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-   -   Avengers: Endgame SEEN IT thread - SPOILERS AHOY! (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=874513)

galen ubal 04-24-2019 04:50 AM

Avengers: Endgame SEEN IT thread - SPOILERS AHOY!
 
First post left mostly blank to avoid mouseover spoiling.

Just one thing - if you're into these movies at all, run don't walk to the theater!

galen ubal 04-24-2019 05:13 AM

Okay, my wife and I saw it this morning, and I'm still tamping it down in my mind. We'll see it again tomorrow afternoon. So this is a little scattershot and stream of consciousness.

First off, you will have to have seen most of the previous MCU films to have any hope of getting what's going on. Marvel is having no pity and making no accomodation for those who haven't.

Three hours went by in a flash - I never felt bored or inclined to look at my watch. It is a truly satisfying end, not only to the Infinity War storyline, but to the character arcs that have been shown in the previous movies. The "core" Avengers - Thor, Cap, Tony, Bruce - get most of the screentime and attention; there's a fair bit of Rocket and Nebula as well. Most of the others get very few lines.
Surprises: Hulk and Banner have come to an accomodation, and are more or less sharing, with Bruce's brain combined with Hulk's body. This was more or less glossed over, in a short scene presenting it as a fait accompli. It's another example of how the MCU is willing and eager to overturn the comic book traditions, along with secret identities and such like.
I was not surprised by Tony dying heroically, especially now that he had a kid. I was surprised that Natasha bought it, after establishing that Clint had been corrupted to a degree by his grief and rage. I thought it was great that Steve got his opportunity for a life, the life he'd always wanted.

I was thrilled when Cap lifted Mjolnir, and amused that Thor seemed equally happy about it. It was just as bad-ass as I'd been hoping.
Speaking of Thor....well, Chris Hemsworth is a masterful comic actor, and his desscent into slobhood was both hysterical and touching. Actually, all of the performances were wonderful. When present-Thor had his talk with his mom, I was both laughing and teary-eyed. Similarly, Tony had his chance to speak with his dad, man-to-man, and lay to rest some of the issues he had.
When all seemed lost at the big battle scene, and all of those gates opened, and all of the people who had been lost to the Snap started pouring in and tearing into Thanos' army - well, that was just another bad-ass moment. The battle scenes were well laid-out, by the way, and pretty easy to follow, despite their massive scale.
Some things that are going to annoy the reactionary types: Steve handing off the shield and title to Sam Wilson, and the final charge with the Infinity Gauntlet toward the quantum truck by just about every female character thus far - and no men. Women saving the day?!?

Still, the important moments were character moments. Whether it be Tony bitterly blaming Steve at the beginning, or their coming together in the middle, or the conversations about loss that intersperse the whole movie - well, that's the heart and soul of the movie, literally.

I'll come back to this later, I'm sure, with more thoughts. This is a dense movie, and I'm a poor communicator at best.

rocking chair 04-24-2019 09:01 AM

I have pacing questions.

when would be the best time to "skip to the loo"?

should one buy a large beverage, how should that be paced? what would be considered the half way mark?

GuanoLad 04-24-2019 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocking chair (Post 21606302)
should one buy a large beverage, how should that be paced? what would be considered the half way mark?

The first half is slower paced, it settles in with the various consequences of the snap. Once Tony returns to the Avengers Building it starts to ramp up with action and comedy you ought not to miss. So somewhere around when Scott Lang is struggling with his taco.

dropzone 04-24-2019 12:35 PM

Spoilers!

1. It starts out with Hawkeye playing a trick on Winchester by putting ketchup on his ham sandwich instead of Grey Poupon.

