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-   -   Shodan, HurricaneDitka, and George Zimmerman: Three Racist Peas in a Racist Pod (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=866775)

Richard Parker 06-14-2019 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by septimus (Post 21697355)
:confused: Which part of my version is uncertain?

I hadn't even seen your posts in this thread, so don't take my post personally if it doesn't apply to you. But since you ask, (2) is incorrect, (4) is uncertain, and the details of (5)--which is really the decisive category--are largely unknown.

septimus 06-14-2019 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Parker (Post 21697614)
... (2) is incorrect, ...

I assume you're basing this claim on a pedantic interpretation of English grammar. ("We don't need you to follow him.")

Do I guess correctly that you also argue that Trump didn't call the Duchess of Sussex "nasty"?

iiandyiiii 09-12-2019 09:25 AM

Shodan picks up a warning for trolling (racist trolling, by my reading): https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...7#post21856017

manson1972 09-12-2019 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 21856045)
Shodan picks up a warning for trolling (racist trolling, by my reading): https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...7#post21856017

Trolling maybe. I don't think it's racist to link to a school's website and post the education numbers found there.

iiandyiiii 09-12-2019 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manson1972 (Post 21856053)
Trolling maybe. I don't think it's racist to link to a school's website and post the education numbers found there.

I don't either, but I think it is racist to imply a connection between "black culture" and low test scores, as I think the post in question did.

Manda JO 09-12-2019 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manson1972 (Post 21856053)
Trolling maybe. I don't think it's racist to link to a school's website and post the education numbers found there.

This one is less ambiguous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shodan (Post 21853441)
In C.S.Lewis' The Voyage of the Dawn Treader the Dufflepuds are comically inept little people. One of the stories about them is that once the cat got into their dairy, and twenty of them were hard at work moving the milk out. Nobody thought to remove the cat. It sounds like Dufflepuds are running the Oregon school board, and responding to a crisis where too many black cats are being removed from the dairy.

Regards,
Shodan


The accusation of "trolling" pisses me off. "Trolling" implies he doesn't really mean it. It's just fucking racist hate speech. "Libtards won't admit the obvious, black kids are just inherently violent and stupid, and schools need to use harsher restraints on them to keep the school safe for the good type of children". It's a fig-leaf to blame "culture".

That whole thread pissed me off so bad. This is literally a racist's favorite story. Angelic WASP teachers, tied to a rock and sacrificed to tribal Africans. The recreational outrage is overwhelming.

JohnT 09-12-2019 11:15 AM

Lol, pussy-assed bitch whines about it in ATMB.

MrDibble 09-12-2019 01:17 PM

No snowflake like a racist snowflake.

Skywatcher 09-12-2019 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manda JO (Post 21856266)
The accusation of "trolling" pisses me off. "Trolling" implies he doesn't really mean it.

TPTB of the SDMB have decided that whether he means it or not is irrelevant as far as trolling is concerned.

Skywatcher 09-12-2019 02:39 PM

From the ATMB thread:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21856752)
Your intent may be sincere but you were going about it in such a way as to intentionally provoke a reaction. That's what got you the warning.

Learn from this. You can be a valuable poster. I believe that. But if you persist in designing your arguments in such a way as to provoke reactions as well as debating you may continue to pick up warnings. You won't enjoy that.


MrDibble 09-12-2019 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21856752)
Learn from this. You can be a valuable poster. I believe that.

Jonathan must also still believe in the Easter Bunny, the Soul Cake Duck and the Hannukah Gerbil...

John DiFool 09-12-2019 07:20 PM

I believe in urinal cakes & gerbilling. Does that count?

Sunny Daze 09-12-2019 09:00 PM

I hate myself for asking, was that a Richard Gere reference?

MrDibble 09-13-2019 12:34 AM

Ha Ha! Suspended! Only 1 week, but still...Ha! Ha!

TokyoBayer 09-13-2019 02:00 AM

Are we going to have bets or pick dates until he’s banned?

There’s no point for Shodan to be on these boards unless he’s trolling.

I think he’ll be quiet for a bit but there’s no way he can NOT troll.

Four months?

Gyrate 09-13-2019 04:40 AM

He really should have listened to this guy on how not to fall afoul of the moderators.

What - me gloat? Perish the thought. I'm merely noting the irony.

wguy123 09-13-2019 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrate (Post 21857818)
He really should have listened to this guy on how not to fall afoul of the moderators.

