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cmosdes 09-10-2019 02:55 PM

Trump...
 
I'm getting really tired of hearing how Trump is a bumbling, incompetent, idiot who can't get anything done and is failing miserably.

Not because I like or support the guy. I don't. At all. I think he is a horrible President in just about every conceivable way.

But to say he is anything but wildly successful seems... idiotic.

This isn't a debate about whether Trump is a worthless President that will destroy the country or anything along those lines. This is a rant that people calling him a failure and making so many errors to his own detriment obviously haven't checked the scoreboard.

At this point, he is completely and utterly above the law and he knows it. Hearing comments that he is a clown without a clue seem to be missing the obvious: he clearly is winning this game. I can only hope next November enough other people see the same thing I see and get him out of there but as is stands now he is in the cat bird seat. Stop saying he isn't winning this thing, because he is. He is now openly talking about a third term.

Snowboarder Bo 09-10-2019 03:04 PM

You could have said the same thing about Nicolae Ceaușescu.

Ravenman 09-10-2019 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852174)
I'm getting really tired of hearing how Trump is a bumbling, incompetent, idiot who can't get anything done and is failing miserably.

Not because I like or support the guy. I don't. At all. I think he is a horrible President in just about every conceivable way.

But to say he is anything but wildly successful seems... idiotic.

This isn't a debate about whether Trump is a worthless President that will destroy the country or anything along those lines. This is a rant that people calling him a failure and making so many errors to his own detriment obviously haven't checked the scoreboard.

At this point, he is completely and utterly above the law and he knows it. Hearing comments that he is a clown without a clue seem to be missing the obvious: he clearly is winning this game. I can only hope next November enough other people see the same thing I see and get him out of there but as is stands now he is in the cat bird seat. Stop saying he isn't winning this thing, because he is. He is now openly talking about a third term.

What, specifically, is he winning? The only thing I can think of is getting elected and getting attention. He's failed spectacularly at most of his policies. I mean, not just "we came close but Congress resisted." I mean the trade war is a disaster, Mexico isn't paying for the wall, there isn't even a wall, Obamacare is still around and most of his braintrust isn't, etc.

Sunny Daze 09-10-2019 03:23 PM

If your OP is meant to be a reminder that dismissing him as a failure who will inevitably lose is a bad idea, then I agree. He's not gone until he's been escorted from the building. Do I think he's a successful president? No. Not on his terms (other than corruption), and not on mine.

Velocity 09-10-2019 03:57 PM

If we evaluate by presidential standards, he will always be ranked low by historians. Probably bottom-ten or bottom-five out of 45 presidents. The guy has no coherent policy, if he is a dictator as some claim, he's not even running a tight ship.

But if evaluating by individual standards, the guy has been wildly, wildly successful. No matter what, he is and will go down as one of the most famous individuals in history. Pretty much from his 40s(?) through old age he's been a famous and well-known person. He won one of the most shocking upset wins in presidential-election history. Doesn't matter whether you adore him or think he is the vilest contemptible scum, Trump will go down having left his mark on history and the world. He's gone further in life than 99.999% of people.

bobot 09-10-2019 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852174)
I'm getting really tired of hearing how Trump is a bumbling, incompetent, idiot who can't get anything done and is failing miserably.

...

But to say he is anything but wildly successful seems... idiotic.
....

Trump is supported by a Senate majority and a Senate majority leader who wouldn't know ethics if they tripped over them. Trump is a bumbling, incompetent idiot. You've heard him try to speak coherently, no? How about the turnover in his so-called administration? That's incompetence, defined.

Bone 09-10-2019 04:25 PM

Moderating
 
Rant moved from GD to the Pit.

[/moderating]

begbert2 09-10-2019 04:27 PM

Trump can talk about a third term all he likes, but to me that doesn't indicate that he's so successful he'll get a third term - to me that indicates that's he a deranged moron that gibbers idiot monkey noises because be barely understands reality.

Trump is successful in a few ways: he was successfully born into lots and lots of money (much of which he's wasted), to date has successfully avoided most of the consequences for being an incompetent and criminal shitheel, and he successfully aligned himself with the angry idiot portion of the population, which (in combination with interference by his criminal and treasonous accomplices) ended up being a large enough percentage of the population to barely scrape him into office.

