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-   -   Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525685)

Aspidistra 08-03-2009 12:51 AM

I have heard people (UK and Oz) say DI-ag-nul-lee, with a slight emphasis on the first syllable. But never, as you wrote it, with the third syllable emphasized as well. That's just wierd.

waynemcdougall 08-03-2009 04:15 AM

Ok, this is personal, but arguably about a creative work.

On my wedding night my wife gives me a present. Oh noes, think I. Nobody told me that you're supposed to exchange gifts. I've got nothing. So I apologise, and this is all right. I unwrap....the present, you perverts - and it's a large photograph. She'd got a large print of a photograph I'd taken of two swans swimming on a lake we visited while courting. Very nice, I say.

After our honeymoon I'm instructed to hang the photo over our bed, and I do as I am told.

Fast forward 15 years, and we have children. The oldest asks what this photo is about. I explained where it was taken, and how it's a nice photo of swans, and Daddy took it, and Mummy gave it as a special present when we got married.

"You've forgotten the most important bit!" shrieks my wife.

"Uh, what bit's that?" I ask eloquently.

"The bit about how swans mate for life, and that symbolism that explains why I gave it to you on the day we got married. Why do you think I made you hang it over our bed? You couldn't think I was just giving you a photo of swans???"

"Well no.....not NOW darling....."

She proceeds to explain how every day, in every way, I just show how much truly thicker I am than she had thought. :-(

The Stafford Cripps 08-03-2009 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourDeer (Post 11404705)
Scifisam2009 and G. Odoreida both objected to my attempted explanation for why Eleanorigby didn’t get the Diagon Alley joke. Where, they ask, did I get that notion of a British version of “diagonally”?

From a televised interview with J.K. Rowling, actually; that is (VERY approximately) how she pronounced it, I thought. I assumed it was typical; perhaps she was just using that emphasis to make the joke work.

I haven't seen that and I don't know what her reasons for saying it like that were, but DIaGONally isn't the way British people pronounce the word. Anyway, doesn't it spoil the joke by burying the 'a' of 'ally'?

KneadToKnow 08-03-2009 07:54 AM

It wasn't until Ang Lee's Hulk film came out that I made the Bruce Banner/Betty Ross connection.

(In case you're having the same trouble I had for 30+ years: Banner = Flag. Betty = Betsy.)

Annie-Xmas 08-03-2009 08:13 AM

There was a thread looking for famous people whose names matched their jobs. Someone posted "It's too bad Jeremy Irons isn't known for playing golf." and somoene responded "Too bad there isn't a famous golfer with the last name of Woods.":smack:

And I'll post that infamous sign from the Simpsons so someone can ask for an explanation:

Sneed's Feed and Seed
(formerly Chuck's)

PunditLisa 08-03-2009 08:25 AM

A few months ago I heard Lindsey Buckingham sing "Tusk" solo. After he sang "Tusk!" he belted out "Aye-yeeh!" in a high pitched voice. I thought it was funky and kind of odd. Later I listened to the original version by Fleetwood Mac and, sure enough, the "aye-yeeh!" part was in there. In all those years I'd never heard it before. Now I can't listen to it without belting out, "Aye-yeeh!"

I never realized that the "Village People" were flamboyantly gay or that the song "YMCA" was homoerotic until college. In my defense, I wasn't familiar with Greenwich Village so that clue was lost on me.

I also didn't connect "Queen" (the rock group) with "queens" a la gay men until around the same time. College was a real eye opening experience for me.

Baal Houtham 08-03-2009 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittenblue (Post 11403721)
Sigh. You do realize the books are written for children, right? I know they've been around a while, and maybe you grew up with them, but they were not written for Latin scholars. And remember, she was a beginning author when she wrote the first one...total amateur. And magic doesn't exist, so each author can make up their own rules on how it works.

Okay...rant over....

