Straight Dope Message Board

Straight Dope Message Board (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/index.php)
-   Cafe Society (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   Avengers: Endgame SEEN IT thread - SPOILERS AHOY! (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=874513)

galen ubal 04-24-2019 04:50 AM

Avengers: Endgame SEEN IT thread - SPOILERS AHOY!
 
First post left mostly blank to avoid mouseover spoiling.

Just one thing - if you're into these movies at all, run don't walk to the theater!

galen ubal 04-24-2019 05:13 AM

Okay, my wife and I saw it this morning, and I'm still tamping it down in my mind. We'll see it again tomorrow afternoon. So this is a little scattershot and stream of consciousness.

First off, you will have to have seen most of the previous MCU films to have any hope of getting what's going on. Marvel is having no pity and making no accomodation for those who haven't.

Three hours went by in a flash - I never felt bored or inclined to look at my watch. It is a truly satisfying end, not only to the Infinity War storyline, but to the character arcs that have been shown in the previous movies. The "core" Avengers - Thor, Cap, Tony, Bruce - get most of the screentime and attention; there's a fair bit of Rocket and Nebula as well. Most of the others get very few lines.
Surprises: Hulk and Banner have come to an accomodation, and are more or less sharing, with Bruce's brain combined with Hulk's body. This was more or less glossed over, in a short scene presenting it as a fait accompli. It's another example of how the MCU is willing and eager to overturn the comic book traditions, along with secret identities and such like.
I was not surprised by Tony dying heroically, especially now that he had a kid. I was surprised that Natasha bought it, after establishing that Clint had been corrupted to a degree by his grief and rage. I thought it was great that Steve got his opportunity for a life, the life he'd always wanted.

I was thrilled when Cap lifted Mjolnir, and amused that Thor seemed equally happy about it. It was just as bad-ass as I'd been hoping.
Speaking of Thor....well, Chris Hemsworth is a masterful comic actor, and his desscent into slobhood was both hysterical and touching. Actually, all of the performances were wonderful. When present-Thor had his talk with his mom, I was both laughing and teary-eyed. Similarly, Tony had his chance to speak with his dad, man-to-man, and lay to rest some of the issues he had.
When all seemed lost at the big battle scene, and all of those gates opened, and all of the people who had been lost to the Snap started pouring in and tearing into Thanos' army - well, that was just another bad-ass moment. The battle scenes were well laid-out, by the way, and pretty easy to follow, despite their massive scale.
Some things that are going to annoy the reactionary types: Steve handing off the shield and title to Sam Wilson, and the final charge with the Infinity Gauntlet toward the quantum truck by just about every female character thus far - and no men. Women saving the day?!?

Still, the important moments were character moments. Whether it be Tony bitterly blaming Steve at the beginning, or their coming together in the middle, or the conversations about loss that intersperse the whole movie - well, that's the heart and soul of the movie, literally.

I'll come back to this later, I'm sure, with more thoughts. This is a dense movie, and I'm a poor communicator at best.

rocking chair 04-24-2019 09:01 AM

I have pacing questions.

when would be the best time to "skip to the loo"?

should one buy a large beverage, how should that be paced? what would be considered the half way mark?

GuanoLad 04-24-2019 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocking chair (Post 21606302)
should one buy a large beverage, how should that be paced? what would be considered the half way mark?

The first half is slower paced, it settles in with the various consequences of the snap. Once Tony returns to the Avengers Building it starts to ramp up with action and comedy you ought not to miss. So somewhere around when Scott Lang is struggling with his taco.

dropzone 04-24-2019 12:35 PM

Spoilers!

1. It starts out with Hawkeye playing a trick on Winchester by putting ketchup on his ham sandwich instead of Grey Poupon.

2. There was an epidemic of upper respiratory disease in China so I heard more coughing than dialog.

3. It was filmed entirely in lo-res shaky cam as if on somebody's phone.

shantih 04-24-2019 12:57 PM

I saw it last night as part of a double feature with Infinity War first and then Endgame right after midnight. Gotta say, I loved it! The pacing of the story was not at all what I was expecting, in a good way. Going after Thanos and taking brutal revenge on him right at the start, and then giving the surviving characters 5 years to let the consequences of his beating them settle in before Scott Lang provided the kick to giving them hope again was not how I thought they were going to handle it. I really enjoyed all the interactions with the past characters like Frigga and the Ancient One and of course Howard Stark. I was curious about how familiar the Ancient One was with Stephen Strange given that he hadn't even started on his path to the mystic arts, or did I miss something there?

Chris Hemsworth is so, so funny. I would love to know how they turned Hardbody Thor into Potbelly Thor. Is it the same tech they used to de-age various actors or what they used with original scrawny Steve Rogers?

I wouldn't have been happy with the story in the end if they had won the day with no price paid. The sacrifices all felt totally justified and appropriate. I'm happy Steve Rogers finally got that dance with Peggy and got to live his life in the right order at last.

But let's talk about the true shocking development in the movie: no end credits scene! When the movie just ... stopped and the lights went all the way up in the theater where I watched it, everyone was stunned at first and then burst out laughing.

MostlyClueless 04-24-2019 05:28 PM

I wonder if they're actually going to give Sam his own Captain American movie.

squeegee 04-25-2019 05:06 AM

I thought it was strange that they made the decision to bring back all the world's missing population in present time, rather than undoing Thanos' work five years before so the 'incident' basically never happened. I thought that doubling the/every world's population instantly was a recipe for world/galaxy-wide famine. No way they can raise enough foodstuffs quickly enough for double the mouths in a short time.

And, hell, how do all these people not appear inside new construction or in front of moving vehicles?

Tabby_Cat 04-25-2019 05:55 AM

I don't know about this movie. It didn't feel like a movie so much as an... epilogue. Like they spent 2 hours going around tying up all of the character's loose ends, and sending them off into the sunset.

Like, I don't feel like I really want to watch any more Marvel movies after this. After the end of Civil War, I wanted to know what happened to the team, things were moving forward etc, and I suppose Guardians + Thor is where they're going next, but nothing about Strange, Marvel, Spiderman even, it didn't feel like they were going anywhere or that a new team was taking over the old team, or anything like that. It just felt like... the end, I guess.

I was also really annoyed about the time travel shenanigans. Particularly since the time stone was right there, and particularly since they actually brought Gamora back - and then she disappears again? Why don't they bring Nat back using the same time travel nonsense rather than using the glove?

Just.. didn't feel this movie.

squeegee 04-25-2019 06:01 AM

Re time travel, agree. I couldn't have rolled my eyes harder when the 'time caper' plot was laid out.

GuanoLad 04-25-2019 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608306)
I thought it was strange that they made the decision to bring back all the world's missing population in present time, rather than undoing Thanos' work five years before so the 'incident' basically never happened.

Because then that would be the answer to every problem they face. They had to lay down a rule that said they cannot change the past without messing up the present. They're not fracturing the timeline like DC does with Flashpoint, they're using the stones to bring everyone back. It works and it's safe, even if in ongoing stories there will be some characters who are five years older than they used to be. e.g. I figure some of Peter Parker's class at school will not be returning.

Kind of a shame that Abby Ryder Fortson won't be back in the next Ant-Man though.

TaoPilot 04-25-2019 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuanoLad (Post 21608496)
I figure some of Peter Parker's class at school will not be returning.

Isn't Far From Home supposed to be set right after Endgame? How will that work? Actually, didn't Peter return to high school at the end of the movie and see Ned there?

Maybe FFH is set before Infinity War and Endgame after all. Wouldn't be the first time filmmakers have lied to keep a secret.

squeegee 04-25-2019 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuanoLad (Post 21608496)
Because then that would be the answer to every problem they face. They had to lay down a rule that said they cannot change the past without messing up the present. They're not fracturing the timeline like DC does with Flashpoint, they're using the stones to bring everyone back. It works and it's safe, even if in ongoing stories there will be some characters who are five years older than they used to be. e.g. I figure some of Peter Parker's class at school will not be returning.

I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers. Before Banner did The Snap, there was some brief strategizing and they agreed to bring back the other half of the world Now, not Then. This seems like a troublesome choice; e.g what happens to folk that were on aircraft when they disappeared? Ocean liners? And how do we feed them all?

And re the writers: it's easy not to fall in the trap of time travel rules that break your universe: don't write stories with time travel.

GuanoLad 04-25-2019 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608877)
I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers.

It amounts to the same thing. But in-universe, they didn't want to wipe out the five years that did happen for those who were left, Tony Stark's daughter being the prime example.

Jack Batty 04-25-2019 09:35 PM

I just got back from seeing it. My take: if someone would have just told me what happens in the first two hours and I would have been pleased as punch to just watch the last hour. I admit, I was very tired going in and I found myself nodding in a few spots - for example, I saw Cap walk into the elevator with all the bad guys (flashback-like) then I kind of drifted and I snapped to to see Cap walking calmly out of the elevator with the case with Loki's scepter in it. I have no idea what happened or what was said in the elevator.

Overall, I thought it was great and I'm glad I saw in a packed theater. The cheers, especially when Captain America started swinging Thor's hammer, made the film.

ebb 04-25-2019 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shantih (Post 21606939)
I was curious about how familiar the Ancient One was with Stephen Strange given that he hadn't even started on his path to the mystic arts, or did I miss something there?

Well, the Ancient One was walking around with the Time Stone around their neck, probably for years if not centuries. It seemed they were pretty adept at looking both backward and forward in time by this point.

RikWriter 04-25-2019 10:36 PM

I just got back.
To address what I thought at first was a continuity gap, the reason Ned Leeds seems to be the same age and is still in HS is he got snapped too. One has to assume a lot of Peter's "gang" did.
Another thing, I don't think Hulk JUST brought back everyone, I think he brought back all the infrastructure too.
As for the movie...

Oh.
My.
GOD.

That was the most incredible spectacle ever put to film. I can't imagine how they'll ever top this.
It basically gave me everything I wanted out of the movie. I have nothing at all to complain about.

Equipoise 04-26-2019 01:21 AM

I did the 22-movie marathon at AMC and seeing Endgame with a full theater of people I'd just spent 3 days with was amazing. I want to see it again because there's much to process but I have a lot of sleep to catch up on.

Biggest delightful surprise for me: that it was Carol Danvers who rescues Tony Stark and Nebula. Biggest sad surprise: Natasha committing suicide to save Clint. (Tony Stark dying wasn't a surprise. I hadn't been spoiled, but we knew that either Cap or Tony or both would die).

Eyebrows 0f Doom 04-26-2019 02:13 AM

I just got back from seeing it in IMAX and I loved it! I was truly surprised with Thanos being dispatched so quickly and the the 5 year jump. Seeing this in a packed theater added to the enjoyment, lots of cheers and clapping, the most was probably when Cap picked up Mjolnir!

I was surprised at how much of the movie was very quiet and introspective, almost like a straight drama. It was quite a ways into it before there really was any big action scene. It really did feel like an ending, especially with the montage during the credits and then, shocker! No after credits scene!

asterion 04-26-2019 03:07 AM

I spent an hour trying to figure out what I missed. The space stone's on Earth as is the time stone. The reality stone is on Asgard, the power stone on whatever the opening of GotG was, and the soul stone is on the someone has to die planet. So who and where, I wondered, picked up the mind stone? That's what I get for forgetting why they needed the scepter (and generally trying to forget I ever watched Age of Ultron). Somebody please tell me I wasn't the only one.

Alessan 04-26-2019 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Batty (Post 21610072)
I just got back from seeing it. My take: if someone would have just told me what happens in the first two hours and I would have been pleased as punch to just watch the last hour. I admit, I was very tired going in and I found myself nodding in a few spots - for example, I saw Cap walk into the elevator with all the bad guys (flashback-like) then I kind of drifted and I snapped to to see Cap walking calmly out of the elevator with the case with Loki's scepter in it. I have no idea what happened or what was said in the elevator.

He tried to convince Sitwell, Rumlow and the other goons that the Director (Robert Redford) wanted him to take the scepter. They started looking at him suspiciously, and for a second it looked like we were about to have a replay of the Winter Soldier elevator fight... and then Steve just leaned forward and whispered "Hail Hydra" into Stillwell's ear. He nodded and handed him the scepter. It was hilarious.

(I think it was also a mocking reference to a recent highly controversial comic series, in which it turned out that Cap had been working for Hydra all along).

ricksummon 04-26-2019 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608877)
I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers. Before Banner did The Snap, there was some brief strategizing and they agreed to bring back the other half of the world Now, not Then. This seems like a troublesome choice; e.g what happens to folk that were on aircraft when they disappeared? Ocean liners? And how do we feed them all?

Simple; unlike Thanos, Bruce's Snap also doubled the resources! :D

ebb 04-26-2019 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeegee (Post 21608877)
I meant 'they' meaning the characters, not the writers. Before Banner did The Snap, there was some brief strategizing and they agreed to bring back the other half of the world Now, not Then. This seems like a troublesome choice; e.g what happens to folk that were on aircraft when they disappeared? Ocean liners? And how do we feed them all?

And re the writers: it's easy not to fall in the trap of time travel rules that break your universe: don't write stories with time travel.

There's obviously a certain amount of movie magic going on here. But given the setup of the Stones and the Snap there really has to be. It's not as if Thanos made quadrillions of individual decisions about who lived and died, whether planes landed safely, how many bacteria were affected, etc. He just had an overall intent and the magic carried it out, and he didn't care about the repercussions. I think it's reasonable to assume the magic works the same way for Banner, only his intent is nobler, and he does care that people are preserved. So I'm fine believing that the genie of the stones carried out his wish in a way that didn't end up with people phasing into solid stone or appearing in front of moving cars or what have you.

For dramatic purposes there has to be some lingering effect from the events of all of these movies. Having half the world's population missing five years while the other half has five years of grief and rebuilding on their record seems like a nice world-spanning consequence that can be brought in as needed, but also more or less ignored if a particular upcoming movie doesn't need that ingredient. I vastly prefer it to some global reset where we rewind back to the moment of Thanos' snap and for some reason only the core Avengers remember that anything happened at all. That would feel much more like a cop-out.

As far as the time travel aspects, I think they actually did a great job of setting up a fun movie-believable set of time travel rules and then coloring inside the lines, for the most part. You can't go back in time and change things in order to change your present reality. All they could do is sneak back, borrow the stones for an instant, and then sneak back and replace them so that those other realities don't end up changed for the worse. The time travel seemed to require a return to the original destination, unless you choose to make it a one-way journey, like Cap did at the end. I thought that was a great set of rules to set up some neat nostalgia scenes and inserts into previous movies without making everything too hard or too easy dramatically.

I'm hazy on two parts, though. I'm not sure that they don't work within these rules, but would need to think about it.
1) When Cap and Iron Man decide to improvise after losing the cube, they "sideways" jump back to Howard Stark's lab. I'm not sure how they did that on the fly without returning to the big time jump machine. Maybe we just write this off to Tony Stark doing super-science when he needs to.
2) When Evil Nebula uses the time platform to pull Thanos and his ship to the present from the past it seems like it's bending the rules in order to set up the final confrontation. There might be a good explanation there but it didn't occur to me on first watching.

Alessan 04-26-2019 10:06 AM

I just assume that a whole buttload of alternate dimensions were created and leave it at that.

RikWriter 04-26-2019 10:31 AM

I don't know how the hell Agents of SHIELD season 6 is going to work.

Czarcasm 04-26-2019 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocking chair (Post 21606302)
I have pacing questions.

when would be the best time to "skip to the loo"?

Depends.

Czarcasm 04-26-2019 11:27 AM

Richard Roeper tweeted as to when the best time to hit the bathroom was:
Quote:

When to take pee breaks when you attend “Avengers: Endgame”:

1. Five minutes before the movie begins.

2. Immediately after the movie ends.

You’re welcome.

AK84 04-26-2019 01:34 PM

My cinema has a policy of playing music on the PA system.
The song they played after the end?
Seasons in the sun.
Bastards!

AK84 04-26-2019 01:36 PM

I wonder if the question of the identity of Peggy’s husband is now solved. The MCU has avoided answering that question. So if it was Thawed!Cap, then that makes sense.

