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Fear Itself 02-16-2013 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16012064)
Is there one specific source for your pre-packaged talking points, or are they drawn for a variety of sources?

It's remarkable; when Kable is talking, you can't even see Wayne LaPierre's lips move.

Gyrate 02-16-2013 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16011711)
You can substitute a whole lot of words for "guns" in your sentence still make sense without anyone asking for a ban. Off the top of my head: skateboards, roller blades, bicycles, motorcycles, skis, snowboards, alcohol, power tools, yet none of those can have the potential to save lives the way guns can.

Guns don't save lives. People save lives.

Kable 02-16-2013 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrate (Post 16012572)
Guns don't save lives. People save lives.

I like the way you put that! So guns don't kill either, people do.

Kable 02-16-2013 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16012560)
It's remarkable; when Kable is talking, you can't even see Wayne LaPierre's lips move.

I think this was one of Wayne's best points:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVbDrdCm7AY

Vinyl Turnip 02-16-2013 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16012560)
It's remarkable; when Kable is talking, you can't even see Wayne LaPierre's lips move.

Check the other end.

carnivorousplant 02-16-2013 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip (Post 16012655)
Check the other end.

That's cold, man!
:)

sinjin 02-16-2013 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16011613)
Sorry, Its the combination of fat fingers and the tiny keyboard on my new phone.



Then don't get a gun. Noone is forcing you to get a gun, the choice is yours.



Not all gun owners are responsible. Hang out at a gun store for about an hour and it becomes obvious.

That is why I support a licensing requirement. I had to undergo training and take a test to get my CCW. There has been one firearm crime committed by someone with a CCW since 1976. I would bet that CCWs have fewer accidental/negligent discharges than the gun owning population generally, I couldn't provide a cite but it would be consistent with my anecdotal experience.

That is such an astounding statement (bolding mine) that I would love to see your citation for that factoid. For your edification here is a site that details quite more than 1 crime committed by those with ccw between May 2007 and November 2012: http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

Euphonious Polemic 02-16-2013 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16011613)
That is why I support a licensing requirement.

Then according to many, you are a gun-grabbing lefty, who only supports licensing because that will lead to registration which will lead to confiscation, which will lead to Hitler.

It's time that you (and the rest of the majority gun owners who are reasonable and responsible) take the conversation away from the loons who want to see no gun legislation of any kind, ever.

Euphonious Polemic 02-16-2013 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16011711)
You can substitute a whole lot of words for "guns" in your sentence still make sense without anyone asking for a ban. Off the top of my head: skateboards, roller blades, bicycles, motorcycles, skis, snowboards, alcohol, power tools, yet none of those can have the potential to save lives the way guns can.

Again, you are debating like a junior high school student.

"skateboards, roller blades, bicycles, skis, snowboards" = recreational equipment that does not really have very much potential to kill another person.

"motorcycles" = must have a license, must have registration and insurance, must follow all road rules and must wear a helmet.

"power tools" = this one is just stupid.

"alcohol" = certainly causes damage, especially when combined with vehicles. Are you trying to argue here that since alcohol misuse causes damage, therefore we should not try to mitigate any damage caused by other things (like guns?). So if a murder happens, we might as well not try to enforce any laws at all?

Hentor the Barbarian 02-16-2013 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16013047)
Then according to many, you are a gun-grabbing lefty, who only supports licensing because that will lead to registration which will lead to confiscation, which will lead to Hitler.

Well, Hitler 2.0, of course.
Quote:

It's time that you (and the rest of the majority gun owners who are reasonable and responsible) take the conversation away from the loons who want to see no gun legislation of any kind, ever.
Sure - that's just a divide and conquer strategy. They may be crazy ass gun nuts, but they're his crazy ass gun nuts.

Damuri Ajashi 02-16-2013 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian (Post 16011962)
This is frequently claimed. I was interested then to see the CCWs among this week's gun fails, including theone who brandished her weapon at Chuck E Cheese's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinjin (Post 16013034)
That is such an astounding statement (bolding mine) that I would love to see your citation for that factoid. For your edification here is a site that details quite more than 1 crime committed by those with ccw between May 2007 and November 2012: http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

Ignorance fought. Thanks. I still support a licensing requirement. I think license holders tend to be safer gun owners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16013047)
Then according to many, you are a gun-grabbing lefty, who only supports licensing because that will lead to registration which will lead to confiscation, which will lead to Hitler.