People often seem to expect too much from the Harry Potter books. The first time I encountered this, the posters (on another board) were discussing the ultimate resolution of the series, and the clues you could find that supported their theories.

This was after the third book.

My reaction was... uhh, you're seeing a story arc that just doesn't exist. The books are well done juvenile mysteries centered around a boarding school, and dressed up with magic, puns and child abuse. Maybe Rowlings got more grandiose notions as the series advanced, but I'd be amazed if she was aiming for profundity from the very beginning.

Maybe people expect too much from any popular series of books, comics or TV shows.

Lamia 08-03-2009 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos (Post 11404378)
Even if there were no such thing as homosexuality, a dandelion is still a kind of flower, and flowers are the sort of thing that are associated with not being fierce.

That's largely because they're strongly associated with (supposedly) non-fierce people like women and gay men.
Quote:

Unless you can come up with any examples of the Lion being actually, you know, attracted to other males, I don't think there's really a strong case for him being gay.
A Production Code Era film could not have a male character openly attracted to other males, especially not if this character was one of the heroes. Within the restrictions of the Code, the Lion is about as gay as he could be. I'm not saying he's a realistic depiction of a gay man, he's extremely stereotyped, but this was 30 years pre-Stonewall.

Jimmy Joe Meager 08-03-2009 12:28 PM

In the movie version of Gone With the Wind, carefully watch the scene between Rhett and Belle where Belle’s talking about her son. There are unspoken acknowledgements, glances, a nod, a flicker of a smile… Rhett is the father!!

I swear! If you have it on disc watch it again and see if you agree.

bri1600bv 08-03-2009 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RealityChuck (Post 11372825)
Didn't they specifically mention that in the book? I remember it in the movie.

Rosemary's baby?

I still don't get what you're saying.

There was someone named Rose and it was really mary's baby?

Freudian Slit 08-03-2009 01:48 PM

This is turning into an Abbot and Costello routine.

Mary was the mother of Christ.

Rosemary is the mother of the anti-Christ. It just sounds cool. Cooler than, say, Nancy's Baby or Susan's Baby or Peggy's Baby.

ajdebosco 08-03-2009 01:55 PM

I never realized the great pizza argument between Kramer and Poppi was actually about abortion; that is too clever, (except for the writers, of course)

I recall seeing a post-apocalyptic Springfield filled with smoldering craters, etc. when Homer said "Hmm, I smell bar-b-q..." and Lisa shrieks "No dad, don't go down there.." Homer walks down the crevice stair anyway, and from the depths you hear "OH NOOOO! Soyburgers and german potato salad." The Dante's Divine Comedy thing excaped me completely until I saw it again.

I couldn't believe the Marx Brothers were actually kin until I had been watching them for years, I mean how could an Eye-talian, a mute, and that guy with the greasepaint be related to that stiff straight man?

ajdebosco 08-03-2009 02:00 PM

Niagra Falls!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit (Post 11406446)
This is turning into an Abbot and Costello routine.

....


Not everyone has an excellent command of the obvious, I know I don't as frequently as I should.:smack:

I remember arguing about the team in the famous "Slowly I turned....." bit, and it turns out we were all correct. Everyone from vaudevillians to Lucy and Ricky, the Three Stooges, Abbot & Costello, etc. even Bugs Bunny had fun with this one.

Freudian Slit 08-03-2009 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajdebosco (Post 11406505)
Not everyone has an excellent command of the obvious, I know I don't as frequently as I should.:smack:

No, it's just that so many people have asked about it. Really, there's nothing to get. Rosemary has "Mary" in it. Nothing else to see here.

Nobody 08-03-2009 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynemcdougall (Post 11404979)
"You've forgotten the most important bit!" shrieks my wife.

"Uh, what bit's that?" I ask eloquently.

"The bit about how swans mate for life, and that symbolism that explains why I gave it to you on the day we got married. Why do you think I made you hang it over our bed? You couldn't think I was just giving you a photo of swans???"

