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-   -   North Korea suspending missile testing and closing nuclear site; Trump the statesman? (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=853430)

Snowboarder Bo 08-05-2019 09:37 PM

A couple of pieces of news today.

First: North Korea fires presumed ballistic missiles as talks stall.
Quote:

North Korea continued to ramp up its weapons demonstrations by firing two presumed short-range ballistic missiles into the sea Tuesday while lashing out at the United States and South Korea for continuing military exercises that the North says could derail fragile nuclear diplomacy.
Quote:

South Korea’s military alerted reporters to the launches minutes before the North’s Foreign Ministry denounced Washington and Seoul over the start of their joint exercises on Monday. The ministry’s statement said the drills, which North Korea sees as an invasion rehearsal, leave the country “compelled to develop, test and deploy the powerful physical means essential for national defense.”

The statement from an unidentified spokesperson said Pyongyang remains committed to dialogue, but it could seek a “new road” if the allies don’t change their positions.

“It is too axiomatic that a constructive dialogue cannot be expected at a time when a simulated war practice targeted at the dialogue partner is being conducted,” said the statement released by Pyongyang’s official Korean Central News Agency. “We remain unchanged in our stand to resolve the issues through dialogue. But the dynamics of dialogue will be more invisible as long as the hostile military moves continue.”
So they want to talk but they're gonna carry a big stick:
Quote:

Seoul’s Joint Chiefs of Staff said the two projectiles the North flew cross-country were likely short-range ballistic missiles. They were launched early Tuesday from an area near the North’s western coast and traveled about 450 kilometers (279 miles) on an apogee of 37 kilometers (23 miles) at a maximum speed of above Mach 6.9 before landing in waters off the country’s eastern coast, the JCS said.

The JCS said the projectiles showed similar flight characteristics to short-range missiles North Korea fired on July 25, which traveled about 600 kilometers (373 miles) during launches the North described a “solemn warning” to South Korea over its plans to continue military drills with the United States.

South Korea’s military had said the flight data of the July missiles showed similarities to the Russian-made Iskander, a solid-fuel, nuclear capable missile that is highly maneuverable and travels on lower trajectories compared to conventional ballistic weapons, improving its chances of evading missile defense systems.
The other news is that NKorea appears to have upped their game in another, very profitable way: UN report: North Korea cyber experts raised up to $2 billion.
Quote:

A panel monitoring U.N. sanctions says North Korean cyber experts have illegally raised money for the country’s weapons of mass destruction programs “with total proceeds to date estimated at up to $2 billion.”

The experts said in a new report to the Security Council that North Korea is using cyberspace “to launch increasingly sophisticated attacks to steal funds from financial institutions and cryptocurrency exchanges to generate income” in violation of sanctions.
21st century conflict is going to be complicated:
Quote:

The experts’ report, seen Monday by The Associated Press, said large-scale attacks against cryptocurrency exchanges by North Korea allow the country “to generate income in ways that are harder to trace and subject to less government oversight and regulation than the traditional banking sector.”

North Korea also continues to have access to the global financial system, “through bank representatives and networks operating worldwide” as a result of “deficiencies” by U.N. member states in implementing financial sanctions and Pyongyang’s “deceptive practices,” the experts said.
NKorea is also using a number of fronts to move arms, fuel and information:
Quote:

The experts said representatives from three North Korean entities under U.N. sanctions — KOMID, Saeng Pil and Namchongang — continued to operates overseas, including under diplomatic cover, “attempting to transfer conventional weapons and expertise and to procure equipment and technology for the country’s WMD (weapons of mass destruction) programs.”

The Munitions Industry Department and other sanctioned entities also continued to raise funds for these programs by sending information technology workers abroad, the panel said. And the Reconnaissance General Bureau and other sanctioned bodies, including the Mansudae Overseas Project Group, “also engaged in the import of luxury goods and attempted sale of frozen assets overseas” in violation of U.N. sanctions.
NKorea isn't helpless, and they're now demanding to be treated as an equal. :eek:

Thanks, Trump!

asahi 08-05-2019 10:08 PM

In addition to their ability to scheme their way into ill-gotten crypto gains, I suspect that the North Koreans are now getting a bit more help from China than they were before the Trump-Kim detente began. Now that the US is fully challenging China to an economic death match, there's simply no reason for China to help the US with North Korea at this point, aside from its own self-interest in not seeing another nation possess WMD capabilities.