2. There was an epidemic of upper respiratory disease in China so I heard more coughing than dialog.

3. It was filmed entirely in lo-res shaky cam as if on somebody's phone.

shantih 04-24-2019 12:57 PM

I saw it last night as part of a double feature with Infinity War first and then Endgame right after midnight. Gotta say, I loved it! The pacing of the story was not at all what I was expecting, in a good way. Going after Thanos and taking brutal revenge on him right at the start, and then giving the surviving characters 5 years to let the consequences of his beating them settle in before Scott Lang provided the kick to giving them hope again was not how I thought they were going to handle it. I really enjoyed all the interactions with the past characters like Frigga and the Ancient One and of course Howard Stark. I was curious about how familiar the Ancient One was with Stephen Strange given that he hadn't even started on his path to the mystic arts, or did I miss something there?

Chris Hemsworth is so, so funny. I would love to know how they turned Hardbody Thor into Potbelly Thor. Is it the same tech they used to de-age various actors or what they used with original scrawny Steve Rogers?

I wouldn't have been happy with the story in the end if they had won the day with no price paid. The sacrifices all felt totally justified and appropriate. I'm happy Steve Rogers finally got that dance with Peggy and got to live his life in the right order at last.

But let's talk about the true shocking development in the movie: no end credits scene! When the movie just ... stopped and the lights went all the way up in the theater where I watched it, everyone was stunned at first and then burst out laughing.

MostlyClueless 04-24-2019 05:28 PM

I wonder if they're actually going to give Sam his own Captain American movie.

squeegee 04-25-2019 05:06 AM

I thought it was strange that they made the decision to bring back all the world's missing population in present time, rather than undoing Thanos' work five years before so the 'incident' basically never happened. I thought that doubling the/every world's population instantly was a recipe for world/galaxy-wide famine. No way they can raise enough foodstuffs quickly enough for double the mouths in a short time.

And, hell, how do all these people not appear inside new construction or in front of moving vehicles?

Tabby_Cat 04-25-2019 05:55 AM

I don't know about this movie. It didn't feel like a movie so much as an... epilogue. Like they spent 2 hours going around tying up all of the character's loose ends, and sending them off into the sunset.

Like, I don't feel like I really want to watch any more Marvel movies after this. After the end of Civil War, I wanted to know what happened to the team, things were moving forward etc, and I suppose Guardians + Thor is where they're going next, but nothing about Strange, Marvel, Spiderman even, it didn't feel like they were going anywhere or that a new team was taking over the old team, or anything like that. It just felt like... the end, I guess.

I was also really annoyed about the time travel shenanigans. Particularly since the time stone was right there, and particularly since they actually brought Gamora back - and then she disappears again? Why don't they bring Nat back using the same time travel nonsense rather than using the glove?

Just.. didn't feel this movie.

squeegee 04-25-2019 06:01 AM

Re time travel, agree. I couldn't have rolled my eyes harder when the 'time caper' plot was laid out.

GuanoLad 04-25-2019 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608306)
I thought it was strange that they made the decision to bring back all the world's missing population in present time, rather than undoing Thanos' work five years before so the 'incident' basically never happened.

Because then that would be the answer to every problem they face. They had to lay down a rule that said they cannot change the past without messing up the present. They're not fracturing the timeline like DC does with Flashpoint, they're using the stones to bring everyone back. It works and it's safe, even if in ongoing stories there will be some characters who are five years older than they used to be. e.g. I figure some of Peter Parker's class at school will not be returning.

Kind of a shame that Abby Ryder Fortson won't be back in the next Ant-Man though.

TaoPilot 04-25-2019 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuanoLad (Post 21608496)
I figure some of Peter Parker's class at school will not be returning.

Isn't Far From Home supposed to be set right after Endgame? How will that work? Actually, didn't Peter return to high school at the end of the movie and see Ned there?

Maybe FFH is set before Infinity War and Endgame after all. Wouldn't be the first time filmmakers have lied to keep a secret.

squeegee 04-25-2019 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuanoLad (Post 21608496)
Because then that would be the answer to every problem they face. They had to lay down a rule that said they cannot change the past without messing up the present. They're not fracturing the timeline like DC does with Flashpoint, they're using the stones to bring everyone back. It works and it's safe, even if in ongoing stories there will be some characters who are five years older than they used to be. e.g. I figure some of Peter Parker's class at school will not be returning.