"Well no.....not NOW darling....."

She proceeds to explain how every day, in every way, I just show how much truly thicker I am than she had thought. :-(

Swans mating for life is a piece of trivia. If you sampled your average person on the street, I'm sure most people wouldn't know it. I know I didn't until this post. Also, I hope you're being a little sarcastic about her reaction and what she said. :eek:


OK, I thought of another one for myself. When the Hall and Oates song "One on One" came out 9 years old or so. For many years when I heard it I didn't know it was a song about sex. I feel embarrassed about what I thought it meant, but at least I have the excuse that it went over my head because I was a kid.

Wheelz 08-03-2009 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss (Post 11388108)
Oh, c'mon. "Making love in the green grass, behind the stadium with you..." You don't have to be Fellini to get the symbolism. :D

Sorry to drag the Brown-Eyed Girl thing back in... but in addition to this line, I'm shocked nobody's yet pointed out the lyrics "Down in the hollow / Playin' a new game," and "Going down the old mine..."

Not that I'm entirely convinced Van intended to write a tribute to the back door, but it does make one stop and think.

TBG 08-03-2009 04:42 PM

The Cowardly Lion may seem gay now, but how many of those "clues" would've really been such back in the time period of the movie? IMO, he was just a wimpy buffoon type, sorta like how Joe Besser was in the later 3 Stooges shorts. (Or was Besser playing gay too?)

EricJSmith 08-03-2009 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus, Incus, Stapes! (Post 11404252)
Isaac was Esau's dad. Jacob was the twin brother.

I stand corrected.

Sefton 08-03-2009 05:25 PM

Toward the end of the song Only the Lonely by The Motels, the singer's voice moans and quickly rises in pitch: "Only the looonely...Only the lonelyyyy!...can...play..."

Since the song is about meaningless sex, she's demonstrating (simulating?) an orgasm. And the low, slow ending signifies the pointlessness of it all. Huh.

Don Draper 08-03-2009 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBG (Post 11407216)
The Cowardly Lion may seem gay now, but how many of those "clues" would've really been such back in the time period of the movie? IMO, he was just a wimpy buffoon type, sorta like how Joe Besser was in the later 3 Stooges shorts. (Or was Besser playing gay too?)

Well it's not like gay stereotypes were made up in the few years before Stonewall. Read Vito Russo's book the Celluloid Closet. It details the explicit connection (in popular movies at least) the connection between 'gays' and 'sissies' in the black & white era. It also specifically points out the Cowardly Lion as an example of a 'sissy' stand-in for a gay character.

SciFiSam 08-03-2009 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. Odoreida (Post 11405004)
I haven't seen that and I don't know what her reasons for saying it like that were, but DIaGONally isn't the way British people pronounce the word. Anyway, doesn't it spoil the joke by burying the 'a' of 'ally'?

Perhaps Rowling has an idiosyncratic way of saying diagonally. I guess it's easy enough to hear her say it like that and assume she's representative of her accent (if she did say it like that, of course).

Jerseyman 08-03-2009 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBG (Post 11407216)
The Cowardly Lion may seem gay now, but how many of those "clues" would've really been such back in the time period of the movie? IMO, he was just a wimpy buffoon type, sorta like how Joe Besser was in the later 3 Stooges shorts. (Or was Besser playing gay too?)

The emphasis is different. It's not just the film either, the book dates from 40 or 50 years before when - now I think of it - Oscar Wilde would have been still a notorious case. (BTW the chief prosecutor against him was later the main reason for the partition of Ireland leading to the civil war and all the Troubles of later times - maybe a connection that Constance Wilde was well known in Fenian independence circles).

It would be taken for granted that 'unmanly' in some ways was 'unmanly' (and undesirable) in all ways. 'Dandy' is another clue because it's a man paying too much 'effeminate' attention to clothes, as Wilde's 'Aesthetes' did ("Stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni: Yankeedoodle dandy", Macaroni being an earlier version of the species who met in a London club where they served the stuff).

