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-   -   Courage to Change: another bad AOC idea (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=890467)

dalej42 02-21-2020 03:45 PM

Courage to Change: another bad AOC idea
 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.n...mp/ncna1140306

What a dumb idea from AOC, who hasn’t even completed a term in Congress. Perhaps AOC still lives in her bubble, but she should understand that it wasn’t the squad who flipped the House in 2018, it was reasonable Democrats in moderate districts. In fact, all of the Our Revolution candidates lost. The Bernie/AOC wing is utterly useless outside of deep blue districts and those don’t represent the country as a whole.

AOC has certainly believed her press, I do hope she doesn’t act like a petulant child when Bernie isn’t the nominee.

No one likes the hotshot new employee who shows up on day one expecting to made CEO before she knows where the bathrooms are. I think AOC is going to get a very harsh dose of cold water dumped on her head when she decides to bless the House of Representatives with her presence and return to doing the job she was elected to do. Pelosi has been around a long time and has seen upstarts come and go.

iiandyiiii 02-21-2020 03:59 PM

Oh no! A young progressive politician (who just happens to have a lot of talent and charisma) is trying to encourage and support other progressive politicians! How terrible for the party that young, enthusiastic progressives are trying to encourage and rally other young progressives to fight for progressive policies!

JohnT 02-21-2020 04:07 PM

So... is this about politics and elections, or is this yet another AOC pitting, misplaced and misforumed?

(For those who want to know what has Dale so upset, is that AOC is setting up a PAC for... get this... progressive candidates. Whoda thunk?)

Yookeroo 02-21-2020 04:08 PM

What am I missing? She's not allowed to endorse candidates she likes?

iiandyiiii 02-21-2020 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yookeroo (Post 22151942)
What am I missing? She's not allowed to endorse candidates she likes?

You're not missing anything. Democrats should be very pleased that such a talented young Democrat is getting a lot of enthusiasm and attention. I guess some folks just find energetic, enthusiastic young people who think for themselves threatening, but it doesn't make any logical sense.

Grrr! 02-21-2020 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22151906)
when she decides to bless the House of Representatives with her presence and return to doing the job she was elected to do.

AOC is one of the hardest working congresscritters out there. While others are busy fundraising she's attending hearing after hearing grilling the fuck out of bank executives, social media moguls, etc...

Mr. Duality 02-21-2020 04:27 PM

Change is coming, dalej42. You can't stop it.

Marx was on the right track with his synthesis, antithesis, change catchphrase.

Thing Fish 02-21-2020 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 22151939)
So... is this about politics and elections, or is this yet another AOC pitting, misplaced and misforumed?

(For those who want to know what has Dale so upset, is that AOC is setting up a PAC for... get this... progressive candidates. Whoda thunk?)

Ah. Thanks. I considered whether it was worthwhile to expend the energy required to click the link to see what he's on about now, and decided not.

Left Hand of Dorkness 02-21-2020 04:39 PM

Moderates are terrified, and terror sometimes hides itself as contempt.

pulykamell 02-21-2020 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness (Post 22151989)
Moderates are terrified, and terror sometimes hides itself as contempt.

Indeed. She wasn't even on my radar until people started bitching about her, and, well, good for her. She's fantastic.

CarnalK 02-21-2020 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness (Post 22151989)
Moderates are terrified, and terror sometimes hides itself as contempt.

People tell themselves that, not sure why, but it could be dalej really does disagree with her. Certainly over the top but why would he be afraid? Does dalej have to worry about the wealth tax?

Mike Mabes 02-21-2020 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22151906)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.n...mp/ncna1140306



AOC has certainly believed her press, I do hope she doesn’t act like a petulant child when Bernie isn’t the nominee.

What reason would there be to think that she would?

Mike Mabes 02-21-2020 06:04 PM

ETA, this isn't the pit, is that too strong?

Mike Mabes 02-21-2020 06:07 PM

server time outs messing me up. The first post had a somewhat snarky comment that I deleted but didn't see the deletion.

CarnalK 02-21-2020 06:33 PM

I wanted to add that I actually think AOC is great though I think she's a little over the top and her assuming this leadership role a tad presumptuous. That's what is pissing off the moderates. Sorry, terrifying the moderates.

Ludovic 02-21-2020 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Duality (Post 22151967)
Change is coming, dalej42. You can't stop it.

Marx was on the right track with his synthesis, antithesis, change catchphrase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness (Post 22151989)
Moderates are terrified, and terror sometimes hides itself as contempt.