I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers. Before Banner did The Snap, there was some brief strategizing and they agreed to bring back the other half of the world Now, not Then. This seems like a troublesome choice; e.g what happens to folk that were on aircraft when they disappeared? Ocean liners? And how do we feed them all?

And re the writers: it's easy not to fall in the trap of time travel rules that break your universe: don't write stories with time travel.

GuanoLad 04-25-2019 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608877)
I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers.

It amounts to the same thing. But in-universe, they didn't want to wipe out the five years that did happen for those who were left, Tony Stark's daughter being the prime example.

Jack Batty 04-25-2019 09:35 PM

I just got back from seeing it. My take: if someone would have just told me what happens in the first two hours and I would have been pleased as punch to just watch the last hour. I admit, I was very tired going in and I found myself nodding in a few spots - for example, I saw Cap walk into the elevator with all the bad guys (flashback-like) then I kind of drifted and I snapped to to see Cap walking calmly out of the elevator with the case with Loki's scepter in it. I have no idea what happened or what was said in the elevator.

Overall, I thought it was great and I'm glad I saw in a packed theater. The cheers, especially when Captain America started swinging Thor's hammer, made the film.

ebb 04-25-2019 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shantih (Post 21606939)
I was curious about how familiar the Ancient One was with Stephen Strange given that he hadn't even started on his path to the mystic arts, or did I miss something there?

Well, the Ancient One was walking around with the Time Stone around their neck, probably for years if not centuries. It seemed they were pretty adept at looking both backward and forward in time by this point.

RikWriter 04-25-2019 10:36 PM

I just got back.
To address what I thought at first was a continuity gap, the reason Ned Leeds seems to be the same age and is still in HS is he got snapped too. One has to assume a lot of Peter's "gang" did.
Another thing, I don't think Hulk JUST brought back everyone, I think he brought back all the infrastructure too.
As for the movie...

Oh.
My.
GOD.

That was the most incredible spectacle ever put to film. I can't imagine how they'll ever top this.
It basically gave me everything I wanted out of the movie. I have nothing at all to complain about.

Equipoise 04-26-2019 01:21 AM

I did the 22-movie marathon at AMC and seeing Endgame with a full theater of people I'd just spent 3 days with was amazing. I want to see it again because there's much to process but I have a lot of sleep to catch up on.

Biggest delightful surprise for me: that it was Carol Danvers who rescues Tony Stark and Nebula. Biggest sad surprise: Natasha committing suicide to save Clint. (Tony Stark dying wasn't a surprise. I hadn't been spoiled, but we knew that either Cap or Tony or both would die).

Eyebrows 0f Doom 04-26-2019 02:13 AM

I just got back from seeing it in IMAX and I loved it! I was truly surprised with Thanos being dispatched so quickly and the the 5 year jump. Seeing this in a packed theater added to the enjoyment, lots of cheers and clapping, the most was probably when Cap picked up Mjolnir!

I was surprised at how much of the movie was very quiet and introspective, almost like a straight drama. It was quite a ways into it before there really was any big action scene. It really did feel like an ending, especially with the montage during the credits and then, shocker! No after credits scene!

asterion 04-26-2019 03:07 AM

I spent an hour trying to figure out what I missed. The space stone's on Earth as is the time stone. The reality stone is on Asgard, the power stone on whatever the opening of GotG was, and the soul stone is on the someone has to die planet. So who and where, I wondered, picked up the mind stone? That's what I get for forgetting why they needed the scepter (and generally trying to forget I ever watched Age of Ultron). Somebody please tell me I wasn't the only one.

Alessan 04-26-2019 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Batty (Post 21610072)
I just got back from seeing it. My take: if someone would have just told me what happens in the first two hours and I would have been pleased as punch to just watch the last hour. I admit, I was very tired going in and I found myself nodding in a few spots - for example, I saw Cap walk into the elevator with all the bad guys (flashback-like) then I kind of drifted and I snapped to to see Cap walking calmly out of the elevator with the case with Loki's scepter in it. I have no idea what happened or what was said in the elevator.

