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-   -   Is Mexico a failed state? (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=884063)

HurricaneDitka 10-23-2019 01:49 AM

Is Mexico a failed state?
 
This was posted a couple of days ago, regarding the recent fighting in Culiacán:

Quote:

You may have read the news just a few days back: the Mexican military captured not one but two of El Chapo’s sons in the heart of Culiacán, the Sinaloan capital. One son freed himself—which is to say his entourage and retainers at hand overpowered and killed the soldiers at hand—and then, in a decisive riposte, seized the entire city center of Culiacán to compel the liberation of his brother.

The forces that emerged were in the literal sense awesome and awful. Heavy weaponry that would be familiar on any Iraqi, Syrian, or Yemeni battlefield was brought to bear. More and worse: custom-built armored vehicles, designed and built to make a Sahel-warfare technical look like an amateur’s weekend kit job, were rolled out for their combat debut. Most critically, all this hardware was manned by men with qualities the Mexican Army largely lacks: training, tactical proficiency, and motivation.

Then the coup de grace: as the Chapo sons’ forces engaged in direct combat with their own national military, kill squads went into action across Culiacán, slaughtering the families of soldiers engaged in the streets.

Cowed and overmatched—most crucially in the moral arena—the hapless band of soldiers still holding the second son finally received word from Mexico City, direct from President AMLO himself: surrender. Surrender and release the prisoner.

It’s an absolutely extraordinary episode even by the grim and bizarre annals of what we mistakenly call the post-2006 Mexican Drug War. The Battle of Culiacán stands on a level above, say, the Ayotzinapa massacre, or the Zetas’ expulsion of the entire population of Ciudad Mier. Killing scores of innocents and brutalizing small towns is one thing: seizing regional capital cities and crushing the national armed forces in open fighting in broad daylight is something else.

“Drug War” is a misnomer for reasons the Culiacán battle lays bare. This is not a mafia-type problem, nor one comprehensible within the framework of law enforcement and crime. This is something very much like an insurgency now—think of the eruption of armed resistance in Culiacán in 2019 as something like that in Sadr City in 2004—and also something completely like state collapse. ...
The fact that a drug cartel was able to fight the army to enough of a stalemate that the government acceded to their demand seems ... significant. Personally, I find it surprising, and I suppose somewhat impressive in its own right, that a non-state entity has been able to amass this much weaponry and organize such an effective response plan, and that they were so effective in executing it. I suspect more than a few of the world's militaries would struggle to put together a similar response that they could enact on short notice.

OTOH, perhaps the article is making too much out of one botched operation. What do you think? Does this signal darker days ahead for Mexico? The author concludes:

Quote:

... Mexico is not an enemy state, and the Mexicans are not an enemy people. Yet as Mexico falls apart, we need to ask ourselves questions normally reserved for objectively hostile nations. There is a war underway. It won’t stop at the border.

It’s time to look south, and think.

Nava 10-23-2019 01:56 AM

The situation with the cartels is not new at all. Or with police corruption. Things have gone seriously downhill in some areas; Monterrey now has a lot more cartel penetration than it did 20 years ago, but it also still has one of the best engineering schools in Latin America (if not the best one). In other areas, things have gotten better. More people have jobs and better jobs now than twenty years ago, globally. Does Mexico have problems? Yes, big ones, and some of them are structural (the whole land-ownership problem for example), but it's far from a failed state.

RickJay 10-23-2019 07:30 AM

Mexico is a big country and not everywhere is like that.

But... a monopoly on the use of force is a fundamental qualification of a functioning nation-state. A drug cartel being able to fight the army to a draw and extract concessions is a profound failure of the apparatus of state. There isn't any point in denying that, and the fact Monterrey has a good engineering school has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

l0k1 10-23-2019 07:43 AM

Mexico is in the middle of an ongoing civil war. I don't think the government has failed yet. If their wealthier neighbor to the north would stop sending guns and money to the insurgency, then the government would quickly regain power in the areas that it was lost.

Nava 10-23-2019 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJay (Post 21932431)
Mexico is a big country and not everywhere is like that.

