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Northern Piper 11-30-2019 02:47 AM

Oops - forgot to post the link to The Hill article: Omar comes under scrutiny for 'present' vote on Armenian genocide

Kobal2 11-30-2019 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 22000139)
Sure, no doubt, I even mentioned that. But like the Black Plague, that was neither planned nor systemic.

Again, it was absolutely systemic. Maybe the word you're looking for is systematic ?

Webfoot75 11-30-2019 07:04 PM

Sideways glance
 
Perhaps this is to much off topic, if so sorry. A couple of years ago I asked a Frenchman what he thought of Napoleon. He said that he reformed the education system. It seems to me the difference between Hitler and Napoleon is the Holocaust, but that otherwise they were no different to any other charismatic megalomaniac from Genghis Khan onwards, and backwards, who wanted to rule the world, and brought ruin and death to half the world. My question is, in 200 or so years what will the hoi polloi think of Hitler?

Kobal2 11-30-2019 07:57 PM

I don't think you can meaningfully compare Hitler & Napoleon, and eeeerr no, "the difference" between them is not the Holocaust. There's a thousand differences between the two, their respective contexts, and their legacies.

Cicero 12-01-2019 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck (Post 21990878)
If someone writes a book claiming they are a Holocaust survivor, how would we know they are telling the truth?

There are books from Holocaust survivors and there are also books featuring interviews with Holocaust survivors (One is "We Wept Without Tears").

There are also accounts written by Holocaust non survivors- such as "Matters of Testimony: Interpreting the Scrolls of Auschwitz".

It is difficult to argue with their authenticity although experts do argue about the actual interpretation.

The evidence is ample of the death of a million of Jews at Auschwitz- Birkenau - the many Polish political prisoners, the thousands of gypsies and Soviet prisoners of war, the hundreds of Jehovahs Witnesses and the tens of homosexuals. (see Aushwitz by Laurence Rees).

Then of course there were the extermination camps of Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.

I have no idea why White Supremacists deny it.

pakputeh 12-01-2019 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webfoot75 (Post 22002152)
... no different to any other charismatic megalomaniac from Genghis Khan onwards, and backwards, who wanted to rule the world, and brought ruin and death to half the world. My question is, in 200 or so years what will the hoi polloi think of Hitler?

Genghis Khan was vilified for centuries in the West, even in academia. Starting in the 60s and into the 90s, there was a backlash against what Edward Said called Orientalism. This term refers to the academic tendency to simplify or misinterpret "Eastern" culture and history.

This led to numerous popular works which praised GK's legacy, or at least painted a more complete picture of Mongol expansion and rule. Some have called this period a 'whitewash' of the atrocities committed by the Mongols during this time.

Hitler will not being mentioned in the same context as leaders such as Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Bolivar, or Caesar Augustus, however, revisionism or no.

Even though the territorial gains of Napoleon and the state established by Bolivar largely disintegrated during and after their rule, their impact can still be seen and felt today. The Napoleonic code alone has been enormously influential. We still have a month named after Augustus.

Hitler left nothing behind. The nation he lead was shattered and broken. Nearly nothing he planned lasted beyond his death. Should we balance the construction of an interstate highway system against the deaths of millions?

One cannot rehabilitate a legacy when millions dead is the only legacy.

Jackmannii 12-01-2019 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northern Piper (Post 22001145)
Oops - forgot to post the link to The Hill article: Omar comes under scrutiny for 'present' vote on Armenian genocide

Worse than Omar's flip-flopping is this:
Quote:

Rep. Tom Cole (R-Okla.) criticized the resolution for using “tragedies of the past” to hurt present-day U.S.-Turkish relations.


“There’s no denying that horrific atrocities were committed against the Armenian people by the Ottoman Empire in the midst of the confusion and carnage of the First World War,” he said in a statement to The Hill.
Yeah, things kinda got confused and muddled up there for awhile, so the Turks didn't realize they were wiping out the Armenians. :dubious:
Just don't use the "g" word, it upsets folks.

Chisquirrel 12-01-2019 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackmannii (Post 22002789)
Omar's flip-flopping

This only makes sense if you take her first statement as an outright denial that the Armenian Genocide/Holocaust occurred. She never denied it, but argued that determinations of genocide should not be politically motivated actions determined by elected officials because they're angry with the perpetrators for something happening in the present.

"I think we should demand accountability for human rights abuses consistently, not simply when it suits our political goals."

100 years of ignoring the Armenian Genocide/Holocaust, and NOW we're all concerned about it? Color me cynical - especially as the vote was brought up the same time as sanctions on Turkey - but something smells like bullshit.

Jackmannii 12-02-2019 10:03 AM

Dispatches from the War On Christmas:

Under pressure from Jews, Amazon has taken down a seller listing featuring Nazi concentration camp-themed Xmas ornaments.

And not content with that, the holiday-spoilers are taking aim at another fine product, the Massacre Auschwitcz (sic) Birkenau Jewish death mousepad.

The glad tidings of the season are dimmed by this outrageous censorship. :(

By the way, this was what prompted the comment on Omar's flip-flopping:
Quote:

In a written explanation for her ("present") vote, Omar said that the recognition of genocide and mass atrocities should be done outside politics and “based on academic consensus,” a phrase that Armenian rights groups say Turkish deniers use to sow doubt.