What - me gloat? Perish the thought. I'm merely noting the irony.

That's funny! What a maroon!

jz78817 09-13-2019 11:04 AM

I'm not reading back through this whole thread to see if I posted in it before, but I had to shake my head at the first page where they act like Martin calling himself a "no limit n***a" is significant. I went to high school in the early '90s and I'd say a third of the guys in my (all white) class were calling themselves things like that.

iiandyiiii 02-19-2020 01:51 PM

Several times, over the years, in various discussions about race, racism, and intelligence, I had asked Shodan directly whether he thought black people were inherently inferior, on average, in intelligence. He always refused to answer, and I suspected this was because he thought the answer was "yes" but was afraid to say so.

Looking back at some old threads, I found one in which he does appear to answer the question as yes, quite clearly, in fact, though perhaps without realizing it (and indeed I may not have realized it at the time either!): https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=136

So, at least in 2013, Shodan appears to have believed that those spreading the "Blacks are dumber" gospel were making "true statements". Based on more recent discussions we've had, I don't recall any posts that would suggest he's changed his views, but hopefully I'm incorrect on this. If you no longer believe that "blacks are dumber", Shodan, I hope you'll let us know!

It was kind of a relief to stumble across this... I was worried that my impression of Shodan might have been entirely false! But of course I would be even more pleased to learn that he's moved past this sort of racism and now recognizes that it's wrong. And if you haven't yet, Shodan, it's never too late to grow out of racist beliefs!

D_Odds 02-19-2020 05:15 PM

An egg is obviously an egg.

But why, oh why, are you so concerned about "proving" that he's an egg that you are digging through 7 year old posts. Personally, I don't care what you, he, or I (or anyone else) said 7 days ago, let alone what they said 7 years ago. Do you believe that this will change general opinion now that you've found the egg's "gotcha" moment? Or are you cataloging this for when he runs for public office, the only place this might actually be relevant.

iiandyiiii 02-19-2020 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D_Odds (Post 22148525)
An egg is obviously an egg.

But why, oh why, are you so concerned about "proving" that he's an egg that you are digging through 7 year old posts. Personally, I don't care what you, he, or I (or anyone else) said 7 days ago, let alone what they said 7 years ago. Do you believe that this will change general opinion now that you've found the egg's "gotcha" moment? Or are you cataloging this for when he runs for public office, the only place this might actually be relevant.

I doubt it will change anything, but hope springs eternal! And maybe it's silly, but trying to persuade racists to change their views is a hobby of mine, whether through gentle persuasion, hard reason, or even mockery. I don't get too many wins, but the ones I get are so, so worth it!

Isosleepy 02-19-2020 06:05 PM

So you decided to extend the lease on that rent-free space in your head, then?

iiandyiiii 02-19-2020 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isosleepy (Post 22148593)
So you decided to extend the lease on that rent-free space in your head, then?

I'm a generous man! All Dopers are welcome in this ol' noggin.

Superdude 02-19-2020 07:36 PM

Speaking of George Zimmerman, he's suing Elizabeth Warren and Mayor Pete for defamation of character, to the tune of $265 million, for tweeting that Trayvon Martin would now be 25.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...on/4808184002/

Ethilrist 02-19-2020 07:48 PM

No way is that guy's character worth $265 million. Five grand and a golden retriever, maybe.

Jackmannii 02-19-2020 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethilrist (Post 22148732)
No way is that guy's character worth $265 million. Five grand and a golden retriever, maybe.

Would you please leave retrievers out of this??!? :mad:

Guest-starring: Id! 02-20-2020 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethilrist (Post 22148732)
Five grand and a golden retriever, maybe.

Five, grand, tomato throws to the head and a psyched ya handshake.*

*Making sure, of course, that you don't pull the feint too quickly or jerkingly in case you-know-who has to stand his ground.

ETA on footnote: Even by the first wind-up of the tomato-throwing, GeeZee'll have Glocky out all stalwart quick.

The Librarian 02-20-2020 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D_Odds (Post 22148525)
An egg is obviously an egg.

But why, oh why, are you so concerned about "proving" that he's an egg that you are digging through 7 year old posts. Personally, I don't care what you, he, or I (or anyone else) said 7 days ago, let alone what they said 7 years ago. Do you believe that this will change general opinion now that you've found the egg's "gotcha" moment? Or are you cataloging this for when he runs for public office, the only place this might actually be relevant.