He's not a successful president by any measure, and it remains to be seen how long he'll be successful at evading consequences.

Czarcasm 09-10-2019 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begbert2 (Post 21852375)
...to me that indicates that's he a deranged moron that gibbers idiot monkey noises because be barely understands reality.

He has been this since day one, and he has gotten pretty fucking far with it because too many people think that being a deranged moron that gibbers idiot monkey noises because be barely understands reality will, in and of itself, somehow stop him.

cmosdes 09-10-2019 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenman (Post 21852206)
What, specifically, is he winning? The only thing I can think of is getting elected and getting attention. He's failed spectacularly at most of his policies. I mean, not just "we came close but Congress resisted." I mean the trade war is a disaster, Mexico isn't paying for the wall, there isn't even a wall, Obamacare is still around and most of his braintrust isn't, etc.

I'm saying he is winning because not only is he not thrown out of office, broke and in jail, he is now is own judge and jury. He is lining his pockets with tax payer money and has even completely stopped any check Congress has on him, both through having Mitch in his back pocket and through just outright defying congressional subpoenas with no consequence.

Check the scoreboard. He is in power, untouchable, and raiding the country's coffers to his own benefit. It doesn't matter what other disasters he leaves behind, he is personally coming out WAY ahead. He is winning. Not the US. Him.

Johnny L.A. 09-10-2019 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocity (Post 21852311)
Trump will go down having left his mark on history and the world.

Like people with poor anal hygiene leave marks on their tighty-whities.

cmosdes 09-10-2019 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begbert2 (Post 21852375)
Trump can talk about a third term all he likes, but to me that doesn't indicate that he's so successful he'll get a third term - to me that indicates that's he a deranged moron that gibbers idiot monkey noises because be barely understands reality.

A deranged moron that gibbers idiot monkey noises that sits behind the resolute desk and is beyond having to face any consequences. How is that not winning?

Quote:

Originally Posted by begbert2 (Post 21852375)
Trump is successful in a few ways: he was successfully born into lots and lots of money (much of which he's wasted), to date has successfully avoided most of the consequences for being an incompetent and criminal shitheel, and he successfully aligned himself with the angry idiot portion of the population, which (in combination with interference by his criminal and treasonous accomplices) ended up being a large enough percentage of the population to barely scrape him into office.

In other words, he won the election. Winning. As for his fortune, how you can say he wasted it is beyond me. If he is really worth billions (highly doubtful), he clearly didn't waste it. Even if he isn't worth billions, he lives like he does, which is just about as good. Even more, he now holds one of the most powerful positions in the world effectively unchecked and is lining his pockets with tax payer money. Seems like a good way to have spent that windfall, if you ask me. Hard to call that wasting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by begbert2 (Post 21852375)
He's not a successful president by any measure, and it remains to be seen how long he'll be successful at evading consequences.

Except if you measure it in terms of his immunity from consequence, which he clearly has. He meets with dictators, invites terrorists to meet him in our own country, outs high level spooks in foreign countries, compromises national intelligence abilities by releasing classified pictures, defies congress and subpoenas at every turn, his office regularly violating law after law... and still he sits in power. Sounds pretty successful to me. Anyone that can do all the things he has done and still remain in power seems successful. He might leave a wake of a disaster, but for him, personally, successful.

glee 09-10-2019 05:20 PM

I suggest that any Republican who got elected President last time would have benefited hugely from the initial Republican majority in both Houses.

I agree with previous posters that Trump's campaign promises have massively failed, but I imagine he would say that just being elected (and re-elected next time? :smack: ) shows how 'successful' he is.

P.S. There was mention in the thread of a 'third term' - I assume that's a simple misprint for 'second term.'

Aspenglow 09-10-2019 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852465)
I'm saying he is winning because not only is he not thrown out of office, broke and in jail, he is now is own judge and jury. He is lining his pockets with tax payer money and has even completely stopped any check Congress has on him, both through having Mitch in his back pocket and through just outright defying congressional subpoenas with no consequence.

Check the scoreboard. He is in power, untouchable, and raiding the country's coffers to his own benefit. It doesn't matter what other disasters he leaves behind, he is personally coming out WAY ahead. He is winning. Not the US. Him.