ETA : Sad that the star of Avengers and our distinguished poster, Elendil’s Heir did not return. Pretty much everyone else did! :D

bienville 04-26-2019 02:32 PM

Jarvis!!! Motherfucking Edwin Jarvis!!!

BEST.
CALLBACK.
EVER.

ebb 04-26-2019 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RikWriter (Post 21610743)
I don't know how the hell Agents of SHIELD season 6 is going to work.

I thought all of the references to the Peggy Carter series in Endgame were great, but was wondering why there wasn't at least a nod in the direction of Agents of SHIELD in the movie, unless I missed it. It could be that they're going to leverage the events of the movie to finally just say "screw it, they're off in their own continuity" and let them play for the rest of the show's run. It would free them from having to constantly come up with reasons why more capable heroes aren't getting called in to deal with world-shattering problems.

Jonathan Chance 04-26-2019 03:39 PM

Called it! I so desperately wanted Cap to go back and marry Peggy I bet my assistant a day off! I win!

Some great moments, here. Cap and Mjolnir, all the women calling back to Infinity War "She's not alone" and the black heroes making their entrance. Loads to cheer for, there.

Also, Loki's alive. He's got the stone back in 2012 and another opportunity to cause trouble - or have fun, depending on one's point of view - so watch out world!

bienville 04-26-2019 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21611268)
Loki's alive. He's got the stone back in 2012 and another opportunity to cause trouble - or have fun, depending on one's point of view - so watch out world!

He was transported to the Premium Streaming Content Realm.

Jonathan Chance 04-26-2019 04:20 PM

Oooo...

And where's Mjolnir? Cap went into the past with it.

RikWriter 04-26-2019 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21611350)
Oooo...

And where's Mjolnir? Cap went into the past with it.

He dropped it back in 2013 so Thor could have it.

Half Man Half Wit 04-26-2019 05:16 PM

I thought that was exceptionally well done. Truly a satisfying conclusion. Two things I liked most where that they avoided introducing some new and improved even bigger Big Bad, and that they didn't just hit the reset button. Oh, and that Dr Strange's seeing the future and surrendering the time stone to Thanos actually paid off. (And by the way, did he tell Stark they were going to win? Because surely, that it doesn't happen if he does only matters if they're in fact going to win...)

But I thought Captain Marvel was curiously underused. I had been thinking that she would be absolutely critical for defeating Thanos, but all she did was tank the ship in the end. Which, don't get me wrong, nice going, but it seems that could've been accomplished in other ways.

Oh, and I can finally say I have the physique of a norse God! :D

Jack Batty 04-26-2019 06:16 PM

I'd say this is definitely a multi-viewer. The final battle alone qualifies it. I don't think I'll be able to wait until it comes to Netflix in two years, so I may have to return to the theater. Maybe I'll catch it in 3D this time.

dasmoocher 04-26-2019 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocking chair (Post 21606302)
I have pacing questions.

when would be the best time to "skip to the loo"?

should one buy a large beverage, how should that be paced? what would be considered the half way mark?

When to take a bathroom pee break during Avengers: Endgame

Calatin 04-26-2019 07:51 PM

My favorite observation yet has been what the interaction must've been like when Cap went back to replace the Soul Stone.

Calatin 04-26-2019 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmoocher (Post 21611564)

After seeing it, the best moment would be just a little after the halfway mark when (tagged, but still gonna be vague)...

SPOILER:
Hawkeye wakes up in a puddle.


You'll have a good 4-5 minutes of inconsequential events.

XT 04-26-2019 08:30 PM

Saw it last night. Overall, I liked it. No surprise there, I went in wanting to like it, and for the most part it delivered. Lots of sad moments throughout, some good nods to the fans. The whole fat Thor arc I could have missed, and if you need to pee at some point, I highly recommend doing so whenever Thor is on screen. It was just lame. I was disappointed that Captain Marvel wasn't in the film more...it was kind of weird when she shows up then rolls back out, going off to save other planets because they don't have a few dysfunctional and obviously PTSD Avengers about.

My suspension of disbelief was nearly shattered (and mind, this is after the whole time travel thingy) when they brought everyone back after 5 years of everyone being gone (I presume they brought all the plants and animals back too) and the world just worked. I mean...huh?

But, it was still a really good movie. I laughed. I cried. I was drawn in. There were lame parts, and it was freaking long, but overall...I give it an 8 out of 10 and it's a good ending of this arc of the franchise. Hope they have some good plans for the future movies.

steronz 04-26-2019 09:39 PM

Saw it, loved it. It's an incredible achievement of storytelling over 22 movies.

Things I loved:
- Thanos dying in the first 15 minutes
- The team structure of trying to secure all of the stones
- The character send offs all felt earned
- In general characters didn't seem superfluous
- Cap and Mjolnor
- Characters getting closure in the past

Obligatory gripes:
- Rules about who's powerful enough to wield a stone are flexible
- Thanos is as tough as he needs to be for the scene, whatever that may be
- Tertiary characters showing up for the main battle. At some point people without superpowers should just be replaced with army infantry, right?
- This time travel is far too easy. All future movies will just be like, let's get some Pym juice and fix this
- Capt Marvel wasn't necessary and can fly through all the ships but can't punch Thanos. They went too far with her powers too soon and clearly didn't know what to do with them

Still, I felt very satisfied walking out of the theater. Well done, Marvel

Jonathan Chance 04-26-2019 10:10 PM

New Asgard is on the coast of Scotland? Dear Lord, we're gonna cross Asgardians with Scots. What's THAT going to bring?

Mahaloth 04-26-2019 11:01 PM

Wow.

Yeah, so that was absolutely amazing and is the first time in a long time that I thought, "Wow, this is a classic movie," right while I'm seeing it. Great movie.

Pairing this with Infinity War makes for an absolutely amazing superhero saga.

10/10

They actually delivered. Studios can make great movies sometimes.

Mahaloth 04-26-2019 11:05 PM

Is below the right analysis of the ending?

Dead: Tony Stark, Black Widow, Gamora(original version), Loki, many bad guys(Thanos included)

Retired: Steve Rogers

Alive: Everyone else

Am I right about Gamora? What else did I forget?

XT 04-26-2019 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21611935)
Is below the right analysis of the ending?

Dead: Tony Stark, Black Widow, Gamora(original version), Loki, many bad guys(Thanos included)

Retired: Steve Rogers

Alive: Everyone else

Am I right about Gamora? What else did I forget?

Yeah, the Infinity War timeline Gamora is dead. The Gamora that is alive today is one from the first Avenger movie timeline, so before the original Guardian's movie. That was an interesting choice. They didn't really mention Loki, so I suppose it's vaguely possible he's still alive, though all those theories about him being the Hulk are obviously busted. :p

Darth Sensitive 04-26-2019 11:27 PM

Vision is permadead too.

And there's an alternate timeline Loki out there with a tesseract that's just perfect for a streaming series.

RikWriter 04-26-2019 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21611873)
New Asgard is on the coast of Scotland? Dear Lord, we're gonna cross Asgardians with Scots. What's THAT going to bring?

I thought it was in Norway.

AK84 04-27-2019 12:30 AM

They have pym particles. So prime age Rogers can be recalled if and when needed.
Tony is gone.
Vision was a product of the stone, gone
Nat is alien microbe food.
Gamora is gone too, for all intents and purposes.
Quite a small body count in retrospect.

iiandyiiii 04-27-2019 01:17 AM

Loved it! Really, really wild, but very satisfying. I'll have more thoughts in the morning.

MaxTheVool 04-27-2019 01:28 AM

Overall, enjoyed it a lot, satisfying conclusion.

Things I liked:
-Time travel heist
-Elegaic beginning
-Acting and humor (as usual)
-Satisfying overall arcs, many of them years in the making
-Clint-and-Nat having the most backwards-motivated cliff edge fight ever. Hilarious yet also super touching.

Things I didn't like:
-Women-team-up scene. Granted, as a man, I risk coming off like one of those guys who hated the new Ghostbusters remake. And I don't think it's that at all. I just didn't make any sense at all. How did all those women gather in the middle of an enormous battle at the same moment? Why wouldn't any male heroes help? I'm very curious to hear what women viewers an fans thought of the scene.
-Comically variable power level for various characters, particularly Thanos and Captain Marvel. So she can fly all the way through a spaceship, but still loses to him in a punching match? And Thanos is always just strong enough to barely beat whoever he's fighting, no matter who it is?
-Big battle scene at the end was fun, but even more of an overstuffed mess than normal. Particularly lots of the stuff with Cap and Thor and hammer and axe and shield, I just couldn't keep track of what was happening. Also it took me forever to realize that the female Iron Man was Pepper. Also, literally no important character was injured in the massive war? Seems like a few of the c-listers (bucky or valkyrie or wasp or something) could have died to make it all feel more real and add stakes.
-How did Tony steal all 6 stones, and how did he use them? I would have loved to find out that Dr. Strange had told him "hey, when you build an infinity gauntlet, make sure to add in a little nanotech back door that lets you steal all the functionality onto your glove" or something. But without that, it just seems a bit out of nowhere that he was able to first pull of some insane pickpocketing and then use them without any prep.
-Related, I felt like there wasn't much payoff for the whole business with Stark and Strange and one chance in 14 million from the previous movie. So... what would have happened if Strange hadn't given up the time stone. Still no snap, right?


Random questions:
-Does anyone remember what happened to Cap's original vibranium shield? Is it either the one that got shredded while fighting Thanos or the one he gives to Sam at the end?
-I'm skeptical of Sam as the new Cap. The character is fine, but has never struck me as sufficiently compelling to really anchor a franchise. But, Marvel has surprised me before, so...
-Interesting that two of the characters who we thought were DEFINITELY dead after Infinity War (Loki and Gamora) are, in some sense, "back".
-So I guess a Black Widow standalone movie will have to be a prequel now?
-Not sure how I feel about lack of a post-credits scene. On the one hand, I like the symbolism of "this is the end of a story, we have nothing left to tease". On the other hand, they had to know that everyone is hanging around, bladders full, waiting, and will feel a bit let down. They easily could have had something simple and sweet and epilogue-ish. Maybe Cap and Peggy dancing could have been post-credits?
-At Tony's funeral, as the camera panned over everyone, near the back of the crowd was a young (teenage?) man with puffy white hair. Who was that? Someone I should have recognized?
-I'll have to watch on Netflix or the equivalent at some point with subtitles on, I felt like there were a fair number of jokes that I missed due to crowd noise and muffled dialog.

magnusblitz 04-27-2019 01:59 AM

I liked it, but less than Infinity War. Whereas that one felt very well plotted and paced, this one a bit less so. But it definitely had a lot of great moments - even if some were arguably a bit too fan-wanky, it's also the culmination of 20+ movies so I think it gets some extra leeway in that regard. I admittedly teared up during Tony's funeral. Really the end of an era.

Killing off Thanos and doing a 'time heist' (we knew time travel would be involved, but didn't expect this way!) were surprises. But I also think it undermined things a wee bit... I didn't feel like 2014 Thanos had the same emotional heft to him, and he just felt like a generic big bad in this one. Part of me wonders what it would've been to see a movie where Thanos was left alive at the beginning, maybe focus on the repercussions more, maybe even have people wondered if Thanos was right or not. Heck you could even have Thanos himself change his mind at the end. I dunno. As awesome as the 'everyone comes back' scene was, I think I've seen enough giant army battles in superhero movies to tide me over for a long while.

I was definitely surprised by how little Captain Marvel was involved in the movie. It almost felt to me like the script was done before and then the higher-ups said "hey we're gonna do a Captain Marvel movie before Endgame, fit her in."

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool (Post 21612047)
-Women-team-up scene. Granted, as a man, I risk coming off like one of those guys who hated the new Ghostbusters remake. And I don't think it's that at all. I just didn't make any sense at all. How did all those women gather in the middle of an enormous battle at the same moment? Why wouldn't any male heroes help? I'm very curious to hear what women viewers an fans thought of the scene.

Yeah, I'm always hesitant to comment on stuff like this because I fear coming off as a misogynist (or invite the inevitable "it's not for you!", but I thought that scene was eye-rolling. As you said, it didn't make sense in terms of the battle (as they'd likely all be off with their own groups). Felt like pandering to me.

Quote:

I'm skeptical of Sam as the new Cap. The character is fine, but has never struck me as sufficiently compelling to really anchor a franchise.
Kinda saw it coming because it happened in the comics, but Falcon is much more an established character and it worked quite well. Here, I agree, MCU Falcon is kinda forgettable. I think they really needed one more Avengers movie after Age of Ultron and before Civil War to give Falcon, Scarlet Witch and Vision time to shine.

Quote:

-At Tony's funeral, as the camera panned over everyone, near the back of the crowd was a young (teenage?) man with puffy white hair. Who was that? Someone I should have recognized?
Assuming we're thinking of the same person, it's the kid from Iron Man 3.

Sunny Daze 04-27-2019 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Sensitive (Post 21611955)
Vision is permadead too.

And there's an alternate timeline Loki out there with a tesseract that's just perfect for a streaming series.

How did they get the tesseract back from escaped Loki? He poofed off and I didn't see how they got the stone once that happened.

I think we'll see Vision and Loki again. Heck - I think we'll see them all. We get Gamora back through shenanigans. No reason more shenanigans can't come into play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool (Post 21612047)
Things I didn't like:
-Women-team-up scene. Granted, as a man, I risk coming off like one of those guys who hated the new Ghostbusters remake. And I don't think it's that at all. I just didn't make any sense at all. How did all those women gather in the middle of an enormous battle at the same moment? Why wouldn't any male heroes help? I'm very curious to hear what women viewers an fans thought of the scene.

I read some of the criticisms of this moment before I saw the movie and took it as whining. Once I saw it though, I have to agree. It felt forced. Having strong women in the fight was enough of a statement.

Pork Rind 04-27-2019 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunny Daze (Post 21612077)
How did they get the tesseract back from escaped Loki? He poofed off and I didn't see how they got the stone once that happened.

That's when they decided to use their remaining 'return' particle to go even farther back, this time to the 70's. They got the tesseract and more Pym particles all at once.

Omniscient 04-27-2019 04:53 AM

Just got back from a late showing. Still processing and I definitely have some mixed feelings on it. My one impression that I formed during act two...this was basically the Seinfeld Finale in capes and tights.

Broadly speaking I think Marvel is doing a little too much fan service and they are overdoing it with the silly jokiness of these movies. But that said, I still had fun and there were some terrific moments. I don’t think this will be in my top 5 of MCU films, maybe not top 10. IW was certainly a better movie in most regards.

Will probably be back with more specific thoughts after I get a nights sleep.

AK84 04-27-2019 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool (Post 21612047)
Overall, enjoyed it a lot, satisfying conclusion.

Things I liked:
-Time travel heist
-Elegaic beginning
-Acting and humor (as usual)
-Satisfying overall arcs, many of them years in the making
-Clint-and-Nat having the most backwards-motivated cliff edge fight ever. Hilarious yet also super touching.

+1
Absense of brooding Cap. It worked well in Winter Soldier. Not elsewhere.


Quote:

Things I didn't like:
-Women-team-up scene. Granted, as a man, I risk coming off like one of those guys who hated the new Ghostbusters remake.
Hating the new Ghostbusters film is what normal well adjusted people do. It sucked and despite having a steller cast. An accomplishment on it own

Quote:

And I don't think it's that at all. I just didn't make any sense at all. How did all those women gather in the middle of an enormous battle at the same moment? Why wouldn't any male heroes help? I'm very curious to hear what women viewers an fans thought of the scene.
It was gratuitious. And clearly pandering. Don't get me wrong, I like most of the characters, but that was telegraphed and forced wokeness.

Quote:

-Comically variable power level for various characters, particularly Thanos and Captain Marvel. So she can fly all the way through a spaceship, but still loses to him in a punching match? And Thanos is always just strong enough to barely beat whoever he's fighting, no matter who it is?
I think the issue was that the first punch, Danvers was expecting and braced herself. She did not see the second punch, and how more power there was.

Quote:

-Big battle scene at the end was fun, but even more of an overstuffed mess than normal. Particularly lots of the stuff with Cap and Thor and hammer and axe and shield, I just couldn't keep track of what was happening. Also it took me forever to realize that the female Iron Man was Pepper. Also, literally no important character was injured in the massive war? Seems like a few of the c-listers (bucky or valkyrie or wasp or something) could have died to make it all feel more real and add stakes.
Agreed about being difficult to follow. But the three main Avengers fights with Thanos were quite clear. Wish some second line characters had bought it though.

