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-   -   Buddhism feels like a chain for me (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=875446)

Machinaforce 05-12-2019 08:37 PM

Buddhism feels like a chain for me
 
I don't know, but it's just that the religion when I read it and the text and articles based on it just feels like a chain around my being.

Too much of it I don't understand: no self, the material world is an illusion, emptiness, no reference point being truly alone. All it does is just make my head hurt. I know that there is a tendency to not always be literal in it, but that just makes it worse.

Coupled with the thought or belief I have that Buddhism is the "right" answer and anything else is wrong and therefor if I do anything against what it says then I'm wrong and inferior and choose suffering and lies.

It makes me feel guilty for alot of things, mostly just living life. So it's like every thing I do in my life is against what it teaches. I'm not following out of genuine interest either, I'm just terrified of being wrong and living a lie.

Johanna 05-12-2019 08:51 PM

Everything you've ever posted reminds me of the title of a book by Doris Lessing: Prisons We Choose to Live Inside.

Machinaforce 05-12-2019 09:18 PM

It's just that when I read stuff like:

"The word that we translate as perfection, paramita, means to go beyond. The sixth paramita, the Paramita of Wisdom, which is said to pervade the other five, specifically means the wisdom that understands the emptiness of all dharmas—that this materialistic world is an illusion and that everything is just a point of connection that rises and falls away in the same moment. That insight gives us a love for everything that arises in every moment, and it’s the way that we practice all the paramitas. They are perfections that take into account the normal virtues, but they go beyond them to a more imaginative, more open, more expansive sense of what those things are."

I don't know what to do. It's not like I want to live like this, I wish I could just let Buddhism go. I don't hold anything against those who do, but for me it has done anything but help.

Darren Garrison 05-12-2019 09:51 PM

Maybe you could try distracting yourself with Hinduism or Zoroastrianism or Shinto or Yezidi or Falun Gong?

Beckdawrek 05-12-2019 09:56 PM

I've always thought if it hurts, don't do it. The point of religion, in my mind, is for it to comfort and soothe, other than that it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

Machinaforce 05-12-2019 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21638762)
Maybe you could try distracting yourself with Hinduism or Zoroastrianism or Shinto or Yezidi or Falun Gong?

I'd rather nothing think about anything metaphysical or religious really. I was born into it, but was better off without it.

But it's hard to just forget about what I have read. Including them saying that materialism is dated or wrong.

Voyager 05-13-2019 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21638835)
I'd rather nothing think about anything metaphysical or religious really. I was born into it, but was better off without it.

But it's hard to just forget about what I have read. Including them saying that materialism is dated or wrong.

You should read some fiction, especially fantasy, which might help you figure out that much of what you read is wrong.
Do they offer evidence that would make their claims about all this stuff convincing? Nope, didn't think so. So you can forget about it.
And if you ever start thinking materialism is incorrect, kick a rock. That will remind you.

Musicat 05-13-2019 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21638689)
"The word that we translate as perfection, paramita, means to go beyond. The sixth paramita, the Paramita of Wisdom, which is said to pervade the other five, specifically means the wisdom that understands the emptiness of all dharmas—that this materialistic world is an illusion and that everything is just a point of connection that rises and falls away in the same moment. That insight gives us a love for everything that arises in every moment, and it’s the way that we practice all the paramitas. They are perfections that take into account the normal virtues, but they go beyond them to a more imaginative, more open, more expansive sense of what those things are."

Welcome to psychobabble.

It should be easy to let that go; it is meaningless.

Nava 05-13-2019 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21638835)
I'd rather nothing think about anything metaphysical or religious really. I was born into it, but was better off without it.

But it's hard to just forget about what I have read. Including them saying that materialism is dated or wrong.

There is a big difference between "materialism" as in "the pursuit of having a bigger TV than the Joneses" and as in "the belief that only what's directly perceivable by your senses exists". Both of them are wrong, but in different ways. Denying the existence and worth of any and all material things is also wrong: the opposite of something which happens to be wrong isn't necessarily going to be right.