I think you've misplaced your, umm, admiration, for lack of a better term. Trump would be in jail or at least paying a price for all his transgressions if we had a Senate that wasn't lawlessly protecting him for all they're worth. It doesn't matter who is occupying the seat in the Oval Office, so far as they're concerned. One ass is as good as another.

Do you honestly believe Senate Republicans would have acted any different if, say, Pence was in the chair? They would cut their own mothers' throats to fulfill their long-sought goals of appointing conservative judges, giving themselves a fat tax cut, destroying health care for millions, protecting their graft and removing all protections for environment and/or general citizen welfare. Trump is a fucking puppet. A particularly corrupt and ugly puppet, but still nothing more. These Republican goals are the only reasons why lawless Senate Republicans have gritted their teeth and turned a blind eye to his egregious behavior.

Trump was a knowable excrescence long before he hoodwinked the American public (with major assists from Putin!) into voting him into office. The reason we can't fix it quickly is due entirely to obstructionist Republican Senators, who are ignoring their most fundamental duties to the Constitution.

begbert2 09-10-2019 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czarcasm (Post 21852431)
He has been this since day one, and he has gotten pretty fucking far with it because too many people think that being a deranged moron that gibbers idiot monkey noises because be barely understands reality will, in and of itself, somehow stop him.

I prefer to be fair and balanced, and I think he was much more balanced in his youth. He was always a disgusting criminal bully with mediocre intelligence and zero competence at anything other than self-aggrandizement and manipulation, but I honestly think he had something of a grasp of reality back in the day. Nowayears, not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852465)
Check the scoreboard. He is in power, untouchable, and raiding the country's coffers to his own benefit. It doesn't matter what other disasters he leaves behind, he is personally coming out WAY ahead. He is winning. Not the US. Him.

I, for one, don't count the score until the game is over.

This game isn't over, and I don't think he'll win. Honestly the best endgame I can see for him is to die of a heart attack, soon.

harmonicamoon 09-10-2019 05:24 PM

What is not to like? Unemployment is very low. Stock market is climbing.

Sure he is an idiot. But life is good.

And it scares me. He could be re-elected.

Sage Rat 09-10-2019 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852174)
I'm getting really tired of hearing how Trump is a bumbling, incompetent, idiot who can't get anything done and is failing miserably.

Not because I like or support the guy. I don't. At all. I think he is a horrible President in just about every conceivable way.

But to say he is anything but wildly successful seems... idiotic.

There was one commander in the US Civil War who was a master of deception, John Magruder. He would create fake cannons out of tree stumps, have men march around constantly so that it looked like there must be a whole bunch of troops - since usually it's just a small portion that you have reposition itself- and so on.

Magruder was a success. But he was successful because no one came attacking him.

Bernie Madoff, for example, was successful right up to the moment where it was revealed that everything had been a giant sham. Suddenly a whole bunch of people were out billions of dollars. The success of deception just depends on whether or not anyone comes to poke their head over the sheet and look at what's behind.

Now, the thing is, what if everyone knew that Magruder's army was largely fake? In war, information is just amazingly powerful. I mean, if you know where the gunpowder is stored and how to get to it unseen, you might be able to rob an army of ten thousand men of their military capabilities with just a few guys. The potential benefits can (depending on the situation) vastly outdo basic numbers.

If everyone knows that nothing Trump does nor says is real, then that doesn't necessarily mean that they reveal his secrets and make him out to look like an idiot. It may well be to their greatest advantage to help Trump maintain appearances.

Take, for example, China. If China knows that Trump is a useless idiot who doesn't understand basic economics, they might make like they're genuinely concerned about the Trade War; they might tariff us back; they might engage in trade negotiations. But that could all be a pretense to keep dragging Trump out while they build up the Polar North Road; while they sign deals with European markets to fill the gaps where US manufacturing used to be the primary supplier; and so on.

Say that Russia has video tapes of Trump having sex with 15 year old prostitute from back when he visited the country back in the 90s. They can tell him, you have to work to get us back into the G7 (Trump thinks that G7/G8 and other international networks and agreements are wasteful - yet somehow cares about whether Russia is a member?) and tell him to denounce the US intelligence organizations while standing next to Vladimir Putin. But they keep that all secret. Publicly they call him a great leader; they act like they're afraid of the US; and so on.