Quote:

-How did Tony steal all 6 stones, and how did he use them? I would have loved to find out that Dr. Strange had told him "hey, when you build an infinity gauntlet, make sure to add in a little nanotech back door that lets you steal all the functionality onto your glove" or something. But without that, it just seems a bit out of nowhere that he was able to first pull of some insane pickpocketing and then use them without any prep.
Tony made the second guantlet, the one Bruce used for the unsnappening. Stands to reason he made a second one and or transferred some of its tech to his standard glove. He was seen trying to remove the gauntlet from Thanos. We saw the stones are just set in it, nothingelse is holding them in, besides gravity and friction. No doubt Tony's version had the slots come in with their own magnetism, which he triggered.

Quote:

-Related, I felt like there wasn't much payoff for the whole business with Stark and Strange and one chance in 14 million from the previous movie. So... what would have happened if Strange hadn't given up the time stone. Still no snap, right?
From what I understood, Sherlock no 1 did not see just one senario where they "won", he saw millions until they won one. Guessing he realised that keeping the stones away from Thanos would be irrelevant. Remember during the battle, he is hokding back a tidal wave and suddenly a look of realization comes into his head, and he signals to Sherlock No 2 that **this is the timeline he was talking about**.

Quote:

Random questions:
-Does anyone remember what happened to Cap's original vibranium shield? Is it either the one that got shredded while fighting Thanos or the one he gives to Sam at the end?
Neither. That shield was damaged in his defeat of Tony in Civil War.

Quote:

-I'm skeptical of Sam as the new Cap. The character is fine, but has never struck me as sufficiently compelling to really anchor a franchise. But, Marvel has surprised me before, so...
He is getting the shield and the responsibillity. Not the actual title. They had the pym particles, the quantum generator. If they really need Cap back, they can just go and get him from 1948.

Quote:

-Interesting that two of the characters who we thought were DEFINITELY dead after Infinity War (Loki and Gamora) are, in some sense, "back".
Yup.

Quote:

-So I guess a Black Widow standalone movie will have to be a prequel now?
Or cancelled, hopefully.

Quote:

-Not sure how I feel about lack of a post-credits scene. On the one hand, I like the symbolism of "this is the end of a story, we have nothing left to tease". On the other hand, they had to know that everyone is hanging around, bladders full, waiting, and will feel a bit let down. They easily could have had something simple and sweet and epilogue-ish. Maybe Cap and Peggy dancing could have been post-credits?
No problem. Most films, as the credit rolls, sees people typing "does xyz have a post credits scene"into their smartphones anyway.

Quote:

-At Tony's funeral, as the camera panned over everyone, near the back of the crowd was a young (teenage?) man with puffy white hair. Who was that? Someone I should have recognized?
Kid from IronMan3 was there. The only one with puffy white hair were Dr and Mrs Pym. Cannot recall any young man with that description.

Quote:

-I'll have to watch on Netflix or the equivalent at some point with subtitles on, I felt like there were a fair number of jokes that I missed due to crowd noise and muffled dialog.
Marvel films are always best in rewatch.

GuanoLad 04-27-2019 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21612157)
It was gratuitious. And clearly pandering.

No more than a hundred other moments in the rest of the MCU movies. I liked it, I didn't care if it was forced or over-the-top. It's a comic book film, it's what they do.

Jack Batty 04-27-2019 07:22 AM

I couldn't disagree more with those poo-poo-ing the all women fighting force coming together bit.

Pandering? I don't go that far. Giving the audience what it wants is more like it; call that pandering if you must. Listen, in this day and age its a well put thoughtful message, not just for young women, but for everyone and when it occurred in the movie, I recognized it immediately for what it was and smiled broadly. I loved it. As for why would they all happen to come together in the middle of a gigantic, epic battle? Comic books, that's why. This movie featured Quantum zones, time travel, aliens, Norse gods, talking raccoons and trees, and about a million other impossible things so I can look past a little logistical issue as it relates to unit cohesion.

The Other Waldo Pepper 04-27-2019 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool
-Related, I felt like there wasn't much payoff for the whole business with Stark and Strange and one chance in 14 million from the previous movie. So... what would have happened if Strange hadn't given up the time stone. Still no snap, right?

My headcanon — which I admit I can’t back up, except to say that AFAICT it fits, and that I can’t readily come up with anything else — is, well, remember Doc’s best trick from his own movie? You know, the bit where he said he’d come to bargain, and Dormammu killed him, and time looped back to Doc saying he’d come to bargain, and then an iffy Dormammu killed him again, and then time looped back around, and then a genuinely-freaked-out Dormammu asked for exposition before killing Doc over and over and over before giving up his plans to conquer Earth? Since it’s better to rule over his own realm than keep doing this until Doc’s willpower gives out, Dormammu’s willpower gave out first?

But suppose that Thanos is never going to give up; that, in every scanned future, his willpower is unrelenting. So suppose, too, that Doc had the ‘looping’ defense up in INFINITY WAR (because, well, why wouldn’t he?), which would explain why Doc is so breezily confident that Ebony Maw won’t get the Stone off him (since Doc says Maw flatly can’t break the spell on it, and Maw says he can always just take the Stone off Doc’s dead body, and then that just sort of — doesn’t happen). But while Doc’s will maybe dwarfs Maw’s, there’s ultimately no chance of outlasting Thanos.

That’s a lot of supposing, but plug it all in and see if it works.

Banquet Bear 04-27-2019 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuanoLad (Post 21612170)
No more than a hundred other moments in the rest of the MCU movies. I liked it, I didn't care if it was forced or over-the-top. It's a comic book film, it's what they do.

...yep. No more forced than this scene. Look! Nearly all men! Pandering!

Its taken this long for there even to be enough women heroes to be able to have that many heroes onscreen a the same time. If you are asking the question "why are all the female heroes in one place at one time" did you happen to notice in how many Marvel movies the team-ups were almost exclusively men? That scene got a big "hell yeah!" out of me.

FlikTheBlue 04-27-2019 08:24 AM

I loved it, it was an excellent way to end the story arc. The few criticisms I have were already mentioned. I thought that there wasn’t enough Captain Marvel. From what we had already seen, she should have been able to wipe the floor with Thanos. I do have a few questions, one of which only came up after reading this thread.

I don’t remember an all women scene with the gauntlet being carried to Ant Man’s van. I thought that Black Panther and Spiderman participated in that part as well.

Did Cap travel back through time, essentially waiting the 70 years or so until he caught up with the timeline, or did he spend maybe 50 years or so in an alternate timeline and then time travel back the last 20 years or so?

What happened to Gamora from the alternate timeline? Did she stay in the new timeline or disappear?

Jonathan Chance 04-27-2019 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RikWriter (Post 21611977)
I thought it was in Norway.

IMDB says it's on the coast of Scotland.

brossa 04-27-2019 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21612240)
IMDB says it's on the coast of Scotland.

The place where it was filmed may have been Scotland, but the road sign as Hulk and Rocket drive into New Asgard says "Velkommen til Tønsberg". Tønsberg is an actual city, purportedly the oldest in Norway. The real Tønsberg is bigger than the fishing village seen in the movie, though.

Folacin 04-27-2019 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue (Post 21612233)
What happened to Gamora from the alternate timeline? Did she stay in the new timeline or disappear?

Unclear because not shown. Depends on how Tony did his snap/wish: if "dust everyone who came with Thanos", she's gone. If "dust all of Thanos' allies", she could be OK.

But I wonder if they were dusted (which is of course what they showed) or somehow put back in their timeline? I realize all time travel is impossible to make consistent, but if that was the Thanos from the main MCU timeline, then he's gone and unable to do the original snap and paradox.

So I guess what this likely means is at least one timeline was saved from having Thanos snap away half of all life.

brossa 04-27-2019 08:59 AM

(missed edit window) The scenes were filmed in St. Abbs, Scotland.

Sam Lowry 04-27-2019 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper (Post 21612202)
My headcanon — which I admit I can’t back up, except to say that AFAICT it fits, and that I can’t readily come up with anything else — is, well, remember Doc’s best trick from his own movie? You know, the bit where he said he’d come to bargain, and Dormammu killed him, and time looped back to Doc saying he’d come to bargain, and then an iffy Dormammu killed him again, and then time looped back around, and then a genuinely-freaked-out Dormammu asked for exposition before killing Doc over and over and over before giving up his plans to conquer Earth? Since it’s better to rule over his own realm than keep doing this until Doc’s willpower gives out, Dormammu’s willpower gave out first?

But suppose that Thanos is never going to give up; that, in every scanned future, his willpower is unrelenting. So suppose, too, that Doc had the ‘looping’ defense up in INFINITY WAR (because, well, why wouldn’t he?), which would explain why Doc is so breezily confident that Ebony Maw won’t get the Stone off him (since Doc says Maw flatly can’t break the spell on it, and Maw says he can always just take the Stone off Doc’s dead body, and then that just sort of — doesn’t happen). But while Doc’s will maybe dwarfs Maw’s, there’s ultimately no chance of outlasting Thanos.

That’s a lot of supposing, but plug it all in and see if it works.

That's basically what I figured. That Doctor Strange saw 14 million ways this could go (or whatever he said in Infinity War) and that Thanos wins in all but one, and in the won where he loses he gets the stones, does the snap, but then is defeated when Tony sacrifices himself. But obviously no one would like to hear that at the time in Infinity War, and also he knows if he tells Tony he has to sacrifice himself then it would mess things up. The nods Tony and Strange do at some point in the battle is so Strange can tell Tony that this is the winning timeline so far.

I am very curious to see how things go in the MCU after this. The Spider-man movie will have to address it, since half of Peter's old classmates will be now 5 years older than him, and there would have to be a lot of other repercussions out in the world. But the MCU only had the repercussions of aliens invading and demolishing a big chunk of New York affect movies to a certain extent, so I'll be okay if they don't go super deep into the results of the reversal of the snapture, they just need to address it to some extent.

AK84 04-27-2019 10:40 AM

Peters surviving classmates will be long graduated by then.

Czarcasm 04-27-2019 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance (Post 21611873)
New Asgard is on the coast of Scotland? Dear Lord, we're gonna cross Asgardians with Scots. What's THAT going to bring?

12 year old single barrel Scotch mead.

bienville 04-27-2019 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21612157)
Marvel films are always best in rewatch.

Ummm... yeah, because on a rewatch you catch things like:
HULK EATING A PINT OF BEN & JERRY'S HULKA-HULKA BURNING FUDGE!!!!!!!!!!!


I did go in wanting more Captain Marvel and can't say I'm not a little disappointed that there wasn't more of her but... seeing how the story of this film functions as a wrapping up of the overall story we've been watching the familiar characters arc through for years, I think that it was a better choice to have her gone for most of the movie and to allow the big hero moments to go to the characters we're saying goodbye to.

I do think her fights with Thanos were the worst kind of "variable powers depending on what the plot needs". One thing I'll pay attention to on my third viewing: Thanos' use of his weapon in his fights with Carol.

Thanos has that airplane propeller-looking weapon that he uses. This is, I believe, the first time we've seen it. He really didn't need any other weapon in Infinity War because at the start of the film he already has the Gauntlet AND the Power Stone (and very soon has the Space Stone as well).

His airplane propeller weapon is clearly a very powerful weapon, perhaps even imbued with some comic book "space magic". Even if it's not a "magic" weapon, it is still a very powerful weapon that he is extremely skilled at using. When I watch it again, I'll pay more attention to how much trouble he's giving Carol specifically through the use of his weapon.

(Of course, if the weapon allows him to fend off Danvers then it certainly should have allowed him to kill Cap and Tony and maybe Thor.)

The final time Carol faces him, he doesn't have the weapon.
He does have the Stark Gauntlet but she is preventing him from closing his fist or snapping. Without a weapon, he seems unable to overpower her. We even get that beautiful headbutt that doesn't even mess Carol's hair (and the look on her face is priceless!). Thanos has to remove the Power Stone from the Gauntlet and punch her with the Stone (which should kill anyone but even that only tosses her across the field leaving her temporarily concussed.



On the topic of Tony "pick-pocketing" the stones...
We've known the MCU Tony Stark for 11 years. This version of the character has been in 10 films. We the audience know this guy. I really don't think it even needs to count as a "fan wank" to suggest that since he *designed the new Gauntlet with his own tech* that he would have had a safeguard allowing him to recall the stones from one piece of Stark tech to another piece of Stark tech.
If they had included a line of dialog "And I've programmed the Stark Gauntlet to allow me to recall the stones as needed" it would have be a horribly clunky bit of forced foreshadowing.



Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool (Post 21612047)
Seems like a few of the c-listers (bucky or valkyrie or wasp or something) could have died to make it all feel more real and add stakes.

Although the idea of killing off a few c-listers isn't a bad idea, I can't get behind your list.

Hope/Wasp very well may be my current favorite MCU character and she's barely had a chance to come into herself yet. I have been loving Paul Rudd as Ant-Man but the character doesn't have the superhero gravitas to really go much further. Wasp is far more interesting because she actually understands the science of the tech she is using, is capable of making advancements, and (most interesting of all) hasn't really shown much interest in being a "good guy" yet. In the first movie, she participates specifically in a plot to bring down a dangerous man who she and her father have reason to view as "a monster of our own making". In the second film, she's really only serving her own interests. There's no greater good, she's really not a hero. So, with as much as I already love the character, I can't wait to see her develop even further.

Valkyrie immediately became a major fan favorite.
Her place at the end of Endgame seems to me to indicate that the Studio doesn't quite have an idea yet as to what to do with her next but they know that fans love her. When Thor left her on Earth it definitely felt to me like "Stick a pin in this one, we'll come back to her later." Maybe they'll get distracted and end up letting the character fall by the wayside but, for now, I think they're very aware of how much fans love her.

Bucky is the one who I don't really see having much of a future in the MCU.
Killing him in battle, however, would have significantly hurt Cap's happy ending.


Characters who I think are known and loved enough to have an effective noble death scene but, commercially speaking, wouldn't be wasted here would be:
*) M'Baku
*) Rhodey (but maybe too much of a toll on the "Iron Man Family" given the loss of Tony).
*) For me personally, I could say Scott Lang. Again, I have love Paul Rudd and the character of Scott so far but that would have just made his death that much more emotional. And, although I have loved his character so far, I just don't think he has much to offer going forward. I would much rather see a solo Wasp movie than to continue on with Scott.
*) Wanda. Commercially speaking, I think she has potential going forward but I just think the writers and higher-ups haven't figured out yet who she is or what they want to do with her. We met her four years ago, have seen her in four films, and I still don't feel much of a connection with her.

RikWriter 04-27-2019 11:03 AM

They weren't going to kill off anyone else because it would have taken the focus off Tony's death, thematically.

BeepKillBeep 04-27-2019 11:13 AM

I would give it a 3000 out of 10. It greatly exceeded my extremely high expectations.

Jonathan Chance 04-27-2019 11:24 AM

I'd also point out from that list that Wanda and Bucky are also going to be in featured series on Disney+ when it comes out later this year. So those guys are staying.

So far I think the announced ones are:

WandaVision - which implies Vision's coming back somehow
Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Loki
What If?
Hawkeye

So there'll be more chance to get to know them.

Alessan 04-27-2019 11:29 AM

You know what the end battle "gauntlet relay race' felt like to me? Like the closing number of an all-star benefit concert, when all the artists come onstage for one last massive jam session/singalong, with everyone stepping forward in turn to do a solo.
"Let's hear it for Spider-Man!"
"Give it up for Black Panther!"
"And now, the one, the only... Iron Man!"

AK84 04-27-2019 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alessan (Post 21612408)
You know what the end battle "gauntlet relay race' felt like to me? Like the closing number of an all-star benefit concert, when all the artists come onstage for one last massive jam session/singalong, with everyone stepping forward in turn to do a solo.
"Let's hear it for Spider-Man!"
"Give it up for Black Panther!"
"And now, the one, the only... Iron Man!"

That....is a very apt description.
I agree, it was better they concentrated on the “old” Avengers. It was quite a salute to a decade of the MCU.

