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-   -   Biggest loser of primary season now that it is decided? (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=892271)

Linden Arden 03-21-2020 07:25 PM

Biggest loser of primary season now that it is decided?
 
I say Medicare For All. And thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster for that.

I can now comfortably vote for the Democratic candidate and with some support get rid of Trump.

( I would have been forced to vote for Trump to not jeopardize my family's excellent private health insurance for the DMV version).

iiandyiiii 03-21-2020 08:30 PM

Uggh. While I'm glad you'll vote for the presumptive candidate, that you'd vote for Trump just because of a teeny-tiny chance of harming your insurance, vs mass suffering to thousands upon thousands due to Trump's monstrous policies, does say something about your values.

Linden Arden 03-21-2020 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22202915)
Uggh. While I'm glad you'll vote for the presumptive candidate, that you'd vote for Trump just because of a teeny-tiny chance of harming your insurance, vs mass suffering to thousands upon thousands due to Trump's monstrous policies, does say something about your values.

Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.

But MFA is dead at last I hope. I don't want my family to stand in line at the DMV for medical care.

I hope we can defeat Trump together as Biden voters.

Whack-a-Mole 03-21-2020 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22202988)
Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.

But MFA is dead at last I hope. I don't want my family to stand in line at the DMV for medical care.

I hope we can defeat Trump together as Biden voters.

Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?

If you want the best medical care for your family M4A is the way to go.

Linden Arden 03-21-2020 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole (Post 22203071)
Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?

If you want the best medical care for your family M4A is the way to go.




I support Universal Health Care! I support the ACA! I support a public option!

I just want to retain my quality private insurance as is my right in a market society and I don't want my family to stand in line for the garbage that 'Medicare For All' will become when everyone has the same shit the US Post Office and DMV sells.

I want to pay for a first class seat. And I will. And Bernie and Liz will wither away like the worthless Useless Idiots they are.

susan 03-21-2020 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lokoko (Post 22203082)
Thank you all for your kindness to me, I wish you good health and good luck!
Official Website:[URL="xxx[/URL]

Reported.

iiandyiiii 03-21-2020 10:24 PM

Best, and easiest, health care I ever got was entirely government run - when I was active duty in the Navy. If anyone ever tells you that government run health care always sucks, they obviously never served in the military. The VA needs a lot of improvement, but active duty care is utterly fantastic, with no worries or bureaucracy to deal with. Just great care, already paid for by the government.

Whack-a-Mole 03-21-2020 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22203089)
I support Universal Health Care! I support the ACA! I support a public option!

I just want to retain my quality private insurance as is my right in a market society and I don't want my family to stand in line for the garbage that 'Medicare For All' will become when everyone has the same shit the US Post Office and DMV sells.

I want to pay for a first class seat. And I will. And Bernie and Liz will wither away like the worthless Useless Idiots they are.

That "garbage" provides better health outcomes in most other countries.

In short, you or your employer are paying a LOT of money for sub-standard goods.

Weird thing is you are happy with that.

Linden Arden 03-21-2020 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole (Post 22203097)
That "garbage" provides better health outcomes in most other countries.

In short, you or your employer are paying a LOT of money for sub-standard goods.

Weird thing is you are happy with that.

The "health outcomes" you care about are for the 20-30 million who don't pay for insurance now.

I don't care about those people beyond Medicaid that the ACA gives them.

I care about my family.

That is what you socialists will never understand. Markets discover price relevance.

Whack-a-Mole 03-21-2020 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22203111)
The "health outcomes" you care about are for the 20-30 million who don't pay for insurance now.

I don't care about those people beyond Medicaid that the ACA gives them.

I care about my family.

That is what you socialists will never understand. Markets discover price relevance.

You are completely wrong.

Just Google "world health outcomes ranking" since I doubt you will believe me.

Overall your chances of surviving in a US hospital are lower than most western European hospitals that all have socialized medicine. And it costs less too...a lot less.

But you are content to pay more for subpar results. Maybe you just have lots of money and don't care if you squander it.

bobot 03-21-2020 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22202809)
...

( I would have been forced to vote for Trump ....


Get the fuck out of here with that not responsible for my own actions BULLSHIT.

str8cashhomie 03-21-2020 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22202988)
Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.

