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Kable 02-14-2013 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enderw24 (Post 16006944)
Well I'm glad we agree.

But the cops in that video put themselves into that situation, were well trained, had the appropriate number of lumens, and still managed to shoot someone accidently.

Compare that to a homeowner who isn't as well trained as the police and have someone (possibly) breaking into their house in the middle of the night. Your advice is that if they could just increase those lumens a bit, a tragedy could have been avoided.

But it didn't work in the link I submitted, did it? Those lumens didn't do crap to save Todd Blair's life.

I think the cops in the video shot too early, you want me to excuse that? The victim was not in the dark. The lights on the cops guns didn't help or hurt. If it had been dark and the person not bent on shooting regardless then a weapon light could most certainly help. You really don't think so? It would have helped in my situation for sure. You guys keep talking about tiny lights, or in your case increasing the lumens "a bit." I'm talking about increasing them a lot, from dark to lit up.

Have you ever handled one of these lights in a dark room. They do a lot.

Kable 02-14-2013 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filmore (Post 16007011)
You'd need to see if the drop in gun suicides were replaced by other methods. If gun suicides went down by 10000 but suicides as a whole didn't go down at all, then you know that all those gun suicides switched to other methods. But if total suicides also go down, then some of those gun suicides were not replaced by other methods.

From the link I gave:

"De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods."

Fear Itself 02-14-2013 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007015)
Have you ever handled one of these lights in a dark room. They do a lot.

They give the bad guy a target to shoot at.

Damuri Ajashi 02-14-2013 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16006931)
Suicides + accidental discharge + intentional discharge.

Suicides count because guns make suicides much more likely to be successful. Fewer guns in homes means fewer successful suicides.

Yeah, I don't count suicides. I understand taht more guns=more successful suicides but that isn't what keeps people are concerned about.

Quote:

Take Population A with guns in the house, compare it to Population B without guns, control for various factors and find out who winds up dead more often. (It's A).
You have a cite for that or are you just assuming that you are right?

filmore 02-14-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007022)
From the link I gave:

"De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods."

It's only the rate which changes. That's just a percentage. If there are 10000 gun suicides and 100 hanging, then a similar 10% rate change means 9000 gun suicides and 110 hanging--a difference of 990. If gun and hanging suicides are the same, then the same rate change would mean that the handgun suicides are switching to hanging. But without knowing the details, it's not clear if all the gun suicides switched to hanging.

(I'm unable to view that [32] link in the wiki page, so I'm not sure what numbers they used).

steronz 02-14-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007022)
From the link I gave:

"De Leo, Dwyer, Firman & Neulinger,[32] studied suicide methods in men from 1979 to 1998 and found a rise in hanging suicides that started slightly before the fall in gun suicides. As hanging suicides rose at about the same rate as gun suicides fell, it is possible that there was some substitution of suicide methods."

The gun ban was in 1996?

Kable 02-14-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16007029)
They give the bad guy a target to shoot at.

That's a criticism, the pro is that in the dark they all but blind the bad guy. Also from the real life video's from you tube it seems a lot of bad guys have knives instead of guns.

Seems odd to me that you gun-grabbers are so against technology with the potential to save innocent lives. I guess that's really not what you are all about.

steronz 02-14-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16007040)
that isn't what keeps people are concerned about.

What? Your posts are very hard to parse sometimes.

Anyway, I certainly count suicides. I'm still in the worst demographic for them, after all. Statistically, I'm way more likely to kill myself than to be killed by a stranger. Why would I ignore that?

Kable 02-14-2013 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16007049)
The gun ban was in 1996?

Read the link.

steronz 02-14-2013 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007074)
Read the link.

I can't, I don't have enough lumens.

Kable 02-14-2013 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16007060)
Anyway, I certainly count suicides. I'm still in the worst demographic for them, after all. Statistically, I'm way more likely to kill myself than to be killed by a stranger. Why would I ignore that?

If you think suicide is bad and think you might do so then maybe you shouldn't get a gun or a rope or belt...

steronz 02-14-2013 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007088)
If you think suicide is bad and think you might do so then maybe you shouldn't get a gun or a rope or belt...

I keep my ropes and belts locked up in my rope and belt safe. Don't you?