You havenít been following US politics lately, have you?

Damuri Ajashi 02-20-2020 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 21856235)
I don't either, but I think it is racist to imply a connection between "black culture" and low test scores, as I think the post in question did.

Is culture immutable?
Is culture irrelevant?

Vinyl Turnip 02-20-2020 11:01 AM

Is culture yogurt?
Is culture a club?

Knowed Out 02-20-2020 12:56 PM

Andy, I know your intentions are good, but chances are, digging up old wounds and rehashing 7-year old arguments aren't going to improve anybody's outlook. I can't think Shodan, or anybody else for that matter, would like to be reminded of past strife and be expected to come back with a positive reaction. It smacks of elitism, which usually alienates the Joe 6-Pack contingent, who don't like being told their culture doesn't meet liberal approval. Thus, more votes for Trump. This fall, we'll see the US map almost covered completely with red, because Democrats won't have learned the lessons from 2016.

Like the old saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

JohnT 02-20-2020 01:15 PM

Explain to me this awesome plan of gathering the favor of the 'fuck your feelings' group by refusing to fuck their feelings? How is this going to work again?

"Fuck you, goddamned <slur>"
"Awww, man, don't do that. Please?"
"Oh, Ok. Ready to go vote Warren?"

Shodan 02-20-2020 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 22149600)
Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii
I don't either, but I think it is racist to imply a connection between "black culture" and low test scores, as I think the post in question did.

Is culture immutable?
Is culture irrelevant?

WADR that is not even the point. The post in question did not imply that there was any connection between black culture and low test scores.

As you probably know, the scientific method consists roughly of
  • Observing some phenomenon.
  • Formulating a hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon.
  • Designing an experiment that alters the variables in the hypothesis, but leaves the others the same, and predicting the results.
  • Then you carry out the experiment and look at the results and see if they match the prediction. If they do, that is evidence (not proof) in favor of the hypothesis. If they don't, that is evidence against it.
The observed phenomenon in this case was, math and reading scores for black students in a given school system were abysmal. The hypothesis was that this was because the students were not being taught in a context of "black culture". The experiment was to set up a school that did teach in a context of "black culture". The prediction was that the scores of the students would be better. The results were that they were not. Therefore the evidence indicates, not that "black culture" leads to lower test scores, but that it doesn't fix them. Whether or not the school teaches in a way that respects or implements one version of "black culture" makes, apparently, no difference in the test scores.

Therefore, it is probably something other than "black culture" as taught in that school that causes the low test scores.

Now here is the part where iiandyiiii stops listening.

We don't know what that something is. We only know that teaching "black culture" as envisioned at that particular school didn't fix the problem. Maybe a different version of black culture would fix it, maybe it is something that has nothing to do with the schools, maybe it is something that has nothing to do with culture at all. We don't know.

Now, iiandyiiii cannot understand the previous paragraph. Because he has only two slots in his head, and everything related to race has to be put into one or the other slot.

Either a statement is saying, directly or indirectly,
  • it's the white man's fault, or
  • it's crimethink.
He can read well enough to know it's not the first. Ergo, it has to be the second.

In this particular instance, he has taken it into his little head that the form of crimethink is "black people are inferior". Therefore, he cannot see - literally cannot see - the statement "we don't know what that something is". And thus he has to translate that blank space in the post to say something like "we do know what that something is" and then fill in the rest of the blank with the rest of the crimethink.

That's why he has spent the last six months searching for something that gave him a reason to re-post #62 of this thread. He was looking for crimethink to fill in the blanks, and that's the best he could come up with.

George Orwell was a gifted and insightful writer. Before I joined the SDMB, I didn't realize he was trying to write a documentary.

Regards,
Shodan

iiandyiiii 02-20-2020 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowed Out (Post 22149853)
Andy, I know your intentions are good, but chances are, digging up old wounds and rehashing 7-year old arguments aren't going to improve anybody's outlook. I can't think Shodan, or anybody else for that matter, would like to be reminded of past strife and be expected to come back with a positive reaction. It smacks of elitism, which usually alienates the Joe 6-Pack contingent, who don't like being told their culture doesn't meet liberal approval. Thus, more votes for Trump. This fall, we'll see the US map almost covered completely with red, because Democrats won't have learned the lessons from 2016.