The Other Waldo Pepper 05-13-2019 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21638636)
I don't know, but it's just that the religion when I read it and the text and articles based on it just feels like a chain around my being.

Too much of it I don't understand: no self, the material world is an illusion, emptiness, no reference point being truly alone. All it does is just make my head hurt. I know that there is a tendency to not always be literal in it, but that just makes it worse.

Coupled with the thought or belief I have that Buddhism is the "right" answer and anything else is wrong and therefor if I do anything against what it says then I'm wrong and inferior and choose suffering and lies.

It makes me feel guilty for alot of things, mostly just living life. So it's like every thing I do in my life is against what it teaches. I'm not following out of genuine interest either, I'm just terrified of being wrong and living a lie.

Spell this out for me. Say you decide you’re done with “make my head hurt” stuff, and so you wind up, uh, “living a lie”: years go by, where you’re doing — what, exactly? What, do you think, would that look like? I don’t know what you have in mind; briefly outline how you figure a life spent that way could play out.

And maybe do both a worst-case scenario and a best-case one, to really clarify just what you think could be in store for you?

MrDibble 05-13-2019 06:11 AM

Make up your mind - is it a chain, or is it nihilism? Are you still alone and miserable and cursed? I take it you have still to read Dennett...

This thread is because Asimovian quit, isn't it?

kanicbird 05-13-2019 06:29 AM

I am most familiar with Il Won buddhism and read and studied their holy scripture book. While it does touch on what you are saying, it is not the main thrust of the teachings, it is more of a conclusion of the practice. So not something to jump to, but someing taht evolved within.

The teachings have to do with universal principals, called Darma. All religions evolve around those principals (some better, some worse), but can never be exactly on it due to distractions of this world interfering with our perceptions. But in the end, the study will have one realize that the religion is not needed, as it is not the Darma, but it helps some get there to the Darma. So that is your head hurting problem, you have to cast off religion, and be ready for that, to get to the point where those things come into realization, but you are still inside the religion trying to realize that from inside the religion, can't be done.

The path is the path to enlightenment, when one realized those universal principals in their pure form, what things are etc. This is when those existing/nonexisting, all is nothing, etc. things come in. But that is for a very dedicated soul, many stop when they get to the inner peace level. Some chose to go on and get to enlightenment, and a rare few after achieving it make a vow to keep comming back till the world is free from suffering.

DrFidelius 05-13-2019 06:31 AM

You will never change from reading, you must change by doing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk

Staggerlee 05-13-2019 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21638689)
It's just that when I read stuff like:

".....that this materialistic world is an illusion and that everything is just a point of connection that rises and falls away in the same moment....."

I don't know what to do. It's not like I want to live like this, I wish I could just let Buddhism go. I don't hold anything against those who do, but for me it has done anything but help.

Maybe this is your problem - I think a bit more scorn, sarcasm and anger for having your time wasted is in order. Teachings like this may sound profound, have some internal consistency and even a sliver of real-life truth to them.

But it might be easier if you think of them as at best impractical; at worst, the pretentious, bourgeois wafflings of the terminally self-satisfied. In the best tradition of Western secularism, you can take the bits you want from Buddhism and discard the rest without fear of unbalancing the cosmic equilibrium.

shunpiker 05-13-2019 08:04 AM

But the Buddha promoted the "middle path". He wasn't saying that we practitioners HAD to actually accomplish all the greatness that he taught. The Buddha presented us with both ends of the yardstick. On the high end is the ultimate achievement of attaining buddhahood and nirvana. On the low end are the rebirths such as hungry ghosts or the animal realm. If you recall... the most desirable level is the human level.

Takeaway... work towards the middle path, grasshopper. :)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kanicbird (Post 21639117)
I am most familiar with Il Won buddhism and read and studied their holy scripture book. While it does touch on what you are saying, it is not the main thrust of the teachings, it is more of a conclusion of the practice. So not something to jump to, but something taht evolved within.