But MFA is dead at last I hope. I don't want my family to stand in line at the DMV for medical care.

I hope we can defeat Trump together as Biden voters.

The thing I don't get about this is that to prevent something you think would take away your healthcare, you would vote for a party that is currently suing the federal government to try to completely remove Obamacare, and a president who is refusing to defend the law in court.

This doesn't exactly matter now as Biden is going to be the nominee and has a UHC proposal you apparently can live with, but I really don't get that this particular issue is a case where Trump is a better candidate than any Democrat in your eyes.

Zakalwe 03-21-2020 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22203111)
The "health outcomes" you care about are for the 20-30 million who don't pay for insurance now.

I don't care about those people beyond Medicaid that the ACA gives them.

I care about my family.

That is what you socialists will never understand. Markets discover price relevance.

No, the "health outcomes" are across total populations. Many of those countries also have private insurance on top of Universal Health Care (UHC). It's an add on for those that can afford it and provides some benefits. You'd likely be better off with UHC and private add-on - both financially and in terms of outcomes.

ACA does not give everybody Medicaid, that's why the new plans were called...wait for it...Medicaid For All. You have obviously done VERY little research on this. ACA offered states the option to expand the rolls of Medicaid, but not to everybody. And a fair number of states (mostly those run by Republican Governors and/or Legislatures) declined to take the offer.

I don't doubt you care about your family. Our concern here is that you don't seem to care about anybody else's - and have stated as much. I hope you don't lose that job and that excellent private health insurance someday, but it would be nice if you might try to have a little empathy and care about those who have lost theirs (or never had it in the first place).

dalej42 03-21-2020 11:05 PM

Rather than beat the M4A dead horse again, it’s clear the biggest loser of the primary season was Elizabeth Warren. Has a major candidate ever finished 3rd in their own state?
Spending so long on fundraising purity tests and then gets exposed as a hypocrite. Rants about super pacs, then has one supporting her with most of the money coming from just one donor.

My guess is Warren resigns from the Senate after 2022 or declines to run for reelection. She can go back to academia and hit the speaking circuit. Massachusetts has a deep D bench and she’s ripe for a primary challenge.

Linden Arden 03-21-2020 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22203149)
Rather than beat the M4A dead horse again, itís clear the biggest loser of the primary season was Elizabeth Warren. Has a major candidate ever finished 3rd in their own state?
Spending so long on fundraising purity tests and then gets exposed as a hypocrite. Rants about super pacs, then has one supporting her with most of the money coming from just one donor.

My guess is Warren resigns from the Senate after 2022 or declines to run for reelection. She can go back to academia and hit the speaking circuit. Massachusetts has a deep D bench and sheís ripe for a primary challenge.

Thank you! Warren was just a sorry-ass candidate who ran against President Obama and all tech companies and embraced a gigantic $5.2 trillion year single payer debacle. She was a terrible candidate and voters knew it.

PHEW!!!!

For you single payer people - try again in about 10-15 years. Voters hate that shit!

Linden Arden 03-21-2020 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakalwe (Post 22203141)
No, the "health outcomes" are across total populations.

And once again I don't give a fucking rat's ass about "total populations". I care about the micro-economics of my family. You socialists will never understand that.

Superdude 03-21-2020 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susan (Post 22203094)
Reported.

Same

Lord Feldon 03-22-2020 12:29 AM

The cult of healthcare plans is simply bizarre. It has infected a large portion of the electorate on every possible side of every aisle, every Democratic campaign, as well as pretty much the entire media.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole (Post 22203071)
Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?

The first part is flatly untrue.

Whack-a-Mole 03-22-2020 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Feldon (Post 22203245)
The first part is flatly untrue.

Ok...who did I miss?

RTFirefly 03-22-2020 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22202988)
Yes, I agree that Trump is a despicable monster but I have to look out for my family's well-being first.

Insurance is important to have, but when you place a greater value on having insurance than on not having a deadly plague loose in the land, I have to worry about you. Insurance won't protect you or your family from catching this thing, nor will it protect you from the societal fallout even if you don't catch it.