They would have looked at it that if was unmanly he must be gay and if he was gay he must be unmanly. It's something that concerns me because I feel that for a time that assumption was broken (after all some gays are übermacho SM types) but now gay activists have inadvertently helped to restore it, so if boys don't act tough enough 'everybody knows' they'll grow up gay and they get little chance to find out otherwise.

In return, seeing it that way, I guess it's where Friend of Dorothy meaning gay comes from as well.

Chronos 08-03-2009 06:21 PM

Quote:

In return, seeing it that way, I guess it's where Friend of Dorothy meaning gay comes from as well.
I thought that was just because Judy Garland was particularly sympathetic and helpful to the gay cause.

NDP 08-03-2009 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sefton (Post 11407383)
Toward the end of the song Only the Lonely by The Motels, the singer's voice moans and quickly rises in pitch: "Only the looonely...Only the lonelyyyy!...can...play..."

Since the song is about meaningless sex, she's demonstrating (simulating?) an orgasm. And the low, slow ending signifies the pointlessness of it all. Huh.

Actually, I thought the vocal part at the end was a homage to Roy Orbison's similarly-titled-but-different song, "Only the Lonely." Still, we could be both right.

Jerseyman 08-03-2009 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scifisam2009 (Post 11407461)
Perhaps Rowling has an idiosyncratic way of saying diagonally. I guess it's easy enough to hear her say it like that and assume she's representative of her accent (if she did say it like that, of course).

I haven't heard her speak and positively refuse to read Herbert Potty. When I read fun magical children's stories they are Eoin (pronounced Owen) Coulter's Artemis Fowle series and of course Philip Pullman. However, having looked her up, she grew up in a village int the west of England and they do speak slower and pronounce all their syllables round that way. Most people would not pronounce the O (and I would probably reduce the I to a Y or very short) but the western accent is more likely to put a short 'null vowel' in there, like in agony. In fact they often put null vowels in where there's none at all: two consonants together bain't to thoirr a-loikin'.

It's no accident that a lot of sailors and pirates came from the coast of that region where that accent is stronger and they speak so slow that in days when long-distance calls were expensive, I could count the cost of every syllable. Bristol was the major port there in the slave trade though Liverpool replaced it. Bristol (Brissl) has its own variant (noted for sticking L on the end of words - the city's original name was Bristow) but it does have something in common with some of the older Southern American accents.

A lot of the Jamestown settlers and later white slaves transported after the failed rebellion of 1685 came from slightly further south with that kind of accent - and unfortunately brought malaria with them.

There's a distinction too between an older pronunciation with 'Dye' and a later European-influenced one of 'Dee' (mine).

SciFiSam 08-03-2009 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman (Post 11407631)
I haven't heard her speak and positively refuse to read Herbert Potty. When I read fun magical children's stories they are Eoin (pronounced Owen) Coulter's Artemis Fowle series and of course Philip Pullman. However, having looked her up, she grew up in a village int the west of England and they do speak slower and pronounce all their syllables round that way. Most people would not pronounce the O (and I would probably reduce the I to a Y or very short) but the western accent is more likely to put a short 'null vowel' in there, like in agony. In fact they often put null vowels in where there's none at all: two consonants together bain't to thoirr a-loikin'.

It's no accident that a lot of sailors and pirates came from the coast of that region where that accent is stronger and they speak so slow that in days when long-distance calls were expensive, I could count the cost of every syllable. Bristol was the major port there in the slave trade though Liverpool replaced it. Bristol (Brissl) has its own variant (noted for sticking L on the end of words - the city's original name was Bristow) but it does have something in common with some of the older Southern American accents.

A lot of the Jamestown settlers and later white slaves transported after the failed rebellion of 1685 came from slightly further south with that kind of accent - and unfortunately brought malaria with them.