But... a monopoly on the use of force is a fundamental qualification of a functioning nation-state. A drug cartel being able to fight the army to a draw and extract concessions is a profound failure of the apparatus of state. There isn't any point in denying that, and the fact Monterrey has a good engineering school has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

It was just a way to indicate that most people still manage to live lives that people in developed countries would consider "normal". A lot of the day-to-day stuff still works roughly as intended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by l0k1 (Post 21932440)
Mexico is in the middle of an ongoing civil war. I don't think the government has failed yet. If their wealthier neighbor to the north would stop sending guns and money to the insurgency, then the government would quickly regain power in the areas that it was lost.

To be fair, I don't think this time the US government is doing it on purpose. It has many policies which result, among other things, in drug money and drug guns going to Mexico, but it seems to be more through short-sightedness than on purpose.

LAZombie 10-23-2019 08:16 AM

Question: Are the Mexican Cartels strictly economic or are there political or ideological components?

Isamu 10-23-2019 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAZombie (Post 21932466)
Question: Are the Mexican Cartels strictly economic or are there political or ideological components?

Like any company, their overarching concern is strictly economic. How they accomplish making money may vary depending on circumstances.

Urbanredneck 10-23-2019 10:46 AM

Well if its such a good place, then why do so many want to move here or have people here sending them money?

No, its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas.

Procrustus 10-23-2019 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck (Post 21932778)
Well if its such a good place, then why do so many want to move here or have people here sending them money?

No, its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas.

Don’t forget, some Americans are moving there too. My brother, for example, is building a beach house in Mexico right now.

I was in Mexico last week. No one I talked to expressed a desire to leave.

Lightnin' 10-23-2019 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Procrustus (Post 21932833)
Don’t forget, some Americans are moving there too. My brother, for example, is building a beach house in Mexico right now.

I was in Mexico last week. No one I talked to expressed a desire to leave.

I have some friends who moved to the Lake Chapala area about five years ago. They love it and have no desire to move back to the US. I almost joined them, but I got a job offer in Canada.

Balthisar 10-23-2019 02:29 PM

If the narcos move in, they move in. San Miguel de Allende is an awesome, little town, and it has a sizeable expat community as well. I'm not sure how serious the situation is, but I read a few weeks ago that some cartel was making overtures by trying to extort some restaurants. Once that happens, it's really hard to stop the cascade.

Nava 10-24-2019 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck (Post 21932778)
its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas.

That applies to the US as well. In different ways it applies to any countries larger than Andorra and a few smaller ones.

HurricaneDitka 10-24-2019 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nava (Post 21934352)
That applies to the US as well. In different ways it applies to any countries larger than Andorra and a few smaller ones.

Most / all countries have problems. Relatively few countries have gangs capable of fighting their army so ferociously that their president capitulates to their demands.

Kimstu 10-24-2019 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka (Post 21934379)
Relatively few countries have gangs capable of fighting their army so ferociously that their president capitulates to their demands.

:dubious: The various Bundy terrorism standoffs, anybody?

If mere capitulation is your criterion, our homegrown American anti-government gangs have forced that more than once now in our own "failed state".

HMS Irruncible 10-24-2019 08:39 AM

The US was not a "failed state" in 1862 by any reasonable measure. Likewise, neither is Mexico today.

CBEscapee 10-25-2019 03:57 PM

Sadly enough, México is dangerously close to becoming a failed state. In many areas the cartels have become the defacto rulers. The government may still run the day to day operations such as infrastructure and many civil matters but the justice system has pretty much been taken over. Law enforcement has either been intimidated or bought off. The cartels know who is who and what is what. Step out of line and pay a heavy price. It is really sad situation and there doesn't seem to be a remedy. There is no hero with a white hat riding into town like in American cowboy movies to deal with the bad guys and restoring the rule of law.

Balthisar 10-25-2019 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBEscapee (Post 21937624)
There is no hero with a white hat riding into town like in American cowboy movies to deal with the bad guys and restoring the rule of law.