Like the old saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Virtually nothing we say or do on this board matters. This is pretty much all just passing the time. I always hope that I can help folks be better (and I hope that I can be better myself), but I recognize this almost never happens due to persuasion-by-post. It's no big deal -- just the fun of the Pit (though "almost never happens" is still not-quite-never). I don't claim that it's anything more, even as I have occasional slim hopes that it might be!

As far as your prediction about the election, I'll take that as seriously as any prediction made this early by random internet strangers -- meaning that it's worth exactly nothing. In fact, that's the main lesson I learned from 2016 -- that predictions this early don't mean anything at all. And predictions close to November only mean anything if they're based on solid data and come from Nate Silver (and even then they're just rough estimates).

iiandyiiii 02-20-2020 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shodan (Post 22149928)
WADR that is not even the point. The post in question did not imply that there was any connection between black culture and low test scores.

As you probably know, the scientific method consists roughly of
  • Observing some phenomenon.
  • Formulating a hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon.
  • Designing an experiment that alters the variables in the hypothesis, but leaves the others the same, and predicting the results.
  • Then you carry out the experiment and look at the results and see if they match the prediction. If they do, that is evidence (not proof) in favor of the hypothesis. If they don't, that is evidence against it.
The observed phenomenon in this case was, math and reading scores for black students in a given school system were abysmal. The hypothesis was that this was because the students were not being taught in a context of "black culture". The experiment was to set up a school that did teach in a context of "black culture". The prediction was that the scores of the students would be better. The results were that they were not. Therefore the evidence indicates, not that "black culture" leads to lower test scores, but that it doesn't fix them. Whether or not the school teaches in a way that respects or implements one version of "black culture" makes, apparently, no difference in the test scores.

Therefore, it is probably something other than "black culture" as taught in that school that causes the low test scores.

Now here is the part where iiandyiiii stops listening.

We don't know what that something is. We only know that teaching "black culture" as envisioned at that particular school didn't fix the problem. Maybe a different version of black culture would fix it, maybe it is something that has nothing to do with the schools, maybe it is something that has nothing to do with culture at all. We don't know.

Now, iiandyiiii cannot understand the previous paragraph. Because he has only two slots in his head, and everything related to race has to be put into one or the other slot.

Either a statement is saying, directly or indirectly,
  • it's the white man's fault, or
  • it's crimethink.
He can read well enough to know it's not the first. Ergo, it has to be the second.

In this particular instance, he has taken it into his little head that the form of crimethink is "black people are inferior". Therefore, he cannot see - literally cannot see - the statement "we don't know what that something is". And thus he has to translate that blank space in the post to say something like "we do know what that something is" and then fill in the rest of the blank with the rest of the crimethink.

That's why he has spent the last six months searching for something that gave him a reason to re-post #62 of this thread. He was looking for crimethink to fill in the blanks, and that's the best he could come up with.

George Orwell was a gifted and insightful writer. Before I joined the SDMB, I didn't realize he was trying to write a documentary.

Regards,
Shodan

This is a really interesting post (the part about the school, anyway), and demonstrates that you're capable of really putting effort into this discussion, despite your apparent negative bias and inclination to default to (sometimes racist) snark mode. I'm not sure if I agree with everything here, but the discussion about the school is well considered and reasoned, AFAICT, rather than effort-free lazy snarking like the post that got you warned. I support the warning of that post (because I still don't see any other way to read it other than that you're blaming "black culture" for the low test scores), but if you had made the above post in the thread in question, it would have warranted real conversation and discussion. So I thank you for putting effort into it, and urge you to do so for this and related topics in the future, rather than throw out lazy, racist (or racist-appearing) snark.

Good discussion is always worth the effort, and I applaud you! In case you're curious, I don't believe your discussion above regarding school and "black culture" necessarily conflicts with anything I believe or have advocated for, but it's interesting nonetheless. Based on other data I've seen and posted about (and I can refer to links later if anyone's interested), I believe that the white-black test score disparities are caused by a combination of reduced resources and various discriminatory societal factors that somehow severely reduce the chances of black boys and men to achieve decent outcomes, both in education and in other life statistical indicators. According to one of those studies I posted about, black girls and women have statistical achievements of roughly the same as white girls and women of identical income backgrounds (regardless of whether they come from single or dual parent homes), but black boys and men have significantly reduce achievement levels as compared to white boys and men from identical income backgrounds. So there's something in society that specifically holds back black boys and men, but not black girls and women, on top of the broader sorts of factors that have resulted in black children generally tending to come from backgrounds of lower incomes.