The teachings have to do with universal principals, called Darma. All religions evolve around those principals (some better, some worse), but can never be exactly on it due to distractions of this world interfering with our perceptions. But in the end, the study will have one realize that the religion is not needed, as it is not the Darma, but it helps some get there to the Darma. So that is your head hurting problem, you have to cast off religion, and be ready for that, to get to the point where those things come into realization, but you are still inside the religion trying to realize that from inside the religion, can't be done.

The path is the path to enlightenment, when one realized those universal principals in their pure form, what things are etc. This is when those existing/nonexisting, all is nothing, etc. things come in. But that is for a very dedicated soul, many stop when they get to the inner peace level. Some chose to go on and get to enlightenment, and a rare few after achieving it make a vow to keep comming back till the world is free from suffering.

Very nicely stated, esp, "...distractions of this world interfering with our perception".

JKellyMap 05-13-2019 08:15 AM

“Knowledge is learning something every day. Wisdom is letting go of something every day.” — Zen proverb

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKellyMap (Post 21639243)
“Knowledge is learning something every day. Wisdom is letting go of something every day.” — Zen proverb

See it was quotes like that which kind of got me into this bind in the first place. This stuff doesn’t help or liberate me, it just hurts.

I wasn’t interested in heaven, or enlightenment, or whatever spiritual endgame. I just wanted to live life. But I can’t shake the sense that Buddhism is “correct” and anything I do besides it is “wrong”. Truthfully I don’t really care much about the teachings or what they claim, but the fear of living a lie or being wrong is so great that it keeps drawing me back to this stuff even though deep down I don’t want to. It’s like I’m hostage in my own body.

kanicbird 05-13-2019 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639337)
See it was quotes like that which kind of got me into this bind in the first place. This stuff doesn’t help or liberate me, it just hurts.

I wasn’t interested in heaven, or enlightenment, or whatever spiritual endgame. I just wanted to live life. But I can’t shake the sense that Buddhism is “correct” and anything I do besides it is “wrong”. Truthfully I don’t really care much about the teachings or what they claim, but the fear of living a lie or being wrong is so great that it keeps drawing me back to this stuff even though deep down I don’t want to. It’s like I’m hostage in my own body.

That sounds very much like a 'calling', it has it's purpose, though one can resist, but the resistance to a calling is what is living the lie.

I would suggest seeking different aspects of Buddhism, there are many variations and many aspects of it to explore. The parts you have already explored don't hold your attention. It may be just part of your own life which is trying to change.

QuickSilver 05-13-2019 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639337)
See it was quotes like that which kind of got me into this bind in the first place. This stuff doesn’t help or liberate me, it just hurts.

I wasn’t interested in heaven, or enlightenment, or whatever spiritual endgame. I just wanted to live life. But I can’t shake the sense that Buddhism is “correct” and anything I do besides it is “wrong”. Truthfully I don’t really care much about the teachings or what they claim, but the fear of living a lie or being wrong is so great that it keeps drawing me back to this stuff even though deep down I don’t want to. It’s like I’m hostage in my own body.

Have you sought professional treatment for your pattern of unhealthy obsessive thought behavior?

Start there and put your time and energy to achieving healthier outcomes.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanicbird (Post 21639352)
That sounds very much like a 'calling', it has it's purpose, though one can resist, but the resistance to a calling is what is living the lie.

I would suggest seeking different aspects of Buddhism, there are many variations and many aspects of it to explore. The parts you have already explored don't hold your attention. It may be just part of your own life which is trying to change.

A calling isn’t rooted in fear and paranoia. Bear in mind I’m afraid I’m wrong and living a lie mostly because Buddhism says so. And there is a notion in the West of Buddhism as “different” from others. It’s what makes it hard to let go unlike other religions.

I don’t know why either, the way their advice gets framed sometimes sounds like anything but compassion and makes you feel bad for just being human.

