I have some questions about the guitar (and these ones aren't as out there as the one about guitar duels) and music in general which I've been wondering about ever since I tried to teach myself guitar awhile back (and gave up because I'm lazy (and the strings badly needed replacement: they buzzed even when you played a shallow open string)).
I know precious little about musical theory (I know that the definition of music varies from culture to culture and person to person, yet music is defined from the most cautious point of view as "organized sound throughout time"). This definition, although exact, leaves no space for key factors of musical theory, such as melody, harmony, rhythm, tone, pitch, intervals, and timbre (and although I speak of them, I could only give the vaguest definitions of all of them). And by this definition, organized speech could be considered music. So herein lies my first question: could somebody give me a better explanation of what music is, as opposed to an exact definition? And if nobody can provide me with an explanation, can somebody at least point me towards a book which covers the basic terms of musical theory (and I don't mean just how to read sheet music). I'm planning on taking mandolin lessons later this year, and a good idea of what music wouldn't hurt. Send this as a message if you don't want to discuss it here.
Next, why does the fifth fret method go 5-5-5-4-5? I understand this has something to do with intervals and getting a richer tone, but an explanation would help.
Third (this one's not as complex as the others), is a seven-string guitar tuned like an average guitar with one string just higher or lower in pitch, or is it tuned like a different albeit similar instrument?

- I tend to broadly think of music as "organized sound created with the intent to evoke sensory response" - i.e., man-made sounds designed to tickle our ears.

- To my knowledge, the tuning of a guitar, which I believe you are referring to, was started because it was "close enough to everything," i.e., facilitated the easiest fingerings across keys, although you still end up favoring A and E, as discussed recently.

- For shredders, they will often had a high A string; for death metallers, they will usually go low and add a low B string. Tuning otherwise stays the same - although with metal, that usually means a dropped D tuning or the whole tuning dropped a step or three.

Hm. Raising and shortening the saddle seems to have maybe done it. MwNNRules: No idea.

As for a definition of music, I'm willin' to give it a shot, but... maaaybe I'll let someone else handle it first. It's probably easier than defining jazz. (Man, if you gotta ask you'll never know.)

Random question: How the heck do you drop a key or three (eg, drop D) without the strings going all loose or... all tight and snapping. I thought it was just fingering lower on the neck, and using a finger to barre things, but I'm guessing not? (or a capo)

Oh - and I got to play a 1941 Martin D-18 and a 1953 Fender Telecaster today...

Tangential gear score: we needed another PA cab for a drum monitor. I managed to find a 1979 Randall RPA-4 (4x10 tower) at a local thrift store for $50. Awesome. Everything works perfectly. No shredded speakers.

I tried it out with my Peavey Classic 30, thinking to go for a serious old-school vibe. Unfortunately, it behaves as you'd expect a PA cab to behave - a little harsh on the top end. Not TOO bad, but a deal-killer for me. Ah well, we needed the extra PA output anyway.

:droooooool:

Thanks for responding.
1. Better than my own definition because it mentions what music is made for: getting a reaction.
2. Okay. Actually your answer was probably worthy of more than just "okay", but I wouldn't be able to comment here due to lack of knowledge regarding the guitar's pitch.
3. Cool. This one leads me to another question, which I'll put at the bottom of my post.
Yeah, I'd definitely rather define music than a particular style of music. I wouldn't know where to start: once I looked up "rock and roll" in the dictionary and the given definition was something like "a style of music influenced by blues and folk music and characterized by accentuated rhythms". From an exact point of view, that probably isn't a bad definition, but defining it just misses the point. There aren't words for it. That's why I asked for a definition of music in general, instead of an explanation for the nuances of a musical genre.

My latest question: what constitutes a guitar in the broadest sense? If a guitar can have seven strings, what else can it have while still being considered a guitar? From what I know there are three basic types of stringed instruments (excluding the piano, which I put as a percussion instrument because the keys are struck, which what makes it percussion): bowed ones, which are obviously bowed, including the viola, violin, cello, and double-bass; harps and the like, which are plucked and have a frame, which includes lyres and harps; and lastly lutes (I'm aware that this word can also be used to refer to an instrument included in this class, not just a class of instruments), which are plucked and the following features: a body, a neck, and a head. The guitar is obviously a lute, so my definition of an average guitar is "a lute with six strings". But it's obvious that this doesn't always apply: firstly, I've seen cases where the guitar is not a lute, such as the Chapman Stick (not a lute because it has no body, and no clearly defined head), and other oddities such as the harp-guitar (if I was hesitant to call the Chapman Stick a true guitar, what can I say to this?); secondly, there's the matter of guitars having more than six strings (variations run from 6 - 12, and 4 - 12 counting bass guitars). What I'm getting at here is this: the only thing that is consistent among all the variations I've mentioned is plucked strings. To me the harp guitar is the oddest variation, and the one I'd really hesitate to call a guitar even in the broadest sense (some of them look like normal guitars with a frame like appendage, others use extended uppercuts to work like a frame). I could probably go on for some length about all the strange guitars and guitarlike things I've seen, but instead I'll cut it here by restating my point: how would you define a guitar?