Your attempts at mind-reading are amusing, as always. But the real thoughtful posting (like the first half of the above!) is always much more interesting, and I'm always pleased when you put real effort into a post. I hope this continues, and I'll be happy to continue this kind of thoughtful back-and-forth when you choose to engage in it!

iiandyiiii 02-20-2020 02:03 PM

Here is the thread I'm referring to that talks about a study that found that, in addition to income inequalities between white and black families, society is specifically holding back black boys in achievement: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=852276

Max S. 02-20-2020 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22148160)
Looking back at some old threads, I found one in which he does appear to answer the question as yes, quite clearly, in fact, though perhaps without realizing it (and indeed I may not have realized it at the time either!): https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=136

Sorry iiandyiiii, I'm not seeing it. Shodan comes across as holding the opinion that claims like "blacks are dumber" would be OK if warranted by evidence. I agree with Shodan on that specific point, and I think you would too, judging by your contemporary response.

From what I can tell, Shodan did not participate in that thread to defend a position that blacks are dumber. His sole contribution to the thread was to point out that such a position would be acceptable if phrased in a nice way and supported by evidence.

Now, there are moral frameworks where it is never acceptable to claim that blacks are dumber. Particularly, such a claim (even if supported by evidence) contradicts certain forms of egalitarianism, for example the premise that "all men are created equal". Perhaps you subscribe to such a framework? I know I do - at least, until proven otherwise. Given the choice between that maxim and the truth, I would pick the truth. There are other forms of egalitarianism aside from Locke's tabula rasa egalitarianism.

~Max

iiandyiiii 02-20-2020 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max S. (Post 22150177)
Sorry iiandyiiii, I'm not seeing it. Shodan comes across as holding the opinion that claims like "blacks are dumber" would be OK if warranted by evidence.

He didn't specify this -- he said that I was probably correct about the "blacks are dumber" crowd, and he characterized them as people who "think it is OK to make true statements if the evidence warrants it". At the very least, this post is entirely sympathetic with those who argue that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence -- and I think it's also clearly expressing that he explicitly agrees with them.

But it's not that important, as others have noted -- I'm much more interested in the thoughtful discussion he offered about the school and test scores.

As to my feelings, no, it's not okay, and never okay, to say that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence. "Black people" is not a biologically valid grouping; "dumber" (and possibly even intelligence) are not clearly defined and clearly measurable scientific characteristics; and thus this is no more valid a scientific question than "are Jews inherently dishonest and greedy" or "are white people inherently evil". Maybe at some point we'll actually have a full understanding (and a clear definition!) of human intelligence, and maybe at some point we'll fully understand all the genetics and heritable characteristics behind it. But we're not even close to any of that. I don't give the benefit of the doubt to those who insist on repeating pseudoscientific nonsense from the 19th century, no matter how they dress this hateful nonsense up.

pool 02-20-2020 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22148563)
I doubt it will change anything, but hope springs eternal! And maybe it's silly, but trying to persuade racists to change their views is a hobby of mine, whether through gentle persuasion, hard reason, or even mockery. I don't get too many wins, but the ones I get are so, so worth it!

If you are interested in the conversion of hardcore racists you may find this guy's story on Joe Rogan interesting:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTQ0Wj6yIg

iiandyiiii 02-20-2020 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pool (Post 22150360)
If you are interested in the conversion of hardcore racists you may find this guy's story on Joe Rogan interesting:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oGTQ0Wj6yIg

I love that guy! I've read about him and seen interviews before, but not this one. Thanks.

Max S. 02-20-2020 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22150311)
At the very least, this post is entirely sympathetic with those who argue that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence -- and I think it's also clearly expressing that he explicitly agrees with them.

Yeah no, I don't see how you get that. Here's my thought process as I read the thread:
  • nitpickery over whether "racist" or "racial" is an appropriate descriptor for a (hypothetical) factual finding of racial inferiority
  • iiandyiiii complains that some people think it is OK to make racist claims if they phrase it nicely and have some numbers to show (slight strawman)
  • Shodan clarifies, some people think it is OK to make true statements if the evidence warrants it supports those statements; he also implies that iiandyiiii is against truth
  • iiandyiiii agrees and asks for evidence behind racist claims being discussed (forgetting that the hypothetical included racial inferiority as an undisputable fact)
  • Shodan says iiandyiiii isn't interested in evidence and quits the thread
Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22150311)
As to my feelings, no, it's not okay, and never okay, to say that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence. "Black people" is not a biologically valid grouping; "dumber" (and possibly even intelligence) are not clearly defined and clearly measurable scientific characteristics; and thus this is no more valid a scientific question than "are Jews inherently dishonest and greedy" or "are white people inherently evil". Maybe at some point we'll actually have a full understanding (and a clear definition!) of human intelligence, and maybe at some point we'll fully understand all the genetics and heritable characteristics behind it. But we're not even close to any of that. I don't give the benefit of the doubt to those who insist on repeating pseudoscientific nonsense from the 19th century, no matter how they dress this hateful nonsense up.