Like this one part I read some where: “The cause are mental fabrications that fabricate loneliness. Stop fabricating mental fabrications that fabricate loneliness. In your case, if you're using social media to ease loneliness, it's like postponing the resolution of suffering to a latter date. Instead of focusing on the cause of your loneliness, you're focusing on social media. You think you need social media to ease loneliness. In reality you most probably don't need social media ... you just need to get rid of loneliness. Once you'll get rid of loneliness, you'll probably stop spending time on social media.
What you're experiencing is normal suffering due to loneliness. Psychologists will tell you it's normal as long as it does not interfere negatively on your physical or mental health. Most people do something to ease feelings of loneliness (make new friends, read, do sports, watch TV, ..). But that's not curing loneliness. It's like having a disease and alleviating its symptoms. This is no different than being depressive and drinking alcohol to ease the depression. Off course it's not dysfunctional as drinking alcohol, but the mechanism is the same: you suffer, and instead of resolving your main problems which are the cause of your suffering, you're postponing their resolution to a later date.”

It makes me feel bad for being lonely and wanting friends. Like that’s some kind of disease. It makes the assumption that my life sucked when really my life was pretty good before it.

Telemark 05-13-2019 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 21639371)
Have you sought professional treatment for your pattern of unhealthy obsessive thought behavior?

Yes, religion is the least of the OP's problems.

Procrustus 05-13-2019 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639337)
See it was quotes like that which kind of got me into this bind in the first place. This stuff doesn’t help or liberate me, it just hurts.

I wasn’t interested in heaven, or enlightenment, or whatever spiritual endgame. I just wanted to live life. But I can’t shake the sense that Buddhism is “correct” and anything I do besides it is “wrong”. Truthfully I don’t really care much about the teachings or what they claim, but the fear of living a lie or being wrong is so great that it keeps drawing me back to this stuff even though deep down I don’t want to. It’s like I’m hostage in my own body.

Several billion people get by without Buddhism every day. I truly don't understand why you can't, especially since you don't actually care for it. What do you expect to hear when you post "Buddhism feels like a chain for me?" Do you expect someone will post something that will bring clarity and insight that will help you accept this particular faith? Or are you seeking permission to let it go?

If I posted here that I'm so sick of Dancing With the Stars, and I don't enjoy it one bit, but I try to watch each and every episode, people would rightfully tell me to just stop watching that stupid show.

Doctor Jackson 05-13-2019 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuickSilver (Post 21639371)
Have you sought professional treatment for your pattern of unhealthy obsessive thought behavior?

Start there and put your time and energy to achieving healthier outcomes.

Yes, this! Heavens, son, you make things wayyyyy more difficult than they need to be....

Swampwolf 05-13-2019 10:42 AM

Yeah, dude. I'm gonna join in with others here and say "Let it go." Having read a fair number of your posts, it's obvious to me that you're a seeker. That's great! It's also a tough path, because there is no actual goal. Well, there is a goal, but as soon as you reach it, there's another one right over the horizon. There's nothing wrong with that, but you may discover that, for your own well-being, you'll have to discard the seeking and replace it with satisfaction. I'm seeing a lot of intelligence, but also a lot of complexity. Some Buddhist philosophies promote simplicity. ISTM that's something that could be of great benefit to you.

Now, I'm just making this up as I go, so bear with me. Spirituality can be a lot like materialism: "I have knowledge, but there's more out there. I just know it!" is, at its core, no different than "I have money and stuff, but I could have more. I just know it!" If you have the ability to be satisfied with what you have materially, or what can be obtained through the course of your life, you can translate that to your philosophical pursuits. As in, the same mindset of "I have money for bills, a roof over my head, food on my table, and can save for retirement. I don't need to be a millionaire with three houses and a fleet of yachts" can turn into "I know a bit about how life works. I know how to ask for what I need, and to treat people well. I don't need to know how consciousness evolved, or the mind of the creator."

Of course, if what you're looking for is an overall meaning-of-life philosophy to live by, I'm gonna have to suggest the four words that have changed my life. "Don't be a dick." Every interaction with someone, ask yourself, "am I being a dick?" If the answer is yes, interact differently.

See? Simplification. It's a good way to shake off the chains.