Why don't you two work it out and get back on that? :D I haven't paid more attention to AOC than any other random new Congressperson, but if I disagreed with someone and I countered their ideas with ideas then you could say I was part of a reaction leading to a synthesis of the idea even if the idea were total rubbish. Whereas if I called out the idea as total rubbish then I'd be showing contempt. Should useless ideas be countered with total silence?

Exapno Mapcase 02-21-2020 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Duality (Post 22151967)
Change is coming, dalej42. You can't stop it.

This I agree with.

Quote:

Marx was on the right track with his synthesis, antithesis, change catchphrase.
This stopped me. AFAIK, nobody has ever said this.

You're probably thinking of thesis, antithesis, synthesis, which is sometimes attributed to Marx, but not something he actually said. Hegel did use these concepts but not in these terms. German philosopher Johann Fichte is the true author. And I think that synthesis, not change, is what the outcome of this spat will eventually be.

Snowboarder Bo 02-21-2020 09:00 PM

dalej42 has AOC ever done anything that you didn't think was dumb, self-serving, useless, petulant and/or uppity? :dubious:

Smapti 02-21-2020 09:15 PM

The only response I have for the OP is "OK, boomer".

RivkahChaya 02-21-2020 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Duality (Post 22151967)
Change is coming, dalej42. You can't stop it.

Marx was on the right track with his synthesis, antithesis, change catchphrase.

Unfortunately, Dylan wasn't when he said "Come gather 'round people, wherever you roam...."

It actually physically hurts me that he wasn't.

Wesley Clark 02-21-2020 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Duality (Post 22151967)
Change is coming, dalej42. You can't stop it.

Marx was on the right track with his synthesis, antithesis, change catchphrase.

I once heard people keep trying to portray the democratic party as in a civil war between its liberal wing vs its moderate wing.

But it's not. It's a battle between its current voters and its future voters. Sanders and Warren are doing very well among voters under 44 or so.

The future is coming. Every year almost 3 million boomers and silent generation types die off and are replaced by their grandkids. Society is changing.

dalej42 02-22-2020 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo (Post 22152259)
dalej42 has AOC ever done anything that you didn't think was dumb, self-serving, useless, petulant and/or uppity? :dubious:

Yes, the first few months in Congress she did a great job on showcasing her transition from representative elect to Congress on Instagram . She showed the process of finding an office, hiring staff, finding a D.C. apartment. It was fun to see a US Representative in a barren apartment just like the rest of us when we’re in the process of moving.

Shodan 02-22-2020 01:34 PM

Let's hope somebody other than AOC is doing the accounting. Otherwise she will be announcing that she has received more than $150 billion trillion gazillion from almost a dozen donors.

Regards,
Shodan

dalej42 02-22-2020 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shodan (Post 22153075)
Let's hope somebody other than AOC is doing the accounting. Otherwise she will be announcing that she has received more than $150 billion trillion gazillion from almost a dozen donors.

Regards,
Shodan

AOC showed what an idiot she is. She has a degree in economics and managed to mess up Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes, coming up with Milton Keynes. Perhaps she’s been riding trains in England in addition to spending time campaigning for Bernie, Milton Keynes is a town outside of London where it seems every train makes a stop.

In all seriousness, that’s a horrible mistake to make. It would be like someone with a degree in history mixing up Thomas Jefferson and Jefferson Davis.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.b...n-2020-2%3famp

Chefguy 02-22-2020 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smapti (Post 22152273)
The only response I have for the OP is "OK, boomer".

Which is nearly as insulting as the OP.

Dale Sams 02-22-2020 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22151927)
Oh no! A young progressive politician (who just happens to have a lot of talent and charisma) is trying to encourage and support other progressive politicians! How terrible for the party that young, enthusiastic progressives are trying to encourage and rally other young progressives to fight for progressive policies!

Holt: "Sarcasm!! The cowards lie!"

don't mind me 02-22-2020 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smapti (Post 22152273)
The only response I have for the OP is "OK, boomer".

But is he a Karen?

JRDelirious 02-22-2020 06:35 PM

Have you considered an omnibus "latest way AOC is annoying" thread? Because man, does she get under your skin or what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wesley Clark (Post 22152316)
I once heard people keep trying to portray the democratic party as in a civil war between its liberal wing vs its moderate wing.

But it's not. It's a battle between its current voters and its future voters. Sanders and Warren are doing very well among voters under 44 or so.