Mitch McConnell has strapped Trump with Dan Coats, James Mattis, Nikki Haley, Jeff Sessions, and other more-or-less reasonable people despite Trump's desire to stock it with people like Heather Nauert, Stephen Miller, and his sister. McConnell can successfully do that because, ultimately, Trump is an idiot who's easy to play. He loves having Trump in office because it distracts America from what the RNC is doing. McConnell has probably not read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but he recognizes the value of a Zaphod Beeblebrox as President of the Galaxy ("a role that involves no power whatsoever, and merely requires the incumbent to attract attention so no one wonders who's really in charge, a role for which Zaphod was perfectly suited").

Previous to becoming President, Trump was wildly successful at appearing to be relatively successful. That is not false.

But, in terms of his actual success, his dad owned what were probably several hundred properties across New York and New Jersey - prime real estate.

Donald Trump owns Trump Tower, Mar-A-Lago, and a few other golf resorts out of the city.

If you liquidate dad's holdings, it's likely to have been worth more than the 5 or so buildings that Donald owns. So while it may be fair to say that it's plausible that Trump is still a success in at least some terms - he does control genuinely valuable properties - it's still a fair step down from what he should have. And a lot of that loss seems likely to be due to mismanagement, fines, giant debts, etc. Given that it's Trump, it's hard to know whether the balance of the things he owns versus what-all-he-owes is positive.

I do know that it would be really stupid to allow your personal (criminal) lawyer flip on you, when he's being investigated by the FBI, if all it would take to prevent that is to help foot his legal expenses. That's just a done deal that you're boned and headed to jail if your personal lawyer - the guy who sets up your fake corporations and pays off your sexual assault victims - rats you out.

So when asking whether Trump's assets to debt ratio is positive.... I lean against.

Ravenman 09-10-2019 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852465)
I'm saying he is winning because not only is he not thrown out of office, broke and in jail, he is now is own judge and jury. He is lining his pockets with tax payer money and has even completely stopped any check Congress has on him, both through having Mitch in his back pocket and through just outright defying congressional subpoenas with no consequence.

Check the scoreboard. He is in power, untouchable, and raiding the country's coffers to his own benefit. It doesn't matter what other disasters he leaves behind, he is personally coming out WAY ahead. He is winning. Not the US. Him.

This is like saying John Dillinger was winning right up until the moment the woman in red showed up: you canít get me to switch places with him.

QuickSilver 09-10-2019 07:24 PM

1) H.L. Mencken was right.
2) Trump is every bit the incompetent fucking idiot everyone says he is.
3) The feckless cunts that is the Republican party deserve most of the credit for this cluster fuck.
4) Vlad punked America. Seriously, tho. Give Putin some credit.
5) Democrats never fail to talk tough and loud, and carry a wiffle bat.
6) Flaws inherent in the system have been exposed. Unlikely to be fixed.
7) Can't wait to see what he'll do for his last and final act. Should be a spectacular train wreck.

Great Antibob 09-10-2019 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glee (Post 21852491)
P.S. There was mention in the thread of a 'third term' - I assume that's a simple misprint for 'second term.'

You wish.

It was in the OP. Not a misprint. Feckless Leader is floating the idea of a third term while a second term is still in doubt and so far getting little to no traction for the idea.

Little Nemo 09-10-2019 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852465)
I'm saying he is winning because not only is he not thrown out of office, broke and in jail, he is now is own judge and jury. He is lining his pockets with tax payer money and has even completely stopped any check Congress has on him, both through having Mitch in his back pocket and through just outright defying congressional subpoenas with no consequence.

Check the scoreboard. He is in power, untouchable, and raiding the country's coffers to his own benefit. It doesn't matter what other disasters he leaves behind, he is personally coming out WAY ahead. He is winning. Not the US. Him.

It's easy to commit a crime. It takes brains to commit a crime and then get away with it.

Trump's still in the middle of the crime. We'll see if he gets away with it.

bobot 09-10-2019 07:48 PM

That was a nice take on it. So far, lots of his dear friends and highly placed criminal bastard cronies have not.

Vinyl Turnip 09-10-2019 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Antibob (Post 21852757)
You wish.

It was in the OP. Not a misprint. Feckless Leader is floating the idea of a third term while a second term is still in doubt and so far getting little to no traction for the idea.

