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-   -   Science says Incels are right about everything. What happens next? (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=879396)

TheFuture 07-27-2019 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible (Post 21773194)
It is healthy to get up off your ass and put in some work to find a partner. Every life-improvement project involves work.

There are plenty of facsimiles. Porn, for instance. But facsimile isn't really enough for you, is it?

It makes sense for YOU to try to accomplish that. Either accomplish it, or accomplish therapy to deal with the disappointment. You are not entitled to have anyone else accomplish it, no matter how much sophistry and wheedling you deploy.

That's more social Darwinism. Again do you believe in social Darwinism across the board? Or just in this area?

A social Darwinist should believe:

- You are not entitled to welfare.
- You are not entitled to health care.
- You are not entitled to housing.
- You are not entitled to job training.
- You are not entitled to education.
- You are not entitled to protection from crime/fire.

ie. Everyone has to survive and accomplish everything on their own merit and no one deserves help with anything.

But in most countries we decided people WERE entitled to those things because it made sense to try to help them and give those things to everyone. Why can't we extend that to love, sex, and relationships and try to make that work?

You also seem to suffer from the same diseased and mentally crippled notion that this means "someone has to get raped". I already said sex robots for example would be a perfect solution. So why would that be a problem? I also suggested therapeutic sex workers like they have in Britain and support groups might help. Why wouldn't that be better than just telling people to suffer until they kill themselves and quit whining about it?

Porn is not even necessarily good for people. Search "depression porn" and you will find lots of people saying porn causes depression. It's been a common subject in the media lately. A lot of guys are trying to quit porn.

But go ahead and tell me how evil I am for saying we ought to try to help these people. Your perspective of just telling them to go jerk off and die in a corner is so much more compassionate.

StarvingButStrong 07-27-2019 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bump (Post 21772147)
So what if science somehow proves them right about what women want in men?

It isn't going to make them or their attitudes suck any less.

Uh? It 'sucks' if women dares to have preferences? All women must be equally open to all men as sexual partners, regardless of looks, personality, height, wealth, athletic ability/whatever?

How is this any different from the flip side? Just on that website it lists that men prefer women who are slender and no older than 18. How is it that men having preferences in partners is apparently 'only natural', while if a woman has a preference it's sucky and unfair and whatever??

Great Antibob 07-27-2019 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773356)
But go ahead and tell me how evil I am for saying we ought to try to help these people.

How are you missing the point so badly? I realize you are partly trolling, but it's difficult for me to comprehend somebody so sociopathic they cannot manifest the basic empathy so understand another person's POV.

It's not evil to want to help people.

It's evil to assume the way to help these assholes is by ignoring their clear psychological issues by telling women they (1) are objects who have no actual agency of their own in choosing partners and are merely brainlessly following inbuilt biological imperatives, (2) should therefore be forced to be treated as objects (still with no agency of their own) by more different men, and (3) they should ignore any of the massive red flags (violence being a pretty big fucking flag) manifested at disturbingly frequency by this group.

It's still further evil to assume these men have no agency of their own and their problems are mostly or entirely physical when (1) there are solutions that do not involve treating women as chattel, (2) their actual issue isn't with a lack of physical intimacy but with their perceived access to 'attractive' (however they define this) women, and (3) their preferred solution involves waiting for their personal manic pixie dream girl to simply fall into their laps while they whine on the internet.

Help isn't telling them "ok, we'll take your assumptions at face value - here's a woman to use as you will". Help is dealing with their obvious and troubling psychological issues, which are exacerbated by modern society and by enablers telling them they are "right".

TheFuture 07-27-2019 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Antibob (Post 21773405)
How are you missing the point so badly? I realize you are partly trolling, but it's difficult for me to comprehend somebody so sociopathic they cannot manifest the basic empathy so understand another person's POV.

It's not evil to want to help people.

It's evil to assume the way to help these assholes is by ignoring their clear psychological issues by telling women they (1) are objects who have no actual agency of their own in choosing partners and are merely brainlessly following inbuilt biological imperatives, (2) should therefore be forced to be treated as objects (still with no agency of their own) by more different men, and (3) they should ignore any of the massive red flags (violence being a pretty big fucking flag) manifested at disturbingly frequency by this group.

It's still further evil to assume these men have no agency of their own and their problems are mostly or entirely physical when (1) there are solutions that do not involve treating women as chattel, (2) their actual issue isn't with a lack of physical intimacy but with their perceived access to 'attractive' (however they define this) women, and (3) their preferred solution involves waiting for their personal manic pixie dream girl to simply fall into their laps while they whine on the internet.