Well, it's a stringed instrument, with a defined body and neck, played by plucking rather than bowing.

How's that?

Note that this means, technically, a Chapman Stick is not a guitar. But a ukulele is.

That must have been really cool! Details! Puleeze?


MIPSIMS addition to the thread:

I just added a new member of the family today -- an Epiphone Dot Studio. I was jonesing for a Gibson-scale guitar, because my guitar teacher is giving me all these hand-breaker chords jazz chords lately, which are easier on a Gibson/Epi 24 3/4" scale than my Tele and Schecter's 25 1/2" scale. Plus I've never owned a semi-hollow before and the tone just grabbed me. And it was dirt cheap ($299!) and Guitar Center has a 30-day return policy, so what the hell, I snagged it. I've had maybe a couple of hours at home with the new kid, we're still getting used to each other, but its quite a fun guitar.

Are you trying to describe an "A" style bar chord? e.g. a D major chord:I can play this easily on an electric guitar and have the first string sound correctly. I can see this shape being very difficult on an acoustic, but on an electric it requires practice and patience for most folks, but is quite doable.

You put on heavier strings. When I wanted to learn some System of a Down stuff I had to dedicate a guitar to it, they play in 'dropped D' tuned down a tone (so it's actually dropped C) I put on a set of 011s and got an extra heavy bottom E (er, C). Turns out this works for early B52s stuff as well, Rock Lobster falls under your fingers nicely.

I do the A type barre like this

Cool on your new guitar - a good semi-hollow is a fun thing.

as for the Martin - I sent this email to a few guitar geek friends:

MwNNrules - what's with all this "defining" stuff?? Just play and have fun, man, jeez... :)

Here's the poll section of the thread:

How many guitars* do you own?

Me: 5, all electrics. Tele, SG, Schecter C1, Epi Dot, and a "super-strat" knockoff.


*using your definition of guitar :)

Two, technically.

The one I actually use is an Epiphone Les Paul Special II; it's what I got last year when I started playing.

We also own an old classical acoustic guitar (of unknown make and vintage), which once belonged to my wife's uncle, and which he gave to her decades ago. Neither of us play it (she doesn't know how to play at all), and it's mostly a dust-collector.

Mid 90's Fender Lone Star Strat
2009 GhostTown S-Type :)
2008 GhostTown Quilt Top T-Type with P-90's
1972 Gibson Les Paul Deluxe
2004 Ibanez Artcore Archtop
1967 Teisco Del Ray (my slide guitar)
My own personal "Frankenstrat" featuring parts that were lying around the shop
Mid 90's Taylor 614-CE

So I guess that makes 8 of them. #9 is around the corner though...

Wouldn't that also qualify for the GhostTown moniker?

Not really. All the parts were pre-manufactured parts from other guitars I've had thru the years. None of it was handmade by me... except the pickguard.

Just one, a 2008 (I assume) Mexican standard Strat, midnight wine with a maple fretboard.

09(?) Starcaster by Fender. Black.
09 Guitar Hero Stratocaster (360) black. It's like a mini-me!

1970's Kay squareneck dobro
1996(?) Taylor 422R
Washburn D-10 (my cheapest, and most favoritest acoustic)
1973(?) Ovation Custom Balladeer
Yamaha cedar classical
1950's Valco/Supro lap steel (bakelite! And it has the best pickup I've ever heard in it.)
Washburn electric (I forget the model. Basically a Floyd-equipped superstrat shredder. I'm rebuilding it. Great body and neck, but crap electronics. $25 Craigslist score.)
1996 G&L ASAT Special (my #1 electric)
1970's Electra Les Paul copy (awesome guitar. Matsumoku LP copy.)
1981 Ibanez AS50 semihollow (my #2 electric. Completely refurbished, with Gibson '57 Classic pickups.)
G&L L-2000 bass

WANT! :D

Okay - here goes - I have 8 currently:

- Tele Special - homebrew build (link to thread chain where I chronicle the building)
- Telecaster homebrew build - looks like a '52 Reissue, but plays much better ;)
- Baby Taylor (currently used more by my kids...)
- 2007 Gibson J-45 acoustic
- 1946 Gibson LG-2 - small-bodied acoustic - the sweetest, simplest tone
- 1980's Japanese Les Paul replica by Burny (still threatening to sell soon)
- 1973 Gibson Les Paul Custom - '54 Black Beauty Reissue, aka "Gracie" (link to pic of guitar + namesake) - my soulmate guitar and the one that opened my eyes to how a truly great guitar is different - nothing like a 70's LP; this is just like a 1954 Les Paul Custom
- 1957 Gibson Les Paul Special, in TV Yellow

I have been trying to get some photos taken, but my Mr. Photographer friend and I have not been able to connect up...and I always have a few moving parts I am trying to swap out or upgrade, so this list has a shelf life of yesterday...

That's the one. Something to work on.

I don't think I've tried the pinky method Small Clanger pointed out. I'll give it a shot. Usually if I need the 1st string to sound I'll scrunch my middle, ring, and pinky fingers on the 2,3,4 strings and fret the 1st with my index and just blow off the 5th string.

Guitars currently in my posession:

A Yamaha 12-string beater that the bass player in my old band gave me.
G&L F-100 that bought in the '80s. I pull it out every now & then and remember it needs a fret job.
Taylor Grand Auditorium 'base' model 714 I got in I think 1992.
American Standard Strat I got in 1993 or 4.

and that was it, until...

My ebony Gibson Les Paul 'Standard Traditional Pro' that I bought last year after coming into some money. It's awesome and the guitar I play 97.5% of the time, even my old fingerpickin' stuff.

Let's see...

1937 Gibson L-37 archtop (hopefully sold Real Soon Now)
2006 Huss and Dalton DM
Early 90's three-bolt G&L Legacy (Sparkle purple!)
2008 G&L Asat Special Bluesboy.
Late '80s Korean B.C. Rich (disassembled, partially stripped, waiting to be made into something)

Right - I go away for two days, and now I've got all these different things to throw my two cents in over.

I have five guitars -
Big Bill is a Yamaha Classical from the early 1970s with a laminate top. Currently working as a baritone guitar.
L'il Ed is an Classical made for me in 2001 by Edward Klein.
La Mouette de neige is a Seagull steel-string acoustic made sometime in 1993.
Big Ed is a made in Mexico Power Telecaster - it has a stereo output with 3 single coil pickups and a Fishman piezoelectric pickup in the bridge. The signal can be split and eq'd separately and sent to two different amps. Very fun instrument.
Lorne is an 8-string custom made for Lorne Lofsky by David Wren of the 12th Fret sometime in 1983. Lorne is the one I use the least because it's by far the most awkward of the lot - it's essentially a Tele neck but with two extra strings, so there's not a lot of room for your fingertips. On the other hand, it's exquisitely simple to do Breau Barres...

And at this very moment, I have two other guitars on rent -
Ralph is an Art of Lutherie 12 string
Pierre is a La Patrie concert classical strung as a baritone instrument.


Speaking of baritone guitars, what I've been doing for the last couple of months is taking a regular classical and tuning it down a minor third. (1st - C#; 2nd - G#; 3rd - E; 4th - B; 5th - F#; 6th - C#) For a while, I tried using Extra Hard Tension strings, but the resulting tone quality was too flabby. What I now do is take a pack of Normal Tension strings, but put them on one string higher, so what would normally serve as a 2nd string B is now a 1st string C#. Then for the 6th string, I was using the E out of an Extra Hard Tension set, but it wasn't cutting it, especially in a drop 'D' (well, okay, drop 'B', but this is confusing enough without bringing facts into it.) Now, I have a store of .052, .054 and .056 inch strings to use down there. I think when I get back home, I'm going to set Big Bill up with some .056, but for now, because Pierre the beater isn't my guitar, I'm taking it easy on him with a .054.

So, repertoire - I have 3 songs by John Beckwith, 2 songs by William Beauvais, 2 Schubert arrangements, a Fauré arrangement and a Lenny Breau song all of which I'm polishing to record for a demo. In particular, the Schuberts and the Fauré are what require the Baritone guitar. The key I need for the Fauré is Db, and it's just awkward on a standard tuning. On the Baritone, what looks like E major is Db. It's the same with the Schubert one is in Gb, the other is in B, so on the Baritone that's like playing in A and D, respectively.