There's a distinction too between an older pronunciation with 'Dye' and a later European-influenced one of 'Dee' (mine).

I just listened to a different interview with Rowling, and she has a modern RP accent. RP accents do not pronounce diagonally as DI-a-GON-ally. She could still have an idiosyncratic pronunciation of some words, though. It happens.

Eoin Colfer, btw, not Coulter. That's an amusing mistake. (And it's Fowl, not Fowle).

An aside - in the above interview, a kid asks 'what house would you put Gordon Brown and David Cameron in?' and Rowling's answer is very cleverly apolitical.

santiago42 08-04-2009 12:03 AM

I read Frank Cho's Liberty Meadows comic strip for a number of years, and one of the characters is a dachsund named Oscar. Recently my nephew mentioned a friend's new dachsund who they "obviously" named Oscar. I made the mistake of asking "Why Oscar?" and lost all my cool uncle street cred in a heartbeat.

I also remember being a fan of the Village People to the point I had a poster of them on my wall for a number of years. In my defense, I was still in elementary school during the their heyday.

Marley23 08-04-2009 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koxinga (Post 11391754)
Two characters who exhibit an older brother-younger brother relationship, calling each other the exact terms used in Chinese to describe such a relationship, gives me an inkling that Beckett may have picked up a dictionary or asked a Chinese friend about those words at some point in writing the play.

Nothing personal, but unless someone can find a cite, I'm just not going to buy this. Older brother/young brother doesn't strike me as a good summary of Vladimir and Estragon's relationship. Given that nobody in the audience would have understood this I find myself doubting that Beckett would have bothered. Why would he choose Mandarin, and how would he have done it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linty Fresh (Post 11399112)
In the opening sequence to Watchmen, we see a bunch of stylized scenes establishing the heroes' characters. Among them is a scene of a bomber with Sally Jupiter's portrait on the side. It was our third time watching that scene before my wife realized that the bomber was returning from dropping the A-bomb on Japan.

Maybe this isn't obvious, but I noticed it the last time I read Watchmen and I thought it was a great detail. When Laurie and Dr. Manhattan return to Earth, they're confronted with overwhelming carnage in the streets. Laying in the middle of it all is a page torn from a magazine. It's an ad for the Veidt Method, and the text reads "I will give you bodies beyond your wildest imaginings."

Freudian Slit 08-04-2009 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sefton (Post 11407383)
Toward the end of the song Only the Lonely by The Motels, the singer's voice moans and quickly rises in pitch: "Only the looonely...Only the lonelyyyy!...can...play..."

Since the song is about meaningless sex, she's demonstrating (simulating?) an orgasm. And the low, slow ending signifies the pointlessness of it all. Huh.

I don't know. It doesn't sound anything like a faked orgasm to me. And I don't see how the slow ending makes it sound pointless.

bengangmo 08-04-2009 01:56 AM

Yay, bravo for you -
Quote:

Originally Posted by jefahrbach (Post 11401486)
I agree. It was just too obvious that all she did was look at Latin translations of words and at mythology to name characters, places, and spells. It often disappointed me how easily decipherable they were.

I mean: Sirius ("Dog Star") Black can turn into a black dog, Sibyll (the Sibyls were prophets of mythology) Trelawney is a divination teacher and sometimes prophet herself, Gregory Goyle (as in "gargoyle") was also an ugly, monstrous protector, the Malfoys (Latin "maleficus" means "evil-doer") are an all around bad family, Gilderoy Lockhart ("gilded" as in covered in thin gold foil) hides a rotten inside with a handsome exterior, and Remus (from Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome who were suckled by a wolf as children) Lupin ("Lupus" is Latin for "wolf") is *shock* a werewolf. (Which I agree, he was lucky to be named that since years later he gets bitten by a werewolf and becomes one himself. One could say he should have seen it coming.)