We might fill that role for you, but we have a habit of overstaying our welcome.

HurricaneDitka 10-25-2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimstu (Post 21934561)
:dubious: The various Bundy terrorism standoffs, anybody?

If mere capitulation is your criterion, our homegrown American anti-government gangs have forced that more than once now in our own "failed state".

I specified capitulation by their president to hopefully head off this tangent. It apparently didn't work. I'm sure that at times and places in this country various entities have been intimidated. Rarely has that intimidation come in the form of open battles with authorities and I can't readily recall any incidents where the president capitulated to their demand(s) because of open gun battles.

HurricaneDitka 10-25-2019 05:28 PM

I don't know about a hero with a white hat riding into town, but there have been incidents where the townspeople rose up and defended their town themselves:

Foreign Affairs - The Rise of Mexico’s Self-Defense Forces

LA Times - In one small Mexican town, the citizens become armed vigilantes to take on a drug gang

New Yorker - A Mexican Town Wages Its Own War on Drugs

Wikipedia - Grupos de Autodefensa Comunitaria

Wesley Clark 10-25-2019 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck (Post 21932778)
Well if its such a good place, then why do so many want to move here or have people here sending them money?

No, its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas.

Its not somalia but they are a middle income nation with a GDP of over a trillion dollars.

People move here because of higher wages. If Canada offered $70/hr for unskilled labor then tons and tons of Americans would move there legally and illegally to work.

RioRico 10-25-2019 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka (Post 21937779)
I don't know about a hero with a white hat riding into town, but there have been incidents where the townspeople rose up and defended their town themselves:
<snip>
Wikipedia - Grupos de Autodefensa Comunitaria

From that Wikipedia article:
Quote:

Corruption
As Autodefensas groups grew, it was hard to maintain a centralized group of leaders. Because of the lack of oversight of Autodefensas groups, these organizations began to be joined by former cartel members and people who felt above the law. One problem that Autodefensas groups faced was a lack of resources, specifically guns. Originally the weapons that Autodefensas managed to recover from skirmishes with cartels were sufficient to arm the vigilantes, as these groups got bigger this did not suffice. In order to arm themselves, many Autodefensas groups began to sell drugs in order to buy weapons.[3]

When some Autodefensas groups began to sell drugs, a new cartel emerged from the Autodefensas. Today, this new cartel is called "Los Viagras" (known to have ties with the Jalisco New Generation Cartel)[7]and is led by one of the former leaders of the Autodefensas, Nicolás Sierra Santana, who is also known as "El Gordo". Los Viagras has been criticized by the government as well as other cartels for their brutal killings and general violence. The infamy of Los Viagras cartel has made their leader, Nicolás Sierra Santana, one of the most wanted men in Mexico.[8]
Do we know the fates of other Mexican community self-defense groups? How many survive, and why?

GIGObuster 10-25-2019 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka (Post 21934379)
Most / all countries have problems. Relatively few countries have gangs capable of fighting their army so ferociously that their president capitulates to their demands.

Thing is, continuing with the stupid war on drugs* means that it is not only in Mexico were the power of the drug traffickers will increase.

Why The War on Drugs Is a Huge Failure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI&





* A lot of the power that we have seen in Mexico recently has been thanks to the war on drugs that paradoxically continues to make drug trafficking to be more profitable than before, leading to corruption in both developed or developing nations (and the US is not immune to that) and an increase in the power of gangsters. Not only in Mexico but also in the US.

https://www.econlib.org/library/Colu...welldrugs.html
The Economics Behind the U.S. Government's Unwinnable War on Drugs

Lamoral 10-25-2019 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimstu (Post 21934561)
:dubious: The various Bundy terrorism standoffs, anybody?

If mere capitulation is your criterion, our homegrown American anti-government gangs have forced that more than once now in our own "failed state".

Out-bluffing the government, and actually defeating them on the battlefield, are two really really different things, this is not a clever "Gotcha", it's not the same man. And you know it.

With that said, this sounds like the kind of situation where Mexico's allies ought to offer military aid. Right? I'm not asking this rhetorically - is it something that could actually be worked out?