He tried to convince Sitwell, Rumlow and the other goons that the Director (Robert Redford) wanted him to take the scepter. They started looking at him suspiciously, and for a second it looked like we were about to have a replay of the Winter Soldier elevator fight... and then Steve just leaned forward and whispered "Hail Hydra" into Stillwell's ear. He nodded and handed him the scepter. It was hilarious.

(I think it was also a mocking reference to a recent highly controversial comic series, in which it turned out that Cap had been working for Hydra all along).

ricksummon 04-26-2019 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608877)
I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers. Before Banner did The Snap, there was some brief strategizing and they agreed to bring back the other half of the world Now, not Then. This seems like a troublesome choice; e.g what happens to folk that were on aircraft when they disappeared? Ocean liners? And how do we feed them all?

Simple; unlike Thanos, Bruce's Snap also doubled the resources! :D

ebb 04-26-2019 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608877)
I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers. Before Banner did The Snap, there was some brief strategizing and they agreed to bring back the other half of the world Now, not Then. This seems like a troublesome choice; e.g what happens to folk that were on aircraft when they disappeared? Ocean liners? And how do we feed them all?

And re the writers: it's easy not to fall in the trap of time travel rules that break your universe: don't write stories with time travel.

There's obviously a certain amount of movie magic going on here. But given the setup of the Stones and the Snap there really has to be. It's not as if Thanos made quadrillions of individual decisions about who lived and died, whether planes landed safely, how many bacteria were affected, etc. He just had an overall intent and the magic carried it out, and he didn't care about the repercussions. I think it's reasonable to assume the magic works the same way for Banner, only his intent is nobler, and he does care that people are preserved. So I'm fine believing that the genie of the stones carried out his wish in a way that didn't end up with people phasing into solid stone or appearing in front of moving cars or what have you.

For dramatic purposes there has to be some lingering effect from the events of all of these movies. Having half the world's population missing five years while the other half has five years of grief and rebuilding on their record seems like a nice world-spanning consequence that can be brought in as needed, but also more or less ignored if a particular upcoming movie doesn't need that ingredient. I vastly prefer it to some global reset where we rewind back to the moment of Thanos' snap and for some reason only the core Avengers remember that anything happened at all. That would feel much more like a cop-out.

As far as the time travel aspects, I think they actually did a great job of setting up a fun movie-believable set of time travel rules and then coloring inside the lines, for the most part. You can't go back in time and change things in order to change your present reality. All they could do is sneak back, borrow the stones for an instant, and then sneak back and replace them so that those other realities don't end up changed for the worse. The time travel seemed to require a return to the original destination, unless you choose to make it a one-way journey, like Cap did at the end. I thought that was a great set of rules to set up some neat nostalgia scenes and inserts into previous movies without making everything too hard or too easy dramatically.

I'm hazy on two parts, though. I'm not sure that they don't work within these rules, but would need to think about it.
1) When Cap and Iron Man decide to improvise after losing the cube, they "sideways" jump back to Howard Stark's lab. I'm not sure how they did that on the fly without returning to the big time jump machine. Maybe we just write this off to Tony Stark doing super-science when he needs to.
2) When Evil Nebula uses the time platform to pull Thanos and his ship to the present from the past it seems like it's bending the rules in order to set up the final confrontation. There might be a good explanation there but it didn't occur to me on first watching.

Alessan 04-26-2019 10:06 AM

I just assume that a whole buttload of alternate dimensions were created and leave it at that.

RikWriter 04-26-2019 10:31 AM

I don't know how the hell Agents of SHIELD season 6 is going to work.

Czarcasm 04-26-2019 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocking chair (Post 21606302)
I have pacing questions.

when would be the best time to "skip to the loo"?

Depends.

Czarcasm 04-26-2019 11:27 AM

Richard Roeper tweeted as to when the best time to hit the bathroom was:
Quote:

When to take pee breaks when you attend “Avengers: Endgame”:

1. Five minutes before the movie begins.

2. Immediately after the movie ends.

You’re welcome.