The question had been asked about 7 string guitars - different guys come up with different tunings based on what they most want to do. My friend Paul tunes his seven in straight major thirds - C, G#, E, C, G#, E, C going from first to seventh. Other guys have tuned theirs in straight fourths. Bucky Pizzarelli, George Van Eps and Howard Alden all had/have a low A for the seventh string. Lenny Breau liked to have a high A for the first string. My 8 is usually kept in 1st - A, 2nd - E, 3rd - B, 4th - G, 5th - D, 6th - A, 7th - E, 8th - A, but I have been known to drop the 6th and 7th strings and play it as if it were a 3 string bass.

I don't see why a Chapman isn't a guitar - anytime you use a hammer on (ligado ascendente for us classical guys), you're tapping rather than plucking the string. I remember the youngest member of Los Romeros played entire passages with left hand alone. Plus, you can pick/pluck/strum on a Chapman - you just don't have any open string sounds...

Nice post, Le Ministre. You've got me thinking about hauling out one of my lesser-used guitars and putting heavy+detuned strings on it, just to see what that's like. Sounds like fun!
Babelfish tells me, so it must be true: "The Gull of snow." Or I'm guessing that that is what the French (or French-Canadians) call a seagull, but reverse babelfishing "seagull"->French = "mouette", so maybe not.

Babelfish is telling you the truth - a seagull, in French, is la mouette. 'La Mouette de neige' was a line I had in 'Le Vampire et la nymphomane', and yes, it really does mean the Seagull of Snow. The entire show was this bizarre, off the wall piece of French surrealism that even the francophones in the cast could not completely figure out. La pauvre mouette was what fellow cast members called my guitar, as I learned most of the piece by playing my line melodically...

Dude, wow, you've got eclectic hobbies. Thanks for the clarification! I'm trying to picture someone delivering that line: "Hark! The Seagull of Snow! (Dunn Dun Dunnnn!) :)

How do the pickups map to the stereo channels? I'm imagining a very elaborate set of switches which send one of the four pickups to "left", and one of the other pickups to "right", right?

No Kidding? My super-strat knockoff is an Electra Phoenix. I've actually liked it a great deal, but these days it's not a guitar I play daily or even often.

[QUOTE=squeegee;12077481]Here's the poll section of the thread:

How many guitars* do you own?

snip QUOTE]

Being a lefty is a pain in the wallet

'96 Maton EM225C acoustic 6-string

'93 Maton ECW80 acoustic 12-string

'65 wood-bodied Dobro

'94 Danelectro S2 set up for slide in open G

'86 Legend 'Strat' - frankenstein'd with DiMarzio and Duncan pups and Kahler whammy

'93 Samick 'Les Paul' frankenstein'd with DiMarzio and Duncan pups and Gotoh 'heads-rewired for splits and phasing

'97 American Standard Fender Strat

'08 Ravenwest DS300 'Les Paul'- sweetest tone ever

'92 Vester 'Fender Bass'

-Mitch

:smack: geez louise . . .

I've also got an '02 Ibanez RG270L

Slipped my mind 'cause it's the only one in 'standard' tuning- all the others are tuned to Eb (or open Gb). Used it as a stage guitar with these guys in '08 http://www.myspace.com/thequadmire and haven't played it since

-Mitch

'05 Martin electric-acoustic cutaway Auditorium
'04 MIA Standard Strat
'05 Epiphone Les Paul Standard
'05 Washburn 12-string
'04 Epiphone Jumbo acoustic (this one lives at my dad's house, but I probably play it more than he does in the one or two times a year I make it back there)

How many? Um...

Fender Tele mid 70s beaten up gigged a lot

Fender Performer late 80s, gigged a bit, very versatile coil taps, 24 frets, locking whammy

Gibson Les Paul Gold Top, P90s, of suspicious history

PRS 24 fret blue book-match top, don't know the model off the top of my head

Self made Explorer, all mahogany with ebony fretboard, though neck, DiMarzio PAFs

Ibanez (SF something?) 22 fret sort of superstrat, thin wide neck shredder

Yamaha small body acoustic (FG 150 or something) currently on ragtime duty


Also:

Washburn/Status headless bass

Horrible Jap LP copy converted to 12 string

Non-guitars (depending who defines it)

Sitar - with a lot of missing strings

Banjo - currently on loan to sister

I've lost count now.

Hey Pork Rind - what do you think of your H&D? I have played a few; well-made guitars (for other Dopers: Huss and Dalton are a small-production guitar company, like Santa Cruz and Collings, turning out high-end acoustic guitars based on popular design standards that originated mostly with Martin and Gibson, but with their own spin on it). Does it follow a Martin D-18? If so, how does it compare? How chunky/slim is the neck?

And I love the photos of the '37 Gibson I found online - what can you tell us about it (how does it sound and play, too?) and how come you are selling it?

Le Ministre - I wish I had exposure to the makers you describe. Heard of most of 'em, but haven't played any...