I'm reassured, ever so slightly, by the conviction that at his rate of decline, in six years Trump will be sitting in piss-drenched Depends in a dayroom somewhere blowing raspberries into a cup of tapioca pudding. Then again, I'm still living in a fantasy world of nostalgia where there'd be bipartisan agreement that this makes him unfit for the office of the President of the United States of America.

bobot 09-10-2019 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip (Post 21852805)
...blowing raspberries into a cup of tapioca pudding. ...

Fuckin beautiful.

El_Kabong 09-10-2019 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21852465)
I'm saying he is winning because not only is he not thrown out of office, broke and in jail, he is now is own judge and jury. He is lining his pockets with tax payer money and has even completely stopped any check Congress has on him, both through having Mitch in his back pocket and through just outright defying congressional subpoenas with no consequence.

(my bolding)

I dispute the bolded text above. Defying congressional subpoenas requires resolution through the courts; this takes time. There is an abundance of chickens coming home to roost re: Trump that may not be readily apparent due to Congress coming off a lengthy summer break.

Quote:

Check the scoreboard. He is in power, untouchable, and raiding the country's coffers to his own benefit. It doesn't matter what other disasters he leaves behind, he is personally coming out WAY ahead. He is winning. Not the US. Him.
The Presidency is not a fucking football game. The "scoreboard" (which in this case seems to be little more than how many times Trump gets talked about) is beside the point. He is not "untouchable" in any way; at best, he has some skill at gaming the system to delay his day of reckoning.

Talk to me in April of next year, and we'll see what percentage of potential voters agree Trump is "winning".

Wesley Clark 09-10-2019 08:23 PM

I agree with OP.

Trump is above the law and he knows it. He can be as corrupt and criminal as he wants, worse case scenario is some toothless investigations that lead nowhere happen.

He has stacked the appellate court with conservative judges

He gave trillions in tax cuts for the rich that are paid for with tax hikes on the middle class and potentially cuts to social security and medicare.

He is winning in a lot of ways. Yeah he may lose in a lopsided election in 2020, but the GOP will just win again in 2022 and take back power in at least one house of congress.

septimus 09-11-2019 04:52 AM

OP definitely has a point. This is a man who has lived the lifestyle of a billionaire, whether he actually has a billion or not. He managed to become President of the United States, amazingly enough. This was especially remarkable given that, as is now fairly well known and documented, he didn't even want to win. His campaign was all a publicity stunt, hoping he could make a TV comeback and improve the value of the 'Trump' brand. And his Presidency has been successful on his terms: he's stolen many millions from taxpayers, wielded the wanton power he craves, improved his relationships with foreign gifters like Putin and MBS, avoided indictment and so on.

Perhaps most remarkably, he's done this all despite having little intellectual capacity, and with a brat-like personality devoid of any normal compassion. I'm not sure what the psychiatrists say, but he seems like a supreme sociopath. He will go down in history as a special and unique American personality. One possible comparison that comes to mind is with William Randolph Hearst. Hearst was also an egomaniac with a huge appetite for political success, who had fondnesses for rich living and publicizing lies. (There are big differences between Hearst and Trump. Hearst had a keen analytic mind, and was extremely hard-working. Hearst got huge loyalty from his employees, and was generous to an excess. Politically, Hearst favored minimum wage laws and other ideas that were very progressive for his time, while Trump has helped return the country to the kleptocratic excesses of Hearst's time.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocity (Post 21852311)
If we evaluate by presidential standards, he will always be ranked low by historians. Probably bottom-ten or bottom-five out of 45 presidents.

Ya think? Only four or nine past Presidents worse than Trump? It might be amusing to hear who you think they are.

Since we're in the Pit, let me ask fellow Dopers: What is the deal with Velocity? He doesn't come across as a right-winger(*) exactly, but he sure does Just Ask Questions a lot.

(* - And no, admitting that Trump is one of the "five or ten worst Presidents" doesn't mean someone is not a right-winger. ALL Americans, left or right, with an IQ bigger than a centipede's understand that this abomination is by far the worst President ever.)

Der Trihs 09-11-2019 05:22 AM

Trump didn't "win"; winning implies some sort of responsibility for the result. Just like everything else in his life he was handed victory by a system built to reward rich, evil people like him. His entire life has been a matter of him staggering from one disaster to the next and being rewarded for his failures. He flails about randomly and is rewarded over and over in spite of his own utter incompetence.