Snowboarder Bo 08-07-2019 02:20 PM

Some pretty severe posturing going on:
Quote:

North Korea said Wednesday leader Kim Jong Un supervised a live-fire demonstration of newly developed, short-range ballistic missiles intended to send a warning to the United States and South Korea over their joint military exercises.

The official Korean Central News Agency said two missiles launched from a western airfield flew across the country and over the area surrounding the capital, Pyongyang, before accurately hitting an island target off its eastern coast.
Quote:

The KCNA said the launches early Tuesday verified the reliability and combat ability of “new-type tactical guided missiles.” Kim expressed satisfaction and said the launches would send an appropriate level of warning to the military exercises between the United States and South Korea that began on Monday, the report said.
There are numerous pictures at that link, all of which came from the Korean Central News Agency, the DPRK's official news agency.

Snowboarder Bo 09-09-2019 12:04 PM

North Korea says it’s willing to resume fake nuke talks with US in order to play Trump like a fiddle again! Seriously; they are approaching the table with a strong posture:
Quote:

North Korea said Monday it’s willing to resume nuclear diplomacy with the United States in late September, but only if the U.S. comes to the negotiating table with satisfactory new proposals.

If the proposals don’t satisfy North Korea, dealings between the two countries will come to an end, First Vice Foreign Minister Choe Son Hui said.

In a statement carried by state media, Choe said North Korea has given the U.S. enough time to map out new proposals to salvage the nuclear negotiations.
This echoes what was said earlier this year:
Quote:

In April, North Korean leader Kim Jong Un said the U.S. must come up with new proposals to revive the talks by December.
They bought themselves quite a bit of time with almost no effort or expense; a great example of statesmanship, IMO. Too bad I'm too biased to admire it, eh.

Buck Godot 09-09-2019 12:18 PM

Kim realizes that 2020 is coming and Trump is desperate diplomatic victory, any diplomatic victory, in order to support the notion that he is a master negotiator. All the leverage is on Kim's side and he knows it. All he has to do is promise not to do any testing until November 4th 2020 and Trump will give him anything he wants.

Snowboarder Bo 09-09-2019 08:51 PM

Right after saying they were ready to talk about de-nuking again, North Korea fired off a couple of missiles:
Quote:

The North Korean projectiles fired from its South Phyongan province, which surrounds its capital city of Pyongyang, flew about 330 kilometers (205 miles) across the country and in the direction of the waters off its east coast, according to South Korea’s Joint Chiefs of Staff and Defense Ministry.

The military said South Korea will monitor possible additional launches. The JCS said the U.S. and South Korean militaries were analyzing the launches but didn’t immediately say whether the weapons were ballistic missiles or rocket artillery.

Gyrate 09-10-2019 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Godot (Post 21849832)
Kim realizes that 2020 is coming and Trump is desperate diplomatic victory, any diplomatic victory, in order to support the notion that he is a master negotiator. All the leverage is on Kim's side and he knows it. All he has to do is promise not to do any testing until November 4th 2020 and Trump will give him anything he wants.

Yes, not only have NK been given the upper hand in these discussions for the first time, they're openly flaunting it. Trump is now officially Kim's bitch.

Snowboarder Bo 09-10-2019 08:28 AM

Trump is now officially Kim's pussy ass bitch, I think you mean.

Gyrate 09-10-2019 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo (Post 21851289)
Trump is now officially Kim's pussy ass bitch, I think you mean.

I thought there was a difference between a "pussy" and an "ass" but apparently there taint.

Snowboarder Bo 09-10-2019 11:46 AM

Trevor Noah explains.

Snowboarder Bo 09-23-2019 05:43 PM

Trump and his bestie planning another playdate?. Also, Trump lies about the situation:
Quote:

As he arrived at the U.N. for the start of the annual General Assembly of world leaders, Trump responded to a question about when he planned to meet with Kim, saying, “It could happen soon. It could happen soon.”