Gyrate 05-13-2019 10:59 AM

It sounds like you met the Buddha on the road and, instead of killing him, you're now giving him a piggyback ride.

There are no "right" answers to life, the universe and everything (Douglas Adams notwithstanding). Have a nice bowl of strawberries, maybe with some cream on. Enjoy them in the moment. That'll bring you closer to Buddha than any article.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Procrustus (Post 21639456)
Several billion people get by without Buddhism every day. I truly don't understand why you can't, especially since you don't actually care for it. What do you expect to hear when you post "Buddhism feels like a chain for me?" Do you expect someone will post something that will bring clarity and insight that will help you accept this particular faith? Or are you seeking permission to let it go?

If I posted here that I'm so sick of Dancing With the Stars, and I don't enjoy it one bit, but I try to watch each and every episode, people would rightfully tell me to just stop watching that stupid show.

I guess I’m looking for permission to let go. But it’s hard though, especially when people paint it as capital T truth. Makes it hard to let go. I mean the advice for loneliness makes it seem like making friends to relieve it is akin to an alcoholic getting a drink, it’s feeding the addiction. That’s just one case, but it makes me feel bad for wanting things or feeling things. Then I’m left in stasis wondering what to do. It’s like I can’t do anything I want without in the back of my mind thinking “Buddhism says this is wrong” (a gross generalization but I think that’s the general theme from what I read).

Gyrate 05-13-2019 11:13 AM

Ironically, "letting go" is one of the central tenets of Buddhism. You have permission from "Buddhism". You need permission from yourself.

I repeat - have some strawberries. Strawberries are nice.

Czarcasm 05-13-2019 11:17 AM

I'm sorry, but this constant religious/philosophical masochism you post on leads me to believe that even if we somehow convinced you to walk away from this current dilemma, you would immediately seek out another path that would vex you greatly.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swampwolf (Post 21639584)
Yeah, dude. I'm gonna join in with others here and say "Let it go." Having read a fair number of your posts, it's obvious to me that you're a seeker. That's great! It's also a tough path, because there is no actual goal. Well, there is a goal, but as soon as you reach it, there's another one right over the horizon. There's nothing wrong with that, but you may discover that, for your own well-being, you'll have to discard the seeking and replace it with satisfaction. I'm seeing a lot of intelligence, but also a lot of complexity. Some Buddhist philosophies promote simplicity. ISTM that's something that could be of great benefit to you.

Now, I'm just making this up as I go, so bear with me. Spirituality can be a lot like materialism: "I have knowledge, but there's more out there. I just know it!" is, at its core, no different than "I have money and stuff, but I could have more. I just know it!" If you have the ability to be satisfied with what you have materially, or what can be obtained through the course of your life, you can translate that to your philosophical pursuits. As in, the same mindset of "I have money for bills, a roof over my head, food on my table, and can save for retirement. I don't need to be a millionaire with three houses and a fleet of yachts" can turn into "I know a bit about how life works. I know how to ask for what I need, and to treat people well. I don't need to know how consciousness evolved, or the mind of the creator."

Of course, if what you're looking for is an overall meaning-of-life philosophy to live by, I'm gonna have to suggest the four words that have changed my life. "Don't be a dick." Every interaction with someone, ask yourself, "am I being a dick?" If the answer is yes, interact differently.

See? Simplification. It's a good way to shake off the chains.

To be honest that’s how I felt before.

I thought about the high life, but to be honest that sounded like too much for me. The older I got (still 27 but bear with me) the more I saw that the grand and the exceptional weren’t that important. That I reached for such things because I was told to. I just liked the every day. The mundane, the “ordinary”. I didn’t need some cosmic whatever or insight to the truth of reality. I knew enough and had some. The claims from Buddhism about suffering kind of fell on deaf ears originally since the stuff they said caused it, didn’t apply for me. I didn’t see it that way. The simple life sounded good and while part of me as a kid valued being like those all knowing and wise characters (who seemed to have everything under control) I can’t help but feel secretly that I envied the “fool” (since they were simple, Unconcerned about the capital T and just about the right now).