RTFirefly 03-22-2020 05:51 AM

People routinely die, here in the United States of America, precisely because it's decided to be a "market society" with respect to health care, which is extremely unsuited for being a market good. And that's just the day-in, day-out side of things.

More germane to our present moment, one outcome of our largely private, "market society" medical system is that it has little in the way of reserve capacity for an outbreak like this. Reserve capacity is an investment with a 0% return, until that day you need it. It's basically an insurance policy, writ large.

But it's a mismatch. We, the people, are the ones who need that reserve capacity. We're the ones who need that insurance policy, not the big corporations that own the chains of hospitals. By letting this big piece of our medical 'system' become privatized, we've placed the maintenance of that reserve in the hands of institutions that have every incentive to get rid of it.

Now, as the storm of COVID-19 gathers force, there is little reserve in the way of everything from hospital beds to personal protective equipment to ventilators, and people are going to die specifically because of these shortages.

This is what happens when you treat health care like a market good.

Wesley Clark 03-22-2020 11:23 AM

As a Sanders supporter, I'd say Sanders.

He won the first 3 primary states, now has no chance against a candidate who was written off months ago. He went from a revolution to barely pulling in 30-40% of the vote.

Also its becoming clear that a lot of Sanders support in 2016 wasn't because people liked his ideas, it was because they hated Hillary Clinton.

Also people keep making very valid criticisms of Sanders by telling him 'how will you get these laws passed, how will you pay for them' and he has no real answers.

Also Sanders did worse in tons of states this time than he did last time. Including his home state of vermont. He won 85% of the vote in 2016 and barely 50% in 2020.

Also the youth vote didn't show up to help him get elected, and some studies showed him turning off purple voters in the suburbs.

I would say a big winner this primary season though was the concept that you can't buy an election. Bloomberg flooded the airwaves with hundreds of millions of dollars and barely won any delegates. That is a good sign for democracy that money doesn't necessarily equal victory.

Wesley Clark 03-22-2020 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22203089)
I support Universal Health Care! I support the ACA! I support a public option!

I just want to retain my quality private insurance as is my right in a market society and I don't want my family to stand in line for the garbage that 'Medicare For All' will become when everyone has the same shit the US Post Office and DMV sells.

I want to pay for a first class seat. And I will. And Bernie and Liz will wither away like the worthless Useless Idiots they are.

Out of curiosity, would you support the 'medicare extra for all' plan?

https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...extra-for-all/

Its basically a strong public option that auto enrolls the uninsured. People who wanted to keep their private insurance could keep it.

JRDelirious 03-22-2020 11:55 AM

First taking a step away from the unfortunately phrased OP and hopping on to dalej42's comment about Warren -- IMO yes the primary season saw on the one hand not so much a straight rejection of the more "pure" progressive stances strictly on their merit, which may have been well received, but on how their presentation began sounding a bit too boondoggley, too trust-me-I'll-make-it-work and could not be succesfuly sold to the public as something that would restore tranquility and normality.

Part it was the hard-left Bernie wing that was allowed to be the ones to define the terms; to use the mentioned example 12 years ago "Medicare for All" was a reasonable sounding proposal (after all, you can STILL pay into a private insurer to get "a first class ticket" over and above basic Medicare) but the Progressive Purists this time around redefined it into something far more thorough that that, and turned it into an "are you with us or against us" challenge question. And to this day some Sanderistas go on along the lines of expecting the winner to embrace the runner-up's key platform, or else.

Yes, Bernie hits his ceiling and prevents Warren from taking off, but at the same time Biden becomes the mainstream standardbearer almost exclusively on "OMG we need the safest choice possible". I dunno about that. The mainstreamers have better be aware that their offer DOES need to contain specific proposals of things that will be different. Having the allegedly liberal party be just more humanitarian pro-corporatists is what got us where we are. Having the priorities of the Nation's well-being hinge on keeping the Dow going up is not any better just because your side will want race/gender diversity in a gun-free boardroom with onsite daycare.

Also as Wesley Clark mentions, another loser is the concept of some sleeping monster youth vote that can turn everything on its head. But maybe that can be turned around into a realization that you have to rise in the ranks, not just stand there and say "we're morally right! yield to us!".

And as to the other matter...
Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 22203419)
This is what happens when you treat health care like a market good.