No offense to you, but it seems that you go beyond refusing to entertain the logical possibility of racial theories of intelligence; you ascribe racist motive to those who would entertain evidence presented in support of such theories. I know what you wrote - you wrote that you don't give the benefit of the doubt to those who repeat nonsense from the 19th century. That is fine and it is your prerogative, but inapplicable here. The discussion involved a hypothetical: if 19th century nonsense was actually fact, would it still be racist? And instead of you addressing the hypothetical, I see you - still! - ascribing bad faith to those who would entertain the possibility that racist claims are true in their quest to define racism.

~Max

iiandyiiii 02-20-2020 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max S. (Post 22150536)
Yeah no, I don't see how you get that. Here's my thought process as I read the thread:
  • nitpickery over whether "racist" or "racial" is an appropriate descriptor for a (hypothetical) factual finding of racial inferiority
  • iiandyiiii complains that some people think it is OK to make racist claims if they phrase it nicely and have some numbers to show (slight strawman)
  • Shodan clarifies, some people think it is OK to make true statements if the evidence warrants it supports those statements; he also implies that iiandyiiii is against truth
  • iiandyiiii agrees and asks for evidence behind racist claims being discussed (forgetting that the hypothetical included racial inferiority as an undisputable fact)
  • Shodan says iiandyiiii isn't interested in evidence and quits the thread

Not sure why you lined through "true" for Shodan's statement -- we were talking about "blacks are dumber" statements, and he labeled these as "true statements". That's where I "get that" -- seems crystal clear to me.

Quote:

No offense to you, but it seems that you go beyond refusing to entertain the logical possibility of racial theories of intelligence; you ascribe racist motive to those who would entertain evidence presented in support of such theories. I know what you wrote - you wrote that you don't give the benefit of the doubt to those who repeat nonsense from the 19th century. That is fine and it is your prerogative, but inapplicable here. The discussion involved a hypothetical: if 19th century nonsense was actually fact, would it still be racist? And instead of you addressing the hypothetical, I see you - still! - ascribing bad faith to those who would entertain the possibility that racist claims are true in their quest to define racism.

~Max
This is like asking "if the Nazis were right about the Jews, was it okay to kill them all?" My brain is literally unable to process this. Races aren't and can't be inferior -- this is beyond the realm of possibility. It's not how the world works. And it's as horrifying as asking about whether it'd be okay to molest children if they all wanted it. I can't process it, and the idea of processing it is horrifying.

This (assumptions/hypotheses of racial inferiority) is the worst stuff in humanity and human history, and entertaining it as reasonable discussion is disgustingly immoral -- about the worst kind of thing that can be discussed. Yes, I do ascribe bad faith to those that entertain the possibility that racist claims might be true. There's no more possibility of good faith in this than in entertaining the possibility that these kids are just horny little monkeys who are asking to be molested.

MrDibble 02-21-2020 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max S. (Post 22150536)
you ascribe racist motive to those who would entertain evidence presented in support of such theories.

I don't know about iiandyiiii, but I know I do.

I also assign racist motives to those who use the cover of "just trying to have pure hypothetical debates" when those "pure hypothetical" debates always seem to involve them taking the side of known deplorables. Just saying.

Bryan Ekers 02-21-2020 02:35 AM

There's a difference between acting as the devil's advocate and the devil having you on retainer.

Max S. 02-23-2020 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22150573)
Not sure why you lined through "true" for Shodan's statement -- we were talking about "blacks are dumber" statements, and he labeled these as "true statements". That's where I "get that" -- seems crystal clear to me.

I struck the word "true" because it was superfluous. 1) A statement is true because it is supported by evidence; 2) it was (hypothetically) given that evidence supported a racial theory of intelligence whereby blacks are less intelligent than asians; therefore, 3) the statement "blacks are less intelligent than asians" is (hypothetically) true.