But somewhere along the line madness descended and then it became a contest of who was happier. They seemed like they were happier than me and that meant I was wrong in some way. They said I was living a lie and what I valued wasn’t real and that terrified me. I guess that’s what chained me to it, and what keeps me from leaving. Fear.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrate (Post 21639660)
Ironically, "letting go" is one of the central tenets of Buddhism. You have permission from "Buddhism". You need permission from yourself.

I repeat - have some strawberries. Strawberries are nice.

Strawberries are bitter for me but great in cake.

As for let go, it’s more complex than that from what I hear.

Gyrate 05-13-2019 11:33 AM

Have a moderate amount of cake then.

And start by letting go of the little things.

kanicbird 05-13-2019 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639381)
A calling isn’t rooted in fear and paranoia.

Quote:

The calling itself - no, not following it - yes, or at least it could be. The biblical story of Johan tells of a calling that someone was running from.

Bear in mind I’m afraid I’m wrong and living a lie mostly because Buddhism says so. And there is a notion in the West of Buddhism as “different” from others. It’s what makes it hard to let go unlike other religions.
One of the principals of Il Won Buddhism is that it is no different, it is not Dharma, but it is a door to it. They acknowledge other religions also are doors to it. So perhaps learning more about it will show you that, while it is different in ways, it is basically the same as all others. And it has to be, due to all religions point towards dharma for the seeker.

Quote:

I don’t know why either, the way their advice gets framed sometimes sounds like anything but compassion and makes you feel bad for just being human.

Like this one part I read some where: “The cause are mental fabrications that fabricate loneliness. Stop fabricating mental fabrications that fabricate loneliness. In your case, if you're using social media to ease loneliness, it's like postponing the resolution of suffering to a latter date. Instead of focusing on the cause of your loneliness, you're focusing on social media. You think you need social media to ease loneliness. In reality you most probably don't need social media ... you just need to get rid of loneliness. Once you'll get rid of loneliness, you'll probably stop spending time on social media.
What you're experiencing is normal suffering due to loneliness.
Ok, this one is easy, it's basically you have to master it and not have it as your master. It does not mean no more social media, but there could be such a period of adjusting, but it has to be in it's proper place. If you have identified the problem, loneliness and realized that your solution (social media) is not a long term solution, you need to seek a long term solution.

Quote:

Psychologists will tell you it's normal as long as it does not interfere negatively on your physical or mental health. Most people do something to ease feelings of loneliness (make new friends, read, do sports, watch TV, ..). But that's not curing loneliness. It's like having a disease and alleviating its symptoms. This is no different than being depressive and drinking alcohol to ease the depression. Off course it's not dysfunctional as drinking alcohol, but the mechanism is the same: you suffer, and instead of resolving your main problems which are the cause of your suffering, you're postponing their resolution to a later date.”

It makes me feel bad for being lonely and wanting friends. Like that’s some kind of disease. It makes the assumption that my life sucked when really my life was pretty good before it.
Ok, so what you are doing does not work, why repeat it (definition of insanity). Try something different. Perhaps a pilgrimage would help. Make a journey somewhere, somewhere where there are other people taking such a journey. Learn the life and ways of such a person, you might find a deeper level of conectiveness then you knew possible, and just might learn the real meaning of friendship and family along the way.

Swampwolf 05-13-2019 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639702)
To be honest that’s how I felt before.
But somewhere along the line madness descended and then it became a contest of who was happier. They seemed like they were happier than me and that meant I was wrong in some way. They said I was living a lie and what I valued wasn’t real and that terrified me. I guess that’s what chained me to it, and what keeps me from leaving. Fear.

Ahh, screw that noise. Pain and happiness are both subjective to a degree. It's nobody else's business whether you're "happy enough." Only yours. There's no definite scale there. You don't have to be happier than anyone else. Just happier than you were when you weren't as happy as you are now.

And as far as "They?" Are they the same "they" as "everybody?" as in "Everybody knows_______?"

They're idiots.