Sam Lowry 04-27-2019 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21612349)
Peters surviving classmates will be long graduated by then.

Right, it would be super weird for Peter to go back to school in what feels like no time has passed, but presumably the world will be different in 2024, and to have half of his classmates gone, but the other half of his class being 17 year olds who survived the snap and have lived through five years of grief and survivor's guilt. And half of his teachers would have a really hard time teaching at first, since they survived the snap and already mourned half of their students and now they are back like nothing happened.

I'm not expecting Spider-man Far From Home or the rest of the Marvel movies to be like The Leftovers and everyone processing the crazy grief and confusion from these events, but I am curious how it is handled.

Jonathan Chance 04-27-2019 11:39 AM

Not to mention can you imagine the fundamentalists in the MCU?

The snap happens. A big chunk think it's the rapture and they got left behind. Chaos ensues.

Five years later the survivors of the above see the people they'd thought brought to heaven suddenly come back? That'll be a weird scene.

There's not way a significant chuck of the surviving world population doesn't think God is working his mojo here.

FlikTheBlue 04-27-2019 01:15 PM

Here’s another interesting question regarding the timeline. With the whole 5 years later thing, does that mean that Infinity Wars happened in 2014 and Endgame in 2019, or is it 2019 and 2024? I assume it’s the former, but what does that do for the timelines of all the other films?

iiandyiiii 04-27-2019 01:28 PM

Where did Valkyrie get her pegasus?

bienville 04-27-2019 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 21612496)
Where did Valkyrie get her pegasus?

All that was available was a horse and she said, “Well, I guess I’m just going to have to wing it.”

kenobi 65 04-27-2019 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brossa (Post 21612247)
The place where it was filmed may have been Scotland, but the road sign as Hulk and Rocket drive into New Asgard says "Velkommen til Tønsberg". Tønsberg is an actual city, purportedly the oldest in Norway. The real Tønsberg is bigger than the fishing village seen in the movie, though.

IIRC, Tonsberg has “appeared” twice before in MCU films:
- In Thor, it was the site of a battle between the Asgardians and the frost giants.
- In Captain America:The First Avenger, it was where the Red Skull found the Tesseract.

Mahaloth 04-27-2019 02:47 PM

I am glad I saw it last night. On Yahoo's front page, there are two news stories:

- Explaining Endgame - Banner + Hulk is Professor Hulk

and

- We need to talk about that Black Widow Situation

I mean, come on. Any hinting is spoiler suggesting at least. The Hulk one is a full spoiler.

storyteller0910 04-27-2019 04:17 PM

OK. I loved this movie. I loved, loved, loved this movie. It was like they basically made a movie specifically for me. There's just one thing bugging me, but it's bugging me a lot and it's making me enjoy the movie in retrospect less than I want to. Posting it here in the hopes that someone can offer an explanation that makes me feel better about it :-)

Let's talk about Captain America's ending. Midway through the movie, when Banner is talking to the Ancient One, she outlines the rules of time travel in this fiction pretty neatly. You make a change to the past - like taking an infinity stone out of the timeline - and it causes a split in the timeline, with unpredictable results. This is why it was important to return each of the stones to its point of origin when the heist was done. OK, fine. Straightforward, simple, unfussy, and mostly the movie adhered to this.

So let's designate the MCU timeline we've all been watching for fifteen years and call it Timeline Prime. The Avengers return to various points in Timeline Prime and do things that might result in a split to the timeline: take out infinity stones, have interactions with key characters, even drag Thanos five some odd years into the future. But by returning the infinity stones to their points of origins, presumably we are to understand that the Avengers obviated these splits. Thus Timeline Prime remains intact, if a bit twisty, and there are no splits.

But.

At the end of the movie, Cap decides to travel back to 1970 (or whatever year), where I guess he reunites with and marries Peggy Carter and gets his Happily Ever After. Now, according to the rules as I understood them to this point, this should have split the timeline. And if Cap had simply disappeared and never reappeared, Sam Beckett-style, it all would have made sense. Presumably he had his adventures with Peggy or whatever, but that's a different timeline and this is not that story. I would have loved that ending, and you could still have him leave a note and the shield for Sam and gotten the same torch pass with a nice voice over.

But that's not what happened! Instead, Cap appears right here in Timeline Prime as an old man, presumably having lived through all of the events of Timeline Prime as a second Steve Rogers. In order for this to be possible, this would have to mean that Transported Cap took no action that would cause the timeline to split. So he arrived in 1970 (or whenever) knowing that of his three best friends in the world, one will die alone on a planet light years from her home, one will die a young man leaving a wife and daughter behind and bereft, and one is being slowly brainwashed in a foreign land. You're expecting me to believe that the Steve Rogers we have come to know over all of these movies wouldn't have been on the first plane to Russia to try to rescue Bucky? That he'd just have done nothing about all the Hydra agents hanging around his wife's workplace? That he'd not have intervened in a thousand ways, any one of which would have ensured that he'd never again be a part of Timeline Prime? That idea is such a betrayal of the character of Captain America as it's been shown that I can't accept it - and yet I can't find any other explanation for him showing up in Timeline Prime at the end (with Nat and Tony still dead).

Somebody talk me down.

DigitalC 04-27-2019 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storyteller0910 (Post 21612632)

Somebody talk me down.

Maybe he is smart enough to realize he wouldn't be helping them, just splitting the timeline and his friends would still go through all that. It would be a selfish act just to make himself feel better.

iiandyiiii 04-27-2019 04:27 PM

It was the most "comic-book-y" of any movie I've ever seen. The MCU has always been good at this, but this took it to another level. Not just the visuals of battles between huge groups of heroes and villains, but the truly wacky story that wasn't outright comedy (like Thor: Ragnarok and GotG) but was still way wackier than any other MCU movie. I loved it!

The Other Waldo Pepper 04-27-2019 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalC (Post 21612641)
Maybe he is smart enough to realize he wouldn't be helping them, just splitting the timeline and his friends would still go through all that. It would be a selfish act just to make himself feel better.

Selfish? Wouldn’t the most altruistic thing be to split off a new timeline whenever possible, doing your best to set the inhabitants on a path to thrive?

iiandyiiii 04-27-2019 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper (Post 21612656)
Selfish? Wouldn’t the most altruistic thing be to split off a new timeline whenever possible, doing your best to set the inhabitants on a path to thrive?

Too much timey-wimey stuff. I choose to see it as Cap made all these decisions in various timelines, and we just happened to see the one in which he kept everything secret and lived a quiet life with Peggy.

Uniqueorn 04-27-2019 05:18 PM

Isn't an inverted Moebius strip the same as a Moebius strip? Anyway, everybody knows that this is not how time travel works. It is more of a Klein bottle thing! Apart from that (and too much Hawkey, not enough Captain Marvel), it was very enjoyable.

MaxTheVool 04-27-2019 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21612157)
No problem. Most films, as the credit rolls, sees people typing "does xyz have a post credits scene"into their smartphones anyway.

That's what I usually do... but this time I didn't, because, come on, MARVEL. Ah well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bienville
We've known the MCU Tony Stark for 11 years. This version of the character has been in 10 films. We the audience know this guy. I really don't think it even needs to count as a "fan wank" to suggest that since he *designed the new Gauntlet with his own tech* that he would have had a safeguard allowing him to recall the stones from one piece of Stark tech to another piece of Stark tech.
If they had included a line of dialog "And I've programmed the Stark Gauntlet to allow me to recall the stones as needed" it would have be a horribly clunky bit of forced foreshadowing.

I think there's a middle ground. As it is, this absolutely key, pivotal moment, is still left unclear to us. Did he just manually unfasten them all, one by one? Did he program a backdoor into the glove that Hulk used, just because he's paranoid and clever? Did he very quickly nano-reprogram his own suit for stone-stealing? Seems like that would have been a perfect time for Strange to have given him some foreknowledge, allowing him to perfectly set up all the tech for that precise moment... which would have been the culmination of the 1-in-14-million. As it is, it just felt a bit... weird. For all of his great moments and amazing skills, none that I can recall involved having super-quick pickpocketing fingers.

(Not that I think it ruined the movie, or the moment... but I do think it felt a bit out of left field.)


As for the women-team-up scene, after a few hours of pondering, I've realized how I would do it, which would also solve another minor problem, which is that Thanos's chief minions, who were quite serious mini-bosses in their own right last movie, barely registered.

So one of the (male) minions is fighting one of the female good guys. They trade blows, then he gets the upper hand, and makes a derisive sexist comment, calling her a little girl, or something. Then we do a series of camera cuts all around the battlefield as triumphant music plays, showing all the female heroes kicking ass, ending back at the initial fight, and she responds with a one liner like "I'm not a girl, I'm a woman" (but more funny) and dodges his death blow and chops his ass in half.

Same general celebratory effect, makes way more sense.

storyteller0910 04-27-2019 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii (Post 21612667)
Too much timey-wimey stuff. I choose to see it as Cap made all these decisions in various timelines, and we just happened to see the one in which he kept everything secret and lived a quiet life with Peggy.

I can't accept this, though, because Steve could not have made various decisions in various timelines - there's only one of him, it's just that his own personal timeline has some weird loops in it. If he went back in time and lived a quiet life with Peggy, that's what he did, but he doesn't get to make a bunch of different decisions.

Quote:

Maybe he is smart enough to realize he wouldn't be helping them, just splitting the timeline and his friends would still go through all that. It would be a selfish act just to make himself feel better.
I also don't accept this. So, OK, Steve goes back in time and does a bunch of stuff such that Thanos never gets hold of the Infinity Stones at all. Timeline Prime remains unchanged; Steve Rogers isn't in it after 2024, and Nat and Tony are dead and so on. But now there's also Timeline Beta, in which Nat and Tony are alive and Bucky got some semblance of a normal life and whatever else.

Above all, it just doesn't seem in character for Steve to not try to help. I mean, on the most basic level, his now-wife works for S.H.I.E.L.D. Is he just going to... not tell her that HYDRA is/has infiltrated her workplace? If he tells her, boom, timeline changed, because a Peggy who knows that stuff makes very different, probably pretty significant choices than the Peggy in Timeline Prime. So Steve Rogers doesn't appear at the end of the story in Timeline Prime. But a Steve Rogers who doesn't tell the woman he loves something that important is essentially unrecognizable to me.

Half Man Half Wit 04-27-2019 05:54 PM

The thing is, there's no timeline in which Steve gets sent back in time and doesn't turn up on the bench. Because in every timeline in which he chooses to intervene, the events leading to him being sent back simply don't happen. Since we are in a timeline in which they did, we know he can't have intervened.

Locrian 04-27-2019 06:11 PM

I loved it. I have not seen all of the movies, but this was a great story arc for the Avengers movies.

The only thing I guessed was just after the tease with Tony leaving a message for Avengers/Pepper in the broken helmet. I said, "Ah, shit. He's dead." I was only worried that he'd die before the big battle for some stupid reason. But it was a bitter-sweet end. And I like how Doc Strange KNEW this, but couldn't reveal it and didn't need to.

Only one small downside for me was I was hoping that-- Okay, so you've got this time theft thingy. Some get the stones, some don't. And a few more disintegrated heroes emerge from the zone. Maybe Spidey, War Machine, and Panther. I thought maybe some would return depending on which stone they got. So we would get more screen time with the missing. Then LATER, the rest appear from the portals for the battle.

But I realized that IF they did that, it'd be way too confusing time wise. And it actually was great the way they did it. Apparently, the one plan that worked was getting everyone to that moment when the battle would start. It tricked Thanos & Company, it tricked the Avengers that were setting it up (they had to go through all their loss in order to get everyone there), and it tricked the audience.

It was a very good comic-book style story. And the endings that have some kind of loss seem much more real than, "Hey, we all did it! Let's all return to the Justice League" type endings. It was also a big "thank you" to Robert Downey Jr. His Iron Man/Tony Stark performance is unforgettable.

Can't wait to watch again!

Dewey Finn 04-27-2019 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21612157)
He is getting the shield and the responsibillity. Not the actual title. They had the pym particles, the quantum generator. If they really need Cap back, they can just go and get him from 1948.

Practically speaking, we're not going to see the same character again, becuase Chris Evans (and Robert Downey Jr and Chris Hemsworth) are done with these movies. The studio will start over with newer, cheaper, actors and characters as Captain America and Iron Man. (Much as the comic books do, although I'm not a comics reader.)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uniqueorn (Post 21612699)
Isn't an inverted Moebius strip the same as a Moebius strip?

I was wondering about that.

As for my opinion, I liked it. Very funny and fun. I went to a showing at 11:15am today (Saturday, April 27) and at about 10:30am, of the twenty screens in the multiplex, nine were showing this movie.

FlikTheBlue 04-27-2019 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storyteller0910 (Post 21612733)
I can't accept this, though, because Steve could not have made various decisions in various timelines - there's only one of him, it's just that his own personal timeline has some weird loops in it. If he went back in time and lived a quiet life with Peggy, that's what he did, but he doesn't get to make a bunch of different decisions.



I also don't accept this. So, OK, Steve goes back in time and does a bunch of stuff such that Thanos never gets hold of the Infinity Stones at all. Timeline Prime remains unchanged; Steve Rogers isn't in it after 2024, and Nat and Tony are dead and so on. But now there's also Timeline Beta, in which Nat and Tony are alive and Bucky got some semblance of a normal life and whatever else.

Above all, it just doesn't seem in character for Steve to not try to help. I mean, on the most basic level, his now-wife works for S.H.I.E.L.D. Is he just going to... not tell her that HYDRA is/has infiltrated her workplace? If he tells her, boom, timeline changed, because a Peggy who knows that stuff makes very different, probably pretty significant choices than the Peggy in Timeline Prime. So Steve Rogers doesn't appear at the end of the story in Timeline Prime. But a Steve Rogers who doesn't tell the woman he loves something that important is essentially unrecognizable to me.

I assume he did help and do all those things, but it only affected his timeline and not the prime timeline. Presumably he tried to help them as well but was unable to due to his not being a time travel master. As for how he appeared in the prime timeline as an old man, presumably he had just one dose of the Pym particles left and used it after Peggy died from natural causes / old age.

Mahaloth 04-27-2019 06:54 PM

I just want Thor to join the Guardians of the Galaxy in the next movie.

kenobi 65 04-27-2019 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21612780)
I just want Thor to join the Guardians of the Galaxy in the next movie.

Well, that scene at the end clearly set the stage for it, so maybe they'll get one last film out of Hemsworth as the Dude of Thunder. :D

Jack Batty 04-27-2019 07:30 PM

I just got back from a second showing. This time I was much more alert and I was actually able to follow the plot -- mostly. I enjoyed all the preamble movies, but I never really put too much study toward what all those stones meant and did and were called and all that shit, so this second, alert, viewing really helped me put some puzzle pieces together. Also on first showing, I had totally missed the Early Bad Nebula disguised as Later Good Nebula thing, so that cleared up some plot points as well.

My only disappointment was that this crowd was so subdued. The humor got the laughs but the hero moments got barely anything. It was kind of weird. I mean I knew it was coming but when Cap is revealed with Mjolnir I actually got a little emotional but no one seemed to want to woo-hoo with me. I guess Saturday matinees are not the time for raucous viewings.

Dewey Finn 04-27-2019 07:36 PM

I'll bet Chris Hemsworth was happy that he didn't have to do the whole six months in a gym for five hours a day routine to get into prime shape to play a shirtless musclebound superhero.

dasmoocher 04-27-2019 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue (Post 21612778)
As for how he appeared in the prime timeline as an old man, presumably he had just one dose of the Pym particles left and used it after Peggy died from natural causes / old age.

My impression was that Cap didn't use the Pym particles and just aged naturally, but I could be wrong. Maybe the Super-soldier serum gave him a slower aging process. He just knew where and when to show up. When did Peggy Carter pass away in the original timeline? I vaguely remember a scene where she's old and in bed and talking to the unaged Cap.

kenobi 65 04-27-2019 07:43 PM

I realized, as I was driving home after seeing the film, that the secret SHIELD underground bunker at Camp Lehigh, which Steve and Tony infiltrate in 1970, is the same bunker from Winter Soldier, where Steve and Nat encounter the disembodied intelligence of Arnim Zola.