And you get people in the frame of mind that if they "pay for a first class seat" then they will be safe.

Me, this current situation is a problem because by the time the health care providers are back to handling normal cases that "could wait", I may no longer have my first class ticket, and the things that "can wait" could get worse in the meantime...

DrDeth 03-22-2020 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole (Post 22203071)
Do you realize that all first world countries (except the US) have socialized medicine and they also have better health outcomes than the US does?

If you want the best medical care for your family M4A is the way to go.

Sure, they have UHC.

They dont have ANYTHING like Sanders plan, which covers everything (including dental, etc), outlaws private insurance, will bankrupt an entire industry, lay off tens of thousands of workers, etc.


You can have UHC without sanders gold-plated Cadillac plan.

Sander's misleadingly named "M4A" (it has nothing whatsoever to do with medicare) is too big, too expensive and too much of a change. REAL Medicare for all would work.

Biden is proposing a plan where anyone who wants a public option can have it. It could pass Congress.

Sander's crazy plan could never, EVER pass Congress, not even with a solid Dem Majority.

So it's not sanders gold-plated Cadillac plan or nothing at all.

Wesley Clark 03-22-2020 02:56 PM

There is nothing stopping blue states from enacting medicare for all. But they won't do it either.

Vermont tried, but found it was too expensive (which was short sighted, as M4A would reduce medical costs by 25% over a decade).

Nothing is stopping deeply blue states like CT, CA, RI, etc from enacting a state level medicare for all system.

But if in states where democrats control 70-80% of the state legislature seats and the governorship wont' do it, theres no real chance that it'll happen on a national level where the democrats are lucky to control 51% of the legislature seats.

RivkahChaya 03-22-2020 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22203095)
Best, and easiest, health care I ever got was entirely government run - when I was active duty in the Navy. If anyone ever tells you that government run health care always sucks, they obviously never served in the military. The VA needs a lot of improvement, but active duty care is utterly fantastic, with no worries or bureaucracy to deal with. Just great care, already paid for by the government.

Hear, hear! It shouldn't be M4A, it should be "Tri-Care for all!"

When DH was on active duty, and I had a baby on Tri-Care, we didn't pay a penny, and it was a very complicated birth. I also got a 5-day hospital stay.

dalej42 03-22-2020 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wesley Clark (Post 22203829)
As a Sanders supporter, I'd say Sanders.

He won the first 3 primary states, now has no chance against a candidate who was written off months ago. He went from a revolution to barely pulling in 30-40% of the vote.

Also its becoming clear that a lot of Sanders support in 2016 wasn't because people liked his ideas, it was because they hated Hillary Clinton.

Also people keep making very valid criticisms of Sanders by telling him 'how will you get these laws passed, how will you pay for them' and he has no real answers.

Also Sanders did worse in tons of states this time than he did last time. Including his home state of vermont. He won 85% of the vote in 2016 and barely 50% in 2020.

Also the youth vote didn't show up to help him get elected, and some studies showed him turning off purple voters in the suburbs.

I would say a big winner this primary season though was the concept that you can't buy an election. Bloomberg flooded the airwaves with hundreds of millions of dollars and barely won any delegates. That is a good sign for democracy that money doesn't necessarily equal victory.

Pete Buttigieg won Iowa.
Bernie Sanders won New Hampshire. Still, it was such a narrow win that he ended up tied with Pete for the most delegates in NH, making Pete the delegate leader he donít into Nevada
Thatís not the type of win Sanders was expecting nor what he needed.

dalej42 03-22-2020 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22204145)
Pete Buttigieg won Iowa.
Bernie Sanders won New Hampshire. Still, it was such a narrow win that he ended up tied with Pete for the most delegates in NH, making Pete the delegate leader he donít into Nevada
Thatís not the type of win Sanders was expecting nor what he needed.

Damn these timeouts!

Should read Ďmaking Pete the delegate leader heading into Nevadaí

Saintly Loser 03-23-2020 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22203111)
I don't care about those people beyond Medicaid that the ACA gives them.

I care about my family.

That is what you socialists will never understand. Markets discover price relevance.

This is fucking inhuman. Sorry about the pit-appropriate language, but it is.

We're done. We, meaning this nation, this society, this community (not that it's a community anymore, if it ever was).

