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-   -   Is eight hours too long to go without being offered a drink of water? (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=867236)

septimus 12-14-2018 11:51 AM

Is eight hours too long to go without being offered a drink of water?
 
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/13/67662...patrol-custody

Quote:

A 7-year-old Guatemalan girl who crossed the southern border into the United States illegally earlier this month died of dehydration and shock after being apprehended by the U.S. Border Patrol in New Mexico....

Eight hours after the girl and her father were taken into custody, she began having seizures and her body temperature was measured at 105.7 degrees by emergency medical technicians.

The girl "had not eaten or had any water for several days," Nick Miroff of The Post told NPR's Morning Edition on Friday.

The girl was flown by helicopter to a hospital in El Paso, Texas. She was revived after going into cardiac arrest but died less than 24 hours after being transported to the facility.

"On behalf of the Department of Homeland Security, our sincerest condolences go out to the family of the child," the spokesperson said. "Border Patrol agents took every possible step to save the child's life under the most trying of circumstances. As fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, we empathize with the loss of any child."
Quote:

Originally Posted by https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/seven-year-old-girl-died-border-patrol-water.html

Authorities waited a week to admit a 7-year-old girl died in their care and still haven’t answered where she was held or if she was given food or water.

White House Deputy Press Secretary Hogan Gidley blamed "the needless death" on Democratic Congressmen.

Yes, this 7 year-old child was a heinous criminal or terrorist, but shouldn't she have been offered a glass of water?

The Tooth 12-14-2018 11:53 AM

Or intravenous fluids.

carnivorousplant 12-14-2018 11:59 AM

Are mean people attracted to this sort of job, or are they just very stupid?

bobot 12-14-2018 11:59 AM

Is eight hours too long to go without being offered a drink of water?

Yes it is. I would expect that anyone with any sense at all would offer water rather immediately in such a case. Also, in any other case where someone was taken into custody at the border.

running coach 12-14-2018 12:00 PM

She was without food or water for several days. It should have been blindingly obvious to the most untrained person that she was in trouble. There's no way her temp went from normal to almost 106 in eight hours.

Darren Garrison 12-14-2018 12:24 PM

In this particular case, it looks like a nearly dead child finished dying, and probably would have died no matter who picked them up. I'm no fan of Trump or his goons, but if you drag a child through the desert for several days with no food or water expecting a last-second miracle recovery, that death is on you.

Gatopescado 12-14-2018 12:33 PM

nm

EscAlaMike 12-14-2018 12:38 PM

It's a tragedy that all of these Central Americans are risking so much just to come here.

Are they being lied to about what's waiting for them in the good ol' USA?

I was speaking to an immigrant from Germany recently. She came here (legally) when she was in her 20s I believe. She claims that she was always told that as soon as you arrived on American soil, you would instantly become rich. The mechanics of how this would happen, I didn't ask, nor did she say.

Do many people in other countries really believe that? This lady wasn't lying, she really believed it.

manson1972 12-14-2018 12:41 PM

Worse than that, people that actually LIVE in the US think that everyone who crosses the border illegal immediately gets tens of thousands of dollars and every service you can imagine provided to them by good ol' American tax payers.

bucketybuck 12-14-2018 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EscAlaMike (Post 21378181)

Do many people in other countries really believe that? This lady wasn't lying, she really believed it.

Of course they don't believe that, especially not in fucking Germany for gods sake, stop being stupid.

EscAlaMike 12-14-2018 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucketybuck (Post 21378190)
Of course they don't believe that, especially not in fucking Germany for gods sake, stop being stupid.

I'm being stupid? It's what she told me. Maybe she's stupid, but she wasn't lying to me. Also, she came to the US back in the 60s or 70s.

Gatopescado 12-14-2018 12:46 PM

nm again

Inigo Montoya 12-14-2018 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 21378086)
Are mean people attracted to this sort of job, or are they just very stupid?

Why the false dichotomy? :D
But IME, there's a fair bit of overlap when it comes to mean and very stupid.