Lamoral 10-25-2019 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIGObuster (Post 21937962)
Thing is, continuing with the stupid war on drugs* means that it is not only in Mexico were the power of the drug traffickers will increase.

Why The War on Drugs Is a Huge Failure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI&

The prison industry is a business just like the drug cartels are a business. In this case they happen to be working hand in hand.

Dr_Paprika 10-25-2019 08:49 PM

No, Mexico is far from a failed state.

Government has many purposes. To provide security, health, education, infrastructure, economic management, jobs, promote agriculture and tourism, foreign policy, etc.

Mexico remains a deeply religious country. It has acceptable health, education and management. Its current president is generally well liked, and has done a reasonable job of dealing with Trump and the US.

Mexico has some areas which are problematic. There are gangs in some areas, and journalism and mayor can be dangerous professions in some cities. The army and police are not always able to solve some problems, which are becoming more severe. But Mexico remains an attractive place to live, and able to attract wealthy mega corporations, tourism and investment. There have been some measures to deal with corruption, though success has been limited. However, the President is motivated and is personally considered to be honest.

MEBuckner 10-25-2019 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Paprika (Post 21938104)
Mexico remains a deeply religious country.

I'm not actually arguing that Mexico is a failed state, but I don't really see the relevance of this sentence. Somalia, the archetypal "failed state", is also a "deeply religious country". Before Somalia, Lebanon was another notorious "failed state" for a long time, and was also "deeply religious" (in the case of Lebanon, one issue was that not all of the Lebanese were deeply adhering to the same religion, or to the same sect of the same religion).

Dr_Paprika 10-25-2019 09:35 PM

I agree the statement isn’t that significant — religious countries can be violent. It was more to emphasize that daily activities for most Mexicans have not been changed. Social structures like religion, health and education systems go on. In failed states, they do not.

There is a good article on this weeks Economist discussing the raid. It seems to have been poorly planned with very limited backup, resulting in a very public crisis. The magazine argues the President favours a diplomatic approach rather than strengthening the police and judiciary. It is true violence seems worse when the government is aggressive, but the strategy has not yet been successful. The article suggests economic reforms may be more successful in the long run, which is controversial, and these reforms will take time.

CBEscapee 10-25-2019 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamoral (Post 21938034)
Out-bluffing the government, and actually defeating them on the battlefield, are two really really different things, this is not a clever "Gotcha", it's not the same man. And you know it.

With that said, this sounds like the kind of situation where Mexico's allies ought to offer military aid. Right? I'm not asking this rhetorically - is it something that could actually be worked out?

What allies are those? The Americans? The last I heard they want to wall us in and send us the bill. And you might want to learn the history of all the gringo invasions for the last nearly 200 years.

I know I will get in trouble for saying this but people posting about México on this thread really have no clue about the true situation we live in. And to even suggest some type of military invasion is typical. Maybe you should try to figure out how to stop the war on drugs that has had horrible consequences for us as a nation and as people that want to live peacefully. Maybe you could do a bit better curbing your drug problem that funds this lawlessness. That would help far more than adding to the violence by sending unwanted foreign military aid(?).

Lamoral 10-25-2019 11:08 PM

Not suggesting that anyone "invade" Mexico. Not suggesting either that America is the specific ally who could offer military aid to Mexico. Mexico has other allies. And I'm in agreement with your take on the drug situation anyway.

CBEscapee 10-25-2019 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamoral (Post 21938233)
Not suggesting that anyone "invade" Mexico. Not suggesting either that America is the specific ally who could offer military aid to Mexico. Mexico has other allies. And I'm in agreement with your take on the drug situation anyway.

We belong to the OEA which has a very loose military agreement among its members. But other than the US, none would even think of any kind of military assistance. It wouldn't even be considered. Most members have plenty of their own security issues to deal with to intervene in anothers.