AK84 04-26-2019 01:34 PM

My cinema has a policy of playing music on the PA system.
The song they played after the end?
Seasons in the sun.
Bastards!

AK84 04-26-2019 01:36 PM

I wonder if the question of the identity of Peggy’s husband is now solved. The MCU has avoided answering that question. So if it was Thawed!Cap, then that makes sense.

ETA : Sad that the star of Avengers and our distinguished poster, Elendil’s Heir did not return. Pretty much everyone else did! :D

bienville 04-26-2019 02:32 PM

Jarvis!!! Motherfucking Edwin Jarvis!!!

BEST.
CALLBACK.
EVER.

ebb 04-26-2019 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RikWriter (Post 21610743)
I don't know how the hell Agents of SHIELD season 6 is going to work.

I thought all of the references to the Peggy Carter series in Endgame were great, but was wondering why there wasn't at least a nod in the direction of Agents of SHIELD in the movie, unless I missed it. It could be that they're going to leverage the events of the movie to finally just say "screw it, they're off in their own continuity" and let them play for the rest of the show's run. It would free them from having to constantly come up with reasons why more capable heroes aren't getting called in to deal with world-shattering problems.

Jonathan Chance 04-26-2019 03:39 PM

Called it! I so desperately wanted Cap to go back and marry Peggy I bet my assistant a day off! I win!

Some great moments, here. Cap and Mjolnir, all the women calling back to Infinity War "She's not alone" and the black heroes making their entrance. Loads to cheer for, there.

Also, Loki's alive. He's got the stone back in 2012 and another opportunity to cause trouble - or have fun, depending on one's point of view - so watch out world!

bienville 04-26-2019 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21611268)
Loki's alive. He's got the stone back in 2012 and another opportunity to cause trouble - or have fun, depending on one's point of view - so watch out world!

He was transported to the Premium Streaming Content Realm.

Jonathan Chance 04-26-2019 04:20 PM

Oooo...

And where's Mjolnir? Cap went into the past with it.

RikWriter 04-26-2019 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21611350)
Oooo...

And where's Mjolnir? Cap went into the past with it.

He dropped it back in 2013 so Thor could have it.

Half Man Half Wit 04-26-2019 05:16 PM

I thought that was exceptionally well done. Truly a satisfying conclusion. Two things I liked most where that they avoided introducing some new and improved even bigger Big Bad, and that they didn't just hit the reset button. Oh, and that Dr Strange's seeing the future and surrendering the time stone to Thanos actually paid off. (And by the way, did he tell Stark they were going to win? Because surely, that it doesn't happen if he does only matters if they're in fact going to win...)

But I thought Captain Marvel was curiously underused. I had been thinking that she would be absolutely critical for defeating Thanos, but all she did was tank the ship in the end. Which, don't get me wrong, nice going, but it seems that could've been accomplished in other ways.

Oh, and I can finally say I have the physique of a norse God! :D

Jack Batty 04-26-2019 06:16 PM

I'd say this is definitely a multi-viewer. The final battle alone qualifies it. I don't think I'll be able to wait until it comes to Netflix in two years, so I may have to return to the theater. Maybe I'll catch it in 3D this time.

dasmoocher 04-26-2019 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocking chair (Post 21606302)
I have pacing questions.

when would be the best time to "skip to the loo"?

should one buy a large beverage, how should that be paced? what would be considered the half way mark?

When to take a bathroom pee break during Avengers: Endgame

Calatin 04-26-2019 07:51 PM

My favorite observation yet has been what the interaction must've been like when Cap went back to replace the Soul Stone.

Calatin 04-26-2019 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmoocher (Post 21611564)

After seeing it, the best moment would be just a little after the halfway mark when (tagged, but still gonna be vague)...

SPOILER:
Hawkeye wakes up in a puddle.


You'll have a good 4-5 minutes of inconsequential events.