The different houses don't need much thought either: Gryffindor's symbol is a lion but a "griffin" is a mythological creature half eagle and half lion, Ravenclaw's eagle symbol is self explanatory with the bird references ("raven", "claw"), Hufflepuff with its badger I always took to be the sound of that badger foraging ("huff" "puff" sound of breath in the dirt), and Slytherin only makes sense to be a "slithering" snake.

But especially the spells are like a slap in the face to one's intelligence. They all are merely the Latin translation of what the spell's effect is: "Lumos" means "light" and causes a light to appear, "Nox" means "darkness" and extinguishes that light, "Crucio" means "to torture" and is a curse that causes extreme pain, "Imperio" means "to command" and is a curse which puts someone under another's control, "Accio" means "to summon" and is a summoning charm, "Expelliarmus" means "to expel" (expello) "weapon" (arma), and so on and so forth.

I liked the books, but there really wasn't much mystery to all of this even the first time I read them. I hope that with this extensive response to the Harry Potter thread on this post, this one can be laid to rest, unlike the Audi, Rosemary's Baby, and "Brown-Eyed Girl" threads.;) If anyone is more interested, I recommend looking at "The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter" by David Colbert.

Yeah its all patently obvious to you - but like how old are you with a tertiary education? The books are aimed at "tweens right? When I was around 10 or 12 it would have been cool to realise these sorts of links - and I'm guessing only the "better" vocabularies would make the link. And further - why not make the spells easy to decipher?

Zoe 08-04-2009 04:06 AM

I don't think the nicknames in Waiting for Godot were just coincidental. I can't imagine the playwright being so careless or casual in choosing. And we already know that "Godot" was a significant choice.

Quote:

Lamia: A Production Code Era film could not have a male character openly attracted to other males, especially not if this character was one of the heroes.
True. Not openly. But take a second look at the relationship between the two men in Gilda. Nothing is spelled out. There is just a little erotic tension. It took many viewings and a question from a friend before I could see it.

Miracle on 34th Street:

Quote:

Cliffy: Doris needing to prove to Fred that she wasn't a wrinkled up prune
Maureen O'Hara, the actress who played the role in the 1942 version, is still alive and kicking and quite a plum!

Quote:

Sauron: I always wondered why Macy's would be selling x-ray machines.
I don't know if this is still true, but merchants at that time could purchase just about anything wholesale -- even if you were not in a business that usually sold that product.

The judge in the 1942 version was Gene Lockhart, the father of actress June Lockhart. He wrote a song that was popular during the Depression called "The World Is Waiting for the Sunrise." It was rerecorded and repopularized by Les Paul and Mary Ford in about the early 1950s.

Quote:

Hippy Hollow: I was listening to a BBC documentary about the history of recorded music, where the commentator remarked that most songs are in the 3-4 minute range because that's as much that would fit on a 45...
This sounds reasonable, but as best I remember, the popular songs that were recorded on 78s were also about that long. And I do remember that by the mid-1950s, there were 45s that had two songs on one side and two on the flip side. The were considered as sort of short "albums."

rowrrbazzle, loved the information about the music in West Side Story. The older I get, the more I appreciate that particular musical. I was told that some famous building -- the Kennedy Center or the Met -- is located where they shot the final fight scene. What is a shofar? (And don't tell me it's a man who drives rich Southern women to the spa. I know better.)

Finally, the man who played the Tin Man. Jack Haley, was it? I read not too long ago that when he was growing up it was just a very short distance from the factory that makes all those little heart-shaped Valentine candies with things written on them. "If I only had a heart..."

hammos1 08-04-2009 07:06 AM

It's been a while since I've seen any of the Harry Potter films, but don't the characters say 'Diagon Alley' as if it really were a street name- i.e. not with the same emphasis as the word 'diagonally'? If so, then the simplest explanation is that when Rowling said 'DI-a-GON ALL-ey' in the interview, she was referring to the street. (I'm aware this largely depends on how you choose to pronounce the nonsense word 'Diagon'- but pronouncing it this way at least matches with similar-looking words like 'hexagon')

There's no doubt in my mind that the 'A' in Audi's line up of cars is there because it's the first letter of the manufacturer. I don't think it's anything to do with aluminium. Those who believe it is are invited to explain why Citroen's range of cars comprises the C1, C2, C3, C4 etc., what Ferrari were thinking of when they released the F355, the F460, and so on.