Besides, Calderón tried a heavy miltary response against the cartels and that only worked to increase the violence and add to human rights abuses. AMLO proposes a different approach and that will fail also. There will never be any winner in a drug war. Other countries such as Portugal have realized this and instituted a successful strategy of treating it as a public health problem and not criminal. Drug abuse there has been greatly reduced along with a big decline in the crime rate.

Maddodge 10-26-2019 12:09 PM

A third world nation at our back door
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka (Post 21932288)
This was posted a couple of days ago, regarding the recent fighting in Culiacán:



The fact that a drug cartel was able to fight the army to enough of a stalemate that the government acceded to their demand seems ... significant. Personally, I find it surprising, and I suppose somewhat impressive in its own right, that a non-state entity has been able to amass this much weaponry and organize such an effective response plan, and that they were so effective in executing it. I suspect more than a few of the world's militaries would struggle to put together a similar response that they could enact on short notice.

OTOH, perhaps the article is making too much out of one botched operation. What do you think? Does this signal darker days ahead for Mexico? The author concludes:

We do not need a third world country at our back door. the people of Mexico deserve our help in defeating these drug cartels. Mexico is a beautiful place and holds large amounts of the worlds natural resources .we never hesitate in flexing our military might around the world, why not in our own back yard? I suspect the corruption is on both sides of the border.

Isosleepy 10-26-2019 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddodge (Post 21938955)
We do not need a third world country at our back door. the people of Mexico deserve our help in defeating these drug cartels. Mexico is a beautiful place and holds large amounts of the worlds natural resources .we never hesitate in flexing our military might around the world, why not in our own back yard? I suspect the corruption is on both sides of the border.

Why not? Well, flexing our military might has an... imperfect... record, for starters. Also, flexing military might is hard to distinguish from going to war, and not going to war with or in your direct neighbors is generally seen as a good thing. But the main reason is that military intervention is not likely to address what causes and perpetuates the cartels’ abilities to thrive in Mexico.

As to a failed state, while not universal, significant chunks of law enforcement and judiciary are ineffective, for hire or for sale, or actively engaged in crime. That would put Mexico closer to failed than not, imo. What’s not helping Mexico is that they are engaged in fighting a problem that isn’t theirs: drug smuggling. If they entirely ignored the drugs, but used those resources to combat murder and kidnapping, it’d be interesting to see what would happen.

SamuelA 10-26-2019 01:41 PM

What happens now? It isn't correct to say that U.S. government or police forces have a monopoly on force, or that they don't sometimes lose a battle. Not only did this happen lots of times during the Civil War, but more recently, the branch davidians forced the ATF squad sent to arrest them to retreat.

So the ATF lost the battle...but they didn't lose the war. Overwhelming forces surrounded the compound and while it was unfortunate (and somewhat of a PR disaster) what happened to some of the hostages, the key thing is that no one who shot at U.S. government forces came out of the compound except in cuffs or a body bag.

I would assume that this is what the Mexican authorities are expected to do? Prevent anyone who might be associated with the cartel from leaving culiacan, surround the city, and crush any resistance one street at a time?

CBEscapee 10-26-2019 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddodge (Post 21938955)
We do not need a third world country at our back door. the people of Mexico deserve our help in defeating these drug cartels. Mexico is a beautiful place and holds large amounts of the worlds natural resources .we never hesitate in flexing our military might around the world, why not in our own back yard? I suspect the corruption is on both sides of the border.

In the first place, our military has the means to combat the cartels. It isn't a problem of firepower. They fought the cartels during Calderón's term and much of Peña Nieto's. It only served to increase casualties of innocents.

Too much is being made of the failed attempt to get Chapo's sons. It was simply a poorly planned operation. Incorrect tactics. Once the cartels detect large movements of troops and equipment, they quickly head for their hideouts in the Sierra Madre. So they went with a smaller force and that turned into a disaster.

Balthisar 10-26-2019 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBEscapee (Post 21938258)
Besides, Calderón tried a heavy miltary response against the cartels and that only worked to increase the violence and add to human rights abuses. AMLO proposes a different approach and that will fail also. There will never be any winner in a drug war. Other countries such as Portugal have realized this and instituted a successful strategy of treating it as a public health problem and not criminal. Drug abuse there has been greatly reduced along with a big decline in the crime rate.