BigT 12-14-2018 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378150)
In this particular case, it looks like a nearly dead child finished dying, and probably would have died no matter who picked them up. I'm no fan of Trump or his goons, but if you drag a child through the desert for several days with no food or water expecting a last-second miracle recovery, that death is on you.

I don't see how you know this. She was alive when they got there, and she was hungry and dehydrated. How do you know that getting her fluids and then nutrition wouldn't have saved her?

I see no reason to assume things that in any way exonerate Trump. That they didn't even try is still damning.

Left Hand of Dorkness 12-14-2018 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378150)
In this particular case, it looks like a nearly dead child finished dying, and probably would have died no matter who picked them up. .

Show me that this girl received significant first aid and was transferred to a hospital within an hour of being detained, and you know my outrage will evaporate. Show me that ICE shrugged their shoulders and said, "She's gonna die anyway, whaddya gonna do?" and I'll be even more pissed.

What it looks like is incompetence fueled by racist hostility toward border crossers.

Great Antibob 12-14-2018 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378150)
I'm no fan of Trump or his goons, but if you drag a child through the desert for several days with no food or water expecting a last-second miracle recovery, that death is on you.

Maybe, but there's a difference between offering some basic fucking human comfort to a dying person and kicking her when she's down.

Guess which one covers the failure to offer a drink of water for several hours?

Buck Godot 12-14-2018 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378150)
In this particular case, it looks like a nearly dead child finished dying, and probably would have died no matter who picked them up. I'm no fan of Trump or his goons, but if you drag a child through the desert for several days with no food or water expecting a last-second miracle recovery, that death is on you.

If she was in as bad shape as you say, then why did the Immigration agents wait 8 hours to do anything? When coming across someone who hasn't had food or water for days your response should be to get them food, water and medical attention ASAP, not "Well, they've been without food and water for a couple of days so what's eight more hours?"

Colibri 12-14-2018 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378150)
In this particular case, it looks like a nearly dead child finished dying, and probably would have died no matter who picked them up. I'm no fan of Trump or his goons, but if you drag a child through the desert for several days with no food or water expecting a last-second miracle recovery, that death is on you.

Thank you for your expert medical opinion. Nothing in the links actually verifies that that was the case.

It's impossible to determine the the exact facts of the case from the information in the links in the OP. But even if her caretaker was hadn't taken proper care of her, once she was in custody the authorities bear some responsibility for her welfare.

dropzone 12-14-2018 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colibri (Post 21378221)
But even if her caretaker was hadn't taken proper care of her, once she was in custody the authorities bear some responsibility for her welfare.

Shit, they even feed guys on death row.

steronz 12-14-2018 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Godot (Post 21378216)
If she was in as bad shape as you say, then why did the Immigration agents wait 8 hours to do anything? When coming across someone who hasn't had food or water for days your response should be to get them food, water and medical attention ASAP, not "Well, they've been without food and water for a couple of days so what's eight more hours?"

Based on the WaPo reporting I read, we don't know if "Immigration agents waited hours to do anything." We actually know next to nothing about the specifics of this girl's death, and I'm not sure why anyone's ready to lynch the ICE agents involved who had the unenviable task of processing and triaging 163 migrants with who knows how many health issues spread among them. Maybe an investigation will ultimately reveal they were pure evil, but until then...


I think the anger in this case shouldn't be directed toward ICE (yet), but towards US immigration policy that continues to push the downtrodden into increasingly dangerous situations. Border fencing and walls in populated areas and shutting down checkpoints has forced immigrants into making dangerous desert crossings. Thousands are estimated to have died, this 7 year old is just one more victim of cruel and heartless policies towards Hispanic immigrants.

Darren Garrison 12-14-2018 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Antibob (Post 21378211)
Maybe, but there's a difference between offering some basic fucking human comfort to a dying person and kicking her when she's down.

Guess which one covers the failure to offer a drink of water for several hours?


The quoted article doesn't say that they didn't offer water, the quoted article says that they haven't addressed the issue one way or the other.