Shodan wasn't so careful to remind you that statement 2 was written into the hypothetical. Or maybe Shodan really believes there is evidence that blacks are less intelligent than asians. It's hard to say since he quit the thread when you called him out the first time. I think it is clear from his posts in this thread that he spent at least a few minutes wondering why African Americans, on average, have low test scores in school.

Personally, I think it is a problem of character, and character is developed by culture, and I think certain prevalent strains of "black culture" don't put an emphasis on education. I use scare quotes around "black culture" because it is a nebulous term to begin with, and bum culture ("school doesn't matter") transcends racial lines. It just happens to be that in my experience African American slang, music, identification with stereotypes, etc. was disproportionately popular among lower performing students, who were disproportionately black, who would point to their culture when asked why they don't care about school: my parents don't care about my grades, they just want me away from gangs/drugs/jail; I don't feel smart/confident or I don't care; my idols don't care about school, and the one that did turned out to be a horrible person (Bill Cosby); even if I did care about school, I wouldn't get anywhere because I can't afford college; even if I could afford college, I wouldn't get in because of discrimination; even if I did get through college, I wouldn't get hired/payed well because of discrimination; even if I got through all of that, I would probably end up getting shot by some cop for no reason at all.

I really don't care whether my opinion on low African American test scores constitutes racism or classism or neither, because I don't approach the question on whether my opinion is moral based on whether
Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22150573)
This is like asking "if the Nazis were right about the Jews, was it okay to kill them all?" My brain is literally unable to process this. Races aren't and can't be inferior -- this is beyond the realm of possibility. It's not how the world works. And it's as horrifying as asking about whether it'd be okay to molest children if they all wanted it. I can't process it, and the idea of processing it is horrifying.

Whereas I have no issue compartmentalizing my thoughts to address an abstract question. If the Nazis were (morally) "right about the Jews", which they weren't, it does not necessarily follow that every Jew should die. It would depend on what specifically they were right about.

For me, racism is wrong because it is an unjustified and harmful overgeneralization - it is generally wrong to discriminate against somebody on the basis of involuntary affiliation such as race; because the affiliation is involuntary, the person has done nothing to deserve discrimination; therefore, except the rare case where race is relevant, racism is both unjustified and harmful and therefore wrong.
Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22150573)
This (assumptions/hypotheses of racial inferiority) is the worst stuff in humanity and human history, and entertaining it as reasonable discussion is disgustingly immoral -- about the worst kind of thing that can be discussed. Yes, I do ascribe bad faith to those that entertain the possibility that racist claims might be true. There's no more possibility of good faith in this than in entertaining the possibility that these kids are just horny little monkeys who are asking to be molested.

This line of hypotheticals, "what if blacks really are dumber" or "what if Nazis were right about Jews?" can be used as a lead-in to apartheid or Nazi sympathism, I will grant that. It can be used to develop the above definition or morality of racism. Since you can call out the sympathism when it surfaces, I don't see the need to ascribe bad faith based solely on a want to discuss the morality of racism.

I'm not above defending Nazis in hypotheticals, by the way. It's happened before on these forums. Your example with child molestation isn't beyond the pale, especially if we were talking about say statutory rape with respect to teenagers. Even though I am against Nazis and in favor of statutory rape laws, I think it's a good thing to help someone else understand my thinking, and for me to understand theirs. I have no issue contemplating these questions in good faith, although at your suggestion I can acknowledge that... perhaps you do.

~Max

iiandyiiii 02-23-2020 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max S. (Post 22154945)
I struck the word "true" because it was superfluous. 1) A statement is true because it is supported by evidence; 2) it was (hypothetically) given that evidence supported a racial theory of intelligence whereby blacks are less intelligent than asians; therefore, 3) the statement "blacks are less intelligent than asians" is (hypothetically) true.



Shodan wasn't so careful to remind you that statement 2 was written into the hypothetical. Or maybe Shodan really believes there is evidence that blacks are less intelligent than asians. It's hard to say since he quit the thread when you called him out the first time. I think it is clear from his posts in this thread that he spent at least a few minutes wondering why African Americans, on average, have low test scores in school.