It's time that you (and the rest of the majority gun owners who are reasonable and responsible) take the conversation away from the loons who want to see no gun legislation of any kind, ever.

Umm, I already support a national gun registry. I think confiscation is about as simple to achieve as expelling all the illegal aliens.

The problem with taking the conversation away from the loons is journalists don't want to talk to reasonable people, they want to talk to the guy who has a confederate flag in the shape of a swastika tattooed on their forehead.

I'm an NRA member and I've never been to an annual meeting. The folks that go tend to be more extreme than the average NRA member and they elect folks like La Pierre. Its like the Republican party. They've been taken over by nutjobs because the average Republican can't be bothered to show up at the primaries.

Euphonious Polemic 02-16-2013 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16013761)


Umm, I already support a national gun registry. I think confiscation is about as simple to achieve as expelling all the illegal aliens.

The problem with taking the conversation away from the loons is journalists don't want to talk to reasonable people, they want to talk to the guy who has a confederate flag in the shape of a swastika tattooed on their forehead.

I'm an NRA member and I've never been to an annual meeting. The folks that go tend to be more extreme than the average NRA member and they elect folks like La Pierre. Its like the Republican party. They've been taken over by nutjobs because the average Republican can't be bothered to show up at the primaries.


Please consider being more active. We need people like you.

Kable 02-16-2013 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16013061)
Again, you are debating like a junior high school student.

Only a junior high school student would say that.

Quote:

"skateboards, roller blades, bicycles, skis, snowboards" = recreational equipment that does not really have very much potential to kill another person.
Guns are very often used recreationally. And we just established that guns don't kill people, people kill people, and people with guns often save others.

Quote:

"motorcycles" = must have a license, must have registration and insurance, must follow all road rules and must wear a helmet.
Great, but you don't need a license to ride a skateboard and there certainly are rule on what you can do with guns.

Quote:

"power tools" = this one is just stupid.
What, couldn't think of a come back for that one?

Quote:

"alcohol" = certainly causes damage, especially when combined with vehicles. Are you trying to argue here that since alcohol misuse causes damage, therefore we should not try to mitigate any damage caused by other things (like guns?). So if a murder happens, we might as well not try to enforce any laws at all?
I'm sorry, I didn't know I would have to explain to you that with increased freedoms often comes increased risks. If you want to be free to drink alcohol, you must accept the risk that some people will get hurt because of it. Same with skateboards, cars and bicycles. Of course we could outlaw anything that we think is dangerous but then life wouldn't be as much fun at all.

sinjin 02-16-2013 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16013761)
Ignorance fought. Thanks. I still support a licensing requirement. I think license holders tend to be safer gun owners.

I would still like to see where you got the only "1" crime committed by a person with a CCW since 1976. Please give me a citation for that so I know where you were coming from.

Thanks.

steronz 02-16-2013 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16013805)
And we just established that guns don't kill people, people kill people, and people with guns often save others.

If people couldn't save others with guns they would just switch to knives or hammers.

Fear Itself 02-16-2013 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16014871)
If people couldn't save others with guns they would just switch to knives or hammers.

I haven't LOL'd since 1996, but that broke my streak.

Kable 02-16-2013 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16014871)
If people couldn't save others with guns they would just switch to knives or hammers.

Which is maybe great if you are a young strong man, like a lot of crooks. Certainly not good at all if you are female or elderly, like a lot of victims.

carnivorousplant 02-16-2013 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16014879)
Which is maybe great if you are a young strong man, like a lot of crooks. Certainly not good at all if you are female or elderly, like a lot of victims.

You nailed it.
I'm five feet, 110 pounds, my Wife drove off the muggers, but we expected them to show up and try to eliminate the witness.

Damuri Ajashi 02-16-2013 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16013783)
Please consider being more active. We need people like you.

The annual meeting is in Houston this year, that means taking time off and flying across the country to cast a meaningless vote. What DOESN'T help is when ignorant politicians try to pass laws that restrict our rights without having any beneficial effect for society.