Help isn't telling them "ok, we'll take your assumptions at face value - here's a woman to use as you will". Help is dealing with their obvious and troubling psychological issues, which are exacerbated by modern society and by enablers telling them they are "right".

- Evolutionary biology says we are all following our inbuilt biological imperatives (both men and women). Should that be outlawed?
- No one has to be treated like an object, but I know lots of guys who get laid every few weekends with different girls that treat women like objects, so that's not unique.
- Of course we should recognize negative thoughts being manifested by the group - that's the entire point.
- The most awfully depressing section on that page in my opinion was the section on autism which is not physical or curable.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-l...taboo-10792163

Again, there's an article on guys who would be involuntarily celibate (in the correct broad definition) and are getting help for it.

____________

Some of Marianne's clients are young men, others are spending their pensions, some are married.

And some are disabled .

It's no big deal to her or them - they may need a little longer to get undressed or she might have to visit them at home as her house wasn't built with disabled access in mind.

But they all leave her content, she explains: “Most of my disabled clients have repeat visits so I assume they are happy.

“I saw a man with a brain injury about three or four times.

“He was very happy and smiled a lot after and his carer said he looked forward to seeing me.”

This week, author Kathy Lette and model Katie Price, whose children both suffer from autism, spoke about taking their boys to a sex worker so they could experience the intimacy the rest of us take for granted .

It's a taboo subject for many but for those disabled people who struggle to make physical connections with others, sexual contact gives enormous pleasure.

____________

Where does that fit into the crazy shit you're talking about? Why is what she did there for that man by her own free will and choice so evil?

And let's say on the science of autism they ARE right? You say we shouldn't "enable" them by agreeing even with the things they're right about?

JohnT 07-27-2019 11:08 AM

I do not think anything, anything, highlights the Internet's power to amplify, and even create, mental disorders than the Incel movement.

Darren Garrison 07-27-2019 11:09 AM

At this point, what are the odds that this isn't Sammy? Should you freeze incel's heads until billions of tiny robots can upload them to the internet?

Atamasama 07-27-2019 11:18 AM

Part of the problem with this discussion is that there are different definitions of “incel”.

1) Actual involuntarily celibate people. This will be extremely rare. I’m sure there are people who just cannot have sexual intercourse who want to, due to physical and/or mental handicaps, and so forth. But again, these will be rare.

2) People who feel like they are involuntarily celibate (they think they are Type 1). The term “incel” arose from such a group, founded by a woman who felt like she was unable to find a person to have sex with them. In reality, what these people actually mean is that the people they want to have sex with won’t have sex with them. This group contains men and women who, ironically, interact online about how they can’t have sex. (Why won’t they hook up with each other then? Because they don’t want to. Involuntary my ass.)

3) Incel culture. This grew out of the Type 2 incel group, and even hijacked the original incel forum. This is the group that most of the people in this thread are objecting to. They are misogynistic, sometimes endorse violence, and have embraced the aforementioned killers as heroes. They feel like victims that are owed something from women, and are bitter and entitled. It’s a toxic, horrible group.

I pity the Type 1 people. I understand the Type 2 people, because I’ve felt like that at times in my life, but I also know how full of crap they are (and I was). The Type 3 people are sick and twisted, and need serious therapy, not a bunch of like-minded sickos who will enable and egg on one another.

Kobal2 07-27-2019 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773356)
That's more social Darwinism. Again do you believe in social Darwinism across the board? Or just in this area?


Do you hand over your wallet to every panhandler you come across ? Cuz if not, thass Social Darwinismn boo ! I mean it's not, but it is by your definition of the idiom.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 21773505)
I do not think anything, anything, highlights the Internet's power to amplify, and even create, mental disorders than the Incel movement.

Here, I'll try to show you guys what I mean. This is the BBC documentary I was talking about:

https://youtu.be/nZ5Jlx8MTp8?t=1032

Flip through the parts where they interview the three incels and see if you can notice what's off about them. I'll summarize my impression of them:

1) Catfish guy - Obviously fucking insane. Thinks he's an "incel supervillain" for catfishing women. DEFINITELY something wrong with him mentally, and I'm not talking about just the behavior. Even if he wasn't catfishing women, listen to how he talks and tell me if this is a normal person or not. He very clearly is not normal. He doesn't talk normally. He doesn't laugh at the normal times. etc. He either has autism or some other sort of mental disability that runs way deeper than his catfishing. I mean his brain is not normal.