“Rep. Omar's suggestion that there is no ‘academic consensus’ effectively denies the Armenian Genocide,” said Aram Hamparian, executive director of the Armenian National Committee of America. “It basically takes a page from the Turkish Embassy's denial playbook.”

Omar’s office, on Thursday, sought to clarify that the congresswoman was stating she believes there is academic consensus on the fact that the genocide happened, emphasizing that her vote was a protest of the House using the genocide as a “political cudgel.”

Telemark 12-02-2019 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackmannii (Post 22004315)
By the way, this was what prompted the comment on Omar's flip-flopping:

But she never claimed that there was no "academic consensus", just that it should be the guideline used to determine a genocide in contrast to using short-term political gain as a reason. I still don't see a flip-flop.

Chisquirrel 12-02-2019 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackmannii (Post 22004315)
By the way, this was what prompted the comment on Omar's flip-flopping:

Like was said earlier, a tortured reading of her actual words and implications.

RioRico 12-02-2019 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chisquirrel (Post 22004525)
Like was said earlier, a tortured reading of her actual words and implications.

"Tortured readings" are vital to constructing conspiracy theories. Torture some words; invent linkages to other tortured words; these misconstructions and phony connections to other misconstructions are now "facts" upon which more layers of bullshit evidence can be built. Omar has it easy so far; Lisa Page seems a more tortured victim of the process. AFAIK Tramp hasn't yet called out any names of The Squad when faking orgasms at rallies. (See the cite.) Or maybe he has, but no media thought it worth mentioning. Whose names did he scream-out on the Pee Tape?

I'll be impressed astounded when/if GOPs get teary-eyed over the genocides of Roma (gypsies).

Jackmannii 12-02-2019 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RioRico (Post 22005413)
"Tortured readings" are vital to constructing conspiracy theories.

Apparently Armenians, Jews, and a number of Omar's fellow Democrats are part of the grand conspiracy against her.

Wow.

An even better example of Omar's tap-dancing is her suggestion that we shouldn't recognize the Armenian genocide since insufficient attention has been given to black slavery and brutal treatment of Native Americans (a previously cited tactic usually targeting Jews for commemorating the Holocaust)

http://m.startribune.com/abstention-...ers/564138312/

Pro tip: if someone on your "side" does stupid offensive shit they should be called out for it, even if the opposition is gleefully taking advantage of the situation.

Chisquirrel 12-03-2019 12:06 AM

You've really got a bee in your bonnet about Omar, don't you?

You keep giving us what everyone else said about what Omar said while ignoring what she actually said.

As stated before - it's been over a century since the Armenian Genocide, and just now is it SO IMPORTANT to recognize. It takes a truly naive person to believe it's completely unconnected to the sanction vote against Turkey, the perpetrator of said genocide. Omar called it as such, yet you consistently ignore her rationale to, essentially, call her anti-Semitic.

Pro tip: if you have to twist, cut, and ignore someone's words to fit your narrative of offensive, you might want to look at how the narrative is being crafted.

Urbanredneck 12-03-2019 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicero (Post 22002572)
There are books from Holocaust survivors and there are also books featuring interviews with Holocaust survivors (One is "We Wept Without Tears").

There are also accounts written by Holocaust non survivors- such as "Matters of Testimony: Interpreting the Scrolls of Auschwitz".

It is difficult to argue with their authenticity although experts do argue about the actual interpretation.

The evidence is ample of the death of a million of Jews at Auschwitz- Birkenau - the many Polish political prisoners, the thousands of gypsies and Soviet prisoners of war, the hundreds of Jehovahs Witnesses and the tens of homosexuals. (see Aushwitz by Laurence Rees).

Then of course there were the extermination camps of Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.

I have no idea why White Supremacists deny it.

I wasnt talking Holocaust deniers. I was talking about persons just looking to make money writing books with the "I was there" theme.

Lance Turbo 12-04-2019 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackmannii (Post 22005453)
Pro tip: if someone on your "side" does stupid offensive shit they should be called out for it, even if the opposition is gleefully taking advantage of the situation.

Call her out for it.

But call her out for what she actually did. She voted a way you didn't like. Call her out for that. She gave reasons for that vote you don't agree with. Call her out for that.

She did not, however, deny that the genocide occurred. It requires something beyond tortured reading to get from, "Of course we should acknowledge the Genocide,” to denial.

Call her out all you like. But call her out for the things she did.

Ambivalid 12-04-2019 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck (Post 22005837)
I wasnt talking Holocaust deniers. I was talking about persons just looking to make money writing books with the "I was there" theme.

Only people that dont care to do the bare minimum of due diligence would ever fall victim to this kind of fraud. I can think of a couple people like that.

Kobal2 12-04-2019 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck (Post 22005837)
I wasnt talking Holocaust deniers. I was talking about persons just looking to make money writing books with the "I was there" theme.

Is this another Thing That Doesn't Happen But We Should Be Concerned, or can you provide examples ?

Ambivalid 12-04-2019 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2 (Post 22008330)
Is this another Thing That Doesn't Happen But We Should Be Concerned, or can you provide examples ?

But dont you see!!!! Examples cant be provided, because HOW CAN WE EVER KNOW?!!?!!11?

Best just to round up the whole lot and characterize them as no-good liars.


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