Beckdawrek 12-14-2018 01:33 PM

The fact remains, the girl died while in US custody. Hell yeah they are responsible.

RickJay 12-14-2018 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colibri (Post 21378221)
Thank you for your expert medical opinion. Nothing in the links actually verifies that that was the case.

It's impossible to determine the the exact facts of the case from the information in the links in the OP. But even if her caretaker was hadn't taken proper care of her, once she was in custody the authorities bear some responsibility for her welfare.

The thing is, that is absolutely true... we don't know. There is in fact no evidence presented thus far that the child was denied water by border authorities.

All we know is that she must have been in some degree of distress when first taken into custody; a person doesn't die of dehydration in eight hours. To what extent she was in visible distress, or whether her parent was asked about her health, or if her parent knew she was ill, or if she was given water or food, we simply do not know.

steronz is of course absolutely right; if one looks at this on a strategic scale, the decision to close checkpoints and shoot teargas at people inevitably drives people to try to cross at more remote places, which inevitably results in this sort of thing happening. That does not, however, mean anyone in the employ of the US government directly killed this poor little girl at the place she was found.

rat avatar 12-14-2018 01:42 PM

Lets be clear, the US border patrol is well known for destroying Humanitarian supplies, they have no concern if these people die. Why would they care any more about people they have in custody except to protect their own asses?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...mexico-arizona

History will view this as another low point in Americas history.

Sunny Daze 12-14-2018 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek (Post 21378278)
The fact remains, the girl died while in US custody. Hell yeah they are responsible.

Yes, this.

Darren Garrison 12-14-2018 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colibri (Post 21378221)
Thank you for your expert medical opinion.


Okay, maybe one of the doctors on the board can chime in--what are the chances of survival for a child in septic shock with a 106 degree fever that is hours away from death if they recieve hospital treatment a few hours sooner than they actually did?

Left Hand of Dorkness 12-14-2018 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378433)
Okay, maybe one of the doctors on the board can chime in--what are the chances of survival for a child in septic shock with a 106 degree fever that is hours away from death if they recieve hospital treatment a few hours sooner than they actually did?

Holy shit, dude. What kind of dead-soul motherfucker would calculate that way?

If the girl's chance of survival at that point is 1 in a thousand, you take her to the fucking hospital.

Christ almighty.

carnivorousplant 12-14-2018 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness (Post 21378435)
Holy shit, dude. What kind of dead-soul motherfucker would calculate that way?

If the girl's chance of survival at that point is 1 in a thousand, you take her to the fucking hospital.

Christ almighty.

Indeed.
We are curious if the girl could have lived if she had received medical attention.

Darren Garrison 12-14-2018 03:20 PM

When they noticed how bad she was they did take her to the fucking hospital. She was "airlifted to the Providence Children’s Hospital in El Paso." Where she died despite of intensive medical care.

carnivorousplant 12-14-2018 04:38 PM

NPR just reported that ICE didn't know and were not told she was ill until her Father said that she was vomiting.

carnivorousplant 12-14-2018 04:45 PM

I'm of the opinion that ICE are assholes but not responsible for the girl's death.

The Librarian 12-14-2018 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 21378614)
I'm of the opinion that ICE are assholes but not responsible for the girl's death.

Fuck you. Fuck ICE. Fuck the USA. With a fucking cactus.

If you arrest someone; you “take them in your custody”; you are literally responsible for them. That is what the words mean.

carnivorousplant 12-14-2018 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Librarian (Post 21378636)
If you arrest someone; you “take them in your custody”; you are literally responsible for them. That is what the words mean.

You have a point. I wish her Father had told them that she was ill.

Penfeather 12-14-2018 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378150)
In this particular case, it looks like a nearly dead child finished dying, and probably would have died no matter who picked them up.

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

HMS Irruncible 12-14-2018 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378150)
In this particular case, it looks like a nearly dead child finished dying, and probably would have died no matter who picked them up. I'm no fan of Trump or his goons,

but I bet they'd love you. This kind of uninformed benefit of the doubt is the wind beneath their leathery wings.

nearwildheaven 12-14-2018 05:45 PM

No matter what your opinion may be of Mexicans, migrants, etc., this was a CHILD. Even if they couldn't tell she was sick, which I find doubtful, they should have offered her food and water, even if she had difficulty taking it, and then gotten her medical attention.