2) Matt - Really good looking guy. I'd say average to above average facially in my opinion, but he comes off exactly like Sheldon from Big Bang and I bet he has Asperger's (ie. high functioning autism) which is the same thing Elliot Rodger had. He sounds like a typical Sperg.

3) James - At least average or above looking. By his own telling and it fits looking at him he had a bad childhood and developed paranoia and anxiety that prevented him from interacting with women and now he's 31 and never kissed or been romantic with a girl before.

2/3 of those guys didn't have any hate. Matt talked about how he uses incel forums for connection. I honestly believe of those three James or Matt might be fixable cases but not for sure. The fact that James hasn't gotten better in 31 years from his mental problems should tell you it's not that easy to just fix a mental problem. He obviously understands the issues but he still can't fix them. Matt's good looking enough so MAYBE he can get a really homely woman or a girl who can put up with his Aspie "quirkiness". Definitely if he flew to Thailand he'd get a girl there just based on his looks/race. Catfishman is too broken.

Do you see this video and think "These are all monsters who need to be put down!" I mean honestly, if all the bullshit about them all being mass murderers was correct, wouldn't there be a death toll in the tens of thousands by now?

Kobal2 07-27-2019 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21773532)
2) People who feel like they are involuntarily celibate (they think they are Type 1). The term “incel” arose from such a group, founded by a woman who felt like she was unable to find a person to have sex with them. In reality, what these people actually mean is that the people they want to have sex with won’t have sex with them. This group contains men and women who, ironically, interact online about how they can’t have sex. (Why won’t they hook up with each other then? Because they don’t want to. Involuntary my ass.)


That's really the crux of the "issue". Neverminding all the toxic bollocks that come with the culture ; if literally all you want, seek, expect or require of a relationship is sex, with a person of either sex, recreation (for the purpose of) : you don't even need money. All you need do is lower your standards. No, lower than that. Lower. I SAID LOWER. Theeeere you go. Now get to the nearest bar 'round 2 AM and make a decision you'll possibly not even regret.

Jimmy Chitwood 07-27-2019 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773543)
Do you see this video and think "These are all monsters who need to be put down!" I mean honestly, if all the bullshit about them all being mass murderers was correct, wouldn't there be a death toll in the tens of thousands by now?

Just a reminder that nobody knows what your actual point is here, if you have one, because you're arguing against stuff nobody has said. They can have sex robots if they want. Nobody has proposed the death penalty. What has been said repeatedly is nobody is entitled to another human being submitting to an unhealthy relationship just because the first person really wants it. Which means nobody is entitled to a relationship, period.

High functioning autism and Asperger's are not the same thing, FYI.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood (Post 21773559)
Just a reminder that nobody knows what your actual point is here, if you have one, because you're arguing against stuff nobody has said. They can have sex robots if they want. Nobody has proposed the death penalty. What has been said repeatedly is nobody is entitled to another human being submitting to an unhealthy relationship just because the first person really wants it. Which means nobody is entitled to a relationship, period.

Okay. But that doesn't address what I said which is that there are other solutions that could be offered by society other than just saying this over and over.

Also:

"Asperger’s syndrome is part of the autism spectrum disorder, also known as ASD. According to medical experts, it is a mild form of autism and generally manifests without extreme mental disabilities. The main outward characteristics of a person with Asperger’s syndrome are poor social skills, lacking nonverbal communication, and being clumsy."

https://www.activebeat.com/your-heal...gers-syndrome/

JohnT 07-27-2019 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773543)
Here, I'll try to show you guys what I mean. This is the BBC documentary I was talking about:

https://youtu.be/nZ5Jlx8MTp8?t=1032

Flip through the parts where they interview the three incels and see if you can notice what's off about them. I'll summarize my impression of them:

1) Catfish guy - Obviously fucking insane. Thinks he's an "incel supervillain" for catfishing women. DEFINITELY something wrong with him mentally, and I'm not talking about just the behavior. Even if he wasn't catfishing women, listen to how he talks and tell me if this is a normal person or not. He very clearly is not normal. He doesn't talk normally. He doesn't laugh at the normal times. etc. He either has autism or some other sort of mental disability that runs way deeper than his catfishing. I mean his brain is not normal.

2) Matt - Really good looking guy. I'd say average to above average facially in my opinion, but he comes off exactly like Sheldon from Big Bang and I bet he has Asperger's (ie. high functioning autism) which is the same thing Elliot Rodger had. He sounds like a typical Sperg.