Personally, I think it is a problem of character, and character is developed by culture, and I think certain prevalent strains of "black culture" don't put an emphasis on education. I use scare quotes around "black culture" because it is a nebulous term to begin with, and bum culture ("school doesn't matter") transcends racial lines. It just happens to be that in my experience African American slang, music, identification with stereotypes, etc. was disproportionately popular among lower performing students, who were disproportionately black, who would point to their culture when asked why they don't care about school: my parents don't care about my grades, they just want me away from gangs/drugs/jail; I don't feel smart/confident or I don't care; my idols don't care about school, and the one that did turned out to be a horrible person (Bill Cosby); even if I did care about school, I wouldn't get anywhere because I can't afford college; even if I could afford college, I wouldn't get in because of discrimination; even if I did get through college, I wouldn't get hired/payed well because of discrimination; even if I got through all of that, I would probably end up getting shot by some cop for no reason at all.



I really don't care whether my opinion on low African American test scores constitutes racism or classism or neither, because I don't approach the question on whether my opinion is moral based on whether



Whereas I have no issue compartmentalizing my thoughts to address an abstract question. If the Nazis were (morally) "right about the Jews", which they weren't, it does not necessarily follow that every Jew should die. It would depend on what specifically they were right about.



For me, racism is wrong because it is an unjustified and harmful overgeneralization - it is generally wrong to discriminate against somebody on the basis of involuntary affiliation such as race; because the affiliation is involuntary, the person has done nothing to deserve discrimination; therefore, except the rare case where race is relevant, racism is both unjustified and harmful and therefore wrong.



This line of hypotheticals, "what if blacks really are dumber" or "what if Nazis were right about Jews?" can be used as a lead-in to apartheid or Nazi sympathism, I will grant that. It can be used to develop the above definition or morality of racism. Since you can call out the sympathism when it surfaces, I don't see the need to ascribe bad faith based solely on a want to discuss the morality of racism.



I'm not above defending Nazis in hypotheticals, by the way. It's happened before on these forums. Your example with child molestation isn't beyond the pale, especially if we were talking about say statutory rape with respect to teenagers. Even though I am against Nazis and in favor of statutory rape laws, I think it's a good thing to help someone else understand my thinking, and for me to understand theirs. I have no issue contemplating these questions in good faith, although at your suggestion I can acknowledge that... perhaps you do.



~Max

I go into my beliefs and understanding regarding racial test score disparities in posts 235 and 236.

I think we have some very different understandings of racism and related issues. I think it's neither possible nor desirable to approach these issues dispassionately, without taking morality and even history into account. I don't think bad faith is the only possibility for bringing up these kinds of hypotheticals, but considering morality and history, I find it hard to imagine any explanation aside from either bad faith or ignorance of this history and morality.

As far as Shodan, I can't read his mind, only his posts. While that old post is concerning to me, the most recent one above is quite thoughtful (aside from the snarking insults) and interesting, even as I disagree with much of it, and I wish he'd put that kind of effort into all his posts on this kind of topic, rather than the lazy one liners that reek (to me, anyway) of contempt and worse.

iiandyiiii 02-23-2020 06:20 PM

nm

iiandyiiii 02-25-2020 10:29 AM

Sad that Shodan hasn't followed up on his interesting post #233 (and my replies). I still have hope for you, Shodan!

Gyrate 02-25-2020 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 22148160)
Several times, over the years, in various discussions about race, racism, and intelligence, I had asked Shodan directly whether he thought black people were inherently inferior, on average, in intelligence. He always refused to answer, and I suspected this was because he thought the answer was "yes" but was afraid to say so.

Looking back at some old threads, I found one in which he does appear to answer the question as yes, quite clearly, in fact, though perhaps without realizing it (and indeed I may not have realized it at the time either!): https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=136

So, at least in 2013, Shodan appears to have believed that those spreading the "Blacks are dumber" gospel were making "true statements". Based on more recent discussions we've had, I don't recall any posts that would suggest he's changed his views, but hopefully I'm incorrect on this. If you no longer believe that "blacks are dumber", Shodan, I hope you'll let us know!

When I read this, I visualize John Oilver hitting his big "We Got Him!" button, to much the same effect as Oliver achieves when he does it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers (Post 22150957)
There's a difference between acting as the devil's advocate and the devil having you on retainer.

So stealing that.

iiandyiiii 02-25-2020 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrate (Post 22158117)
When I read this, I visualize John Oilver hitting his big "We Got Him!" button, to much the same effect as Oliver achieves when he does it.

Ha! I love the visual. I'm also a big fan of Oliver.


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