I don't think that the second amendment will protect democracy. If the second amendment ever comes into the picture, we probably don't have any democracy left to protect. But I have seen society collapse, I've seen cops drive right by looters ruining the livelihood of families. There are only so many cops and there is no guarantee that you will be high on their list of people to protect. I saw the difference that guns made that week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinjin (Post 16014854)
I would still like to see where you got the only "1" crime committed by a person with a CCW since 1976. Please give me a citation for that so I know where you were coming from.

Thanks.

I have no idea. In retrospect, the claim sounds ridiculous considering that the Tuscon shooter had CCW. I picked it up somewhere and internalized it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16014895)
You nailed it.
I'm five feet, 110 pounds, my Wife drove off the muggers, but we expected them to show up and try to eliminate the witness.


Ca3799 02-17-2013 07:15 AM

"Four weeks ago, California state Sen. Leland Yee (D) got a death threat “unlike any other” he has ever received. “The author of the email specifically stated that if I did not cease our legislative efforts to stop gun violence that he would assassinate me in or around the Capitol,” Yee said in a statement released Thursday. “He stated that he was a trained sniper and his email detailed certain weapons he possessed.” "

Thankfully, the guy has been arrested. Now will he keep or lose his right to own guns?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/po...,1455641.story

Kable 02-17-2013 08:22 AM

15 year old saves himself and little sister with an AR15:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-q2...d0I_H&index=26

Ca3799 02-17-2013 08:57 AM

Some Valentine's day love for our resident gun nuts. All these were on 2-14-13. there are probably more, but no one collects them all in one place.

Clayton County, Ga. -- A man was shot to death during an argument with a woman inside a residence yesterday. No other information was available.

Cicero, Ill. -- A 17-year-old boy on a street was shot multiple times and pronounced dead at the scene at 7:46 p.m. yesterday.

Ramsey, Minn. -- A 67-year-old woman and her 65-year-old husband were found dead, each with a gunshot wound to the head, apparently the result of a murder-suicide. The couple's daughter had asked police to check on the two after receiving an email from her father saying they were being evicted from their rented house and they planned to kill themselves.

Abbeville, La. -- Two brothers, ages 24 and 25, were shot dead in their home about 8 a.m. Tuesday. A 17-year-old male was later booked on two counts of first-degree murder.

Clayton Township, Mich. -- A 17-year-old boy was shot and killed by his 64-year-old father when the boy began punching and shoving his mother and sister about 1:15 p.m. Sunday. The boy and his mother had been arguing before the incident escalated. Hearing the fight, the father came out of his bedroom with a handgun and shot his son once in the abdomen. Police have had previous contact with the teen because of his behavior.

Cleveland, Ohio -- A 45-year-old woman was shot in the chest and killed about 10:40 p.m. yesterday after she got caught in a crossfire when two men started shooting at each other in a parking lot near her home. Her birthday was Tuesday. She leaves behind five children, ranging in age from 7 to 25.

Oakland, Calif. -- A man was shot to death inside an apartment about 2:30 p.m. yesterday. Witnesses saw two men run from the scene after the shooting.

San Leandro, Calif. -- A man in his late teens was found shot at an elementary school campus around 8:45 p.m. yesterday. He died a short time later at a local hospital. Police think the shooting might have been related to a dice game.

Council Bluffs, Iowa -- A 22-year-old woman and her 19-month-old son were shot and wounded outside their apartment about 5:40 a.m. Tuesday by a 30-year-old man. The woman was struck eight times; the boy was hit in his arm. Police say they know the motive but have not yet released it. The man has been arrested.

Chesterfield County, S.C. -- A 56-year-old man got out of his truck in the parking lot of a county courthouse and sprayed a 21-year-old woman’s car with gunfire. The woman was going to the court to try and prove that he is the father of her 6-month child and to discuss child support. She was hit in the face, chest, and stomach. Her step-father was stuck once. Both are in stable condition.

Albuquerque, N.M. -- Around 6:30 p.m. on Tuesday, two men showed up at a hospital within a short time of each other with gunshot wounds. That was about an hour after police responded to reports of gunshots fired on a street but found nothing but shell casings and some blood. Police are investigating.