The Other Waldo Pepper 04-27-2019 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmoocher (Post 21612818)
My impression was that Cap didn't use the Pym particles and just aged naturally, but I could be wrong. Maybe the Super-soldier serum gave him a slower aging process. He just knew where and when to show up. When did Peggy Carter pass away in the original timeline? I vaguely remember a scene where she's old and in bed and talking to the unaged Cap.

Do you remember the scene at her funeral, in CIVIL WAR?

dasmoocher 04-27-2019 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper (Post 21612821)
Do you remember the scene at her funeral, in CIVIL WAR?

Actually, no. It's been a while. So, that's set in 2016? Doesn't seem like Cap would need Pym particles just to jump a few years.

HowSoonIsThen 04-27-2019 08:04 PM

Oh man, this thread had about 10 replies last time I checked. I was in no rush to post but I see it's really taken off.

I haven't read through every post, but I doubt I have anything to say about this movie that hasn't already been said. I think I prefered Infinity War, but this was a damn fine conclusion. I was a bit worried at the start, as it felt messy and rushed for the first 30 minutes or so. But once it hit it's stride I pretty much enjoyed every minute of it. The fact that they weren't technically fighting the same Thanos from Infinity War may lessen the emotional impact of his defeat, and the time travel leaves a lot of unanswered questions as always, but still it was great. Loved "let himself go" Thor and Professor Hulk, and sometime around Age of Ultron Hawkeye became one of my favourite Avengers.

Cap picking up Thor's hammer was a major audience applause moment. As was the en masse return of the fallen heroes, and of course Thanos trying to snap his fingers but finding out that Tony had taken them. I've never been a fan of audiences applauding at the movies. I mean, it's not a play, the cast and crew aren't there to hear you. But it created a great vibe.

My only real problem was Steve's send off. Taken by itself it's the perfect end to his arc. But it comes so abruptly after Ton'y death that I didn't feel there was enough time given to truly appreciate it. Also, obviously without Captain Marvel there Tony and Nebula would've died in space, but still her presence seemed overhyped.

Dewey Finn 04-27-2019 08:06 PM

Was I the only one who thought the ending would involve a reset back five years prior, and that would mean that Tony Stark's daughter would no longer exist?

brossa 04-27-2019 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit (Post 21612746)
The thing is, there's no timeline in which Steve gets sent back in time and doesn't turn up on the bench. Because in every timeline in which he chooses to intervene, the events leading to him being sent back simply don't happen. Since we are in a timeline in which they did, we know he can't have intervened.

I agree with this, and with the time travel theory that the Ancient One relates to Hulk: it's the removal of an Infinity Stone from the timeline that causes a forking, not time travel itself. The past is fixed, so going back in time can only fulfill it, not alter it. The actions of time travelers are already accounted for in history, and the actions of the time travelers sent back to oppose them, and those sent back to oppose that crew. It has all already happened. But....

When a Stone is pulled out of a timeline, a fork occurs, and an alternate timeline pops up in which 'new' events can happen - although here too, all things that occur only fulfill a history, not alter it. Of course, altering things in a fork does nothing to solve the problem in the original time line that you came from.

So when Cap and Iron Man and Hulk and Ant Man go to New York, everything happens as we remember it from Avengers, because the Endgame folks were already there doing stuff in the margins. Things don't go off course until Hulk gets the Time Stone from the Ancient One and peaces out to return to 2024, at which point a branch forms and a new-to-us series of events takes place with Cap fighting himself, Loki tesseracting away, etc. Then Ant Man pulls the Mind Stone to 2024, creating a new branch off this branch. Just before this, Iron Man and Cap slide back to 1970's New Jersey, where again they don't change any history until they remove the Tesseract to 2024, again creating a new branch point.

Thanos could not have traveled to 2024 from the main timeline, because he didn't do in before. But once the Power stone was pulled, an alternate timeline Thanos could do it.

So back to Steve Rogers - all the other time travelers returned to the travel pad, but Steve appears off on a bench. To me this implies that he just lived in the current timeline up until the present day, and then hoofed it to the Avengers compound to get there on the correct day. After returning the Stones, thereby collapsing the alternate timelines, he returned to the 40's to live a life with Peggy. He may have done this knowing that nothing he could do at that point would have any effect on the timeline - in fact this would have given him the freedom to not have to try to act, so he could just 'have a life'. Or maybe he did all kinds of stuff, that ended up solving all kinds of problems that we never learned about. Maybe it was his actions that kept Hydra hidden at Shield until the 2010's instead of taking over in the '80s. Maybe his actions limited the damage caused by Bucky. Maybe he is the reason the Red Skull was shackled to the Soul stone instead of returning to Earth or joining with Thanos. Whatever he did, it was already accounted for in the history that we are aware of.

Now, what's really going to bake your noodle is what would happen if Steve returned the stones to the forked branches at some later time, rather than at the time of their removal like Hulk promised? Or did them in the wrong order when there are branches from branches?

Folacin 04-27-2019 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool (Post 21612729)
Did he very quickly nano-reprogram his own suit for stone-stealing? Seems like that would have been a perfect time for Strange to have given him some foreknowledge, allowing him to perfectly set up all the tech for that precise moment... which would have been the culmination of the 1-in-14-million. As it is, it just felt a bit... weird. For all of his great moments and amazing skills, none that I can recall involved having super-quick pickpocketing fingers.

I like your concept, but I don't think it could work. Strange couldn't tell Tony about how it was going to work prior to the snap because then it wouldn't work (because "you'll need to have a way to pull the stones from one Ironman glove to another" is a pretty major spoiler). And of course, there was no time between Hulk's snap and Strange undusting for him to tell Tony anything (or for Tony to build anything).

And he wouldn't need pickpocketing skills - his magic tech could easily swap the stones when the two gloves were actually in contact with each other.

Jack Batty 04-27-2019 08:53 PM

The best part of my reviewing today: I was sitting next to a family and right at the start of the film, when they track Thanos down and Thor cuts off his head and they realize the stones are gone and they're all fucked ... Thor walks down the stairs, the focus gets fuzzy and it fades to black ... the kid sitting next to me says, "The End."

I snorted.

peccavi 04-27-2019 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Batty (Post 21612198)
I couldn't disagree more with those poo-poo-ing the all women fighting force coming together bit.

I agree, and I have two comments on this scene:
  1. In a battle that consists largely of a character with just the right powers showing up to save another character's bacon, the female rescuers felt just as organic.
  2. When this occurred, the little girl sitting next to me got up on her knees in her seat and fist pumped. As far as I'm concerned, that settles the argument on whether the scene is a highlight of the film.
I thought the "rebooting" of Gamora is a clever way to set up a better Guardians movie. Prior to this, Quill and Gamora's relationship was dangerously close to the dreaded loving couple, which loses a lot to the tension between the two that contributed to the first movie. Now they've got it back.

Finally, I advise not trying to analyze the details of the time travel element. Since time travel is inherently paradoxical, there is no way to use it as an airtight plot element. Whenever time travel shows up in a movie, I just amp up my suspension of disbelief and sit back and enjoy.

galen ubal 04-27-2019 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Batty (Post 21612922)
The best part of my reviewing today: I was sitting next to a family and right at the start of the film, when they track Thanos down and Thor cuts off his head and they realize the stones are gone and they're all fucked ... Thor walks down the stairs, the focus gets fuzzy and it fades to black ... the kid sitting next to me says, "The End."

I snorted.

Heh. At that point, I glanced at my watch, leaned over to my wife, and whispered: "At fifteen minutes in, all hope is lost." :D

Mahaloth 04-27-2019 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Batty (Post 21612922)
The best part of my reviewing today: I was sitting next to a family and right at the start of the film, when they track Thanos down and Thor cuts off his head and they realize the stones are gone and they're all fucked ... Thor walks down the stairs, the focus gets fuzzy and it fades to black ... the kid sitting next to me says, "The End."

I snorted.

My wife made the same joke. "Boom, end of movie! Got your money, suckers!"

Southern Yankee 04-27-2019 10:09 PM

Loved it. Cap wielding Moljnir was probably the most satisfying cinematic experience I have had in 20 years.. I can nitpick the screen time of some characters, but geez, with an epic of this magnitude I think they did a phenomenal job.

Lance Turbo 04-27-2019 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Yankee (Post 21613019)
Loved it. Cap wielding Moljnir was probably the most satisfying cinematic experience I have had in 20 years.. I can nitpick the screen time of some characters, but geez, with an epic of this magnitude I think they did a phenomenal job.

I noticed out of the corner of my eye that some jackass in the theater fist pumped when that happened. I looked and saw that it was my own fist and realized that jackass was me.

Mahaloth 04-27-2019 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Turbo (Post 21613086)
I noticed out of the corner of my eye that some jackass in the theater fist pumped when that happened. I looked and saw that it was my own fist and realized that jackass was me.

I love this.

Yes, I think Captain with the hammer is a top theatrical moment. My top of all time are:

Sixth Sense - theater went nuts when the twist came out. Opening night. We had NO idea. Not a riot, but the theater broke out in conversation and screams of shock. Amazing. Never seen anything like that moment. Strangers talking to strangers about what just happened.

Fellowship of the Ring - The Balrog roaring on screen made my crowd cheer and scream. Aragorn decapitating the main Uruk-hai got full applause from my crowd.

I'm trying to think of other "reaction" moments in the theater. Captain with the hammer was a really well done won and the fight with his shield in hammer keeps the crowd cheering. Great scene.

Thor: "I knew it!!!"

Lance Turbo 04-27-2019 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21613115)
I love this.

Yes, I think Captain with the hammer is a top theatrical moment. My top of all time are:

Sixth Sense - theater went nuts when the twist came out. Opening night. We had NO idea. Not a riot, but the theater broke out in conversation and screams of shock. Amazing. Never seen anything like that moment. Strangers talking to strangers about what just happened.

Fellowship of the Ring - The Balrog roaring on screen made my crowd cheer and scream. Aragorn decapitating the main Uruk-hai got full applause from my crowd.

I'm trying to think of other "reaction" moments in the theater. Captain with the hammer was a really well done won and the fight with his shield in hammer keeps the crowd cheering. Great scene.

Thor: "I knew it!!!"

Saving Private Ryan. I saw it in a packed theater that collectively held their breath when Pvt. Mellish (Adam Golberg) lost his struggle for a bayonet with a Nazi.

Mijin 04-27-2019 11:38 PM

Saw Endgame last night. I'm lukewarm about it; I'd put it somewhere around Civil War.

Good:
1. Still plenty of surprises like early dispatch of Thanos, Cap wielding the hammer etc.
2. Good send off for Iron man.
3. Sure didn't feel like 3 hours.

Bad:
1. Found time travel plot pretty confusing at times, and the videos I've seen online trying to explain it only made things worse (prime example: Shadiversity). Iron man getting the stones just happened and wasn't really explained.
2. Some of the humor fell a bit flat. Fat Thor was a good visual gag that they didn't know what to do with. Joke with ant man trying to get an autograph was great but they dragged it out too long. And on and on.

AK84 04-28-2019 01:59 AM

I dunno why Cap ending is confusing people.
1) He chose to go back to the late 1940's early 50's at the latest. The model of the cars seen outside indicates that.
2) I am guessing the Rogers who went back would know better than to mess with the timeline. He has evolved in his thinking from his early MCU portryal, we see that in his confrontation with 2012 Captain America. Which incidentally makes clear that no problem in having two versions of the same people (plural, we see both Starks) interacting with each other in the MCU.
3) He can live his life with Peggy. And he knows if he really is needed in the present he can easily be called back. Its having his cake and eating it too.

The people he was closest to i.e Tony and Natasha are dead. Sam and Bucky, are dead. Yes they are back, but he has mourned them and moved on. He really has nothing left in the present. Except maybe free music and gigabytes of porn at reasonable rates?

caligulathegod 04-28-2019 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21612555)
I am glad I saw it last night. On Yahoo's front page, there are two news stories:

- Explaining Endgame - Banner + Hulk is Professor Hulk

and

- We need to talk about that Black Widow Situation

I mean, come on. Any hinting is spoiler suggesting at least. The Hulk one is a full spoiler.

Oh, God, worse than that was on Facebook, At 9:15 pm on Thursday night, Nerdist.com posted a story I presume was about the kid from Iron Man 3 being at the funeral ("Who was that character at the end of Avengers:Endgame?"), but they didn't realize that on some browsers and apps, the first line of the story is previewed without having to click or even hover over it.

The first line was, "We are as emotionally prepared to discuss Tony Stark's funeral about as much as we're physically prepared to stick our head in an..."

Really?! Of all the spoilers, you spoil the biggest emotional beat of not only the movie, but the entire 11 year, 22 movie saga! I am still furious. I really am not a big spoiler adverse person, but that one was just too much, especially since just a few days before, they posted a video excoriating some trolls who had leaked spoilers from a preview screening just a few hours before.

icon 04-28-2019 02:43 AM

I just got back from watching the movie and I was wondering if anyone had any theories on what the sound was at the end of the credits. It sounds like someone banging on metal, and a friend suggested that it was perhaps the sound of someone trying to forge a new infinity gauntlet. Or may a new hammer for Thor since the one Cap took back was presumably destroyed?

Anyone else have any guesses?

//i\\

Go_Arachnid_Laser 04-28-2019 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21613257)
The people he was closest to i.e Tony and Natasha are dead. Sam and Bucky, are dead. Yes they are back, but he has mourned them and moved on. He really has nothing left in the present. Except maybe free music and gigabytes of porn at reasonable rates?

This ending means that literally he kept shut when Kennedy was killed, when the Challenger exploded, with Columbine and 9/11. He said nothing to his wife, SHIELD founder Peggy Carter while Hydra was infiltrating her organization. He allowed his best friend Bucky to keep being brainwashed and murdering people (Including Tony Stark's parents) for decades.

What a hero.

Also, Sharon Carter realizing that she was dealing with younger uncle Steve, who she saw regularly at family gatherings, and making out with him anyway.

Go_Arachnid_Laser 04-28-2019 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icon (Post 21613274)
I just got back from watching the movie and I was wondering if anyone had any theories on what the sound was at the end of the credits. It sounds like someone banging on metal, and a friend suggested that it was perhaps the sound of someone trying to forge a new infinity gauntlet. Or may a new hammer for Thor since the one Cap took back was presumably destroyed?

Anyone else have any guesses?

//i\\

From what I've read the "anvil cling" sound comes straight out of the scene in Iron Man 1 when Tony Stark is building his first suit in that cave.

It's a nod to the movie that started the ball rolling, nothing else.

icon 04-28-2019 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go_Arachnid_Laser (Post 21613278)
For what I've read the "anvil cling" sound comes straight out of the scene in Iron Man 1 when Tony Stark is building his first suit in that cave.

It's a nod to the movie that started the ball rolling, nothing else.

I had not thought of that, but it certainly fits. Ignorance fought!

//i\\

lawoot 04-28-2019 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Turbo (Post 21613137)
Saving Private Ryan. I saw it in a packed theater that collectively held their breath when Pvt. Mellish (Adam Golberg) lost his struggle for a bayonet with a Nazi.

"SHH-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh!"

Half Man Half Wit 04-28-2019 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go_Arachnid_Laser (Post 21613276)
This ending means that literally he kept shut when Kennedy was killed, when the Challenger exploded, with Columbine and 9/11. He said nothing to his wife, SHIELD founder Peggy Carter while Hydra was infiltrating her organization. He allowed his best friend Bucky to keep being brainwashed and murdering people (Including Tony Stark's parents) for decades.

What a hero.

Well, all that stuff would still happen, no matter what Cap does in the past. He might've split off a timeline in which things occur differently, but that wouldn't have any influence on the prime timeline, where these things have occurred as we saw them. So there's really no saving anybody.

That said, one might argue that splitting off another timeline to save people there, so that you have the prime timeline where Kennedy dies, the Challenger explodes, Hydra infiltrates SHIELD, and so on, and one in which Cap acts to prevent something, might be preferable---at least, in that timeline, all the bad stuff is prevented, so at least those versions of the people get saved, even if the originals die, right?