In comments during a later meeting, Trump said of North Korean diplomacy: “It’s moving along pretty well, actually.”
Sure it is- for North Korea:
Quote:

In recent days, however, North Korea has praised Trump for saying Washington may pursue an unspecified “new method” in nuclear negotiations as well as for his decision to fire his hawkish former National Security Adviser John Bolton.

wguy123 10-02-2019 02:44 PM

11th missile test this year:

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/76632...om-a-submarine

Definitely statesman.

Walken After Midnight 10-05-2019 04:04 PM

Trump got played by Kim Jong-un - US, North Korea break off nuclear talks after months of negotiations (The Hill):
Quote:

U.S. and North Korean negotiators broke off high-level nuclear talks after months of negotiations between the two countries.

Reuters reported Saturday that North Korea's top official present for negotiations with the U.S. told reporters that the U.S. had brought nothing to the table for the latest round of talks.

“The negotiations have not fulfilled our expectation and finally broke off,” Kim Myong Gil said.

"The U.S. raised expectations by offering suggestions like a flexible approach, new method and creative solutions, but they have disappointed us greatly and dampened our enthusiasm for negotiation by bringing nothing to the negotiation table," he added, according to Reuters.

Snowboarder Bo 10-05-2019 05:11 PM

https://apnews.com/c66474b67b3e41cdad6d21ba3385ddc2
Quote:

North Korea’s chief negotiator said Saturday that discussions with the U.S. on Pyongyang’s nuclear program have broken down, but Washington said the two sides had “good discussions” that it intends to build on in two weeks.

The North Korean negotiator, Kim Miyong Gil, said the talks in Stockholm had “not fulfilled our expectations and broke down. I am very displeased about it.” Speaking outside the North Korean Embassy, he read a statement in Korean that a translator next to him read in English.

Kim said negotiations broke down “entirely because the U.S. has not discarded its old stance and attitude.”
This contrasts greatly with
Quote:

State Department spokesperson Morgan Ortagus said Kim’s comments did “not reflect the content or the spirit” of the “good discussions” that took place over eight-and-a-half hours, adding that the U.S. accepted an invitation from Sweden to return to Stockholm in two weeks to continue discussions.
:dubious:

asahi 10-05-2019 07:57 PM

They can have all the discussions they want: all indications are that North Korea has the ability (perhaps crude) to launch nukes from subs.

Trump's "deal making" has allowed something to happen that I thought the US would never allow, which is to allow NK the ability to hit the US mainland with nukes. Yes, if NK actually launched so much as one in our direction, it would be bad for NK, but let's say NK can credibly put on the table the ability to hit every major American metropolitan area with a nuke: what leverage does the US have then? What can the US do to stop NK then? How can they credibly "protect" Japan and South Korea then?

Answer is, they can't do that any more than we could "protect" Europe against an all out Soviet attack. What this means is that we're very close to the point at which NK can do whatever it wants to terrorize its neighbors with impunity. If the Russians invade Eastern Europe, there's nothing we can do about that militarily - nothing at all. Same with North Korea if they terrorize their Asian neighbors by shooting missiles over Japan and South Korea, which they will continue to do until the sanctions are lifted.

Hellooooooo?! That's exactly what the fuck I've been trying to explain all along.

And that's also why Iran is going to take a page out of North Korea's playbook, and not Iraq's. They're going to escalate and harass, and be a pain in our ass. There's no reward for capitulation; the reward comes from successfully putting pressure on the US and allies, and making them pay prices they don't want to pay.

Fentoine Lum 10-06-2019 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrate (Post 20960569)
One suspects he has other reasons for suddenly declaring that he's going to use the US Commerce Department to bring jobs back to a Chinese firm that is only losing jobs because it's banned from using US parts after violating sanctions by selling US products to Iran and North Korea.

Trump is "winning", in the sense that he is personally making a lot of money while screwing over America and Americans in a dozen different ways. I think that's a reasonable thing to worry about.

A more reasonable thing to get at might be that this is how our economic system works.

Fentoine Lum 10-06-2019 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21900265)
They can have all the discussions they want: all indications are that North Korea has the ability (perhaps crude) to launch nukes from subs.

Trump's "deal making" has allowed something to happen that I thought the US would never allow, which is to allow NK the ability to hit the US mainland with nukes. Yes, if NK actually launched so much as one in our direction, it would be bad for NK, but let's say NK can credibly put on the table the ability to hit every major American metropolitan area with a nuke: what leverage does the US have then? What can the US do to stop NK then? How can they credibly "protect" Japan and South Korea then?