Fear Itself 02-14-2013 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007088)
If you think suicide is bad and think you might do so then maybe you shouldn't get a gun or a rope or belt...

If you think intruders are bad, maybe you shouldn't have doors or windows...

Kable 02-14-2013 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16007095)
If you think intruders are bad, maybe you shouldn't have doors or windows...

Like I said:

"Seems odd to me that you gun-grabbers are so against technology with the potential to save innocent lives. I guess that's really not what you are all about."

Dave Hartwick 02-14-2013 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006439)
I'll have to read the paper in full and tell you what I think. I know better than to trust the abstract of a review paper.

I don't think you should bother, as you'd just have to pretend not to be able to understand what it says despite repeated explanations. Or you could just act as if you've never seen that cite before, no matter that you've already been referred to it.

Kable 02-14-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick (Post 16007113)
I don't think you should bother, as you'd just have to pretend not to be able to understand what it says despite repeated explanations. Or you could just act as if you've never seen that cite before, no matter that you've already been referred to it.

Dave I'm not sure why you would say that now. I have a private message from you saying you liked my approach to the Kellerman study you often reference, but only I read.

Dave Hartwick 02-14-2013 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007148)
Dave I'm not sure why you would say that now. I have a private message from you saying you liked my approach to the Kellerman study you often reference, but only I read.

I was impressed-- at first-- with your approach to Kellerman, which appeared to be surprisingly open-minded for someone who is clearly an advocate of sanctioned firearms homicide. That was before you started asking me to explain, repeatedly, things I'd already quoted to you and that were covered, plainly and at some length, within the article. I decided that you were being disingenuous. To be as stupid as you pretended I doubt you could operate a computer or mobile device.

Kable 02-14-2013 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick (Post 16007202)
I was impressed-- at first-- with your approach to Kellerman, which appeared to be surprisingly open-minded for someone who is clearly an advocate of sanctioned firearms homicide. That was before you started asking me to explain, repeatedly, things I'd already quoted to you and that were covered, plainly and at some length, within the article. I decided that you were being disingenuous. To be as stupid as you pretended I doubt you could operate a computer or mobile device.

Stupid? What you mean those questions you admitted in your PM to me that you couldn't answer? Yeah, I thought I would ask them again, to give you the chance to admit IN PUBLIC you couldn't answer them.

Euphonious Polemic 02-14-2013 04:12 PM

This thread is becoming "Stupid gun apologist of the month"

Kable 02-14-2013 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16007248)
This thread is becoming "Stupid gun apologist of the month"

Come on, you can do better than that!:D

Fear Itself 02-14-2013 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007463)
Come on, you can do better than that!:D

We could, but you set the bar so low, we don't have to.

Kable 02-14-2013 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16007503)
We could, but you set the bar so low, we don't have to.

You could? Prove it!:p

Fear Itself 02-14-2013 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16007516)
You could? Prove it!:p

I'll bet you crack yourself up.

carnivorousplant 02-14-2013 08:01 PM

Can we just put Kable and Fear, wearing bathing suits and carrying Louisville sluggers into a small room and see who comes out?

:)

Ca3799 02-14-2013 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16007887)
Can we just put Kable and Fear, wearing bathing suits and carrying Louisville sluggers into a small room and see who comes out?

:)

Covered in Crisco? I'll buy!

carnivorousplant 02-14-2013 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ca3799 (Post 16007913)
Covered in Crisco? I'll buy!

Okay!
Get your tickets here, a trifling five bucks!
Email me for my Paypal account.

elucidator 02-14-2013 09:27 PM

Dear Esteemed Gentleman CarnivorousPlant:

I am having for you a most excellent very good business opportunity! My father, the late financial minister person for the sovereign nation of Bongolongo....

carnivorousplant 02-14-2013 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16008145)
Dear Esteemed Gentleman CarnivorousPlant:

I am having for you a most excellent very good business opportunity! My father, the late financial minister person for the sovereign nation of Bongolongo....

Oh! Do tell!

elucidator 02-14-2013 10:06 PM

Forget it. Checked with PayPal. They asked if I knew where you were hiding.

Fear Itself 02-14-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16007887)
Can we just put Kable and Fear, wearing bathing suits and carrying Louisville sluggers into a small room and see who comes out?