He was railroaded into the Presidency by a rigged electoral system and a Republican party that carved a Trump-shaped hole into itself he only had to step into. And he's supported by people who only care about how much harm he can do; the Republican base is composed of people willing to suffer and die as long as they can watch the world burn.

When you define "success" as ruining everything around you, any fool can do that. Even a fool like Trump.

Vinyl Turnip 09-11-2019 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by septimus (Post 21853332)
Since we're in the Pit, let me ask fellow Dopers: What is the deal with Velocity? He doesn't come across as a right-winger(*) exactly, but he sure does Just Ask Questions a lot.

He is deeply concerned. Deeply.

Dinsdale 09-11-2019 08:20 AM

Yeah, the OP definitely has a point. As best I can tell, Trump is ALL about self promotion and ego gratification, combined with material greed. With respect to the first 2, it is hard to imagine how one could be more successful than to become president of the US, driving daily news reporting and water cooler discussions with tweets from his shitter. The extent to which he has financially succeeded will have to be judged later. I HOPE there are prosecutions when he is out of office which seriously harm his and his family's portfolio, but I'm not holding my breath. I'd imagine he will live out his years being feted by the same mouthbreathers who attend his rallies. All the while enjoying the security, benefits, and advantages of an ex-president.

cmosdes 09-11-2019 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Trihs (Post 21853344)
Trump didn't "win"; winning implies some sort of responsibility for the result. Just like everything else in his life he was handed victory by a system built to reward rich, evil people like him. His entire life has been a matter of him staggering from one disaster to the next and being rewarded for his failures. He flails about randomly and is rewarded over and over in spite of his own utter incompetence.

He was railroaded into the Presidency by a rigged electoral system and a Republican party that carved a Trump-shaped hole into itself he only had to step into. And he's supported by people who only care about how much harm he can do; the Republican base is composed of people willing to suffer and die as long as they can watch the world burn.

When you define "success" as ruining everything around you, any fool can do that. Even a fool like Trump.

Bolding mine. He is winning. How else do you define victory? Handed to him or not, rewarded out of luck or because of others, he is the one sitting in the presidency and is untouchable. You might say he didn't earn it, but that doesn't change the result.

guizot 09-11-2019 09:01 AM

He's a successful swindler but an incompetent president, surrounded by sycophants who are taking advantage of the situation.

cmosdes 09-11-2019 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Kabong (Post 21852836)
(my bolding)

I dispute the bolded text above. Defying congressional subpoenas requires resolution through the courts; this takes time. There is an abundance of chickens coming home to roost re: Trump that may not be readily apparent due to Congress coming off a lengthy summer break.

Until that day comes, and I have serious doubts congress will ever have the courage to stand up to him, he is winning. And with each passing day he gets more and more of his lackies in positions to help him. Everyone that crosses him ends up in jail or out of a job. There are very few left that will have any chance of herding those chickens.


Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Kabong (Post 21852836)
The Presidency is not a fucking football game. The "scoreboard" (which in this case seems to be little more than how many times Trump gets talked about) is beside the point. He is not "untouchable" in any way; at best, he has some skill at gaming the system to delay his day of reckoning.

Talk to me in April of next year, and we'll see what percentage of potential voters agree Trump is "winning".

The scoreboard is a metaphor for whether or not he is ahead of everyone else. He is. He is the fucking president. The scoreboard isn't about name recognition. It is about power and influence, unchecked at that. If that isn't winning, if that doesn't mean he isn't ahead of everyone else, I don't know how you are defining winning.

I hope you are right about April. But North Carolina was lost yesterday and that is a strong indication Trump is still going to be around. If Trump were so much of an imbecile, so much of clueless feck, he wouldn't keep falling up.

As an aside, how come you get to use farming metaphors "chickens/roosting" but when I use sports analogies I'm sorta chastised that this isn't a "fucking football game." Should I point out that using the phrase "chickens coming home to roost" is wrong because this isn't a fucking farm?

cmosdes 09-11-2019 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guizot (Post 21853665)
He's a successful swindler but an incompetent president, surrounded by sycophants who are taking advantage of the situation.

Agreed. But he is the one in power and there seems to be no way to remove him from it since the only ones available to do so refuse to act.