Elizabeth, N.J. -- A 34-year-old man was found shot in the neck and chest and lying on a driveway around 5:40 p.m. yesterday. He was listed in stable condition.

Elizabeth, N.J. -- A man walking on a street about 6:45 p.m. yesterday heard two gunshots and then realized he had been shot in the side. He was in stable condition.

Detroit, Mich. -- Two brothers, ages 16 and 17, shot and wounded by a utility worker they robbed about 9 p.m. on February 7, were charged on Tuesday with armed robbery. The worker -- a 59-year-old male with a license to carry a concealed pistol -- was working on a light pole with a 59-year-old male colleague when the armed teens threatened and robbed the two workers. At some point, the worker managed to shoot the assailants.

Chicago, Ill. -- A man in his mid-20s was shot and wounded during a street-robbery about 2:30 p.m. yesterday. The victim was listed in serious-to-critical condition.

Chicago, Ill. -- Two boys, ages 15 and 16, were shot and wounded as they walked on a sidewalk about 4:45 p.m. yesterday. A friend with the victims at the time said someone came out of an alley and fired four or five shots at them. Both victims were reported as stabilized.

Kendall, Fla. -- A 13-year-old boy was shot at his home around 5 p.m. yesterday. Police responding to reports of shots-fired found three juveniles and one adult inside the home. The victim was listed in critical condition. No arrests have been made. An investigation is underway.

Hendersonville, Tenn. -- A 29-year-old man shot and wounded his 26-year-old wife at a residence about 10 p.m. yesterday. He was charged with aggravated assault although the call came into police as an accidental shooting. Two children at home at the time of the incident were unharmed. No report on the woman’s condition.

Houston, Tex. -- A woman leaving a gym was robbed and shot in the parking lot about 9 p.m. yesterday. A car pulled up to her as she walked to her vehicle and an armed man snatched her purse and shot her. She was listed in stable condition with a punctured lung.

Philadelphia, Penn. -- Earlier this week, a 7-year-old first-grade boy at an elementary school brought a loaded .357 magnum revolver into the cafeteria before school and showed it to some friends. The school police officer took the gun from the boy. A 32-year-old woman, who is not related to the boy, has been arrested in connection with the incident.

Westminster, Colo. -- Two men were having heated words in front of a big-box discount department store when one of the men -- 33-years old -- displayed a holstered gun. The 33-year-old had been talking loudly a cell phone and using profanity when the other man passed by and objected to his behavior. Upon seeing the gun, the passer by immediately tackled the armed man, who was knocked unconscious when his head hit the ground. The armed man was jailed on charges of felony menacing, unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon and reckless endangerment.

Euphonious Polemic 02-17-2013 09:11 AM

I'm sure someone can come up with an equivalent list of lots of people who were saved by guns on that same day.

Right?

UltraVires 02-17-2013 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16013761)
I still support a licensing requirement. I think license holders tend to be safer gun owners.


*snip
Umm, I already support a national gun registry.


I'm curious as to what problem we have that you feel would be solved by a National Gun Registry. You don't want to outlaw guns, and you are an NRA member, but support registration. My question is why?

1) If Mrs. Lanza had registered her guns, Newtown would still have happened. So would VA Tech, Columbine, and all other mass shootings that we've had.

2) If people go off the deep end and want to murder, rape, or steal, they will do it with their previously registered guns.

3) Criminals, who by definition don't obey the law, won't register their guns.

I would consider registration (if we could trust that the infringements would stop there) as something I could live with if I saw a legitimate need for the cost and the hassle of doing it. I don't see that.

carnivorousplant 02-17-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ca3799 (Post 16015598)
Ramsey, Minn. -- A 67-year-old woman and her 65-year-old husband were found dead, each with a gunshot wound to the head, apparently the result of a murder-suicide. The couple's daughter had asked police to check on the two after receiving an email from her father saying they were being evicted from their rented house and they planned to kill themselves.

Did they get the deposit back?

filmore 02-17-2013 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtgain (Post 16015721)
3) Criminals, who by definition don't obey the law, won't register their guns.