XT 04-26-2019 08:30 PM

Saw it last night. Overall, I liked it. No surprise there, I went in wanting to like it, and for the most part it delivered. Lots of sad moments throughout, some good nods to the fans. The whole fat Thor arc I could have missed, and if you need to pee at some point, I highly recommend doing so whenever Thor is on screen. It was just lame. I was disappointed that Captain Marvel wasn't in the film more...it was kind of weird when she shows up then rolls back out, going off to save other planets because they don't have a few dysfunctional and obviously PTSD Avengers about.

My suspension of disbelief was nearly shattered (and mind, this is after the whole time travel thingy) when they brought everyone back after 5 years of everyone being gone (I presume they brought all the plants and animals back too) and the world just worked. I mean...huh?

But, it was still a really good movie. I laughed. I cried. I was drawn in. There were lame parts, and it was freaking long, but overall...I give it an 8 out of 10 and it's a good ending of this arc of the franchise. Hope they have some good plans for the future movies.

steronz 04-26-2019 09:39 PM

Saw it, loved it. It's an incredible achievement of storytelling over 22 movies.

Things I loved:
- Thanos dying in the first 15 minutes
- The team structure of trying to secure all of the stones
- The character send offs all felt earned
- In general characters didn't seem superfluous
- Cap and Mjolnor
- Characters getting closure in the past

Obligatory gripes:
- Rules about who's powerful enough to wield a stone are flexible
- Thanos is as tough as he needs to be for the scene, whatever that may be
- Tertiary characters showing up for the main battle. At some point people without superpowers should just be replaced with army infantry, right?
- This time travel is far too easy. All future movies will just be like, let's get some Pym juice and fix this
- Capt Marvel wasn't necessary and can fly through all the ships but can't punch Thanos. They went too far with her powers too soon and clearly didn't know what to do with them

Still, I felt very satisfied walking out of the theater. Well done, Marvel

Jonathan Chance 04-26-2019 10:10 PM

New Asgard is on the coast of Scotland? Dear Lord, we're gonna cross Asgardians with Scots. What's THAT going to bring?

Mahaloth 04-26-2019 11:01 PM

Wow.

Yeah, so that was absolutely amazing and is the first time in a long time that I thought, "Wow, this is a classic movie," right while I'm seeing it. Great movie.

Pairing this with Infinity War makes for an absolutely amazing superhero saga.

10/10

They actually delivered. Studios can make great movies sometimes.

Mahaloth 04-26-2019 11:05 PM

Is below the right analysis of the ending?

Dead: Tony Stark, Black Widow, Gamora(original version), Loki, many bad guys(Thanos included)

Retired: Steve Rogers

Alive: Everyone else

Am I right about Gamora? What else did I forget?

XT 04-26-2019 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21611935)
Is below the right analysis of the ending?

Dead: Tony Stark, Black Widow, Gamora(original version), Loki, many bad guys(Thanos included)

Retired: Steve Rogers

Alive: Everyone else

Am I right about Gamora? What else did I forget?

Yeah, the Infinity War timeline Gamora is dead. The Gamora that is alive today is one from the first Avenger movie timeline, so before the original Guardian's movie. That was an interesting choice. They didn't really mention Loki, so I suppose it's vaguely possible he's still alive, though all those theories about him being the Hulk are obviously busted. :p

Darth Sensitive 04-26-2019 11:27 PM

Vision is permadead too.

And there's an alternate timeline Loki out there with a tesseract that's just perfect for a streaming series.

RikWriter 04-26-2019 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21611873)
New Asgard is on the coast of Scotland? Dear Lord, we're gonna cross Asgardians with Scots. What's THAT going to bring?

I thought it was in Norway.

AK84 04-27-2019 12:30 AM

They have pym particles. So prime age Rogers can be recalled if and when needed.
Tony is gone.
Vision was a product of the stone, gone
Nat is alien microbe food.
Gamora is gone too, for all intents and purposes.
Quite a small body count in retrospect.

iiandyiiii 04-27-2019 01:17 AM

Loved it! Really, really wild, but very satisfying. I'll have more thoughts in the morning.


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