Astroboy14 08-04-2009 10:39 AM

I'd heard the Beatle's song "Girl" thousands of times before I realized that in the background they are singing "tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit" over and over... :smack:

gigi 08-04-2009 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobody (Post 11406872)
OK, I thought of another one for myself. When the Hall and Oates song "One on One" came out 9 years old or so. For many years when I heard it I didn't know it was a song about sex.

It's not about a backyard basketball match between two friends??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astroboy14 (Post 11409401)
I'd heard the Beatle's song "Girl" thousands of times before I realized that in the background they are singing "tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit" over and over... :smack:

Do they really sing "Baby you're a rich fag Jew" to Brian Epstein in "Baby You're a Rich Man"?

Hazle Weatherfield 08-04-2009 10:50 AM

Unbelievably late in life, I realized that "Twinkle, twinkle..." and "ABC..." had the same melody. I think a comedian brought this to light for me. I had just never really thought about it. Dumb ass!

Marley23 08-04-2009 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoe (Post 11408856)
I don't think the nicknames in Waiting for Godot were just coincidental. I can't imagine the playwright being so careless or casual in choosing.

There's quite a bit of room between "careless" and "deliberately chose names that could be shortened into arguably meaningful words in a language neither the playwright nor his audience spoke."

Quote:

And we already know that "Godot" was a significant choice.
Beckett seemed to offer different explanations for that all the time.

BiblioCat 08-04-2009 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazle Weatherfield (Post 11409434)
Unbelievably late in life, I realized that "Twinkle, twinkle..." and "ABC..." had the same melody. I think a comedian brought this to light for me. I had just never really thought about it. Dumb ass!

"Baa Baa Black Sheep", too.

eleanorigby 08-04-2009 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman (Post 11407541)
It would be taken for granted that 'unmanly' in some ways was 'unmanly' (and undesirable) in all ways. 'Dandy' is another clue because it's a man paying too much 'effeminate' attention to clothes, as Wilde's 'Aesthetes' did ("Stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni: Yankeedoodle dandy", Macaroni being an earlier version of the species who met in a London club where they served the stuff).


Um, no. I'm with you on the Cowardly Lion (inasmuch as it matters that he's gay at all), but you are wrong re Macaronis. (And you're wrong re Dandies as well, but I'll let that one go--the article explains both). :)

CallitMacaroni

Which explains why Yankee Doodle Dandy sticks a feather in his cap and calls it macaroni....

KneadToKnow 08-04-2009 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazle Weatherfield (Post 11409434)
Unbelievably late in life, I realized that "Twinkle, twinkle..." and "ABC..." had the same melody. I think a comedian brought this to light for me. I had just never really thought about it. Dumb ass!

:smack:

"The Alphabet Song" is what I've always called it.

I'm sitting here trying to make the Jackson 5 song "ABC" have the same melody as "Twinkle, Twinkle."

:smack: again

eleanorigby 08-04-2009 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KneadToKnow (Post 11409518)
:smack:

"The Alphabet Song" is what I've always called it.

I'm sitting here trying to make the Jackson 5 song "ABC" have the same melody as "Twinkle, Twinkle."

:smack: again

Pssst... I did the same thing. I know it as the alphabet song too.

jjimm 08-04-2009 11:18 AM

I speak in an English "RP" accent and I pronounce "diagonally":

dye-AG-ən-əl-ee

"Diagon Alley" would be pronounced

dye-AG-ən AL-ee

But it's close enough for the pun to be recognised. I got it after a few pages.