If the narcos were getting rich off of drugs, they wouldn't be so heavy in the secuestros and the extorsión and all of that other, lovely stuff. If you legalized drugs, and even if the USA legalized drugs, do you thing that these guys would just lay down their guns and start hugging each other?

CBEscapee 10-26-2019 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balthisar (Post 21939170)
If the narcos were getting rich off of drugs, they wouldn't be so heavy in the secuestros and the extorsión and all of that other, lovely stuff. If you legalized drugs, and even if the USA legalized drugs, do you thing that these guys would just lay down their guns and start hugging each other?

No, of course not. But drug money is what finances the infrastructure that enables the other operations. And it frees resources to combat other types of crime. It wouldn'y happen overnight. And maybe the real waelthy narcos would be content sinking their money into legitament businesses with no risk of jail or death.

Balthisar 10-27-2019 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBEscapee (Post 21939175)
And maybe the real waelthy narcos would be content sinking their money into legitament businesses with no risk of jail or death.

Godfather III vibes, here.

Sage Rat 10-27-2019 10:09 PM

I would argue that the US harms Mexico in three ways:

1) Dutiful, hard working Mexicans migrate to the US during their prime years to earn money for the rest of the family, leaving behind all the ones who couldn't be sold on the idea that they had a duty to be a good son/daughter. Basically, the country's entire 20-40 year old population segment is highly skewed towards slackers and deadbeats.
2) Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay "rustic" so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize.
3) And, obviously, the US serves as a giant consumer of recreational drugs and Mexico is a good staging ground for what is a multi hundreds of billions dollar industry. Remember that the budget for NASA is only something like $10b a year. Drug cartels have the financial resources - if they can corner the market - to put satellites into outer space.

#2 has kept Mexico from ever advancing. But, I think, the increase in #1 has helped the cartels to really take off.

Whether to call that "a failed state", I don't know, but it's a more significant problem than anyone in the US is really considering.

bump 10-28-2019 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Rat (Post 21941025)
I would argue that the US harms Mexico in three ways:

1) Dutiful, hard working Mexicans migrate to the US during their prime years to earn money for the rest of the family, leaving behind all the ones who couldn't be sold on the idea that they had a duty to be a good son/daughter. Basically, the country's entire 20-40 year old population segment is highly skewed towards slackers and deadbeats.
2) Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay "rustic" so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize.
3) And, obviously, the US serves as a giant consumer of recreational drugs and Mexico is a good staging ground for what is a multi hundreds of billions dollar industry. Remember that the budget for NASA is only something like $10b a year. Drug cartels have the financial resources - if they can corner the market - to put satellites into outer space.

#2 has kept Mexico from ever advancing. But, I think, the increase in #1 has helped the cartels to really take off.

Whether to call that "a failed state", I don't know, but it's a more significant problem than anyone in the US is really considering.

None of those are the US's responsibility, and at any rate, the first two are questionable- what evidence is there that Mexico is full of lazy, stupid deadbeats because the smart, hardworking ones are in the US? And I'd wager that the VAST majority of US/Mexico tourism is in 3 areas- the beach resorts like Cancun, the border cities like Matamoros or Tijuana, and then the archaelogical sites like Chichen Itza. None of that is keeping the country rustic.

The third is less questionable, but at any rate, it's an effect of the US illegal drug trade, not something deliberate that we're doing to Mexico. It just happens that Mexico is a convenient and economically advantageous place to funnel drugs to the US and to grow a great deal of them as well. But if Mexico wasn't convenient or advantageous, that trade would find other ways to satisfy that demand.

Velocity 10-28-2019 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Rat (Post 21941025)
I would argue that the US harms Mexico in three ways:

1) Dutiful, hard working Mexicans migrate to the US during their prime years to earn money for the rest of the family, leaving behind all the ones who couldn't be sold on the idea that they had a duty to be a good son/daughter. Basically, the country's entire 20-40 year old population segment is highly skewed towards slackers and deadbeats.