3) James - At least average or above looking. By his own telling and it fits looking at him he had a bad childhood and developed paranoia and anxiety that prevented him from interacting with women and now he's 31 and never kissed or been romantic with a girl before.

2/3 of those guys didn't have any hate. Matt talked about how he uses incel forums for connection. I honestly believe of those three James or Matt might be fixable cases but not for sure. The fact that James hasn't gotten better in 31 years from his mental problems should tell you it's not that easy to just fix a mental problem. He obviously understands the issues but he still can't fix them. Matt's good looking enough so MAYBE he can get a really homely woman or a girl who can put up with his Aspie "quirkiness". Definitely if he flew to Thailand he'd get a girl there just based on his looks/race. Catfishman is too broken.

Do you see this video and think "These are all monsters who need to be put down!" I mean honestly, if all the bullshit about them all being mass murderers was correct, wouldn't there be a death toll in the tens of thousands by now?

Not knowing what you said, you said it. Thank you.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 21773592)
Not knowing what you said, you said it. Thank you.

You're welcome. So how do you propose we cure autism and other incurable mental conditions that the psychiatric community has failed at for decades of these people's lives, fix their loneliness/suicidality/isolation, and let them experience approximations of some normal life experiences like affection/sex?

Darren Garrison 07-27-2019 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2 (Post 21773555)
All you need do is lower your standards. No, lower than that. Lower. I SAID LOWER. Theeeere you go. Now get to the nearest bar 'round 2 AM and make a decision you'll possibly not even regret.


So this should be their theme song? (I bet that Willie doesn't play that one much anymore!)

Darren Garrison 07-27-2019 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773607)
You're welcome. So how do you propose we cure autism and other incurable mental conditions that the psychiatric community has failed at for decades of these people's lives, fix their loneliness/suicidality/isolation, and let them experience approximations of some normal life experiences like affection/sex?

Life sucks in some ways for lots of people. Some can't walk and it can't be cured. Some can't see and it can't be cured. Name anything that baseline people can do, and there will be people that can't do it and it can't be cured.

Atamasama 07-27-2019 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2 (Post 21773555)
That's really the crux of the "issue". Neverminding all the toxic bollocks that come with the culture ; if literally all you want, seek, expect or require of a relationship is sex, with a person of either sex, recreation (for the purpose of) : you don't even need money. All you need do is lower your standards. No, lower than that. Lower. I SAID LOWER. Theeeere you go. Now get to the nearest bar 'round 2 AM and make a decision you'll possibly not even regret.

Even the term “lower your standards” is a misnomer. Incels, who feel like the world is shallow and discriminates against them for their appearance, are shallow and discriminate against potential partners because of their appearance. The “perfect 10” person they want to sleep with or even have a relationship with might be a miserable person they have nothing in common with. The person who doesn’t look perfect might be a better match. What incels don’t get is that as you get to know a person, and you are compatible, they will become more physically attractive to you. And vice versa.

It’s not that their standards are high, their standards are wrong.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darren Garrison (Post 21773619)
Life sucks in some ways for lots of people. Some can't walk and it can't be cured. Some can't see and it can't be cured. Name anything that baseline people can do, and there will be people that can't do it and it can't be cured.

Yeah and we can find ways to make people's suffering less. Did you read the Mirror article I linked?

What would be wrong with permitting the existence for example an industry of Sex Therapists like her who enjoy and take pride in her work because it gives people something they can't get otherwise? Imagine she goes over James' house, she gives him a smile, hugs him, kisses him, and asks him how he is doing. She goes in and they sit on the couch for a bit and cuddle. She asks him some simple questions to show an interest in him and talks a bit. Then they have sex. They hang out a bit more. After the hour is up, she leaves and says "See you next week/month/whatever."

Do you really believe that wouldn't help a lot of guys going through this type of situation? How could it not help at least some?

If a woman chooses of her own autonomy to do this work then that is her choice to make. I don't see why the law should prohibit it or why people don't talk about these sorts of things like they wouldn't help. It's not that you can't get a prostitute nowadays most places - it's that it's illegal so you can actually go to jail for it, and the stigma is huge. Most of our culture tells men if you have to pay for sex you should be ashamed of yourself. But I don't think that's how it should be at all. Prostitution has been around forever and it will remain forever.

What do you think? In 50 years sex robots might be good enough this will be irrelevant but until then you're gonna end up with a lot more incels if the trends continue.