You value what means something to you, not to them. They're not intrinsically more worthy of determining what's important than you are. To piggyback on a little philosophy: If we are all the same, all part of the same consciousness, et cetera, then your knowledge, your opinions, your values carry the same weight as everyone else's. Or, to translate into "old southern man," Screw 'em. They ain't livin' your life.

Ann Hedonia 05-13-2019 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21638835)
I'd rather nothing think about anything metaphysical or religious really. I was born into it, but was better off without it.

But it's hard to just forget about what I have read. Including them saying that materialism is dated or wrong.

What do you mean when you say you were born into it? Were your parents serious practioneers of some flavor of Zenlike Eastern philosophy or religion?

Voyager 05-13-2019 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639649)
I guess I’m looking for permission to let go.

Permission from who? The only person you need permission from is you.
Quote:

But it’s hard though, especially when people paint it as capital T truth. Makes it hard to let go.
Given that people paint Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. etc. with the capital T Truth you can conclude that none of them is right.
Here's a capital T truth: 99% of what people tell you is bullshit, and the other 1% is correct in the sense that a stopped clock is correct twice a day. You don't need a capital T truth, you need a pretty good truth, or good enough truth, that will not make you miserable.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanicbird (Post 21639777)
One of the principals of Il Won Buddhism is that it is no different, it is not Dharma, but it is a door to it. They acknowledge other religions also are doors to it. So perhaps learning more about it will show you that, while it is different in ways, it is basically the same as all others. And it has to be, due to all religions point towards dharma for the seeker.



Ok, this one is easy, it's basically you have to master it and not have it as your master. It does not mean no more social media, but there could be such a period of adjusting, but it has to be in it's proper place. If you have identified the problem, loneliness and realized that your solution (social media) is not a long term solution, you need to seek a long term solution.



Ok, so what you are doing does not work, why repeat it (definition of insanity). Try something different. Perhaps a pilgrimage would help. Make a journey somewhere, somewhere where there are other people taking such a journey. Learn the life and ways of such a person, you might find a deeper level of conectiveness then you knew possible, and just might learn the real meaning of friendship and family along the way.

That's actually not what I was getting at, more like how they make loneliness (a part of being a social animal) seem like a disease and that seeking friends (not social media, I don't do that) is just a band-aid.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia (Post 21639860)
What do you mean when you say you were born into it? Were your parents serious practioneers of some flavor of Zenlike Eastern philosophy or religion?

More like born into religion/spirituality.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voyager (Post 21639915)
Permission from who? The only person you need permission from is you.

Given that people paint Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, etc. etc. with the capital T Truth you can conclude that none of them is right.
Here's a capital T truth: 99% of what people tell you is bullshit, and the other 1% is correct in the sense that a stopped clock is correct twice a day. You don't need a capital T truth, you need a pretty good truth, or good enough truth, that will not make you miserable.

True enough. It's funny I keep telling myself that all the time. Everyone thinks they have capitial T truth. But for some reason I convince myself that Buddhism is somehow the exception. Maybe it's the personal accounts of people who do it, or maybe it's the serene sort of sureness they have, but I don't know why I can say no to all the others but not them.

Darren Garrison 05-13-2019 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrate (Post 21639660)
I repeat - have some strawberries. Strawberries are nice.


Yeah, that's just what a Buddhist would say!

elbows 05-13-2019 02:12 PM

For a guy who finds the water distasteful you sure go to the well a lot. Consider changing that.

There is no ‘they’. It’s all YOU.

If you don’t like Buddhism, quit looking there for answers. It’s not hard or complicated.

Nava 05-13-2019 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639649)
I guess I’m looking for permission to let go.

You have to give it to yourself.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21639975)

And yet on that same page:

"It amazes me how often I’ve seen the word “is” throughtout this site. Nothing “is”. Things resemble, apeear, or have some qualities of other things, but no thing “IS” another thing. Most grown adults know what “is” means, so most grown adults lie incessantly everyday. “The sky IS blue. The air IS cold. That man IS ugly.” Lies.