True, they won't register their guns. But if we require both the seller and buyer to record the transaction, there would be clear evidence of the illegal transaction. If the seller sends in his transfer form but the buyer doesn't, the registry would instantly know that and could flag it as needing investigation.

Registration wouldn't eliminate gun murders. But if done right, it could hinder gun access by criminals without overburdening legal owners.

I agree with your points #1&2. Registration doesn't do anything for those. Rooms full of dead children are the price we pay for arming every moron who feels they will need to fight against a tyrannical government. However, that doesn't mean we can't reduce other illegal use of guns.

YogSothoth 02-17-2013 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtgain (Post 16015721)
3) Criminals, who by definition don't obey the law, won't register their guns.

Yeah, I think we need to get rid of those pesky murder laws too. And rape. So many times I have a legitimate need to rape someone but since I'm following the law, only the criminals get to do it. What's a law-abiding citizen to do? :(

UltraVires 02-17-2013 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filmore (Post 16015899)
True, they won't register their guns. But if we require both the seller and buyer to record the transaction, there would be clear evidence of the illegal transaction. If the seller sends in his transfer form but the buyer doesn't, the registry would instantly know that and could flag it as needing investigation.

That could be accomplished by universal background checks. (Not that I support it, but we could do what you propose without a full gun registry).

Quote:

Originally Posted by YogSosoth (Post 16015968)
Yeah, I think we need to get rid of those pesky murder laws too. And rape. So many times I have a legitimate need to rape someone but since I'm following the law, only the criminals get to do it. What's a law-abiding citizen to do? :(

I've never understood this argument. We pass laws against murder and rape because we believe that NOBODY should commit murder or rape. Me, you, or any poster here. And if one of us does, we get punished. Life in prison or a lethal injection is a deterrent for many people who might otherwise kill someone.

We want to pass laws for registering guns so that when the minuscule portion of the population commits a crime with a gun, we can trace that gun back to the registered owner. We all understand that grandpa with his shotgun isn't going to be a problem and it's an extra hassle for him, but we agree for the greater good to make everyone register.

However, the practical effect of the law is that grandpa registers his shotgun, but the criminals do not. So the "good things" the law is supposed to do never happens. We have a new bureaucracy to keep track of how many guns and the serial numbers that I own, but when a drug dealer buys one off of a plane from Colombia, we don't have a list of his guns.

But unlike the rape and murder laws, violating a gun registration law, when the criminal is already going to violate laws that could get him the death penalty or life in prison, is no impediment at all. THAT is the difference between registration and rape/murder laws.

Fear Itself 02-17-2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtgain (Post 16016147)
We want to pass laws for registering guns so that when the minuscule portion of the population commits a crime with a gun, we can trace that gun back to the registered owner.

Pssst. That's not the only reason we register guns.

filmore 02-17-2013 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtgain (Post 16016147)
That could be accomplished by universal background checks. (Not that I support it, but we could do what you propose without a full gun registry).

I'm not following how this would help if you didn't have the registry. If grandpa can sell his gun to a guy in a Target parking lot, what system is in place to ensure that the buyer is allowed to buy it? You can't just count on grandpa insisting on a background check.

If there is a registry where grandpa has to declare that he sold his gun to Joe, and Joe has to register that he bought the gun, then the system can enforce the background checks. If grandpa sends in his form but Joe doesn't, then Joe has committed a crime. Without the permanent registry, there is no way to enforce background checks for private purchases.

Hentor the Barbarian 02-17-2013 02:49 PM

I asked this maybe a dozen times in other threads and never got an answer. jtgain, maybe you can help. We all agree that criminals and mentally ill people shouldn't have guns. We also know that people enter into those classes in a fashion that is not structured. That is, it is possible that at any particular point in time, someone might experience a mental break, or engage in criminal acts.

So, when a person does so, we might be able to prevent them from obtaining a firearm. But without registration, how can we know whether or not they already have one?

Happy Fun Ball 02-17-2013 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ca3799 (Post 16015598)
Some Valentine's day love for our resident gun nuts. All these were on 2-14-13. there are probably more, but no one collects them all in one place.