Except that doesn't work that way, either. The first change Cap introduces branches the timeline off; after that, his foreknowledge at least can't be 100% certain. Plus, each such change may have unforeseen consequences, that could well end up worse than the original timeline. Remember, the original version of events was the only one in 14 million possibilities where they end up beating Thanos; any change altering course from that timeline would end in at least halve the universe being eradicated.

And that's just one threat. Any change he introduces may lead to the Avengers never being formed, and the world being overrun by the Chitauri---or, of course, some other catastrophe happening, one he doesn't have any foreknowledge of.

(Indeed, it's also possible that we saw a timeline---from the beginning---which was the best possible version that Cap could bring about; i. e. old Cap we saw in the end was from another timeline, where even worse stuff happened, which he worked all these years in the background to prevent, leading to the timeline we saw as the main MCU timeline.)

Ashtura 04-28-2019 03:46 AM

I liked it, but I think I liked infinity war better.

My criticisms:

I think "bummed out Avengers" dragged on a bit too long. As an audience we were over it so they probably could have glossed over it more. 5 year jump and we have to have a support group scene?

I like time travel stories, but I like them to be clever. This seemed like time travel for a nostalgia trip.

Fat Thor throughout the entire movie was distracting. I found it unnecessary.

The Cgi was overdone and was borderline bad at several points.

Otherwise I liked it. I choked up a bit when Tony died (I was expecting him to die but not expecting it to affect me so much) and there were some thrilling moments near the end.

Worth seeing and seeing early.

Mijin 04-28-2019 04:39 AM

It occurs to me that this is a similar situation to LOTR - Return of the King.

Many of the reviews that give the highest praise for the movie devote most of their content to talking about what the movie represents ; the conclusion to an epic saga and all that Marvel has built and yadda yadda.

For me, I really respect what marvel has done and some of it has been movie magic.
*and* I think the last movie was just OK.

Galwegian 04-28-2019 04:59 AM

So, New Asgard was definitely in Scotland. UK style town name sign, old S-reg UK RHD Land Rover...and the fact that Thor was clearly enjoying the c Scottish way of life!

Sent from my B3-A40FHD using Tapatalk

Miller 04-28-2019 05:01 AM

Regarding Captain America at the end of the movie. The movie was very clear that traveling back in time can’t change the present you started from - it just creates an alternate time line. All the Avengers who get sent back in time have those little devices that can jump them back to the point they left their own timeline. So, with the original plan of just stealing the stones from the past, it doesn’t prevent Thanos from doing the snap - the best you can do is create an alternate timeline where the snap never happened, but it will still have happened in your original time line.

So, when Cap went back, and stayed with Peggy, he created an alternate timeline where they got married and grew old together. Steve outlives Peggy - benefits of the super soldier serum - and then, finally, after decades of living in his alternate timeline, returns to his original timeline to give Sam the shield.

What’s notable here is that this means Cap doesn’t spent fifty years sitting on his ass while JFK is shot, and Hydra hollows out Shield, and all the rest of that stuff. Hell, Peggy’s running the OSS about a decade after the war. She’s not sitting around in her ass, either. The two of them probably got a pretty good start on making their timeline into a utopia, preventing most of the apocalypses we’ve seen before they start. But none of that happens in the time line we’ve seen in the movies. There’s at least two alternate timelines created in this movie that are likely way better than the original timeline - the “future Cap fixes everything” timeline I just posited, and one where shortly before the events of Guardians of the Galaxy, Thanos takes his flagship through a time warp and is never heard from again.

Also, the reason the Time Stone in particular is so important is that, if it vanishes in 2012, Dormammu destroys the planet in 2016.

Half Man Half Wit 04-28-2019 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller (Post 21613321)
So, when Cap went back, and stayed with Peggy, he created an alternate timeline where they got married and grew old together. Steve outlives Peggy - benefits of the super soldier serum - and then, finally, after decades of living in his alternate timeline, returns to his original timeline to give Sam the shield.

I thought about that possibility, too, but if he used the time-travel gizmo to get back, shouldn't he have reappeared on the time machine pad, only aged?

Southern Yankee 04-28-2019 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21613115)
I love this.

Yes, I think Captain with the hammer is a top theatrical moment. My top of all time are:

Sixth Sense - theater went nuts when the twist came out. Opening night. We had NO idea. Not a riot, but the theater broke out in conversation and screams of shock. Amazing. Never seen anything like that moment. Strangers talking to strangers about what just happened.

Fellowship of the Ring - The Balrog roaring on screen made my crowd cheer and scream. Aragorn decapitating the main Uruk-hai got full applause from my crowd.

I'm trying to think of other "reaction" moments in the theater. Captain with the hammer was a really well done won and the fight with his shield in hammer keeps the crowd cheering. Great scene.

Thor: "I knew it!!!"

The Gimp in Pulp Fiction. Never heard so many people say "what the fuck?" out loud in a theater.

Locrian 04-28-2019 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Yankee (Post 21613344)
The Gimp in Pulp Fiction. Never heard so many people say "what the fuck?" out loud in a theater.

Loudest I ever heard was for Mr. Samuel L. Jackson in Snakes on a Plane, after the quintessential line. Some gave a standing O.

Back to Endgame: Favorite line was Captain Marvel in beginning. "I'm going to go kill Thanos." The same way as saying, "I'm off to the grocery store.", or something. :D She is great.

Also, forget who first mentioned the tacos, but I'm using a pic of two tacos to use on FB as a response when someone says they had a bad day or had a bad lunch because of that scene with Hulk and Ant-Man at lunch. Like, there, there. Here's some tacos for you.

BTW, why the hell are they eating burgers and tacos? I'm sure they burn the calories, but...

carlb 04-28-2019 09:50 AM

Random thoughts:

Tony's death didn't impact me as much as it did others (although Peter's reaction hit me pretty hard; Tom Holland is crushing it as Peter); I figured he would go out with some kind of self-sacrifice. I was surprised at how much Nat's self-sacrifice hit me.

I think it's because of what she represented to Clint. I did think it was clever to have them struggling with each other to see who got to sacrifice themself for the greater good, and for a while I thought, "OK, this is a perfect place for Clint to go out; he's lost everything, he doesn't have as much to look forward to, so logically he should go." But then I realized that the Soul Stone requires a tremendous sacrifice, and for all that Nat clearly loves Clint (in a brother/sister kind of way), she also has the rest of the team. She's kept connected to them post-snap, and as damaged as everyone is, she's got people around her for support. If she loses Clint it's tragic, but in a way it's just another friend and teammate that she lost.

Nat is all that Clint has left. Yes, he's come back to the Avengers, but he hasn't really re-integrated himself. So losing her is Clint losing everything. It's pretty brutal.

Got a little misty-eyed when Tony gave Peter the big hug. *sniff*

Seeing Suri armed for battle got a surprise little cheer from me. Not sure why, other than that I love it when the usually non-combatant characters decide that they've had enough and they're going to kick some ass.

Damn, Danai Gurira is a beautiful woman.

I was the lone cheer when Cap picked up the hammer. It was a pretty quiet theater, but still. C'mon people, that was awesome!

Got really choked up when Scott saw his daughter for the first time. He does so much comedy, that I forget that Paul Rudd really is an excellent actor. He sold that scene.

I was very pleasantly surprised at the pace of the movie. There were a few slow moments, but it didn't fell like three hours to me.

I loved Dr. Strange just raising his index finger to Tony. "Yup. This is the one."

carlb 04-28-2019 10:05 AM

Forgot about my other favorite line. “Hail, Hydra.” Love when the characters are clever in addition to being badasses.

muldoonthief 04-28-2019 10:05 AM

I saw it last night and loved it. I won't repeat everything else has said, but one of my favorite parts was how much shit everyone gave Ant-Man throughout the whole movie, even though he's the one who came up with the plan and the technology to actually save everyone.

And I'm glad the technobabble as to why the two Nebulas could access each other's minds made some sense.

And I also really hope "melting ice cream" Thor shows up in GotG 3.

Folacin 04-28-2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locrian (Post 21613353)
BTW, why the hell are they eating burgers and tacos? I'm sure they burn the calories, but...

Because they are tasty! The only Avenger who is anywhere close to a paragon of virtue who might only eat healthy food is Cap, and he's evolved a lot. And a 1940's fellow is going to consider beef health food at any rate.

Dewey Finn 04-28-2019 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21613115)
I love this.

Yes, I think Captain with the hammer is a top theatrical moment. My top of all time are:

Sixth Sense - theater went nuts when the twist came out. Opening night. We had NO idea. Not a riot, but the theater broke out in conversation and screams of shock. Amazing. Never seen anything like that moment. Strangers talking to strangers about what just happened.

Fellowship of the Ring - The Balrog roaring on screen made my crowd cheer and scream. Aragorn decapitating the main Uruk-hai got full applause from my crowd.

I'm trying to think of other "reaction" moments in the theater. Captain with the hammer was a really well done won and the fight with his shield in hammer keeps the crowd cheering. Great scene.

Thor: "I knew it!!!"

If you don't mind, can you have the discussion of reaction moments in other movies in another thread? It's a distraction here.

Miller 04-28-2019 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half Man Half Wit (Post 21613339)
I thought about that possibility, too, but if he used the time-travel gizmo to get back, shouldn't he have reappeared on the time machine pad, only aged?

The gizmos give them control over their jumps - Steve and Tony used theirs to jump further back in time to 1970. Old Steve used his to land a little bit off from the platform. Guy used to be in show biz - he knows how to make an entrance.

D_Odds 04-28-2019 11:51 AM

I've read most of the thread, so maybe I've missed my specific time travel question.

I understand taking the Infinity Stones, using them, then returning them to when and where they were heisted, thus keeping the past intact and not causing schisms. I don't need an Ancient One/Dr. Strange explanation, because it made perfect sense. I understand that Rogers knows not to interfere with anything because he understands the implications. He's smart and disciplined. My question regards future travelling Thanos. Obviously, his forces are post-NY invasion, but also pre-Infinity War. Unless Tony simply sent them back (though it looks like he dusted them), that has created an alternate time line with no Gamora and more importantly, no more Thanos! So at the moment Thanos jumps to the future, schism. Or am I missing something?

Jack Batty 04-28-2019 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlb (Post 21613448)
I loved Dr. Strange just raising his index finger to Tony. "Yup. This is the one."

I think it was more than, "this is the one," but also, "you know what you have to do - you have to sacrifice yourself." Which goes a long way toward the whole, how (or at least why) did Tony pull off the stone pick-pocket trick. Because he had to in order to win - essentially.

Miller 04-28-2019 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D_Odds (Post 21613540)
I've read most of the thread, so maybe I've missed my specific time travel question.

I understand taking the Infinity Stones, using them, then returning them to when and where they were heisted, thus keeping the past intact and not causing schisms. I don't need an Ancient One/Dr. Strange explanation, because it made perfect sense. I understand that Rogers knows not to interfere with anything because he understands the implications. He's smart and disciplined. My question regards future travelling Thanos. Obviously, his forces are post-NY invasion, but also pre-Infinity War. Unless Tony simply sent them back (though it looks like he dusted them), that has created an alternate time line with no Gamora and more importantly, no more Thanos! So at the moment Thanos jumps to the future, schism. Or am I missing something?

Nope. There’s absolutely an alternate timeline where Thanos just vanishes from the universe and never assembled the Infinity stones, or did basically anything we saw him do from GotG forward.

digs 04-28-2019 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmoocher (Post 21611564)

The only seat left in town was in a brewpub/theater*. They had a huge amount of staff to run beer and food to your seat, and our head server said "If you need a bathroom break, watch for the Hulk carrying tacos. That's halfway through, and you'll have at least five minutes there."


*Flix Brewhouse, a lot of fun. I hadn't had anything to drink for five hours before, and didn't need a break. But I couldn't resist having a beer delivered during the movie, so I ordered one during the last half hour.

muldoonthief 04-28-2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go_Arachnid_Laser (Post 21613278)
From what I've read the "anvil cling" sound comes straight out of the scene in Iron Man 1 when Tony Stark is building his first suit in that cave.

It's a nod to the movie that started the ball rolling, nothing else.

It may indeed be "nothing else", but that's the exact point in previous MCU movies where they put up the simple graphic "Iron Man/The Avengers/Captain America/etc. will return." Heck, it's where they put "Thanos will return" at the end of Infinity War. So maybe a bit of foreshadowing that Iron Man (in some incarnation) will return?

cmkeller 04-28-2019 12:32 PM

storyteller0910:

Quote:

Somebody talk me down.
Do you remember that when Cap went back to 1970 and was in Peggy's office, he saw a picture of himself on Peggy's desk? He realized then that Peggy had lived/was living a life with him in the past - so he fulfilled that past when he refused to return via Pym particles at the end.

Have tons to say on the movie and on the thread, but aside from responding to this point, I'll wait until tomorrow, will have more time for computer-based leisure.

Mahaloth 04-28-2019 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlb (Post 21613448)
Got a little misty-eyed when Tony gave Peter the big hug. *sniff*

So glad they included this moment. I rolled my eyes when it was announced Tony Stark would be in the new Spider-man movie, but it was great and it makes a ton of sense for him to attach to this smart kid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlb (Post 21613459)
Forgot about my other favorite line. “Hail, Hydra.” Love when the characters are clever in addition to being badasses.

And great editing. My wife and I laughed when Steve knows about Hydra, and loved that it just cut to him walking away with the case(or whatever) because.....I mean....he can't know about Hydra without being legit, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmkeller (Post 21613580)
storyteller0910:



Do you remember that when Cap went back to 1970 and was in Peggy's office, he saw a picture of himself on Peggy's desk? He realized then that Peggy had lived/was living a life with him in the past - so he fulfilled that past when he refused to return via Pym particles at the end.

Have tons to say on the movie and on the thread, but aside from responding to this point, I'll wait until tomorrow, will have more time for computer-based leisure.

Ah, is that what happened? Captain America knew he went to the past already? I missed that.

Southern Yankee 04-28-2019 12:53 PM

What do you suppose happens to the Red Skull when someone successfully claims the Soul stone?

Miller 04-28-2019 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmkeller (Post 21613580)
Do you remember that when Cap went back to 1970 and was in Peggy's office, he saw a picture of himself on Peggy's desk? He realized then that Peggy had lived/was living a life with him in the past - so he fulfilled that past when he refused to return via Pym particles at the end.

I don't think that's correct. It was a pic of skinny Steve, from before he got the serum. They weren't already together in that timeline; the picture was just showing that Peggy was still carrying a torch for Steve decades after he'd died.

Miller 04-28-2019 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern Yankee (Post 21613602)
What do you suppose happens to the Red Skull when someone successfully claims the Soul stone?

They've announced that they're finally doing a Black Widow movie. Given what happens in Endgame, it seems likely that it's going to be set in the past, but a movie where the Red Skull engineers a way to escape from Soul Stone duty, and Nat somehow hitches a ride back to the world of the living to stop him, would be pretty epic.

kenobi 65 04-28-2019 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller (Post 21613611)
I don't think that's correct. It was a pic of skinny Steve, from before he got the serum. They weren't already together in that timeline; the picture was just showing that Peggy was still carrying a torch for Steve decades after he'd died.

Yup, it's a picture of skinny Steve from the training program at Fort Lehigh.

Equipoise 04-28-2019 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muldoonthief (Post 21613574)
It may indeed be "nothing else", but that's the exact point in previous MCU movies where they put up the simple graphic "Iron Man/The Avengers/Captain America/etc. will return." Heck, it's where they put "Thanos will return" at the end of Infinity War. So maybe a bit of foreshadowing that Iron Man (in some incarnation) will return?

Harley Keener, the kid from Iron Man 3, was at the funeral. Why would they have him there among all those recognizable faces unless he was going to become Important down the line? I feel we'll see him again

Dewey Finn 04-28-2019 02:09 PM

Perhaps. I'm willing to accept that he might attend the funeral just as a friend.

Ike Witt 04-28-2019 02:21 PM

When I first started thinking about how this movie was going to play out, after Infinity War, one of the things I had wanted was a 'movie ending' for Captain America. I wanted him to find a way to be happy with Peggy after saving everyone. That is what I got, almost how I pictured it, with them dancing. A perfect ending to his arc.

It is probably going to take a couple of days for me to digest the rest of the movie.