That said, for those of you who are criticising the unsophisticated names and spell words in HP, can I just remind you that even though adults read them, these are and always have been kids' books - and that the level of sophistication in these words seems about perfect to excite curiosity, research, and discovery in the 8-14 agegroup.

Koxinga 08-04-2009 11:30 AM

After discovering and enjoying just about any Lou Reed or David Bowie song, sooner or later I figure out it's about heroin.

And of course there was this 80s song, which seemed to be about a horse of an albino complexion.

Anne Neville 08-04-2009 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreacherousCretin (Post 11399790)
It bothers me that the Pleiades are commonly called "The Seven Sisters" (in the western hemisphere, anyway) but my Subaru's logo has only six stars.

.

Different people see different numbers of stars there.

Astroboy14 08-04-2009 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigi (Post 11409425)
Do they really sing "Baby you're a rich fag Jew" to Brian Epstein in "Baby You're a Rich Man"?

No idea... I've never heard that!

Marley23 08-04-2009 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigi (Post 11409425)
Do they really sing "Baby you're a rich fag Jew" to Brian Epstein in "Baby You're a Rich Man"?

No.

Exapno Mapcase 08-04-2009 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marley23 (Post 11409709)
No.

There are several different stories told about this:
In some, the line made the recording.
Quote:

•Bob Spitz's biography The Beatles cites several sources claiming that, at the end of this song, John Lennon sings "Baby, you're a rich fag Jew," a reference to band manager Brian Epstein, who was Jewish and a closeted homosexual. (That he was rich should be obvious.) Although the evidence for this slur is all anecdotal, John can be heard bearing down hard on the title phrase during the fade-out, exactly as he would do if engaging in such an insult.
Other accounts have him singing the line on a demo or during a session when Epstein was visiting. Mostly because that's the kind of guy John was. In these accounts it's not in the final song and was never released.

A simple no doesn't work for this. There's testimony that he said it at some point and it's exactly the sort of thing Lennon would do as a private jab. I can't believe he would let it reach public years, not as early as 1967 when their images were still important and I don't hear it in the final lines even listening carefully. In private - sure.

Electric Warrior 08-04-2009 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marley23 (Post 11409709)
No.

Especially because the Beatles are from the UK, where 'fag' is not slang for 'gay man'.

Nobody 08-04-2009 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigi (Post 11409425)
It's not about a backyard basketball match between two friends??

Of course not, don't be silly.



They're both playing catch with a baseball....and possibly wearing catchers mitts. :D

Marley23 08-04-2009 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase (Post 11409812)
Mostly because that's the kind of guy John was.

I agree with that and with your view on John's sense of humor, but the question was whether or not the words "rich fag Jew" appear on the recording everybody knows. Like you, I find the idea inconceivable and unsupported by listening. Could he have sang it in a demo? Maybe. But gigi was asking if that's what they sing on the album version.

ajdebosco 08-04-2009 12:26 PM

Not the truth
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gigi (Post 11409425)
Do they really sing "Baby you're a rich fag Jew" to Brian Epstein in "Baby You're a Rich Man"?

Funny you should ask; I was fortunate to receive bona fide college credits for a course devoted to Sgt. Pepper's, Magical Mystery Tour, and the White Album. The Prof fancied himself [B]The[B] expert on lyrics, meanings, and debunking misconceptions about the Beatles, and this topic came up. He claimed that John Lennon had indeed shouted those words during an early take that never made it onto vinyl or tape, but the story persists to this day. It is certainly not as clear in the last chorus just what they are saying, but even the digitally remastered sounds seem to be "...rich man, too!"

I had to listen to this tune again, and don't hear the slur, but I did recall that Brian Jones played the synth intro, and Mick Jagger can clearly be heard wailing his distinctive vocals as a backup.


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