The future is coming. Every year almost 3 million boomers and silent generation types die off and are replaced by their grandkids. Society is changing.

I am on record elsewhere as mighty skeptical of generational-demographic electoral determinism (sure, the nation may be 1/4 Latino in not that much longer... but don't be shocked if half of them turn out conservatives!); but when it comes to internal primaries, where it's the ideologically committed that are motivated to bother to show up to vote and stay up all night working on the campaign, it may actually work that way. I know precious few passionate centrists among my millennial acquaintances who'll go out there to counterweigh the left-progs.

Of course, by the time the new generation is actually holding the reins of power effectively, they are going to be the establishment. Hope they can properly internalize that.

But hey, if what it takes to stop the putative "center" of American politics' out-of-ontrol rightward slide may just be rattling the establishment's cage with a little dose of actual ideological left, as opposed to over 30 years of running scared from the very word "Liberal"...


Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22153095)
[...]Milton Keynes is a town outside of London where it seems every train makes a stop.

Eh, I catch enough Brit programming that I recognized and laughed at the brainfart. So now we know she watches the BBC feed?

Ann Hedonia 02-22-2020 07:01 PM

i find it mind-blowing that a first term congressperson who hasn’t held office before is skilled enough at fundraising to fund a PAC, and to build a brand as powerful as “AOC”

She’s a once in a generation political talent. This thrills the people that share her views and scares the people that disagree with her views. I think it’s great that she’s able to fund a PAC. Even though I don’t agree with a lot of her views, and I strongly disagree on one in particular that affected me personally* , I can’t help but admire her talent.

*her objection to the Amazon / Long Island City deal

iiandyiiii 02-22-2020 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia (Post 22153477)
i find it mind-blowing that a first term congressperson who hasn’t held office before is skilled enough at fundraising to fund a PAC, and to build a brand as powerful as “AOC”

She’s a once in a generation political talent. This thrills the people that share her views and scares the people that disagree with her views. I think it’s great that she’s able to fund a PAC. Even though I don’t agree with a lot of her views, and I strongly disagree on one in particular that affected me personally* , I can’t help but admire her talent.

*her objection to the Amazon / Long Island City deal

Exactly. Was Obama this good when he was 29? Maybe, but he hadn't gotten this far. I can't wait to see how good AOC is once she's got 5, 10, and 15 years of experience under her belt. The party is absolutely nuts if it pits itself against the most talented young congress-person among its ranks in who-knows how long.

Unreconstructed Man 02-22-2020 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22153490)
Exactly. Was Obama this good when he was 29? Maybe, but he hadn't gotten this far. I can't wait to see how good AOC is once she's got 5, 10, and 15 years of experience under her belt. The party is absolutely nuts if it pits itself against the most talented young congress-person among its ranks in who-knows how long.

This good at what? What has she actually done?

dalej42 02-22-2020 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man (Post 22153572)
This good at what? What has she actually done?

Not a damn thing except win a thinly attended primary and then win an overwhelmingly blue congressional district.

iiandyiiii 02-22-2020 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man (Post 22153572)
This good at what? What has she actually done?

She's become a national political figure, with national fundraising ability, within her first term in Congress. Like it or not, that's a rare feat, and I don't buy that it's random chance.

Unreconstructed Man 02-22-2020 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22153591)
She's become a national political figure, with national fundraising ability, within her first term in Congress. Like it or not, that's a rare feat, and I don't buy that it's random chance.

What has she done to achieve that? What positive actions has she taken? I posit that 100% of her notoriety is down to the following four factors:

1) She’s young.
2) She’s pretty.
3) She’s quite good at Twitter.
4) Tucker Carlson likes to make fun of her.

Point (4) is the main one. Everything about AOC is so perfectly calibrated to fit conservative narratives about brattish millennial pie-in-the-sky idealism that it wouldn’t surprise me to learn she’d been created in a lab by Roger Ailes as a cheap way to generate content. If it weren’t for conservative media dunking on her all the time, most people wouldn’t have a clue who she was.

Obviously, that’s had the side-effect of making her a progressive figurehead. But that’s not because of anything she’s done. It’s because of what’s been done to her. And it’s not self-evident at all that she’s a net plus for left causes.

iiandyiiii 02-22-2020 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man (Post 22153649)
What has she done to achieve that? What positive actions has she taken? I posit that 100% of her notoriety is down to the following four factors:

1) She’s young.
2) She’s pretty.
3) She’s quite good at Twitter.
4) Tucker Carlson likes to make fun of her.