Mahaloth 04-28-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn (Post 21613673)
Perhaps. I'm willing to accept that he might attend the funeral just as a friend.

I assume they all knew about him to reach out to him? I don't remember Iron Man 3 too well, though I did like it a lot.

Dewey Finn 04-28-2019 02:31 PM

Perhaps someone reached out to him or perhaps he just heard about Tony Stark's death in the newspapers or on TV? Tony Stark was a well-known business owner, and also the events in the movie were, I assume, widely reported.

Alessan 04-28-2019 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21613696)
I assume they all knew about him to reach out to him? I don't remember Iron Man 3 too well, though I did like it a lot.

If Tony knew him, Pepper knew him.

muldoonthief 04-28-2019 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller (Post 21613611)
I don't think that's correct. It was a pic of skinny Steve, from before he got the serum. They weren't already together in that timeline; the picture was just showing that Peggy was still carrying a torch for Steve decades after he'd died.

Yes, it's the exact same picture takes out of Captain's file at the end of the first CA movie, when they're closing down the England SSR facility.

ETA: And remember near the beginning of Winter Soldier, when Steve is talking to aged Peggy, who has had children (as seen in the photos by her bed) but whose husband is apparently already dead. So Steve married to Peggy in the 50s is definitely not part of the Endgame reality.

cmkeller 04-28-2019 02:51 PM

muldoonthief:

Quote:

And remember near the beginning of Winter Soldier, when Steve is talking to aged Peggy, who has had children (as seen in the photos by her bed) but whose husband is apparently already dead. So Steve married to Peggy in the 50s is definitely not part of the Endgame reality.
I figured that Steve knew he had to somehow fake his own death before the point in time that he gets thawed. He knows he can't change the past.

(Even though I'm apparently wrong about the picture.)

bucketybuck 04-28-2019 04:48 PM

My problem with the girl power scene isn't the gratuitousness or the pandering, because lets face it, the whole movie was pandering to a large extent.

My problem was that Captain Marvell can fly through massive spaceships like they are wet paper, so why exactly would she have a problem just flying through a few hundred bad guys? She could fly through them, she could fly over them, she could do whatever she damn well pleased and none of the faceless mooks could do a damn thing about it.

So everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant, which probably wasn't the message they were really going for.

brossa 04-28-2019 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucketybuck (Post 21613865)
My problem with the girl power scene isn't the gratuitousness or the pandering, because lets face it, the whole movie was pandering to a large extent.

My problem was that Captain Marvell can fly through massive spaceships like they are wet paper, so why exactly would she have a problem just flying through a few hundred bad guys? She could fly through them, she could fly over them, she could do whatever she damn well pleased and none of the faceless mooks could do a damn thing about it.

So everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant, which probably wasn't the message they were really going for.

She did just fly through them; it was only Thanos wrecking the portal that stopped her. But Peter Parker didn't know that she would be able to do that, hence his doubtful comment. Probably none of the other returned snappees knew it either. Yes, the girl lineup was gratuitous in the sense that Marvel didn't need their help, but they were still relevant for the other things that they did on the battlefield. Plus, I believe that Shuri, Rescue, and (? someone else?) did combine to knock Thanos down as he was winding up to swat Marvel on her dash.

Marvel didn't need Tony or Cap's help to carry the gauntlet, either, but they aren't irrelevant.

kenobi 65 04-28-2019 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahaloth (Post 21613696)
I assume they all knew about him to reach out to him? I don't remember Iron Man 3 too well, though I did like it a lot.

I would guess that Pepper or Happy, at least, knew how to reach him. I might also guess that Tony left instructions in his will that the young man should be invited to the funeral.

Banquet Bear 04-28-2019 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucketybuck (Post 21613865)
My problem with the girl power scene isn't the gratuitousness or the pandering, because lets face it, the whole movie was pandering to a large extent.

My problem was that Captain Marvell can fly through massive spaceships like they are wet paper, so why exactly would she have a problem just flying through a few hundred bad guys? She could fly through them, she could fly over them, she could do whatever she damn well pleased and none of the faceless mooks could do a damn thing about it.

So everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant, which probably wasn't the message they were really going for.

...my problem with the scene where Captain America said "Avengers....assemble" was that he said it so quietly that nobody heard him. Who did he say that too? Why didn't he say it a bit louder? Why was he asking the Avengers to "assemble", when they had already assembled? And most of the people he was addressing weren't even Avengers. The line was basically irrelevant, and probably wasn't the message they were really going for.

Jack Batty 04-28-2019 06:46 PM

Wow. I think you're leaning way too hard into that criticism.

Cap said it for us, the audience, and we heard him loud and clear. And he said it because that's the Avengers' big, up-front, copyrighted, logo'd tag-line. What did you want him to say, "Charge!"?

Banquet Bear 04-28-2019 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Batty (Post 21614004)
Wow. I think you're leaning way too hard into that criticism.

Cap said it for us, the audience, and we heard him loud and clear. And he said it because that's the Avengers' big, up-front, copyrighted, logo'd tag-line. What did you want him to say, "Charge!"?

...Wow. I think you are leaning way too hard into my sarcastic critique and ignoring the context of the post I was replying too.

The "girl power" scene was a message to a segment of the Marvel fandom that had been ignored for the last 22 movies and 11 years. That segment heard it loud and clear. Thanks for making my point for me.

lawoot 04-28-2019 07:05 PM

Subtext I took for the "Avengers... assemble!" line:

"Today, we are ALL Avengers!"

Morgyn 04-28-2019 07:23 PM

Has there ever been an explanation of why it's necessary for the person wearing the gauntlet to snap their fingers in order to get their wish/command enacted? Seems to me like all you'd have to do is think at them hard enough. And if the snap is necessary, who figured it out, and how? And what would a species without fingers do if they had managed to get the stones together in an appropriate-to-their-physiology article?

Jophiel 04-28-2019 07:40 PM

My thoughts during the Ladies of Marvel Assemble sequence were:
"Is this going to be..."
"Yeah, it sure is. That's a little on the nose"
"Well, I suppose if it was five dudes, I wouldn't even think twice about it"
"Maybe that's the lesson from th---"
"Haha, Mantis ain't doing shit"

I'm pretty sure Mantis just had her one line at the end so she could collect union scale for showing up.

simster 04-28-2019 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenobi 65 (Post 21613922)
I would guess that Pepper or Happy, at least, knew how to reach him. I might also guess that Tony left instructions in his will that the young man should be invited to the funeral.

Fairly certain (in my mind anyway) that he would be IM 2.0

Mosier 04-28-2019 08:18 PM

I had an argument with a friend of mine earlier this week. We both agreed that Infinity War is among the best MCU movies so far, but I was very concerned that they were going to squander that magic in Endgame. My exact argument was, "If they go back in time in order to find a way to punch the problem until it goes away, then it cheapens everything that happened in Infinity War and retroactively makes that movie worse."

He assured me that wasn't going to happen, and that I was just being dramatic.

I really wish I was wrong. What a disappointment this movie was.

Jophiel 04-28-2019 08:28 PM

The time travel plot didn't bother me. For one, I think everyone knew that time travel would be involved. More importantly, I thought it was interesting that they brought back the dead without just rewinding the fight and defeating Thanos in Africa.

Dewey Finn 04-28-2019 08:29 PM

Well, I don't agree that it was a disappointment. And given the scenario at the beginning of the film (Thanos is dead and the stones are gone), no resolution appeared possible without some sort of time-travel magic.

By the way, the beginning of the film, with the trauma of the loss shown in the abandoned houses in San Francisco that Scott Lang passed and the support group that Steve Rogers was leading, reminded me of the HBO series The Leftovers, in which two percent of the world's population disappeared instantly and without explanation. In both stories, the remaining populace is traumatized by the loss. (Although obviously in this case the loss is far greater.)

tracer 04-28-2019 08:29 PM

Okay, I see a huuuuuge gaping plot hole in the resolution of this movie.

Half the Earth's population has been gone for five years. They make a point of showing just how run-down and dilapidated the world has become. You've gotta imagine, at least half the world's infrastructure -- roads, power plants, water services, farms, etc. -- have been shut down or have fallen into disuse, or at the very least have been mothballed.

Then, suddenly, with a snap of Bruce Banner's fingers, everybody who had been gone is instantly brought back. They're not brought back at the point in the past where they were taken away, they're brought back in the present, five years after they left.

And we're shown a world where everything is back to normal the very next day.

Guys? At least half the world's infrastructure has been shut down. There won't be enough of anything essential for all of these people! The half-sized power grid won't handle that sudden surge in demand, the water distribution networks will be taxed to their limits, and neither the farms nor the grocery stores would be able to feed all of them. And there's no way all of that mothballed infrastructure could be brought back up-and-running without weeks, months, or even years of work. The world would be gripped by the very starvation that Thanos wanted to eliminate by removing half the population in the first place!

galen ubal 04-28-2019 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller (Post 21613614)
They've announced that they're finally doing a Black Widow movie. Given what happens in Endgame, it seems likely that it's going to be set in the past, but a movie where the Red Skull engineers a way to escape from Soul Stone duty, and Nat somehow hitches a ride back to the world of the living to stop him, would be pretty epic.

I'm kinda wondering - a sacrifice is required to acquire the Soul stone...but what happens when someone does the reverse? Gives up the Soul stone? Does that, maybe, require a straight swap back? The Soul stone does seem kinda Lawful...
It's certainly an explanation I could bite off, if Natasha returns in present day.

That said, I'd like to see the prequel treatment - maybe we'd find out what happened in Budapest!

squeegee 04-28-2019 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracer (Post 21614099)
Okay, I see a huuuuuge gaping plot hole in the resolution of this movie.

Half the Earth's population has been gone for five years. They make a point of showing just how run-down and dilapidated the world has become. You've gotta imagine, at least half the world's infrastructure -- roads, power plants, water services, farms, etc. -- have been shut down or have fallen into disuse, or at the very least have been mothballed.

Then, suddenly, with a snap of Bruce Banner's fingers, everybody who had been gone is instantly brought back. They're not brought back at the point in the past where they were taken away, they're brought back in the present, five years after they left.

And we're shown a world where everything is back to normal the very next day.

Guys? At least half the world's infrastructure has been shut down. There won't be enough of anything essential for all of these people! The half-sized power grid won't handle that sudden surge in demand, the water distribution networks will be taxed to their limits, and neither the farms nor the grocery stores would be able to feed all of them. And there's no way all of that mothballed infrastructure could be brought back up-and-running without weeks, months, or even years of work. The world would be gripped by the very starvation that Thanos wanted to eliminate by removing half the population in the first place!

Post #8.

HowSoonIsThen 04-28-2019 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracer (Post 21614099)
The world would be gripped by the very starvation that Thanos wanted to eliminate by removing half the population in the first place!

Unless half the population starves, Thanos wins.

Jophiel 04-28-2019 08:42 PM

In regards to famine, Thanos snapped away half of "all living things" which includes stalks of corn and cows and chickens so maybe Stark's counter-snap had us swimming in restored grain and pork.

Seriously though, if I had to accept the lack of catastrophic collapse after the snap, I can brush this off.

alphaboi867 04-28-2019 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shantih (Post 21606939)
...But let's talk about the true shocking development in the movie: no end credits scene! When the movie just ... stopped and the lights went all the way up in the theater where I watched it, everyone was stunned at first and then burst out laughing.

In retrospect it makes sense that there wouldn't be a stinger, but I was really annoyed after sitting thru the entire credits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaoPilot (Post 21608559)
Isn't Far From Home supposed to be set right after Endgame? How will that work? Actually, didn't Peter return to high school at the end of the movie and see Ned there?

Maybe FFH is set before Infinity War and Endgame after all. Wouldn't be the first time filmmakers have lied to keep a secret.

It's either a prequel, or the parents of all Peter's friends decided to let their children go off to Europe by themselves after mourning their deaths for 5 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21611054)
I wonder if the question of the identity of Peggy’s husband is now solved. The MCU has avoided answering that question. So if it was Thawed!Cap, then that makes sense.

ETA : Sad that the star of Avengers and our distinguished poster, Elendil’s Heir did not return. Pretty much everyone else did! :D

I'm really not a fan of the idea of Steve & Peggy being secretly married for decades.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RikWriter (Post 21611977)
I thought it was in Norway.

Me too. It must be really weird for Scandinavians to coexist with Asgardians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Lowry (Post 21612419)
...I'm not expecting Spider-man Far From Home or the rest of the Marvel movies to be like The Leftovers and everyone processing the crazy grief and confusion from these events, but I am curious how it is handled.

I'm guessing if it's address at all it'll be along the lines of the mass amnesia in the War of the Worlds TV series, where world governments remember, but the general public repressed all memory of the Martian invasion in the 50s because it was so traumatic. :dubious:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn (Post 21612849)
Was I the only one who thought the ending would involve a reset back five years prior, and that would mean that Tony Stark's daughter would no longer exist?

I was thinking that would happen, but we'd find out that Pepper Potts is pregnant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by digs (Post 21613553)
The only seat left in town was in a brewpub/theater*. They had a huge amount of staff to run beer and food to your seat, and our head server said "If you need a bathroom break, watch for the Hulk carrying tacos. That's halfway through, and you'll have at least five minutes there."...

Movies of this length is were actual intermissions would come in really handy.

Snarky_Kong 04-28-2019 08:56 PM

Were you thinking all those people would remain dead or that there would be an alternative solution, say Rick and Mortyesque move to another universe in the multiverse?

Fair Rarity 04-28-2019 08:58 PM

Why does only Tony get a big hero funeral? Or at least one during the movie? It felt a little crappy towards Natasha for sacrificing herself and everyone (besides Hulk) is like, "Huh, that's said. But Tony, man. That's a tragedy."

Toxgoddess 04-28-2019 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shantih (Post 21606939)
Going after Thanos and taking brutal revenge on him right at the start, and then giving the surviving characters 5 years to let the consequences of his beating them settle in before Scott Lang provided the kick to giving them hope again was not how I thought they were going to handle it. .

Really, the unsung hero of the whole thing was....the rat crawling over the console in the van that accidentally released Scott from the Quantum Realm. Without that, the remaining Avengers would have sunk further into their respective declines or seclusion and no further action would have beentaken.

tracer 04-28-2019 09:09 PM

Minor nitpick:

When Tony Stark died, why did the arc reactor in his chest suddenly go dark? It's a power source. It should still be glowing regardless.

(Yes, I know the correct answer is "Because that's an easy way to tell the audience that Tony kicked the bucket," but a good cinematographer could make it clear that he died WITH the arc reactor still going, dog gone it!)

icon 04-28-2019 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fair Rarity (Post 21614140)
Why does only Tony get a big hero funeral? Or at least one during the movie? It felt a little crappy towards Natasha for sacrificing herself and everyone (besides Hulk) is like, "Huh, that's said. But Tony, man. That's a tragedy."

There is no question that this was of course because that is the character that started the franchise and also the one seen as the leader of the Avengers; however, we do not know that there was not a Natasaha big hero funeral, just that we do not see it on screen.

One thing that I thought they did well in the film was that they kept all the characters true to who they had been developed in the previous films. Each group that went back to the past acted as they would have in that situation, rather than all becoming uniform in how they dealt with their mission. The characters that were more serious, continued to be so, and the ones more likely to make quips did the same. It made the film feel much more of continuation of all that came before it rather than just a thrown together event.

//i\\

Sunny Daze 04-28-2019 09:38 PM

We liked the scene where everyone took turns carrying the gauntlet. It reminded us of the Play. :D

Quote:

Stanford took a 20–19 lead on a field goal with four seconds left. The Golden Bears used five lateral passes on the ensuing kickoff return to score the winning touchdown and earn a 25–20 victory. Members of the Stanford Band came onto the field midway through the return, believing that the game was over, which added to the confusion and folklore. There remains disagreement over the legality of two of the backward pass attempts,[1][2] adding to the passion surrounding the traditional rivalry of the annual "Big Game."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfebpLfAt8g

Miller 04-28-2019 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracer (Post 21614153)
Minor nitpick:

When Tony Stark died, why did the arc reactor in his chest suddenly go dark? It's a power source. It should still be glowing regardless.

(Yes, I know the correct answer is "Because that's an easy way to tell the audience that Tony kicked the bucket," but a good cinematographer could make it clear that he died WITH the arc reactor still going, dog gone it!)