Well, Kable has not been around to answer this post, but I for one don't know what this list is supposed to prove.

Quote:

Clayton County, Ga. -- A man was shot to death during an argument with a woman inside a residence yesterday. No other information was available.
Self defense. Shows the system works.

Quote:

Cicero, Ill. -- A 17-year-old boy on a street was shot multiple times and pronounced dead at the scene at 7:46 p.m. yesterday.
Clearly a hunting accident.

Quote:

Ramsey, Minn. -- A 67-year-old woman and her 65-year-old husband were found dead, each with a gunshot wound to the head, apparently the result of a murder-suicide. The couple's daughter had asked police to check on the two after receiving an email from her father saying they were being evicted from their rented house and they planned to kill themselves.
Regretful, but they probably would have stabbed themselves to death if they didn't have a gun. Death with dignity.

Quote:

Clayton Township, Mich. -- A 17-year-old boy was shot and killed by his 64-year-old father when the boy began punching and shoving his mother and sister about 1:15 p.m. Sunday. The boy and his mother had been arguing before the incident escalated. Hearing the fight, the father came out of his bedroom with a handgun and shot his son once in the abdomen. Police have had previous contact with the teen because of his behavior.
This hero saved the life of hundreds of people and saved the state thousands of dollars being the the prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner in this case. It's called responsibility people, this hero was responsible for his own actions (those of the last 17 years). A true patriot.

Quote:

Oakland, Calif. -- A man was shot to death inside an apartment about 2:30 p.m. yesterday. Witnesses saw two men run from the scene after the shooting.
Clearly a hunting accident.

Quote:

Council Bluffs, Iowa -- A 22-year-old woman and her 19-month-old son were shot and wounded outside their apartment about 5:40 a.m. Tuesday by a 30-year-old man. The woman was struck eight times; the boy was hit in his arm. Police say they know the motive but have not yet released it. The man has been arrested.
Hunting accident. Babies can look a lot like a water fowl in pre-dawn light. I almost made this mistake myself once.

Quote:

Chesterfield County, S.C. -- A 56-year-old man got out of his truck in the parking lot of a county courthouse and sprayed a 21-year-old woman’s car with gunfire. The woman was going to the court to try and prove that he is the father of her 6-month child and to discuss child support. She was hit in the face, chest, and stomach. Her step-father was stuck once. Both are in stable condition.
Clearly a misfired weapon. I once put a hole in the side of my house while cleaning one of my guns (I forgot to take the round out of the chamber), this sounds like something similar. I am sure the patriot learned a lesson and will be more careful in the future.

Quote:

Detroit, Mich. -- Two brothers, ages 16 and 17, shot and wounded by a utility worker they robbed about 9 p.m. on February 7, were charged on Tuesday with armed robbery. The worker -- a 59-year-old male with a license to carry a concealed pistol -- was working on a light pole with a 59-year-old male colleague when the armed teens threatened and robbed the two workers. At some point, the worker managed to shoot the assailants.
Shows the system works.

Quote:

Chicago, Ill. -- A man in his mid-20s was shot and wounded during a street-robbery about 2:30 p.m. yesterday. The victim was listed in serious-to-critical condition.
Show's the system works, obviously the robber was shot in self-defense.

Quote:

Houston, Tex. -- A woman leaving a gym was robbed and shot in the parking lot about 9 p.m. yesterday. A car pulled up to her as she walked to her vehicle and an armed man snatched her purse and shot her. She was listed in stable condition with a punctured lung.
Hunting accident.

Quote:

Philadelphia, Penn. -- Earlier this week, a 7-year-old first-grade boy at an elementary school brought a loaded .357 magnum revolver into the cafeteria before school and showed it to some friends. The school police officer took the gun from the boy. A 32-year-old woman, who is not related to the boy, has been arrested in connection with the incident.
What? This boy was just exercising his constitutional rights and the jack booted liberal school administrators are trying to curtail them.