Answer is, they can't do that any more than we could "protect" Europe against an all out Soviet attack. What this means is that we're very close to the point at which NK can do whatever it wants to terrorize its neighbors with impunity. If the Russians invade Eastern Europe, there's nothing we can do about that militarily - nothing at all. Same with North Korea if they terrorize their Asian neighbors by shooting missiles over Japan and South Korea, which they will continue to do until the sanctions are lifted.

Hellooooooo?! That's exactly what the fuck I've been trying to explain all along.

And that's also why Iran is going to take a page out of North Korea's playbook, and not Iraq's. They're going to escalate and harass, and be a pain in our ass. There's no reward for capitulation; the reward comes from successfully putting pressure on the US and allies, and making them pay prices they don't want to pay.

Can we assume, for the sake of discussion here, that we're all aware that the US sold nuclear reactors to NK a mere 2 years before we placed them on an "axis of evil" list? And that they were sold from a company Don Rumsfeld had once sat on the board of directors of? And that this was an utterly bipartisan move/plan/program having been initiated during the Clinton administration and wrapped up under the Bush administration? And that we all helped fund NK's purchase of these nuclear reactors?

The two faces of Rumsfeld
- 2000: director of a company which wins $200m contract to sell nuclear reactors to North Korea
- 2002: declares North Korea a terrorist state, part of the axis of evil and a target for regime change

Rumsfeld was on ABB board during deal with North Korea
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/rumsfel...-korea/3176922

As for Iran, we all get that the US toppled Iran's duly democratically elected govt to insert one of our own choosing, no?

I cannot imagine why Iran would be so hostile to US for no reason like that.

JKellyMap 10-06-2019 02:25 PM

That’s interesting info, and part of a long history of carrots and sticks as US policy evolved (as it did toward a young Ho Chi Minh, a young-to-middle-aged Saddam Hussein, etc., etc.)...but it’s not particularly relevant to current policy decisions.

You have posted in several threads today, all with the same message: “EVERYONE sucks, and they always have!”. It could be a coincidence. It seems you are trying to get people to be cynical toward all people in power. There’s some value in this, but given the current impeachment crisis in the US executive branch, it looks suspiciously like you have an ulterior motive.

I will say no more — I shouldn’t be junior modding. But your repeated theme is a derailment (in some threads more than in others). I humbly suggest you start a thread called something like “Everyone in power has behaved badly,” and concentrate your efforts there.

Fentoine Lum 10-06-2019 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKellyMap (Post 21901207)
That’s interesting info, and part of a long history of carrots and sticks as US policy evolved (as it did toward a young Ho Chi Minh, a young-to-middle-aged Saddam Hussein, etc., etc.)...but it’s not particularly relevant to current policy decisions.

You have posted in several threads today, all with the same message: “EVERYONE sucks, and they always have!”. It could be a coincidence. It seems you are trying to get people to be cynical toward all people in power. There’s some value in this, but given the current impeachment crisis in the US executive branch, it looks suspiciously like you have an ulterior motive.

I will say no more — I shouldn’t be junior modding. But your repeated theme is a derailment (in some threads more than in others). I humbly suggest you start a thread called something like “Everyone in power has behaved badly,” and concentrate your efforts there.

I'll never understand why some folks are so nervous about discussions. And that's all this is. You're nervous about what I'm posting, what, not the acceptable "left" partisanshithead versus "right" patisanshithead hissyfitting? Where oh where to find a safe space.

I rather think the "message" is a tad over your head/outside your acceptable lines.

If you can create some problems for me here by tattling, go ahead. Life will go on, somehow, glad to have rattled your cage.