I'll be the one in the Speedo.

gamerunknown 02-15-2013 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16006457)
That's what I've been doing to you guys in reverse. Lots of shooters are lax with gun safety. I think gun safety should be taught in public schools along with sex education.

Great, now both the armed guards and the young males will be covering embarrassing erections.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16006997)
BTW, I think dogs are superior to alarm systems and guns are superior to golf clubs in case a barking dog doesn't do the trick.

Well that's the thing: a golf club wasn't very effective against an armed invader who happened to be there legally. A loaded AR-15 might have been, but we're simultaneously expected to believe that time is of the essence and that keeping a gun unloaded or in a safe would result in slaughter and that a person can identify whether someone is a friendly or not in a matter of milliseconds with the appropriate degree of luminosity. Seems a tad implausible.

Kable 02-15-2013 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamerunknown (Post 16008699)
Great, now both the armed guards and the young males will be covering embarrassing erections.

I figure it has a co-benefit of keeping Christian kids from missing school that day so they can learn about condoms too.

Quote:

that a person can identify whether someone is a friendly or not in a matter of milliseconds with the appropriate degree of luminosity. Seems a tad implausible.
With lights on, how long does it take you to recognize a family member?

elucidator 02-15-2013 07:36 AM

Of coincidental interest:

http://news.yahoo.com/no-guns-home-j...054753875.html

No guns at home, so Japanese shoot 'em up in Guam

The Japanese totally ban handguns and other lethal toys, so tourists go to Guam to shoot guns in a firing range. Tucked into the text, the following factoid:

Quote:

....Because guns are so hard to find, gun-related crime is extremely rare. They were used in only seven murders in Japan a nation of about 130 million people in 2011, the most recent year for official statistics. In the U.S., with 315 million people, there are more than 11,000 gun-related killings annually....

carnivorousplant 02-15-2013 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Itself (Post 16008370)
I'll be the one in the Speedo.

Good, we'll be able to tell you apart.

:)

tagos 02-15-2013 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16008927)
Of coincidental interest:

http://news.yahoo.com/no-guns-home-j...054753875.html

No guns at home, so Japanese shoot 'em up in Guam

The Japanese totally ban handguns and other lethal toys, so tourists go to Guam to shoot guns in a firing range. Tucked into the text, the following factoid:


Quote:

....Because guns are so hard to find, gun-related crime is extremely rare. They were used in only seven murders in Japan a nation of about 130 million people in 2011, the most recent year for official statistics. In the U.S., with 315 million people, there are more than 11,000 gun-related killings annually....
Yea, but I have it on the impeccable authority of many on this forum that their deadly lawn furniture rampages must be through the roof.

Or the Japanese aren't as exceptionally murderous as Americans.

Or something.

Anyway, Luci, back to the more important issue. Why do you hate Freedom?

Kable 02-15-2013 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16008927)
....Because guns are so hard to find, gun-related crime is extremely rare. They were used in only seven murders in Japan a nation of about 130 million people in 2011, the most recent year for official statistics. In the U.S., with 315 million people, there are more than 11,000 gun-related killings annually....

Nah, in Japan they just kill themselves instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide...itting_suicide

elucidator 02-15-2013 10:07 AM

And there I was, saying how Japan is a nearly perfect society, a paragon in every respect. I should have known better, that a sharp cookie like you would catch me. Boy, is my face red!

Hentor the Barbarian 02-15-2013 11:10 AM

Here's the weekly update from DailyKos: GunFail V

Note that he has decided to discontinue the account of domestic murder/suicide since his original intent was to focus on the ways in which responsible gun owners suddenly turn into irresponsible gun owners. There are 50 events in this week's installment.

Euphonious Polemic 02-15-2013 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian (Post 16009855)
Here's the weekly update from DailyKos: GunFail V

Note that he has decided to discontinue the account of domestic murder/suicide since his original intent was to focus on the ways in which responsible gun owners suddenly turn into irresponsible gun owners. There are 50 events in this week's installment.

That is a quality link, my friend.

The amount of stupid exhibited by folks there is astounding. Well, it's not surprising that stupid people have accidents. But the combination of stupid people and guns can lead to some impressive stories.