Point (4) is the main one. Everything about AOC is so perfectly calibrated to fit conservative narratives about brattish millennial pie-in-the-sky idealism that it wouldn’t surprise me to learn she’d been created in a lab by Roger Ailes as a cheap way to generate content. If it weren’t for conservative media dunking on her all the time, most people wouldn’t have a clue who she was.

Obviously, that’s had the side-effect of making her a progressive figurehead. But that’s not because of anything she’s done. It’s because of what’s been done to her. And it’s not self-evident at all that she’s a net plus for left causes.

I think that's a pretty sexist (and wrong) way to look at it. I think she has amazing communication skills -- in social media and in person (oratory, interviews, etc.)... once-in-a-generation communication skills. Obama and Bill Clinton-level communications skills, or at least their potential. But we'll see -- obviously lots of folks don't like her. I do, and with time, if I'm right, you and just about every other Democrat will too over the next several years. We'll see.

Unreconstructed Man 02-22-2020 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22153661)
I think that's a pretty sexist (and wrong) way to look at it. I think she has amazing communication skills -- in social media and in person (oratory, interviews, etc.)... once-in-a-generation communication skills. Obama and Bill Clinton-level communications skills, or at least their potential. But we'll see -- obviously lots of folks don't like her. I do, and with time, if I'm right, you and just about every other Democrat will too over the next several years. We'll see.

Why is it sexist? Do you think being young and attractive have had no effect on her popularity. That’s a pretty naive way to look at it. As for her rhetorical skills we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’ve seen plenty of her speeches on YouTube and I don’t think she’s anything special at all.

iiandyiiii 02-22-2020 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man (Post 22153677)
Why is it sexist? Do you think being young and attractive have had no effect on her popularity. That’s a pretty naive way to look at it. As for her rhetorical skills we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’ve seen plenty of her speeches on YouTube and I don’t think she’s anything special at all.

I don't think being "young and attractive" are in the top 4 reasons why she's become so popular. I think her abilities had much more to do with it (which are far more than just "rhetorical skills"). Far too often women's accomplishments are blown off or dismissed because of superficial judgment.

But we'll see. Note this post, and we can check back in 5 and 10 years. If I'm right, it will be very clear.

Grrr! 02-23-2020 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man (Post 22153649)
What has she done to achieve that? What positive actions has she taken? I posit that 100% of her notoriety is down to the following four factors:

1) She’s young.
2) She’s pretty.
3) She’s quite good at Twitter.
4) Tucker Carlson likes to make fun of her.


On the off chance you're actually serious about this I suggest you watch "Knock Down The House" on Netflix. The documentary chronicles her journey from the start of her campaign to the finish where she and her team unseats a giant.

She's done plenty and I am in awe of this lady after watching that documentary.

Ca3799 02-23-2020 03:43 AM

"What has she done?"

Well, first she beat a 10 term Dem incumbent by 15 points with very little support or money while bartending and carrying her campaign around with her in a paper bag.

Then she became the youngest woman to serve in Congress where she's made folks like Mark Zuckerberg and corporations like ExxonMobile answer some pretty tough questions.

No, her "Green New Deal" didn't pass, but it dominated and changed the conversation.

She's media and tech savvy. She knows how to connect with her audience, which is huge. She is a master at making clear statements in 140 characters or less. Fox absolutely loves to hate her so they do a great job of keeping her name in the news, which she leverages well.

She's a master at pointing out ridiculous double standards in politics and in daily life.

She makes complex matters very easy to understand. See her "Let's play a game" clip of about 5 minutes or less where she "plays" a "bad guy" who wants to skirt campaign finance rules during a hearing (here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM1t4RU69c).

And she's likeable, relatable and genuine:

When I see my Congressional reps in the media, I know they don't remember what it's like to work hard, be poor, and to have debt- if they ever did know any of those things. AOC does. She asked for advice on what to plant in her allotted bed at her local community garden.

My Senator said Trump was a 'mobster', a "pathological liar," and was "utterly amoral", but has since then supported and defended Trump at every turn. I don't see AOC ever making a 180 degree turn like that.

It really is remarkable to see a novice work hard break big like this. We could use more like her.