You know what? I have a family, too. Three kids and a wife. And I support universal health care. Call it Medicare for all, if you like.

Not being a fucking ostrich with its head in the sand, I've seen quite a bit of the world (not to mention having married into a Canadian family). UHC works. It works better than what we have.

And if the consumers of luxury health care won't surrender a bit of it for the good of all, well, too bad.

You know what? You can work to make health care available to all, now, or you can have your Cadillac care taken away from you later, by force.

That's not a threat, that's just a prediction, based on having read a book or two about history.

Saintly Loser 03-23-2020 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole (Post 22203281)
Ok...who did I miss?

It may be true (well, it is true) that first-world countries generally do not have socialized medicine (the UK being the exception).

They do all have some form of socialized insurance (with the Canadian model being my favorite). Very different thing.

digs 03-23-2020 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22203165)
And once again I don't give a fucking rat's ass about "total populations". I care about the micro-economics of my family. You socialists will never understand that.

Wow, I knew you weren't a shining light, but now you'vestolen the highlights...

Ravenman 03-23-2020 02:08 PM

The answer is clearly Beto OíRourke.

He came into the contest with a rock star image that approached Obama in 2007. Then he folded faster than an origami master.

Wesley Clark 03-23-2020 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintly Loser (Post 22205596)
This is fucking inhuman. Sorry about the pit-appropriate language, but it is.

We're done. We, meaning this nation, this society, this community (not that it's a community anymore, if it ever was).

You know what? I have a family, too. Three kids and a wife. And I support universal health care. Call it Medicare for all, if you like.

Not being a fucking ostrich with its head in the sand, I've seen quite a bit of the world (not to mention having married into a Canadian family). UHC works. It works better than what we have.

And if the consumers of luxury health care won't surrender a bit of it for the good of all, well, too bad.

You know what? You can work to make health care available to all, now, or you can have your Cadillac care taken away from you later, by force.

That's not a threat, that's just a prediction, based on having read a book or two about history.

America is heavily divided by race, class, religion, ideology, etc. Its why we can't get large scale social welfare programs up and running, because Americans hate each other too much. When social security was started, they had to structure it so it excluded black people by excluding fields black people worked in like agricultural and domestic work. FDR and Truman wanted to push for a single payer health care plan, but southern democrats (back then the south was almost all democrats, before LBJ) opposed it because they didn't want to integrate hospitals or give health care to black people.

Its just a shitty side effect of being American.

Having said that, we can have universal coverage and still have options for cadillac health insurance coverage. Australia has a single payer system where you can purchase private insurance on top of the single payer plan. It seems to work there.

The Netherlands and Switzerland have a multipayer UHC system where you can purchase cadillac insurance if you want to spend the money.

Velocity 03-23-2020 02:43 PM

Progressive leftism lost in a self-fulfilling way. When Democrats clamored for Biden, saying that "only a centrist can beat Trump," this therefore guaranteed that progressives would be perceived as unelectable. Ditto for women. "A woman can't beat Trump," ergo, a woman became unelectable even if she wasn't originally.

JohnT 03-23-2020 03:05 PM

As one who sells health insurance, the number of elderly people who pine for their private coverage over Medicare is 0. Zero. None. Nada.

We just don't see it. What we do see is the opposite - "My company has me (the owner) on their health insurance rolls, but I turn 65 in X months. Can we price this years' premium without me on it?"

RTFirefly 03-23-2020 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenman (Post 22205846)
The answer is clearly Beto OíRourke.

He came into the contest with a rock star image that approached Obama in 2007. Then he folded faster than an origami master.

Damn, I'd forgotten about Beto!

But I think we have a winner here! A year ago today, Beto was at 8.4% in the RCP average, trailing only Biden, Bernie, and Kamala Harris. And for a good deal of the next month, he was in third, ahead of Harris and trailing just Biden and Bernie.

And then he was nowhere. From rising star to has-been, all but overnight.

RTFirefly 03-23-2020 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22204165)
Should read Ďmaking Pete the delegate leader heading into Nevadaí

You keep on going on about how your hero won the Grapefruit League. Hell, just the first half of the Grapefruit League, not even the whole thing.

septimus 03-23-2020 03:53 PM

When the U.S.A. emerges from the Covid-19 crisis, I hope that there will be new feelings of community, and new paradigms for American society going forward.