Jimmy Chitwood 07-27-2019 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773568)
Okay. But that doesn't address what I said which is that there are other solutions that could be offered by society other than just saying this over and over.

Sometimes, I find that if people keep saying the same thing to me over and over, it's because I'm missing something. In other words: go on. What is your point, and how has it not been adequately addressed by the many people saying "sure, but there are all these options available that are neither suicide nor the indentured servitude of a suitably attractive human woman?"

Quote:

Also:

"Asperger’s syndrome is part of the autism spectrum disorder, also known as ASD. According to medical experts, it is a mild form of autism and generally manifests without extreme mental disabilities. The main outward characteristics of a person with Asperger’s syndrome are poor social skills, lacking nonverbal communication, and being clumsy."

https://www.activebeat.com/your-heal...gers-syndrome/
You said "i.e. high functioning autism." High functioning autism is a thing, and Asperger's is a thing too. They're not the same, and what you just quoted doesn't say they're the same. All ducks are birds, not all birds are ducks, etc.

JohnT 07-27-2019 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773607)
You're welcome. So how do you propose we cure autism and other incurable mental conditions that the psychiatric community has failed at for decades of these people's lives, fix their loneliness/suicidality/isolation, and let them experience approximations of some normal life experiences like affection/sex?

Not to be glib, but getting off the internet can do wonders to improve one's mental health and outlook. Nowadays, it's almost the same thing as saying "I need different friends". So if you don't want to view yourself as an incel... don't hang out with incels?

Anyway, why go to a group of guys who admittedly can't get a date... for advice on how to get women? I don't discuss fucking with my priest, so why discuss the same with... well... incels?

TheFuture 07-27-2019 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood (Post 21773643)
Sometimes, I find that if people keep saying the same thing to me over and over, it's because I'm missing something. In other words: go on. What is your point, and how has it not been adequately addressed by the many people saying "sure, but there are all these options available that are neither suicide nor the indentured servitude of a suitably attractive human woman?"

If everyone agrees with what I said, why is it illegal for them to be able to pay a willing sex therapy worker like I described then?

Kobal2 07-27-2019 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama
Even the term “lower your standards” is a misnomer. Incels, who feel like the world is shallow and discriminates against them for their appearance, are shallow and discriminate against potential partners because of their appearance. The “perfect 10” person they want to sleep with or even have a relationship with might be a miserable person they have nothing in common with. The person who doesn’t look perfect might be a better match. What incels don’t get is that as you get to know a person, and you are compatible, they will become more physically attractive to you. And vice versa.

It’s not that their standards are high, their standards are wrong.


I mean yes, obviously. And just as obviously there's way more to a fulfilling relationship than just sex (although obviously if he/she/they can suck your Adam's apple all the way down, no points are deducted) and for any kind of long term thing being mentally compatible is a whole lot more important than just looking nice on Instagram and so on and so forth.


But that's not really what the incel community is about, either. The gist of it is : they feel like they deserve sex for being [whatever], and not just sex but sex from pornstar-looking chicks. While at the same time looking down on pornstar-looking chicks. The whole thing is hypocritical as hell from the get go (and then they build upon it). And I'm saying this as a guy who fell from the ugly tree, hit every branch on the way down, shook himself up and said "Oh yeah ? Well fuck you ! Hold m'beer you guys, watch this" before climbing back up.

Emiliana 07-27-2019 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctordean (Post 21773550)
Thank you for helping people getting the information. An educational website That makes your life easy by having each and every information about education in one place. Feel free to visit https://www.bestforstudy.com https://www.bestforstudy.com

Another day at the Dope. Two obvious socks and incel trolling.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emiliana (Post 21773667)
Another day at the Dope. Two obvious socks and incel trolling.

Of course it would have to be trolling to talk about this issue. Only a troll would give a shit about whether young men are becoming increasingly lonely, depressed, sexually frustrated, hateful, isolated, and suicidal or want to reflect on why or how to fix it.

Kobal2 07-27-2019 12:53 PM

Well, sure. Hope that helps.

Sunny Daze 07-27-2019 12:56 PM

As far as I can tell, the entire thread boils down to: society must provide women to men, so that men can fuck them.

This is very, very wrong. It is wrong no matter how many times and ways you say "but biology".

HMS Irruncible 07-27-2019 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773356)
That's more social Darwinism. Again do you believe in social Darwinism across the board? Or just in this area?

ie. Everyone has to survive and accomplish everything on their own merit and no one deserves help with anything.