JKellyMap 10-06-2019 02:47 PM

Hah! Nothing rattled here, as you know. I think it’s a fine discussion to have. Just not in threads about other subjects. I admit your theme is POTENTIALLY relevant in this thread, if you had connected (even in an abstract, comparative sense) the Clinton and Rumsfeld policies to the ones today. But since you’ve also “contributed” to at least one thread today as a total hijack (the “advice to Pelosi” one), it’s hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Fentoine Lum 10-06-2019 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKellyMap (Post 21901243)
Hah! Nothing rattled here, as you know. I think it’s a fine discussion to have. Just not in threads about other subjects. I admit your theme is POTENTIALLY relevant in this thread, if you had connected (even in an abstract, comparative sense) the Clinton and Rumsfeld policies to the ones today. But since you’ve also “contributed” to at least one thread today as a total hijack (the “advice to Pelosi” one), it’s hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Right, totally unrattled. I can't believe they let me post here without securing your permission first.

[This post has not been approved by JKellyMap]

septimus 10-07-2019 12:34 AM

I've not visited this thread for a while. (I already have my own nightmares, but thanks anyway.)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fentoine Lum (Post 21901197)
Can we assume, for the sake of discussion here, that we're all aware that the US sold nuclear reactors to NK a mere 2 years before we placed them on an "axis of evil" list? And that they were sold from a company Don Rumsfeld had once sat on the board of directors of?

Assume it if you wish, but I didn't know until you pointed it out. (Some things that disturb my peace of mind I'd rather not know.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by asahi (Post 21900265)
They can have all the discussions they want: all indications are that North Korea has the ability (perhaps crude) to launch nukes from subs.

Trump's "deal making" has allowed something to happen that I thought the US would never allow, which is to allow NK the ability to hit the US mainland with nukes. Yes, if NK actually launched so much as one in our direction, it would be bad for NK, but let's say NK can credibly put on the table the ability to hit every major American metropolitan area with a nuke: what leverage does the US have then? What can the US do to stop NK then? How can they credibly "protect" Japan and South Korea then?
... we're very close to the point at which NK can do whatever it wants to terrorize its neighbors with impunity. If the Russians invade Eastern Europe, there's nothing we can do about that militarily - nothing at all. Same with North Korea if they terrorize their Asian neighbors by shooting missiles over Japan and South Korea, which they will continue to do until the sanctions are lifted.

Hellooooooo?! That's exactly what the fuck I've been trying to explain all along.

And that's also why Iran is going to take a page out of North Korea's playbook, and not Iraq's. They're going to escalate and harass, and be a pain in our ass. There's no reward for capitulation; the reward comes from successfully putting pressure on the US and allies, and making them pay prices they don't want to pay.

So. On HD's question "Trump the statesman?" should we put you down as a "No"?

Gyrate 10-07-2019 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fentoine Lum (Post 21901172)
A more reasonable thing to get at might be that this is how our economic system works.

Yes, but this isn't how our political system is supposed to work. In fact, using one's political office to personally profit is usually seen as a textbook definition of "corruption" (and is one of the reasons behind the Emoluments clause).

Fentoine Lum 10-07-2019 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrate (Post 21902231)
Yes, but this isn't how our political system is supposed to work. In fact, using one's political office to personally profit is usually seen as a textbook definition of "corruption" (and is one of the reasons behind the Emoluments clause).

Agreed, the illusion and imprinting is very different than the objective reality around us. George Washington engaged in this sort of thing as well.

Snowboarder Bo 10-07-2019 11:11 PM

North Korea adopts an extremely strong public stance today:
Quote:

North Korea on Monday denounced a scheduled U.N. Security Council discussion of its latest test of an underwater-launched ballistic missile, calling it “dangerous” and saying it will increase “our desire to defend our sovereignty.”

The council scheduled closed consultations Tuesday on recent North Korean tests at the request of the United Kingdom, France and Germany.

North Korea’s U.N. Ambassador Kim Song told several reporters Monday the United States is “behind the impure moves” of the three countries, saying the meeting would not take place without the consent of the Trump administration.

Weekend discussions between senior U.S. and North Korean officials in Stockholm broke down amid acrimony. The talks were the first since the second summit between President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un collapsed in Vietnam in February due to squabbling over how much sanctions relief should be given to the North in return for dismantling its main nuclear complex.

Pyongyang’s chief nuclear negotiator Kim Myong Gil told reporters at Beijing’s airport on his way home Monday that “whether or not there are further talks will depend on the U.S.” He described talks with his U.S. counterpart, Stephen Biegun, on Saturday as “very bad and sickening,” and stressed that the U.S .had “not presented any new initiative.”


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