After the Black Death in the 14th century, some European countries had a reduction in inequality, partly due to the shared experience of seeing peasant and aristocratic corpses piled up next to each other.

Thus there could be a silver lining in this dark cloud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden
( I would have been forced to vote for Trump to not jeopardize my family's excellent private health insurance for the DMV version).

Or no silver lining. You may call me a dreamer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 22203419)
People routinely die, here in the United States of America, precisely because it's decided to be a "market society" with respect to health care, which is extremely unsuited for being a market good....

This is what happens when you treat health care like a market good.

:confused: Mr. Arden presumably is in an excellent financial situation. He is delighted that health care is a market good: He (or his insurer) can outbid other Americans for whatever ventilators, etc. he might require.

Hari Seldon 03-23-2020 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintly Loser (Post 22205612)
It may be true (well, it is true) that first-world countries generally do not have socialized medicine (the UK being the exception).

They do all have some form of socialized insurance (with the Canadian model being my favorite). Very different thing.

I am just going to comment on your post and ignore all the pitting this thread has degenerated to.

Canada does have socialized insurance, with each province running its own scheme. But hospitals get an annual block grant and have to make do with that. Doctors are private and get a fee for each act they perform but based on a provincial fee set by the province. Unless they choose to practice outside the plan, they must accept those fees. If they practice outside the plan they set their own fees and cannot get anything from the government. In other words their practice is either entirely in the plan or entirely outside. (There is an exception if a doctor comes to an accident scene and renders emergency service.) At least that's how Quebec works. If you see a doctor for treatment, no money changes hands. Nothing. He is allowed to charge for filling out forms, say for a driver's licence for example, but that is the only exception. If you go to a hospital, you never see a bill. Ever. There is no dental care, which is a big lacuna.

The other serious problem is a shortage of doctors. I have using one family physician for 40 years and he is now semi-retired. When he does finally quit, I don't know what I will do. There is a clinic about 1/4 mile from my apartment. While they will give emergency care if you need it, they are not accepting any new patients into their system. I do not know what I will do. They do not even maintain a wait list.

So far, it has worked well for me and my family, but I can see a future problem.

Oh, and there is also a provincial drug insurance that has both a deductible and a co-pay, but beyond a certain amount per month, you pay nothing. They negotiated strongly with the drug companies, unlike the US which is forbidden by an act of congress to negotiate prices but must pay list.

DrDeth 03-23-2020 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 22205960)
As one who sells health insurance, the number of elderly people who pine for their private coverage over Medicare is 0. Zero. None. Nada.

."

Now it is one.

My private insurance, since I am a Govt retiree is better than Medicare and cheaper, and for a small amount extra I can cover my wife.

So yeah, I signed for Part A, Free, but declined parts B, etc.

CarnalK 03-23-2020 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 22206007)
You keep on going on about how your hero won the Grapefruit League. Hell, just the first half of the Grapefruit League, not even the whole thing.

You started a thread your own self about how predictive winning the first couple of states was. Don't pull this "grapefruit league" stuff on us because you don't like Buttigieg.

Saintly Loser 03-24-2020 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hari Seldon (Post 22206349)
I am just going to comment on your post and ignore all the pitting this thread has degenerated to.

Canada does have socialized insurance, with each province running its own scheme. But hospitals get an annual block grant and have to make do with that. Doctors are private and get a fee for each act they perform but based on a provincial fee set by the province. Unless they choose to practice outside the plan, they must accept those fees. If they practice outside the plan they set their own fees and cannot get anything from the government. In other words their practice is either entirely in the plan or entirely outside. (There is an exception if a doctor comes to an accident scene and renders emergency service.) At least that's how Quebec works. If you see a doctor for treatment, no money changes hands. Nothing. He is allowed to charge for filling out forms, say for a driver's licence for example, but that is the only exception. If you go to a hospital, you never see a bill. Ever. There is no dental care, which is a big lacuna.