Not mistakes, not semantic differences, but mere lies."

"My understanding of koans was that they are meant to break your reliance on language, because the concepts they confer cannot be communicated with language. Sort of fighting fire with fire. So there really shouldn’t be written interpretations…"

Which really just adds to my issues with Buddhism.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nava (Post 21640176)
You have to give it to yourself.

I tried that before, really I did. But no matter how heartfelt, thought out, or reasoned I was, fear just ruled out. Fear that I am disobeying or lying to myself, fear that they are right (crazy I know) and that I am wrong by not listening to them. I have given myself permission, but it does nothing.

kenobi 65 05-13-2019 02:54 PM

I've read a number of your threads here on various philosophical and religious topics. You come across, in your posts here, as obsessed with the topic, and desperately seeking a way forward. I'll reiterate the advice that's already been given several times here: talk to a counselor or therapist.

Telemark 05-13-2019 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenobi 65 (Post 21640265)
I'll reiterate the advice that's already been given several times here: talk to a counselor or therapist.

He's gotten that advice here literally for several years. I see no evidence that he's seriously looking for a solution to his problem, which as most folks here have concluded has nothing to do with religion.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenobi 65 (Post 21640265)
I've read a number of your threads here on various philosophical and religious topics. You come across, in your posts here, as obsessed with the topic, and desperately seeking a way forward. I'll reiterate the advice that's already been given several times here: talk to a counselor or therapist.

I can’t afford one.

kenobi 65 05-13-2019 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21640392)
I can’t afford one.

I have no idea where you live, or if you have already looked into it, but there may be free (or low cost) counseling services available through your school (if you're in school), your employer, or your local hospital or health department.

Regardless, the amount of angst and obsession you display on these topics (and have for a long while) certainly suggests that you are in need of something beyond conversations with people on a message board.

Machinaforce 05-13-2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenobi 65 (Post 21640451)
I have no idea where you live, or if you have already looked into it, but there may be free (or low cost) counseling services available through your school (if you're in school), your employer, or your local hospital or health department.

Regardless, the amount of angst and obsession you display on these topics (and have for a long while) certainly suggests that you are in need of something beyond conversations with people on a message board.

Thing is that the guy I usually see (like over 4 years) I can’t afford, and I’m not sure about starting from square 1. Last time I talked to one I could afford he was pretty bad.

begbert2 05-13-2019 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21640245)
I tried that before, really I did. But no matter how heartfelt, thought out, or reasoned I was, fear just ruled out. Fear that I am disobeying or lying to myself, fear that they are right (crazy I know) and that I am wrong by not listening to them. I have given myself permission, but it does nothing.

You have my personal permission not to listen to those idiots. They're not right, except in the sense (and frequency) of a stopped clock. When it comes to their wild assertions about the cosmology of reality they're really not right. Incoherence is not wisdom.

I'll tell ya, the thing that boggles my mind is that you think that these particular idiots have a hotline to truth, when they're just one voice in a sea of contradicting voice. It sounds like you're listening to them because they're wrong, and because the things they say confuse you and make you unhappy. They say things that don't make sense to you and rather than entertaining the idea that they're idiots you assume there's some truth to the nonsensical things they say.

kanicbird 05-13-2019 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinaforce (Post 21639949)
That's actually not what I was getting at, more like how they make loneliness (a part of being a social animal) seem like a disease and that seeking friends (not social media, I don't do that) is just a band-aid.


And I assume from this post is that's what is bothering you?

Given this my suggestion would be to find out what is a 'friend' and see if your current friends fit that definition. Now how about to find out what is a friend, that is your journey and if you wish to explore it. In that I can give my own experience.

I thought I knew what a friend was, and thought I had friends. I undertook a long journey/pilgrimage and found out in short that friends don't leave one lonely, it is a continuous knowing that they are there and you are in their hearts, and that ends loneliness. There is a synergy also that the times you get together is mutually positive with positive after effects, not a longing for more, nor not a demand to be seen. We tend to focus on the wrong people when we count our friends.


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