Quote:

Westminster, Colo. -- Two men were having heated words in front of a big-box discount department store when one of the men -- 33-years old -- displayed a holstered gun. The 33-year-old had been talking loudly a cell phone and using profanity when the other man passed by and objected to his behavior. Upon seeing the gun, the passer by immediately tackled the armed man, who was knocked unconscious when his head hit the ground. The armed man was jailed on charges of felony menacing, unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon and reckless endangerment.
Finally, here is a criminal who illegally had a gun (probably stolen from a patriot) that was unable to use his gun in the commission of a crime due to the bravery of a law abiding citizen who left his gun at home. If everyone around had been armed, it would have probably been unnecessary for this gentleman to tackle the criminal...

For those of us keeping score, it is clear which side of the argument is winning.:rolleyes:

UltraVires 02-17-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filmore (Post 16016240)
I'm not following how this would help if you didn't have the registry. If grandpa can sell his gun to a guy in a Target parking lot, what system is in place to ensure that the buyer is allowed to buy it? You can't just count on grandpa insisting on a background check.

If we can't trust grandpa to do the background check, how can we trust him to send in the transfer form?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian (Post 16016440)
I asked this maybe a dozen times in other threads and never got an answer. jtgain, maybe you can help. We all agree that criminals and mentally ill people shouldn't have guns. We also know that people enter into those classes in a fashion that is not structured. That is, it is possible that at any particular point in time, someone might experience a mental break, or engage in criminal acts.

So, when a person does so, we might be able to prevent them from obtaining a firearm. But without registration, how can we know whether or not they already have one?

It's a good question that has given me pause. If I understand it, take a gun owner like myself who obeys the law and is (reasonably) sane. I own 4 guns (for example).

Now, for whatever reason I go off my nut or my finances, morals, family life, or whatever degrades and I start committing crimes or doing things that would make people question my sanity. Your proposal would allow the authorities to instantly say: "Well, jtgain owns 4 guns with serial numbers XXX, YYY, ZZZ, and QQQ, with these makes, models and calibers. Let's be on the lookout for him." Under the current system, they don't know if I own zero guns or five hundred guns.

It's a fair question, and let me think on it. My initial reaction is to oppose it on the grounds that I shouldn't be held responsible for what I might do. But I'm not a gun nut reactionary, so lemme digest it for a bit...

filmore 02-17-2013 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtgain (Post 16016618)
If we can't trust grandpa to do the background check, how can we trust him to send in the transfer form?

It's not a matter of trust. It would be a crime not to. By requiring both parties to send in the transfer form, it is immediately evident if one party doesn't. If grandpa doesn't send in the form but Joe does, grandpa gets a call from the authorities.

If neither party sends in the form, then the registry doesn't know about the transfer. However, the last registered owner is risking big fines if the gun later shows up under a different owner--either from a crime or a new transfer. Grandpa is not going to want to risk that and will likely register that he transferred the gun. Even if the criminal he sold it to doesn't register, at least the authorities know precisely when and how the gun got into the criminal system.

This is sometimes done with car sales. When the current owner sells the car, they can send in a form to the state indicating they no longer own it. This way if the new owner doesn't register and it shows up in a crime, they have documented that they sold it to someone else.

filmore 02-17-2013 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtgain (Post 16016618)
Now, for whatever reason I go off my nut or my finances, morals, family life, or whatever degrades and I start committing crimes or doing things that would make people question my sanity. Your proposal would allow the authorities to instantly say: "Well, jtgain owns 4 guns with serial numbers XXX, YYY, ZZZ, and QQQ, with these makes, models and calibers. Let's be on the lookout for him." Under the current system, they don't know if I own zero guns or five hundred guns.

A registration database wouldn't make you a suspect in this case. But once you are convicted of a felony, it would be used to take your guns away. Today, if you acquired your guns from private sale, there is no record of you owning any guns. There is no way for the authorities to know that you should have your existing guns removed after you are convicted. But with a registration database that includes private sales, the authorities would know that you have X guns and can make sure they are confiscated.

It would also help when they came to arrest you. They would have an idea of what sort of arsenal you have and would be able to plan accordingly.

Kable 02-17-2013 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16015627)
I'm sure someone can come up with an equivalent list of lots of people who were saved by guns on that same day.

Right?