My point wasn't whether he is a good president, it is whether he is winning. He is winning.

Bryan Ekers 09-11-2019 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocity (Post 21852311)
He's gone further in life than 99.999% of people.

In fairness, he started in life ahead of 99.99% of people.

Knowed Out 09-11-2019 09:25 AM

I agrew with the OP. In the end, Trump is only concerned for himself. He knows he can cry and spittle like a baby and his supporters will overlook it. Anyone in a position to tell him "no" gets thrown under not just a bus, but a whole fleet.

After his reign is over, he'll still enjoy the benefits of his notoriety. All his shady legal situations will have been defanged by his and Mitch's policies, and he can rely on the snail-paced speed of government to not be able change them back until he's long past dead and buried. He'll make zillions from endorsements, speaking rallies, more autobiographies, and foreign investors who previously had to contend with legal barriers.

Trump is winning for himself, not the US. We're just a means to an end. That's all that matters to him. It doesn't matter how incompetent he is as president, and he knows it. If he can't find enough toadies to help him get away with murder, he'll "I didn't know them that well" them out of his way and find somebody else.

Snowboarder Bo 09-11-2019 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21853647)
Bolding mine. He is winning. How else do you define victory? Handed to him or not, rewarded out of luck or because of others, he is the one sitting in the presidency and is untouchable. You might say he didn't earn it, but that doesn't change the result.

King Joffrey was winning too. Had the crown handed to him, too, thru the luck of his birth.

Czarcasm 09-11-2019 10:21 AM

If people insist that a fool is a king, that does not mean that he is a king-it means that those people are fools.

Inigo Montoya 09-11-2019 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glee (Post 21852491)
P.S. There was mention in the thread of a 'third term' - I assume that's a simple misprint for 'second term.'

Aragorn: Are you frightened?
Frodo: Yes
Aragorn: Not nearly frightened enough, I know what hunts you.

The OP is bordering on histrionic, but I just can't find it in myself to fault that. Trump has got the fucking ring.

Little Nemo 09-11-2019 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21853647)
Bolding mine. He is winning. How else do you define victory? Handed to him or not, rewarded out of luck or because of others, he is the one sitting in the presidency and is untouchable. You might say he didn't earn it, but that doesn't change the result.

It's the way our political system is designed. Getting into the Presidency is difficult. But one you get there, it's easy to stay there for at least four years.

I've always said that Trump is a great salesman. That made him a good candidate and he was able to get enough votes to be declared the winner. And while Trump benefited from a voting system that has been set up to favor Republicans, he had nothing to do with setting it up.

Trump succeeded to becoming President. He's failing at being President. He stopped winning on January 20, 2017.

cmosdes 09-11-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya (Post 21853933)
The OP is bordering on histrionic

Please elaborate.

Annoyed 09-11-2019 11:13 AM

Trump is gonna win again and it’ll be no ones fault but the oppositions.

The left needs votes from independents and fence sitters but all they do is vilify, throw shit, isolate themselves, and fall off the left side of the political map.

Bryan Ekers 09-11-2019 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annoyed (Post 21854043)
Trump is gonna win again and itíll be no ones fault but the oppositions.

The left needs votes from independents and fence sitters but all they do is vilify, throw shit, isolate themselves, and fall off the left side of the political map.

Sounds like both a convenient and inaccurate excuse to absolve Trump voters.

Der Trihs 09-11-2019 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21853647)
Bolding mine. He is winning. How else do you define victory?

Actually accomplishing something by your own efforts. A chimpanzee could do as well or better than him, and I wouldn't credit a chimp with "victory" if people made it President.

Euphonious Polemic 09-11-2019 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annoyed (Post 21854043)
Trump is gonna win again and itíll be no ones fault but the oppositions.

The left needs votes from independents and fence sitters but all they do is vilify, throw shit, isolate themselves, and fall off the left side of the political map.

"The left of the political map" being defined as "anyone who does not think that dirty immigrants should be locked up in cages"

begbert2 09-11-2019 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowed Out (Post 21853742)
I agrew with the OP. In the end, Trump is only concerned for himself. He knows he can cry and spittle like a baby and his supporters will overlook it. Anyone in a position to tell him "no" gets thrown under not just a bus, but a whole fleet.