I will say I believe in providing services where society has a legitimate interest. Society needs healthy, educated workers, so we need healthcare and education. Society has no corresponding interest in delivering sex to people who apparently spend all their time convincing themselves that society needs to deliver them sex.

Quote:

I already said sex robots for example would be a perfect solution. So why would that be a problem? I also suggested therapeutic sex workers like they have in Britain and support groups might help.
If you were being honest here, you'd be sharing more links on to create the perfect sex robot, or in social policy around sex work. Shouldn't incels actually be working on that? Maybe they could get together and solve those things. But instead they focus on how the evil conspiracy of chads and stacys that keeps them from getting what they're entitled to. You're not after sex surrogates.

JohnT 07-27-2019 01:00 PM

How To Fix Being An Incel, in 4 Steps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773674)
Of course it would have to be trolling to talk about this issue. Only a troll would give a shit about whether young men are becoming increasingly lonely, depressed, sexually frustrated, hateful, isolated, and suicidal or want to reflect on why or how to fix it.

1. Get off the Internet
2. Don't hang out with others with the same problems
3. Say "hello" to women who fall roughly on the same part of the "looks spectrum" as you do
4. Get a therapist for the real problem... the autism, etc... and not the situations which arise from it (like an "incel therapist for autistic people").

So... try the above. See what happens.

Or you can stay on the internet and whine and perpetuate the problem. Your choice

TheFuture 07-27-2019 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2 (Post 21773694)
Well, sure. Hope that helps.

Why don't you tell me what I actually said in this thread that was so controversial or trolling then? No one has even disagreed with me on anything so far that I recall except on my definition of the word "incel", where I used the same one that was used in the BBC documentary and all those 2018/2019 articles I linked.

Also concern trolling requires visiting a site with a "different ideology". Since when is Straight Dope's ideology anything but the pursuit of truth? That's why I posted it here. If I was expecting this type of response I wouldn't have bothered. This has been absolutely pointless. I thought people here could either validate or disprove the science and then if it wasn't disproven, we could have a discussion about ways we could fix the problem. Obviously I was mistaken.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible (Post 21773701)
I will say I believe in providing services where society has a legitimate interest. Society needs healthy, educated workers, so we need healthcare and education. Society has no corresponding interest in delivering sex to people who apparently spend all their time convincing themselves that society needs to deliver them sex.

If you were being honest here, you'd be sharing more links on to create the perfect sex robot, or in social policy around sex work. Shouldn't incels actually be working on that? Maybe they could get together and solve those things. But instead they focus on how the evil conspiracy of chads and stacys that keeps them from getting what they're entitled to. You're not after sex surrogates.

So you don't think this woman is providing people a real benefit or valid service?

Also wtf? In order to start a discussion about fixing the incel problem I need to be a Boston Dynamics engineer posting schematics on servos, etc.?

Why don't you think sex surrogates should be legal or why don't you think they'd help at least some men? Why isn't that at least one valid option to consider? You can't force women to fuck men they don't want to. But you can compensate them and allow them to do it of their own free will for money. There's nothing unethical about that. It's a simple voluntary consensual exchange.

Sunny Daze 07-27-2019 01:05 PM

I believe people have disagreed with you about everything. The word "incel" is the least of it.

Kobal2 07-27-2019 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773704)
Why don't you tell me what I actually said in this thread that was so controversial or trolling then? No one has even disagreed with me on anything so far that I recall except on my definition of the word "incel", where I used the same one that was used in the BBC documentary and all those 2018/2019 articles I linked.

Also concern trolling requires visiting a site with a "different ideology". Since when is Straight Dope's ideology anything but the pursuit of truth? That's why I posted it here. If I was expecting this type of response I wouldn't have bothered. This has been absolutely pointless. I thought people here could either validate or disprove the science and then if it wasn't disproven, we could have a discussion about ways we could fix the problem. Obviously I was mistaken.


How about "No."
Furthermore, how about "Fuck off".

TheFuture 07-27-2019 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunny Daze (Post 21773713)
I believe people have disagreed with you about everything. The word "incel" is the least of it.

Specifically what? I've now written 54 pointless posts in this pointless thread.

Quote me where I said something that was provably factually wrong or blatantly inflammatory besides the title of this thread which was admittedly perhaps a bit overly sensationalistic.

Vinyl Turnip 07-27-2019 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773704)
Since when is Straight Dope's ideology anything but the pursuit of truth?