What is the USA supposed to do about this "harm," if by merely existing, we draw the "dutiful, hardworking" Mexicans into the USA? Should we.....build a wall?

SamuelA 10-28-2019 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocity (Post 21941883)
What is the USA supposed to do about this "harm," if by merely existing, we draw the "dutiful, hardworking" Mexicans into the USA? Should we.....build a wall?

We could also stop paying them to sneak in to our country by actually making employers verify IDs and jailing the ones that don't. A lot cheaper than mass detention centers to lock up a few thousand white collar criminal hiring managers.

CBEscapee 10-28-2019 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Rat (Post 21941025)
I would argue that the US harms Mexico in three ways:


2) Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay "rustic" so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize.

That is one of the most rididculous things I think I have ever heard. Maybe you could point out some facts that helped you form your opinion. It would be interesting to see where you came up with that jewel. I was born and have lived all of my life in Guadalajara and I can't even begin to understand how someone could come up with such nonsense.

CBEscapee 10-28-2019 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Rat (Post 21941025)
I would argue that the US harms Mexico in three ways:


2) Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay "rustic" so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize.

That is one of the most rididculous things I think I have ever heard. Maybe you could point out some facts that helped you form your opinion. It would be interesting to see where you came up with that jewel. I was born and have lived all of my life in Guadalajara and I can't even begin to understand how someone could come up with such nonsense.

Nava 10-30-2019 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Rat (Post 219410252)
Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay "rustic" so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize.

Do you also believe that the existence of tourist-oriented tablaos flamencos means Spain will stay "rustic" forever?

Knowed Out 10-30-2019 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Rat (Post 21941025)
2) Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay "rustic" so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize.

I'm pretty sure the beach resorts, archeological sites, historical areas, museums, festivals, ports, and modern entertainment centers draw more money than "rustic" areas. The entire country doesn't live like the Amish. If a community looks "rustic," it's probably because they're broke, not because they're refusing to advance for the sake of tourism.

HurricaneDitka 11-05-2019 11:32 AM

Yesterday a bunch of women and children were murdered in northern Mexico. It appears to have been at the hands of the drug cartels.

source

Balthisar 11-05-2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka (Post 21956250)
Yesterday a bunch of women and children were murdered in northern Mexico. It appears to have been at the hands of the drug cartels.

source

It's been a long time coming for that family. https://www.reddit.com/r/mexico/comm..._war_completo/

Procrustus 11-05-2019 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka (Post 21956250)
Yesterday a bunch of women and children were murdered in northern Mexico. It appears to have been at the hands of the drug cartels.

source

We have mass murder in the U.S. almost every month (or more, it's hard to keep track), but we're not a "failed state."

HurricaneDitka 11-05-2019 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balthisar (Post 21956650)
It's been a long time coming for that family. https://www.reddit.com/r/mexico/comm..._war_completo/

Here are some additional details:

Quote:

On the morning of November 4th, 2019, three mothers in three vehicles, with fourteen children between them, set out from LaMora, a small family community in the mountains of northeastern Sonora. Two of them to see family in Chihuahua, and one of them to pick up her husband from the airport in Phoenix, AZ. They never made it. They were ambushed by the Mexican cartels; shot, burned, and murdered in cold blood. These were innocent civilians, American citizens simply trying to live peaceful lives.

For 11 hours, their families all over Sonora, Chihuahua, and the Midwestern US waited in fear and horror for any news of possible survivors. The first vehicle was found full of bullet holes and completely ablaze. Nita and the four of her seven children she had taken on the trip were burned to mostly ashes and only a few charred bones left to identify that all five had been inside. It appeared that one tried to escape as the front passenger door was open and the remains were partially in and out of the vehicle.

On another part of the road, about 10 miles ahead, were Christina, with her baby Faith in her vehicle, and Dawna with nine children in hers. They both were fired upon from ahead and Christina jumped out waving her arms to let the attackers know that it was women and children in the vehicles. She gave her life to try and save the rest. Dawna and two of her boys were also killed in the gunfire.