But that's fine - you see, they were all irresponsible gun owners. Of course, they were responsible gun owners right up until the time the shot themselves or someone else. Of course, it will NEVER, EVER happen to the gun lovers in this thread. Because they're responsible you see.

Right up until they are not.

Damuri Ajashi 02-15-2013 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz (Post 16007060)
What? Your posts are very hard to parse sometimes.

Sorry, Its the combination of fat fingers and the tiny keyboard on my new phone.

Quote:

Anyway, I certainly count suicides. I'm still in the worst demographic for them, after all. Statistically, I'm way more likely to kill myself than to be killed by a stranger. Why would I ignore that?
Then don't get a gun. Noone is forcing you to get a gun, the choice is yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16010107)
But that's fine - you see, they were all irresponsible gun owners. Of course, they were responsible gun owners right up until the time the shot themselves or someone else. Of course, it will NEVER, EVER happen to the gun lovers in this thread. Because they're responsible you see.

Right up until they are not.

Not all gun owners are responsible. Hang out at a gun store for about an hour and it becomes obvious.

That is why I support a licensing requirement. I had to undergo training and take a test to get my CCW. There has been one firearm crime committed by someone with a CCW since 1976. I would bet that CCWs have fewer accidental/negligent discharges than the gun owning population generally, I couldn't provide a cite but it would be consistent with my anecdotal experience.

Kable 02-15-2013 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic (Post 16010107)
The amount of stupid exhibited by folks there is astounding. Well, it's not surprising that stupid people have accidents. But the combination of stupid people and guns can lead to some impressive stories.

You can substitute a whole lot of words for "guns" in your sentence still make sense without anyone asking for a ban. Off the top of my head: skateboards, roller blades, bicycles, motorcycles, skis, snowboards, alcohol, power tools, yet none of those can have the potential to save lives the way guns can.

Quote:

But that's fine - you see, they were all irresponsible gun owners. Of course, they were responsible gun owners right up until the time the shot themselves or someone else.
They all broke basic safety rules. People who break basic gun safety rules are irresponsible gun owners the moment they break them, not the moment an accident happens. Agree or no?

carnivorousplant 02-15-2013 07:38 PM

The Arkansas Legislature will probably pass a bill allowing concealed carry at colleges and universities.

Who in the hell wants to hand a guy a failed final if he is carrying? :)

Kable 02-15-2013 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16011763)
Who in the hell wants to hand a guy a failed final if he is carrying? :)

If a guy intends to shoot his professor do you think he cares if it's a gun free zone?

carnivorousplant 02-15-2013 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16011918)
If a guy intends to shoot his professor do you think he cares if it's a gun free zone?

Might be an impulse thing when he gets a failing grade. :)

Kable 02-15-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16011946)
Might be an impulse thing when he gets a failing grade. :)

Do you usually get your grade right when you hand in your final?

Hentor the Barbarian 02-15-2013 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi (Post 16011613)
That is why I support a licensing requirement. I had to undergo training and take a test to get my CCW. There has been one firearm crime committed by someone with a CCW since 1976. I would bet that CCWs have fewer accidental/negligent discharges than the gun owning population generally, I couldn't provide a cite but it would be consistent with my anecdotal experience.

This is frequently claimed. I was interested then to see the CCWs among this week's gun fails, including theone who brandished her weapon at Chuck E Cheese's.

carnivorousplant 02-15-2013 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kable (Post 16011956)
Do you usually get your grade right when you hand in your final?

No, I'm talking about passing them out afterwards.

So, damn, passing out grades on a regular test.

Touchy, aren't we?

I'm a gun owner, but check the name of the thread. :)

Kable 02-15-2013 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant (Post 16011982)
I'm a gun owner, but check the name of the thread. :)

Cool, but I'm in favor of guns on college campuses. This is what I think of gun free zones:

http://www.wmsa.net/poster.htm

elucidator 02-15-2013 09:50 PM

Is there one specific source for your pre-packaged talking points, or are they drawn for a variety of sources?

Kable 02-15-2013 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elucidator (Post 16012064)
Is there one specific source for your pre-packaged talking points, or are they drawn for a variety of sources?

I try to be eclectic? How about you "liberal democrats R us?"


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