It must be discouraging to see this forum change in so many ways over time, to the extent that it risks abandoning its core principles, since you joined yesterday.

Sunny Daze 07-27-2019 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773724)
Specifically what? I've now written 54 pointless posts in this pointless thread.

Quote me where I said something that was provably factually wrong or blatantly inflammatory besides the title of this thread which was admittedly perhaps a bit overly sensationalistic.

You are correct (finally). Every post of yours in this thread is pointless. No sex slaves for you.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunny Daze (Post 21773756)
You are correct (finally). Every post of yours in this thread is pointless. No sex slaves for you.

At no point have I said anything about sex slaves, nor do I believe that anyone should have sex slaves. I specifically have said I don't believe you can force anyone to have sex with anyone else multiple times.

Who is trolling now?

running coach 07-27-2019 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773767)
At no point have I said anything about sex slaves, nor do I believe that anyone should have sex slaves. I specifically have said I don't believe you can force anyone to have sex with anyone else multiple times.

Who is trolling now?

Of course not. You expect them to be shared.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by running coach (Post 21773772)
Of course not. You expect them to be shared.

Do you mean that seriously? Or are you trolling? Ie. Do you believe that's what legalized prostitution represents? Shared sex slavery?

I think as long as a woman makes the choice to do that for a living, it is her right and autonomy. It's only a problem if someone forces her, but from what I've seen on sex worker documentaries, that's actually pretty rare. I think most women are in the line of work by some choice of their own.

Kobal2 07-27-2019 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773777)
Do you mean that seriously? Or are you trolling? Ie. Do you believe that's what legalized prostitution represents? Shared sex slavery?

I think as long as a woman makes the choice to do that for a living, it is her right and autonomy. It's only a problem if someone forces her, but from what I've seen on sex worker documentaries, that's actually pretty rare.


Objection : capitalism, bro. System itself forces her regardless of any more direct coercion. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and there sure as shit ain't no ethical paid blowjob.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2 (Post 21773790)
Objection : capitalism, bro. System itself forces her regardless of any more direct coercion. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and there sure as shit ain't no ethical paid blowjob.

Yeah but I don't think it's any less ethical than any other part of capitalism. A man who works heavy labor his whole life until his back and knees blow out and ends up in chronic pain hooked on percocets could be said to have been coerced into that disability as well. Capitalism can be ugly in general. But I don't think a capitalist sex market is any uglier than any other part of capitalism.

Some countries do have legal prostitution and it hasn't caused mass social destruction.

Kobal2 07-27-2019 02:06 PM

I would opine that having little choice but to have intimate relationships with people you personally are repulsed by (by your own arguments re:why incels are incels) for money is a lot more damaging to one's psyche, self-respect, self-image, self-whathaveyou than minin' coal. Hell, social tropes glorify the humble, oppressed-but-proud blue collar worker. To whit (great fucking song, BTW).
You come across even a single song singing the pride of sex workers, let alone a rich seam of tropes ? 'cuz the only one I know of is more of a "it's a hard life and all of you cunts look down on them even though they're good people and all of y'all could have been their sons, but for an accident of biology" type thing. It's a beautiful (and funny) song, but hardly glorification.

JohnT 07-27-2019 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip (Post 21773752)
It must be discouraging to see this forum change in so many ways over time, to the extent that it risks abandoning its core principles, since you joined yesterday.

This deserves to be quoted. Well done.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2 (Post 21773814)
I would opine that having little choice but to have intimate relationships with people you personally are repulsed by (by your own arguments re:why incels are incels) for money is a lot more damaging to one's psyche, self-respect, self-image, self-whathaveyou than minin' coal. Hell, social tropes glorify the humble, oppressed-but-proud blue collar worker. To whit (great fucking song, BTW).
You come across even a single song singing the pride of sex workers, let alone a rich seam of tropes ? 'cuz the only one I know of is more of a "it's a hard life and all of you cunts look down on them even though they're good people and all of y'all could have been their sons, but for an accident of biology" type thing. It's a beautiful (and funny) song, but hardly glorification.

Well again, I can only reference the Mirror interview because it summarized the perspective of a woman who was providing sex work to some of what would have been the most physically unattractive men and she still says she enjoys her work because she sees the value in what she does.
______

“My gentleman with learning disabilities used to be really slobbery on my face and it wasn't very pleasant but those are the parts of the job you accept and I think he got a lot out of it.

“I think you have got to have the right combinations of skills to work with disabled people.”