After witnessing his mother and brothers being shot dead, Dawna's son Devin hid his 6 other siblings in the bushes and covered them with branches to keep them safe while he went for help. When he took too long to return, his 9 year old sister left the remaining five to try again. Devin arrived in LaMora at 5:30 pm, 6 hours after the ambush, giving the first news anyone had heard of his and Christina's families.

Devin's uncles armed themselves with guns and returned to try and find the hidden children, knowing many of them were injured. They didn't get far before realizing they would be risking death, since there had been continual shooting for hours, all over the mountains near LaMora. The group of men waited a while for reinforcements, and around 7:30, found the hidden children. They found Christina's baby Faith with the vehicle around her riddled with bullet holes. Somehow she had remained untouched, and alive. She was in her car seat, which looked to have been hurriedly placed on the floor of the vehicle by her mother for protection.

The search didn't end there. Mckenzie, the 9 year old who'd gone for help, was missing. Soldiers who'd by then arrived, and the men of LaMora and nearby towns searched for two hours in the dark until they found her around 9:30.

The five of Dawna's children who were injured were picked up by a waiting ambulance and treated at the local hospital until a helicopter sent by Mexican military came to pick them up. Their father David who had by then arrived from Tucson, Arizona, accompanied them to be life flighted to another helicopter waiting at the US border, from there to be transported to Phoenix.

Devin, his brother Jake, and Christina's baby Faith, all uninjured, are now in the care of their aunts and grandmas in LaMora.

We lost 9 today. Right now we are waiting, for the morning, for answers, for justice.

Dead:

Rhonita Maria Miller September 15, 1989, 30 yrs
Howard Jacob Miller, Jr. July 12, 2007, 12 yrs
Krystal Bellaine Miller, September 25, 2009 10 yrs
Titus Alvin Miller, March 13, 2019 - 8 months
Tiana Gricel Miller, March 13, 2019 - 8 months
(twins)
All shot and burned in their vehicle. Only ashes and a few bones remain.

Father/husband is Howard Sr, who was in North Dakota at the time of attack. The three siblings left behind in LaMora being babysat at the Miller grandparents: Tristan, Amaryllis, and Zack.

Dead:

Christina Marie Langford Johnson - November 23, 1987, shot dead, 19 days away from 32 years

Survived:

Faith Marie Johnson April 9, 2019, 7 months old - was found in her car seat that seemed to be put on the floor, by her mother to try and protect her, uninjured,

Dead:

Dawna Ray Langford, June 19, 1976, 43 years
Trevor Harvey Langford April 4, 2008 11 years old,
Rogan Jay Langford, February 17, 2017 2.5 years old
All shot to death

Survived
Kylie Evelyn Langford, March 8 2005, 14 years - shot in the foot

Devin Blake Langford, July 6 2006, 13 years - uninjured, walked approximately 14 miles to LaMora to get help, after hiding his bleeding but living siblings in the bushes, and covering them with branches

Mckenzie Rayne Langford, January 12 2010, - 9 years - grazed on her arm- sent by her sister Kylie for help when Devin didn't return soon enough, got lost, and walked approximately 10 miles, for about 4 hours in the dark before she was found by the search parties

Cody Greyson Langford, October 1 2011, 8 years- shot in the jaw, and the leg, his condition was worrying, but at last word, not critical

Jake Ryder Langford, May 22 2013, 6 - uninjured

Xander Boe Langford, June 4 2015, 4 - shot in the back

Brixon Oliver Langford, February 15th 2019, almost 9 months - shot in the chest, open flesh wound, bullet graze on wrist

If you’d like to donate to these wonderful, hurting families. Here is the link.

<link removed to comply with board rules>

HurricaneDitka 11-05-2019 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Procrustus (Post 21956668)
We have mass murder in the U.S. almost every month (or more, it's hard to keep track), but we're not a "failed state."

I think the difference is that when people shoot up cars full of innocent women and children here, they're generally captured & prosecuted / killed. Mexico has less than half our population and had more than double our # of murders last year. Most of those murders will go unsolved.


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