor the Barbarian 02-14-2013 03:11 PM

elucidator, your posts always put a little spring in my step.

Damuri Ajashi 02-14-2013 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006187)
I mean, in the same way that people who claim that nitrogen filled tires is a safety feature. Because it keeps the pressures more consistent, see, which makes the car more predictable. In the grand scheme of things, though, it's an insignificant difference.

So I'm going to treat your suggestion of affixing tiny flashlights to handguns to avoid shooting a relative the same way I'd treat someone who says that people should fill their tires with nitrogen to avoid crashing their 911s on wild canyon runs. It's not seeing the forest for the trees.

Shooting in the dark is a bad idea. I have a flashlight built into the pump on my shotgun (I think the sound of a pump action shotgun is widely recognized as the universal sign for "get the fuck out of my house or tell me who youa re") but I generally like to just turn on the light in a room if I want to see whats in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006333)

I'm familiar with that paper and if you get rid of the impact that suicide has on the equation, your argument falls apart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by filmore (Post 16006492)
One thing wrt home defense--it seems the gun gives the owner a false sense of security to go wandering around the house. The common stories are that a sudden noise woke him up, he grabbed his gun, and went to investigate. This seems incredibly risky. He's assuming that he'll have the advantage, but there's no reason to believe that. It seems prudent to assume that there are multiple armed intruders who heard him wake up and are now hunkered down waiting for him to approach. The home owner should approach the situation that way.

Any home defense class will tell you to hole up and stay in one place and cover the doors if there is an intruder. You are much more likely to see them before they see you. This might mean they get away with your laptop but at least you didn't have to shoot anyone.

BTW, I think dogs are superior to alarm systems and guns are superior to golf clubs in case a barking dog doesn't do the trick.

filmore 02-14-2013 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006943)
In Australia when guns were banned, more people just hung themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...ralia#Research

You'd need to see if the drop in gun suicides were replaced by other methods. If gun suicides went down by 10000 but suicides as a whole didn't go down at all, then you know that all those gun suicides switched to other methods. But if total suicides also go down, then some of those gun suicides were not replaced by other methods.


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