The other serious problem is a shortage of doctors. I have using one family physician for 40 years and he is now semi-retired. When he does finally quit, I don't know what I will do. There is a clinic about 1/4 mile from my apartment. While they will give emergency care if you need it, they are not accepting any new patients into their system. I do not know what I will do. They do not even maintain a wait list.

So far, it has worked well for me and my family, but I can see a future problem.

Oh, and there is also a provincial drug insurance that has both a deductible and a co-pay, but beyond a certain amount per month, you pay nothing. They negotiated strongly with the drug companies, unlike the US which is forbidden by an act of congress to negotiate prices but must pay list.

Thanks for the details. I'm fairly familiar with the Canadian system (for an American, anyway), having married into a Canadian family, a family that has had, unfortunately, extreme medical needs.

I've spent quite a bit of time in Canada (mostly in NL), met many, many people, and in all that time I've met exactly one person who would trade his system for the American system.

Saintly Loser 03-24-2020 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 22206389)
Now it is one.

My private insurance, since I am a Govt retiree is better than Medicare and cheaper, and for a small amount extra I can cover my wife.

So yeah, I signed for Part A, Free, but declined parts B, etc.

My father, also a government retiree, elected to keep his private insurance upon retirement. Like you, he does have Part A.

He chose that because his wife was, at the time of his retirement, very, very sick (terminally sick, as it turned out), and they thought it best not to change horses in midstream, so to speak.

Now, some years later, it's turning out that Medicare would be much, much better for him. He's in a "memory care" residence, and everything there is geared towards Medicare. The doctors there won't even take his insurance.

Not second-guessing your choice, but in the long run, that was the wrong choice for my father. Everyone's circumstances are different, of course.

dalej42 03-24-2020 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 22206007)
You keep on going on about how your hero won the Grapefruit League. Hell, just the first half of the Grapefruit League, not even the whole thing.

Perhaps you know nothing about baseball. The Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary counted for real delegates. They arenít spring training games.

Derleth 03-24-2020 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linden Arden (Post 22203111)
That is what you socialists will never understand. Markets discover price relevance.

I'm a Free Marketeer, and trying to apply this thinking to healthcare is a crock of ripe shit.

If you have a heart attack, you need care now. You can't shop around. You can't price things out. You get care now or you die now. The market can't function in that scenario. You are at the mercy of the monopoly of St. Whichever Fucking Hospital You End Up At.

Even if you get a longer-term health condition, you still aren't in a free market because of your inability to negotiate with health insurers and hospitals and clinicians on your own. You're a health insurance consumer, and your money means absolutely jack fucking shit when it comes to which treatments are covered and how much they cost. You might as well try to convince Ford to make a new kind of car, all on your lonesome.

Healthcare isn't a free market in this country. It's also one big market failure. If you don't understand those things, you don't understand enough to debate me.

RTFirefly 03-24-2020 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22207559)
Perhaps you know nothing about baseball. The Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary counted for real delegates. They arenít spring training games.

They might as well be, in terms of delegate impact - especially given the delegate lead you're boasting about. What was it, a whole two delegates?

And then on March 3, 1,344 delegates got voted on. What's a difference of two delegates matter, going into that? It's the difference between a spoonful of water and Lake Michigan.

But feel free to continue making a big deal out of practically nothing, on account of your ridiculous hero worship of a small-town mayor who desperately wants to be a big shot. And I will feel free to continue mocking you when you do so. :D

RTFirefly 03-24-2020 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalej42 (Post 22207559)
Perhaps you know nothing about baseball.

I know a great deal about baseball. The season is 162 games long. For a team to have as insignificant a lead in a pennant race as the delegate lead toward the nomination your hero had that you boast so much about, a team would have to be 1-0 after one game in a thousand game season.

CarnalK 03-24-2020 03:44 PM

You're a smart, earnest guy. That's why it's so annoying when you're purposely full of shit. The Grapefruit league has zero impact on the regular season. It's not the first couple of games of the regular season. Since you know a great deal about baseball and all.

Atamasama 03-24-2020 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 22208232)
I know a great deal about baseball. The season is 162 games long. For a team to have as insignificant a lead in a pennant race as the delegate lead toward the nomination your hero had that you boast so much about, a team would have to be 1-0 after one game in a thousand game season.

Itís maybe equivalent to getting the first out in the first inning of the season.


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