That this is the anniversary of Sandy Hook, where some 7-year-olds also died needlessly, has not escaped me.

Darren Garrison 12-14-2018 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penfeather (Post 21378682)
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."


Please. :rolleyes:



You don't develop the conditions for septic shock from sitting in custody for 8 hours without a glass of water. What I'm fucking saying is that if there was a fully-staffed pediatric hospital 5 sitting five feet from the border that the father walked into the moment he stepped across the border 8 hours earlier, then it is still a pretty damn good chance that a dehydrated child in septic shock with a 106 degree fever would have died no matter how much attention she got. She spent a week crossing the desert without food or water. She spent 24 hours under the intensive care of medical professionals. Blaming the 8 hours between for her death is pure politics.



How much after she was brought in with 162 other people would ICE have had to airlift her to the hospital before the death wasn't "their fault?" Would it have been their fault if she was there in septic shock for 5 minutes before calling the helicopter?

Darren Garrison 12-14-2018 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nearwildheaven (Post 21378694)
Even if they couldn't tell she was sick, which I find doubtful, they should have offered her food and water, even if she had difficulty taking it, and then gotten her medical attention.


Nobody has said that they weren't offered food and water.

alphaboi867 12-14-2018 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 21378086)
Are mean people attracted to this sort of job, or are they just very stupid?

Yes.

Left Hand of Dorkness 12-14-2018 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378714)
Nobody has said that they weren't offered food and water.

Did ICE pick up people who had just crossed a desert? Did they perform an adequate medical check on the people they were picking up?

Again: if they checked everyone out and began offering medical aid to the girl as soon as they could reasonably tell she was in bad health, they performed well. But from all appearances they didn't.

At best, this is gross negligence.

carnivorousplant 12-14-2018 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphaboi867 (Post 21378831)
Yes.

In the Wagner opera cycle Der Ring Das Neibelungen, in a translation from German to Italian to English, Wotan asks Albreich, "Are you malicious or merely insane?" I discussed this with a friend who believed it was the most safe to assume that an opponent was malicious.

kayaker 12-14-2018 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek (Post 21378278)
The fact remains, the girl died while in US custody. Hell yeah they are responsible.

They = We.

We allowed this to happen. We killed this little girl.

Colibri 12-14-2018 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21378706)
You don't develop the conditions for septic shock from sitting in custody for 8 hours without a glass of water. What I'm fucking saying is that if there was a fully-staffed pediatric hospital 5 sitting five feet from the border that the father walked into the moment he stepped across the border 8 hours earlier, then it is still a pretty damn good chance that a dehydrated child in septic shock with a 106 degree fever would have died no matter how much attention she got. She spent a week crossing the desert without food or water. She spent 24 hours under the intensive care of medical professionals. Blaming the 8 hours between for her death is pure politics.

Again, you're reading a lot into this that isn't in the linked article. And the fact that this is your immediate response indicates you are a flaming asshole.

Dacien 12-15-2018 12:26 AM

After reading some of the politicization of this tragedy, I'm struck by how many people seem to be under the impression that the election of Donald Trump transformed DHS and Border Patrol agents into Orange Minions, suddenly callous and unfeeling, willing to let a little girl die because the racist and hateful aura of the president perverted their very being.

These employees have been working for years, many of them through multiple presidencies. The processing of people who cross the border illegally is probably a lot like any government-run detainment process: slow and crowded. It could have happened under any presidency. Indeed, it probably has, it just never made the news.

Darren Garrison 12-15-2018 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colibri (Post 21379074)
Again, you're reading a lot into this that isn't in the linked article. And the fact that this is your immediate response indicates you are a flaming asshole.


I'm believing something that the article does say--septic shock. That is something that doesn't develop in a few hours and something that has a mortality rate of 40% or more with medical attention. And that is with someone who isn't already starving and dehydrated.