RTFirefly 02-23-2020 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22151946)
You're not missing anything. Democrats should be very pleased that such a talented young Democrat is getting a lot of enthusiasm and attention. I guess some folks just find energetic, enthusiastic young people who think for themselves threatening, but it doesn't make any logical sense.

dalej42 is just pissed that some talented young Democrat besides Buttigieg is getting a lot of enthusiasm and attention. That's all that's happening here.

septimus 02-23-2020 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22153576)
Not a damn thing except win a thinly attended primary and then win an overwhelmingly blue congressional district.

I was impressed with her asking questions of Michael Cohen. Some other Ds on the Committee used their time just to listen to their own voice. AOC may have identified new leads for prosecutors!

When I hear her criticized I hear a redneck voice saying "Uppity bitch don't know her place; she be needin' a man give 'er a taste of sumpin."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness (Post 22151989)
Moderates are terrified, and terror sometimes hides itself as contempt.

I'm a moderate; and probably disapprove of much of her agenda. But I'm still an admirer.

septimus 02-23-2020 09:10 AM

Just in case you're as behind on the news as I am, several months ago Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez endorsed Bernie Sanders for President! She seems pretty intelligent to me.

dalej42 02-23-2020 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by septimus (Post 22154190)
Just in case you're as behind on the news as I am, several months ago Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez endorsed Bernie Sanders for President! She seems pretty intelligent to me.

and Bernie never endorsed her, which was good since Bernie’s candidates usually lose.

Lantern 02-23-2020 10:22 AM

AOC is the Sarah Palin of the left: highly skilled at rousing the faithful but with little governing ability or broader appeal. Like Palin she drives the other side crazy which is wrongly cited as evidence of her political potency.

Ludovic 02-23-2020 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantern (Post 22154292)
AOC is the Sarah Palin of the left: highly skilled at rousing the faithful but with little governing ability or broader appeal. Like Palin she drives the other side crazy which is wrongly cited as evidence of her political potency.

That's not actually a bad observation. However, AOC has the potential to improve with time and experience whereas Palin doesn't get that benefit of the doubt.

JRDelirious 02-23-2020 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantern (Post 22154292)
...highly skilled at rousing the faithful but with little governing ability or broader appeal. Like Palin she drives the other side crazy which is wrongly cited as evidence of her political potency.

Though if you make the other side waste time going after you because "someone's being wrong on the Internet" that is of some utility. Plus they risk having their followers themselves become convinced that their target IS that important and begin actually paying attention...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ludovic (Post 22154293)
That's not actually a bad observation. However, AOC has the potential to improve with time and experience

Which you know that the generation that comes up circa 2040 will call evidence that she's part of the Establishment and should get out of the way. Fortune rota volvitur.

iiandyiiii 02-23-2020 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantern (Post 22154292)
AOC is the Sarah Palin of the left: highly skilled at rousing the faithful but with little governing ability or broader appeal. Like Palin she drives the other side crazy which is wrongly cited as evidence of her political potency.

That's nuts. She's been in office for a year, and she's barely out of her 20s.

Lantern 02-23-2020 12:50 PM

Well like it or not she has become a major political figure and the face of the progressive wing of the party for many people so I do think it is appropriate to compare her to Palin. I agree it's nuts that someone with so little experience has achieved such a high profile but blame the people who, for example, call her the "future of the party".

iiandyiiii 02-23-2020 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantern (Post 22154508)
Well like it or not she has become a major political figure and the face of the progressive wing of the party for many people so I do think it is appropriate to compare her to Palin. I agree it's nuts that someone with so little experience has achieved such a high profile but blame the people who, for example, call her the "future of the party".

It's crazy to compare her to Palin just for being young and popular. If that's enough to be Palin, then Obama was Palin before Palin!

Just ludicrous. Democrats should be excited that such a talented and energetic young politician is an enthusiastic progressive Democrat.

Saintly Loser 02-23-2020 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22153576)
Not a damn thing except win a thinly attended primary and then win an overwhelmingly blue congressional district.

She won a primary against a ten-year incumbent who was chair of the House Democratic Caucus, considered to be the probable successor to Nancy Pelosi as Speaker, and boss of the Queens County Democratic organization.

That was no small accomplishment.

And yes, her district is overwhelmingly blue (much like, say, Nancy Pelosi's district), as is just about every district in New York City. So what?

I know her district quite well, having grown up there, and spent half my adult life in the district. The people there aren't idiots, and voters turned out for her rather than the boss who'd held the seat for a decade.

She is persuasive. She's smart and driven and charismatic, and she's not going away. And, like it or not, she, and others like her, are the future of the party.

The old guard better embrace that, or they're going to be left behind.


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