After his reign is over, he'll still enjoy the benefits of his notoriety. All his shady legal situations will have been defanged by his and Mitch's policies, and he can rely on the snail-paced speed of government to not be able change them back until he's long past dead and buried. He'll make zillions from endorsements, speaking rallies, more autobiographies, and foreign investors who previously had to contend with legal barriers.

Trump is winning for himself, not the US. We're just a means to an end. That's all that matters to him. It doesn't matter how incompetent he is as president, and he knows it. If he can't find enough toadies to help him get away with murder, he'll "I didn't know them that well" them out of his way and find somebody else.

Or, alternatively, jail.

I'm pretty sure that about 99% of the reason he keeps talking about third, fourth and fifth terms in this job he doesn't like is because one of the few things he fully understands is that the sharks are circling him and the presidency is his shark cage. Once he's out of it, he's dead meat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinsdale (Post 21853546)
Yeah, the OP definitely has a point. As best I can tell, Trump is ALL about self promotion and ego gratification, combined with material greed. With respect to the first 2, it is hard to imagine how one could be more successful than to become president of the US, driving daily news reporting and water cooler discussions with tweets from his shitter. The extent to which he has financially succeeded will have to be judged later. I HOPE there are prosecutions when he is out of office which seriously harm his and his family's portfolio, but I'm not holding my breath. I'd imagine he will live out his years being feted by the same mouthbreathers who attend his rallies. All the while enjoying the security, benefits, and advantages of an ex-president.

For getting everything he wants, he's reported as being furious, like, all the time. He's all about ego gratification and the presidency doesn't give him that - he's constantly aware that most of the population and all the world leaders think he's a piece of shitty toilet paper stuck to America's shoe. He's constantly lashing out at the people who don't suck up to him.

His happiest times appear to be when he's campaigning, before mostly-empty high-school gymnasiums with tiny crowds that genuinely adore him. But when he has to be president it's nothing but grief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21853647)
Bolding mine. He is winning. How else do you define victory? Handed to him or not, rewarded out of luck or because of others, he is the one sitting in the presidency and is untouchable. You might say he didn't earn it, but that doesn't change the result.

He's an unhappy, scared little man. I'm winning way more than that, sheerly on the basis that I'm satisfied with most parts of my life.

cmosdes 09-11-2019 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Trihs (Post 21854745)
Actually accomplishing something by your own efforts. A chimpanzee could do as well or better than him, and I wouldn't credit a chimp with "victory" if people made it President.

Huh. When was the last chimp you met that lived the lifestyle of a billionaire? One that owned multiple luxury resorts? One that was elected president?

People have never made a chimp President. They never will. Your definition is absurd. You are exactly the type that I'm railing against. You are refusing to acknowledge that Trump has gotten himself into a very, very successful position. As wrong as that is, to continue to deny he made it there is dumb because it likely means he will continue to succeed due to people continue to under estimate him. You can rail all you want to say he was just plain lucky and fortunate and hope his luck runs out, but he continues to do what he wants when he wants.

Bury your head in the sand, plug your ears and say, "la la la la la" all you want. He got there. He needs to be gone and waiting for him to screw it up himself is seeming to be less and less likely.

cmosdes 09-11-2019 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begbert2 (Post 21854831)
He's an unhappy, scared little man. I'm winning way more than that, sheerly on the basis that I'm satisfied with most parts of my life.

I'm not so sure he is as dissatisfied as you outlined, but if he is, sure, you are ahead of him under a different definition of winning.

begbert2 09-11-2019 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmosdes (Post 21854902)
Huh. When was the last chimp you met that lived the lifestyle of a billionaire? One that owned multiple luxury resorts? One that was elected president?

Actually 100% of chimps who are sons of multimillionaires end up living lives of luxury. And, by sheer chance, all of them have also been elected president!

Human sons of multimillionaires don't do as well as chimp sons of multimillionaires, sadly.

Inigo Montoya 09-11-2019 05:37 PM

Trump got there exactly because he understood his electorate and appealed to it in the right way through a series of calculated steps and statements. He remains there because he made deals with key people whose position would otherwise be able to facilitate his removal from office--and those deals were made before they were needed. That takes insight and planning, and as such a desired result = win. Trump amazes me with his skills and foresight, and his ability to constantly play the buffoon nevertheless. The son of a bitch is a master of misdirection and should be studied.


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