Tony's always been paranoid about Iron Man tech falling into the wrong hands. So he built a kill-switch into it, so nobody can kill him and steal it out of his corpse.

Mosier 04-28-2019 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunny Daze (Post 21614176)
We liked the scene where everyone took turns carrying the gauntlet. It reminded us of the Play. :D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfebpLfAt8g

I liked that scene too. Reminded me of the best video game trailer of all time.

Jophiel 04-29-2019 12:24 AM

I'd like to see Capt America in the past. Not the boring 40's romance stuff -- I want to know how he re-injected Jane with the Reality Smudge and got away with it.

Jack Batty 04-29-2019 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquet Bear (Post 21614009)
...Wow. I think you are leaning way too hard into my sarcastic critique and ignoring the context of the post I was replying too.

The "girl power" scene was a message to a segment of the Marvel fandom that had been ignored for the last 22 movies and 11 years. That segment heard it loud and clear. Thanks for making my point for me.

I'm glad I helped you make your point - and no I didn't realize you were being sarcastic - but I don't see what your faux critique had to do with the other one.

simster 04-29-2019 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RikWriter (Post 21611437)
He dropped it back in 2013 so Thor could have it.

I think I finally get what you mean here - as I was trying to straighten out aspects of the timeline.

The only thing that seems completely unanswered is Loki. I don't see him 'coming back to go to prison with Thor' in this case.

I'm a bit confused with Thanos' timeline - as for this movie, he jumped forward from a point before he had done the original snap and was then dusted - even with putting the stones back, doesn't that leave the past without a Thanos to look for the stones and set this in motion? I get that by putting the stones back (how did they recreate the teseract or the scepter from just the stones?) that they kept the original timeline in tact - but this seems off. And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....

<head explodes>

GuanoLad 04-29-2019 01:34 AM

Ultimately I think the two snaps that were enacted by the good guys not only brought everyone back into the present day, the second snap that dusted Thanos also papered any space-time continuum anomalies that may arise from that seeming contradiction. I assume the Reality Stone and Time Stone can do that kind of thing in combination. Arguably it could also have brought back Black Widow, but as Bruce had already tried that and failed, there seems to be an extra level of protection around the Soul Stone that won't allow that.

There you go, with handwavium like that all contradictions can be addressed.

Half Man Half Wit 04-29-2019 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simster (Post 21614401)
I think I finally get what you mean here - as I was trying to straighten out aspects of the timeline.

The only thing that seems completely unanswered is Loki. I don't see him 'coming back to go to prison with Thor' in this case.

I'm a bit confused with Thanos' timeline - as for this movie, he jumped forward from a point before he had done the original snap and was then dusted - even with putting the stones back, doesn't that leave the past without a Thanos to look for the stones and set this in motion? I get that by putting the stones back (how did they recreate the teseract or the scepter from just the stones?) that they kept the original timeline in tact - but this seems off. And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....

<head explodes>

Putting the stones back wasn't about keeping the original timeline intact, it was about not dooming the divergent timeline created when they went back in time. The original timeline can't be altered---Banner says as much in the movie---which is why they couldn't go to the past to stop Thanos there, but had to bring the stones forward.

Banquet Bear 04-29-2019 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Batty (Post 21614392)
I'm glad I helped you make your point - and no I didn't realize you were being sarcastic - but I don't see what your faux critique had to do with the other one.

...arguing that "everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant" because Captain Marvel is the most powerful superhero on the planet is like saying that it was irrelevant that women stood in solidarity with Christine Blasey Ford because Ford is tough and strong and why would she need support any way? It missed the entire point of the scene.

And if we are going to make the argument that "everybody in the girl power lineup was basically irrelevant" because Captain Marvel didn't need the help: then the "Avengers...assemble" scene was irrelevant because nobody could hear what Captain America was saying.

But as you point out correctly: the scene isn't for the "characters in the movie." It is for us, in the audience, to pump our fists in the air and yell "FUCK YEAH." People are perfectly happy for the men to have their irrelevant moment: but when women have an "irrelevant moment" people have to find a way that the moment was "wrong." Just let people have their moment already.

bucketybuck 04-29-2019 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquet Bear (Post 21614480)
People are perfectly happy for the men to have their irrelevant moment: but when women have an "irrelevant moment" people have to find a way that the moment was "wrong." Just let people have their moment already.

Yeah, get over yourself. Have your moment and pat yourselves on the back all day long for all I care. My point was pretty clear, I have no problem with a pandering "moment" in a movie full of pandering moments, I just think that it was really badly done which hurts the message it was trying to deliver.

And it would have been so easy to do it better. A sweeping shot across the battlefield showing them all kicking ass would have been good, but if they wanted a lineup shot then why not have them step up beside Scarlet Witch as she faces off with Thanos himself, followed by them all actually putting Thanos on his ass a few times? That would have made far more sense in that it gives them a reason to all be in the same place while also making them look powerful against a credible threat.

Instead they line up to run point for the one person there who absolutely did not need their help. The intent was fine, the execution was poor., but I guess its just women-hating to think that.

bucketybuck 04-29-2019 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simster (Post 21614401)
And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....

I'm hoping that Quills search for the new Gamora ends when he finds out that she got dusted at the same time as Thanos and all his minions, because Stark didn't know that she had switched sides...

Banquet Bear 04-29-2019 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucketybuck (Post 21614498)
Yeah, get over yourself. Have your moment and pat yourselves on the back all day long for all I care. My point was pretty clear, I have no problem with a pandering "moment" in a movie full of pandering moments, I just think that it was really badly done which hurts the message it was trying to deliver.

...yep. You've made your point clear.

Quote:

And it would have been so easy to do it better.
It was perfectly fine as it was.

Quote:

A sweeping shot across the battlefield showing them all kicking ass would have been good, but if they wanted a lineup shot then why not have them step up beside Scarlet Witch as she faces off with Thanos himself, followed by them all actually putting Thanos on his ass a few times? That would have made far more sense in that it gives them a reason to all be in the same place while also making them look powerful against a credible threat.
If you did get a line-up shot with Scarlett Witch you would get the very same complaints: and considering how powerful Scarlett Witch turned out to be I'm pretty sure you would be arguing that a line up in front of SW would be "basically irrelevant" as well.

It makes as much sense as Captain America growling quietly to himself "Avengers Assemble." It makes as much sense as Spidey and Iron Man finding each other on the battlefield and having time to have a heartfelt conversation. It makes as much sense as Peter Quill getting ripped by Gamora in a funny scene as thousands of people were dying around them.

And then we have the meta message. About solidarity. A message that you couldn't get with a "sweeping shot" across the battlefield.


Quote:

Instead they line up to run point for the one person there who absolutely did not need their help.
Of course she needed their help. They were up against fucking Thanos. He had already kicked their asses once. He had already killed 50% of everyone before. It was a fight to the death: and at stake were the lives of millions of people.

Captain Marvel had just gotten the Gauntlet off Spidey. She had to get it away from Thanos, A-Force were there to protect her. And A-Force managed to slow Thanos down: but he threw a "hail mary" and managed to blast Captain Marvel out of the sky, taking her out, meaning that she failed. She lost the gauntlet. Its absurd to claim that Captain Marvel was the one person "who absolutely did not need their help" when it the directors made it clear on screen that Captain Marvel needed their help. If they didn't delay Thanos for the few seconds that they did then maybe he would have been able to catch Marvel instead of having to rely on a ranged attack. And if that had happened, then Tony Stark wouldn't have been close enough to set up the Endgame.

It all fits if you actually watch the movie.

Quote:

The intent was fine, the execution was poor.,
The execution was fine. You just didn't get it. That okay.

Quote:

but I guess its just women-hating to think that.
Those are your words, not mine.

The Other Waldo Pepper 04-29-2019 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Equipoise (Post 21613666)
Harley Keener, the kid from Iron Man 3, was at the funeral. Why would they have him there among all those recognizable faces unless he was going to become Important down the line?

There’s maybe one reason.

Okay, two: just as a callback to Iron Man 3. But that’s also the ‘one’ I have in mind, because, well, how do all the stones get yoinked away from the gauntlet on Thanos and over to the gauntlet on Tony? Was there foreshadowing? Do you feel it came out of nowhere? Should there have been some kind of Chekhov’s Gun? I mean, it maybe would’ve spoiled the scene to hint at it; so, instead, it’ll maybe just let you down in retrospect: they couldn’t play fair, or you would’ve seen it coming.

Except then you see the kid, from the film where it’s practically a running gag that Tony kept working on ‘fly now to my hand’ tech, with little pieces of gear winging their way through the air over to where our hero was calling ‘em to him. Oh, right! That film makes this plot device look more like a fair-play mystery!

AK84 04-29-2019 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphaboi867 (Post 21614134)

I'm really not a fan of the idea of Steve & Peggy being secretly married for decades.

Nothing which suggests that it was a secret. He presumably used an assumed name.
Plus, he is 12 years older than Steve Rogers was back I. ‘45 when he “died”.
People won’t necessarily make the connection beyond “resembles jacked Steve Rogers”.
His Sharon Carter interactions will be awkward though.
Quote:

Originally Posted by muldoonthief (Post 21613703)
Yes, it's the exact same picture takes out of Captain's file at the end of the first CA movie, when they're closing down the England SSR facility.

ETA: And remember near the beginning of Winter Soldier, when Steve is talking to aged Peggy, who has had children (as seen in the photos by her bed) but whose husband is apparently already dead. So Steve married to Peggy in the 50s is definitely not part of the Endgame reality.

In films and in the Agent Carter series, the identity and picture of her husband is never revealed. It was one of the lingering questions in the series. And it was not definitively answered, before it ended.
The show was cancelled in early 2016, right after the storylines for what became Infiniti War & Endgame were written.
I presume it’s not a coincidence.

Jophiel 04-29-2019 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquet Bear (Post 21614532)
The execution was fine. You just didn't get it. That okay.

Oh, please :rolleyes: I thought the scene was fine but there weren't a hundred nuanced layers to unravel and examine -- either it worked for a viewer or it didn't. People who didn't care for it weren't failing to "get it" because there was very little to get. It just didn't work for them.

Banquet Bear 04-29-2019 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jophiel (Post 21614728)
Oh, please :rolleyes: I thought the scene was fine but there weren't a hundred nuanced layers to unravel and examine -- either it worked for a viewer or it didn't. People who didn't care for it weren't failing to "get it" because there was very little to get. It just didn't work for them.

...Oh, please :rolleyes: bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.

Jophiel 04-29-2019 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquet Bear (Post 21614764)
bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.

No, it shows that (as mentioned many times previously) Captain Marvel has fluctuating Plot Power where she can face-smash her way through an entire starship one second and get stopped by a couple mooks the next. It wasn't a question of "Could she have done it?", it was "Let's frame this so we can show these women doing stuff as a team".

He understood that perfectly well.

cmkeller 04-29-2019 10:47 AM

simster:

Quote:

I'm a bit confused with Thanos' timeline - as for this movie, he jumped forward from a point before he had done the original snap and was then dusted - even with putting the stones back, doesn't that leave the past without a Thanos to look for the stones and set this in motion? I get that by putting the stones back (how did they recreate the teseract or the scepter from just the stones?) that they kept the original timeline in tact - but this seems off. And I'm fine with that giving us a 'new' Gamora - which seems to imply that there should not be a Thanos .... or a Gamora to get captured with Quale....
This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony's snap did not kill the people who were "dusted", but rather, that "dusting" was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes.

I don't understand why so many people think Gamora is back. I thought that the last scene with the Guardians, which has Quill looking at a screen that is searching for Gamora and not finding her, was a clear indication that she was dusted with everyone else Thanos brought from 2014 (whatever the dusting meant - if my explanation is correct, than that works out well).

XT 04-29-2019 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquet Bear (Post 21614764)
...Oh, please :rolleyes: bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.

She shouldn't have needed help. Nor should Thor for that matter, though we are talking about fat Thor so maybe he would. But this was a non-buffed up Thanos...he hadn't even gotten one of the gems yet when the fight started. The whole reason he became so ridiculous later on was he gained power every time he put another stone in the gauntlet.

I thought the scene was fine, but if I was of a nitpicking mindset I could see how the power fluctuated a lot depending on what they wanted to show. It made no actual, logical sense if your suspension of disbelief was broken. Mine actually did break several times, and it was yammering at me during this final fight scene quite a bit, though I was able to tell it to shut up while I watched and enjoyed. If I watch it again, I'll probably be in full pick the movie apart mode, since that's just the way my mind works.

Jophiel 04-29-2019 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmkeller (Post 21614837)
I don't understand why so many people think Gamora is back.

Pragmatically, because there's going to be a GotG 3 and I doubt that they're writing off one of the main characters. Especially because the whole core concept of GotG is them being a family and Gamora fills the hard-suffering mother role.

Back to a previous point, I would assume that Banner wished for the missing people to be safely returned which would preclude anyone reforming 30,000 feet in the sky or in front of a moving truck.

brossa 04-29-2019 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jophiel (Post 21614796)
No, it shows that (as mentioned many times previously) Captain Marvel has fluctuating Plot Power where she can face-smash her way through an entire starship one second and get stopped by a couple mooks the next. It wasn't a question of "Could she have done it?", it was "Let's frame this so we can show these women doing stuff as a team".

He understood that perfectly well.

Marvel didn't get stopped by anything that anybody did to her. She got stopped by Thanos wrecking the portal before she could throw the gauntlet into it. I guess I am only disagreeing with the implication that she got stopped by some mooks.

If Peter Parker had said "How's she going to get it to the portal before they wreck it" and the female heroes all say "she'll have help", does that negate all of the objections?

MaxTheVool 04-29-2019 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banquet Bear (Post 21614764)
...Oh, please :rolleyes: bucketybuck claimed the scene didn't work because Captain Marvel absolutely didn't need help, when the fact that Captain Marvel failed to escape with the gauntlet shows she needed all the help she could get. That shows that bucketybuck didn't get what happened.

My problem with the scene is not that we got a fist pumping moment of specifically female awesomeness (which could super-easily have been achieved in various other ways) or even a fist pumping moment of specifically female working-together awesomeness (probably somewhat tougher to organically write into the middle of a huge battle, particularly if you want them all to be working together as one unit); it's that it's logistically so ridiculous that it did (and continues to do so) take me somewhat out of the movie.

So... there's this huge battle, with lots of fog of war and confusion. At one moment on one place on the huge battlefield there is (ignoring the question of whether Captain Marvel should need help or not) a need for help. And, instantaneously, every single female hero from all over the battlefield, wherever they had been, whatever they had been doing, whoever they had been fighting; and NONE of the male heroes, no matter how near-by; all arrive in exactly the same place at exactly the same time to provide that help?

It's just silly. And yes, other silly things happen. For instance, the "characters always have time to have a heartfelt conversation and/or quips, even in the middle of an intense battle" cliche. I suppose that I've grown desensitized to them, because they're so much part of the language of blockbuster action moviemaking. Whereas the "all the women from all across the battlefield, despite working happily with their male counterparts before and after this one moment, suddenly work together for one single gender-segregated mission" trope is not yet particularly common.

Would I have objected just as much if it had been men? Hard to say, it's literally never happened... at least with a cast of this scale, with as many individual bad-ass male AND female characters, such that a sudden assembling of all the bad-ass male characters and specifically none of the bad-ass female characters would be so noticeable. (Obviously there have been plenty of movies in the past with tons of bad-ass male characters and NO bad-ass female characters, but that's not really a meaningful comparison.)


To repeat myself from earlier:
As for the women-team-up scene, after a few hours of pondering, I've realized how I would do it, which would also solve another minor problem, which is that Thanos's chief minions, who were quite serious mini-bosses in their own right last movie, barely registered.

So one of the (male) minions is fighting one of the female good guys. They trade blows, then he gets the upper hand, and makes a derisive sexist comment, calling her a little girl, or something. Then we do a series of camera cuts all around the battlefield as triumphant music plays, showing all the female heroes kicking ass, ending back at the initial fight, and she responds with a one liner like "I'm not a girl, I'm a woman" (but more funny) and dodges his death blow and chops his ass in half.

Same general celebratory effect, makes way more sense.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.