Looking forward, Marianne thinks work needs to be done to break down both the stigma of disability and also of sex work.

She said: “I consider it the last real taboo in British society.

“We talk about breaking down stigma around mental health but also around sex work.

“To the public you are either a high class call girl or a drug addict walking the streets but a lot of us are middle class women fulfilling a real need in society.”

______

Those are her words not mine.

I believe more in individual liberty and personal autonomy than I do in the government babying people and telling them they can't make their own decisions in a case like this.

Voyager 07-27-2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773652)
If everyone agrees with what I said, why is it illegal for them to be able to pay a willing sex therapy worker like I described then?

Too many Bible thumpers, that's why.

JohnT 07-27-2019 02:25 PM

Looks like the future lies in whining on the internet.

Kobal2 07-27-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture
Those are her words not mine.


And of course it couldn't possibly be her rationalizing her circumstances in life, and had she any other realistic/immediate options in life she would absolutely still be selling her arse because... well it's quite obvious, MOVING ON, personal liberty !

Voyager 07-27-2019 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773635)
Yeah and we can find ways to make people's suffering less. Did you read the Mirror article I linked?

What would be wrong with permitting the existence for example an industry of Sex Therapists like her who enjoy and take pride in her work because it gives people something they can't get otherwise? Imagine she goes over James' house, she gives him a smile, hugs him, kisses him, and asks him how he is doing. She goes in and they sit on the couch for a bit and cuddle. She asks him some simple questions to show an interest in him and talks a bit. Then they have sex. They hang out a bit more. After the hour is up, she leaves and says "See you next week/month/whatever."

And pay the receptionist on the way out.
Quote:


What do you think? In 50 years sex robots might be good enough this will be irrelevant but until then you're gonna end up with a lot more incels if the trends continue.
And here's the problem. Incels, and it appears you, seem to have trouble seeing women as people with brains, feelings and emotions. They see women as breasts and vaginas. These women are supposed to feel so grateful about being objectivized that they'll give the incels whatever they want.
I think most of us would not be happy with even a very realistic sex robot, since a real relationship is about a lot more than sex.
Therapists who are legal and who don't screw their clients could help incels with this if they wanted to be helped.
You've also got evolutionary psychology (not Social Darwinism) all wrong. If a guy refuses to reproduce because the women he wants rejects him, he is not successful in evolutionary terms. He's giving himself a non-violent long term Darwin Award. Well deserved.
I worked in a field famous for having lots of people on the autism spectrum. Almost all of us managed to find partners and reproduce. So don't use that as an excuse.

Voyager 07-27-2019 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnT (Post 21773702)
1. Get off the Internet
2. Don't hang out with others with the same problems
3. Say "hello" to women who fall roughly on the same part of the "looks spectrum" as you do
4. Get a therapist for the real problem... the autism, etc... and not the situations which arise from it (like an "incel therapist for autistic people").

So... try the above. See what happens.

Or you can stay on the internet and whine and perpetuate the problem. Your choice

I'd add "treat a woman as a human being, not a body," but if incels followed this advice, there would be fewer of them.

TheFuture 07-27-2019 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2 (Post 21773851)
And of course it couldn't possibly be her rationalizing her circumstances in life, and had she any other realistic/immediate options in life she would absolutely still be selling her arse because... well it's quite obvious, MOVING ON, personal liberty !

Then what standard do you use for allowing people to make decisions if they're not allowed to rationalize their own circumstances how they choose to? The government rationalizes for you? Should the government rationalize all those men out of back-breaking work too? Or that's cool because they have good tunes to listen to? Or rationalize people out of having to clean up bloody remains at crime scenes? Or rationalize people out of working in sewers?

The world will always have ugly jobs to be done. The capitalist solution in general is to compensate people according to supply and demand, so the fewer people willing or able to do a job, the higher the pay scale is to compensate. It makes sense here as much as anywhere else.

Prostitution already has its own capitalist equilibrium where the payscale is established for average male clients accordingly. It's just on the blackmarket now, socially stigmatized, and there's no real niche to it like what that sex worker was describing that might given incel men the kind of feeling for connection or ongoing relationship they might want.

Kobal2 07-27-2019 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFuture (Post 21773870)
It's just on the blackmarket now, socially stigmatized, and there's no real niche to it like what that sex worker was describing that might given incel men the kind of feeling for connection or ongoing relationship they might want.


I'd suggest they (and incels alike) join our vast network of ongoing support groups. It's called "Everyone" and we meet at the bar. Personally, I want a doggo.


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