It's not at all difficult on an acoustic. I hit the double-barre chords like that all the time on both my 6- and 12-string acoustics. In fact, for fast progressions, I will sometimes barre the basic A chord like that.

That works, thanks. I was going to mention how the ukulele was like a miniature guitar in my question, but I decided I my rant had gone on long enough, and I ended it before I got to that part.

:D Sorry, I'll admit it, I like defining things in a very exact way. I'm like a philosopher, except nothing I have to say is deep or important.

Yeah. It's pretty cool. Fugly, but cool. :) The pickup is really remarkable. I understand that Ry Cooder used to transplant the pickups from those lap steels into his regular players.

How much are you looking to get for the Burny?

Yeah. Matsumoku was one of the REALLY good Japanese factories back then. They really made their knockoffs right. Full-thickness tops, high-quality backs and necks. Good pickups. The works. Let me know if you want to offload that Phoenix. :D

Yep - and now you can get handmade versions - the Coodercaster pickup (link to description...)

...as for the Burny, I appreciate your inquiry; here's a pic. It was made at the Fuji Gen Gakki factory, to my knowledge - it's a good one. Please email me using the address in my profile; I am not sure it is okay to discuss $$ on the SDMB...

I don't know if it makes it better or worse, but that sort of thing is my day job... I remember some pretty long nights in Montréal just learning the show.


It's much easier than that - the 3 single coils have a five position switch (neck, neck & middle, middle, middle & bridge, bridge) a volume and a tone control and come out one 'side', the Fishman Power Bridge has just a volume and comes out the other 'side'. One 1/4 inch stereo male jack on one end, two 1/4 inch mono male jacks on the other end. A 'send and receive' cable for an effects loop does the trick nicely. It's just fun because a Tele is a pretty versatile axe to begin with - with the right amount of fiddling, you can get the piezo to sound almost like a steel-string acoustic with a piezo in it.

Oh, there's no question. A ukulele is a subcategory of the guitar family. Now, technically, my definition sort of encompasses lutes, but a lute _has_ to have a bowl-shaped body.

Like Ovation acoustic guitars. ;)

Yep. I've been wondering if they count as lutes.

Speaking of which, what's the difference between electric guitar types? Okay. So the Stratocaster has a tremolo in the body and a tremolo bar, and its traditional shape and, generally, three pickups, the middle at a slant. What defines the other brands?

E-Sabbath - two things:

1) Just in case there is a need to be clear, there is a bit of a whoosh to Ogre's post - in some circles, including mine ;) and apparently Ogre's, Ovations are slammed for being not all that great. They provide an even tone that is less prone to feedback and are therefore good for performance settings - but if you don't need one for a big arena, why bother?

2) What you are asking for, in your question about electric guitar types, is something that I refer to as "What are the major electric guitar "food groups"?" It is a twisty road with lots of YMMV, but if you want to go there, I may have time in the office next week...

I meant it was difficult for some to use that shape and have the high string sound properly. Not that the chord is all that advanced, but most beginners have a very difficult time with barre chords.

Wow, you must be one of the very very few people who would even be interested in an Electra, which I figured was worth about the price of its weight firewood. Mine's pretty cool, HSH, gold metallic body, black neck, fingerboard and headstock. It looks a lot like this pic, but HSH and three knobs (and of course body color). PM me if you're really interested.

Are any of the guitar-related magazines worth reading?
I like browsing through the guitar magazines that I see at book-stores. I remember browsing through an issue of Guitarist, which was doing a rundown on the 100 greatest guitarists. Subjective territory, but the list was done very well: they had good articles (often an interview) on the guitarists in question, and it wasn't numbered. It was at an advantage compared to the rather poorly done Rolling Stone list. I have one quirk with the Guitarist list though: no Duane Allman (either that or I accidentally leafed over him), who ranked second on Rolling Stone's list. But Guitarist did have Larry Carlton (guitarist for "Kid Charlemagne" by Steely Dan, my favorite song), as well as many other less known masters on the list.

Well, if ya find one at a thrift store (oh, say, like a 1973 Custom Balladeer) for thrift store chump change, why not indeed? :D

Hey, man. Electras are solid guitars. I'll stand by that, for sure. Even after they moved production to Korea, I thought the quality was quite good.

Oh, and WordMan, let me tell you the same thing I was forced to tell squeegee: I'm sorry for being a flake. That Burny is lovely. But I posted in lustful haste earlier. We're having a baby in the coming weeks, and there's just no way I can justify buying guitars right now. I'd love to reconsider after the financial dust settles, but I really have to be in Fiscal Conservative mode right now.