Obviously if defensive gun use always made the news you could swamp those numbers. Taking even the lowest of the low estimates of 55,000 DGU per year....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensi...s_of_frequency

...divided by 365 leads to would lead to over 150 crimes thwarted per day. Please check my math Euphonious, I don't want to make a mistake.

Also, I was at a USPSA shooting match and there were over 100 shooters shooting over 100 rounds each, mostly out of semi-auto handguns. Not one injury or incident and everyone had a lot of fun.

Kable 02-17-2013 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16016191)
Pssst. That's not the only reason we register guns.

Right. Gun-grabbers want to know exactly who has what when they come to confiscate them later down the road.

Kable 02-17-2013 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L. G. Butts, Ph.D. (Post 16016598)
For those of us keeping score, it is clear which side of the argument is winning.

How nice of you to say.:)

Ethilrist 02-17-2013 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16017280)
Obviously if defensive gun use always made the news you could swamp those numbers. Taking even the lowest of the low estimates of 55,000 DGU per year....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensi...s_of_frequency

...divided by 365 leads to would lead to over 150 crimes thwarted per day. Please check my math Euphonious, I don't want to make a mistake.

You know, from your link there, it says
Quote:

Different authors and studies employ different criteria for what constitutes a defensive gun use, which at times leads to controversy in comparing statistical results.
Have fun with that math.

Kable 02-17-2013 08:09 PM

That's why I bent over backwards for the gun-grabbers and used the lowest estimate for DGU. So I realize the real number may be a lot higher. Based on the lowest number I used, was my math correct?

sinjin 02-17-2013 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16015088)
I have no idea. In retrospect, the claim sounds ridiculous considering that the Tuscon shooter had CCW. I picked it up somewhere and internalized it.

OK, I know where you are coming from now and will take that into consideration when I see posts from you in the future.

Ethilrist 02-17-2013 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16017314)
That's why I bent over backwards for the gun-grabbers and used the lowest estimate for DGU. So I realize the real number may be a lot higher. Based on the lowest number I used, was my math correct?

Is that survey one of the ones that defines a DGU as locking your bedroom door when you hear somebody breaking in in the middle of the night, yelling "Get out of here, I have a gun", then waiting for the bad guys to rob you and leave? If so, I think 55,000 may be a bit high.

Fear Itself 02-17-2013 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16017285)
Right. Gun-grabbers want to know exactly who has what when they come to confiscate them later down the road.

We can just seize the membership records of the NRA for a good start.

carnivorousplant 02-17-2013 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16017384)
We can just seize the membership records of the NRA for a good start.

I duuno; I wouldn't want to be the guy to go take them away.
I guess I could arrive in a tank, but I'd have to get out to do the actual confiscation.
:)

Fear Itself 02-17-2013 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16017413)
I duuno; I wouldn't want to be the guy to go take them away.
I guess I could arrive in a tank, but I'd have to get out to do the actual confiscation.
:)

One word: Stuxnet

carnivorousplant 02-17-2013 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16017424)
One word: Stuxnet

You lost me, there.

Fear Itself 02-17-2013 09:13 PM

Stuxnet
Quote:

Stuxnet is a computer worm discovered in June 2010 that is believed to have been created by the United States and Israel to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

carnivorousplant 02-17-2013 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16017481)

Yes, but what does it have to do with confiscation and/or tanks?

Fear Itself 02-17-2013 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16017503)
Yes, but what does it have to do with confiscation and/or tanks?

The NRA membership files are stored on a computer. Computers can be compromised by governments, as demonstrated by Stuxnet. As for the tanks, I will leave you to explain them.

Euphonious Polemic 02-17-2013 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethilrist (Post 16017383)
Is that survey one of the ones that defines a DGU as locking your bedroom door when you hear somebody breaking in in the middle of the night, yelling "Get out of here, I have a gun", then waiting for the bad guys to rob you and leave? If so, I think 55,000 may be a bit high.

Or is it one of the ones that counts DGU as "I saw a guy and he was prolly gonna do a crime, but I flashed mah gun at him and he runned away."

Or counts the stories that folks mail in to gun lovers digest that read like Penthouse Forum letters: "Dear Gun Lovers Digest: i never thought this would happen to me, but one day I was out minding my own business, with my trusty gun, and..."


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