BigT 12-15-2018 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dacien (Post 21379094)
After reading some of the politicization of this tragedy, I'm struck by how many people seem to be under the impression that the election of Donald Trump transformed DHS and Border Patrol agents into Orange Minions, suddenly callous and unfeeling, willing to let a little girl die because the racist and hateful aura of the president perverted their very being.

These employees have been working for years, many of them through multiple presidencies. The processing of people who cross the border illegally is probably a lot like any government-run detainment process: slow and crowded. It could have happened under any presidency. Indeed, it probably has, it just never made the news.

What the fuck is your deal? You say that you hate Trump, but time and time again I see you pushing the pro-Trump narrative, pulling ideas from pro-Trump websites.

Trump is the one who changed our refugee policy to make it harder to accept people. He's the one who changed the policy so as to create the child concentration camps. He is the first president in my lifetime who has been explicitly anti-immigrant. He's the one who keeps on treating these people as our enemies. He's the one who has made it where refugees try to sneak in, going to more remote locations where this sort of thing can happen.

So we have plenty of reason to think this is something caused by Trump. What evidence do you have that it is not? Not "I bet this happened under previous presidents." That's not evidence. That's just making an assumption to defend Trump. If it happened before, show actual evidence.

And be careful with the whataboutism/tu quoque. Even if you find such evidence, you will not prove that this is not wrong, and that a good President should not be actually trying to fix these problems. All you can do is establish that the problem predates Trump.

And don't forget that you have to establish that it was as much a problem as before. Because the default is that Trump's policies he admits are designed to hurt refugees and immigrants will in fact hurt refugees and immigrants.

And if you are just a Trump supporter or Russian troll who is trying the "I'm a Republican but I hate Trump" thing while sneaking in pro-Trump stuff, don't bother. We will detect that, no matter how you try to couch it.

Darren Garrison 12-15-2018 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT (Post 21379107)
He's the one who has made it where refugees try to sneak in, going to more remote locations where this sort of thing can happen.


Actually, that was Bill Clinton.

Monty 12-15-2018 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible (Post 21378691)
but I bet they'd love you. This kind of uninformed benefit of the doubt is the wind beneath their leathery wings.


OIf course they love DG. DG says he isn't a fan of the trumper goons, but then he goes and talks exactly like they do.

BigT 12-15-2018 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21379101)
I'm believing something that the article does say--septic shock. That is something that doesn't develop in a few hours and something that has a mortality rate of 40% or more with medical attention. And that is with someone who isn't already starving and dehydrated.

No, you aren't. You got "septic shock" from the article, yes, but you went beyond that to make the claim that the child would have died no matter what.

She was reported not to have any of the symptoms of sepsis when she first arrived. If this is false, then they did a bad job, and that's a problem. If this is true, then she was not hopeless when she arrived.

All that is required is that they know she had not eaten or drank in a few days to know that they needed to feed her or give her fluids. If she refuses food directly, that is a reason to put her on an IV to try and save her.

If you'd just said that she was clearly in a bad way and that even treatment may not have helped, that'd be fine. You could say you're not sure.

But you decided to say for certain, and to turn around and blame the parent for trying to bring his kid. You know, the shit that "Trump and his goons" do. Always being sure it's not their fault, and blaming the immigrants.

I'm willing to accept this may have been a situation where nothing they could have done would help. But it also seems to me that they didn't try. Maybe it's all due to an accident. But I would never actively choose to assume without proof that any of this is the case.

Dacien 12-15-2018 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT (Post 21379107)
What the fuck is your deal? You say that you hate Trump, but time and time again I see you pushing the pro-Trump narrative, pulling ideas from pro-Trump websites.

\

First of all, I've never said I "hate Trump". Secondly, I've never pulled from "Pro-Trump" websites, unless you count National Review, which I cite often and, currently, has on it's front page "Republicans, Don’t Fool Yourselves — Donald Trump Is in Serious Trouble".

I'm pro-truth from a conservative angle.


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