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Old 05-15-2019, 07:34 AM
monstro is online now
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
I also think that no matter what the phase, people are going to complain because the issue is with the underlying concept. ANY discussion about how qualities associated with manliness might be negative is going to inspire defensiveness in some portion of the population. As has been pointed out, we started having this conversation centuries ago about Toxic Femininity, and were allowed to have it. But anything perceived as an attack on masculinity has to be shut down before it starts.
I wonder if the OP had been just about toxic femininity, would posters like ITR champion and DSeid be so adamant in their denial. Or would they concede that women are disproportionately likely to possess a set of traits that are fine in low doses and damaging at high doses--traits that are encouraged or at least tolerated by society with the excuse "That's just how women are".

I'm pretty sure that this is a noncontroversial issue for most people. I say this because it seems like that most people have some story about middle-age "Karen" doing something bad or some "gold-digging ho" doing something bad or some all-female workplace acting "bad". Or some teenage girl doing something bad(everyone always seems quite familiar with the "mean girl" concept). And the "something bad" always seems to fit in with offenses that line up with extreme femininity. Karens become hysterical when the waitstaff don't do something to their exact specification and use their hysteria as a weapon. Gold-digging hos are high maintenance narcissicists who use their feminine wiles to extract resources from others. All-female workplaces are petty and catty and backstabby. And teenaged girls are all about drama and shit-stirring and catching an attitude with people. These are stereotypes--yes--but there are some women who nonetheless fulfill them to a T. Are all of them carrying out social programming? Of course not. But I don't think it's crazy to think that some significant fraction engage in certain behaviors because they think that's what they are "supposed" to do. Maybe they have been explicitly taught this or they just picked up it from their environments by studying others.

"My husband needs to show his love by buying me gifts all the time and taking care of all the finances. I shouldn't have to lift a finger beyond running the vacuum and doing the dishes. Because that's how a beautiful woman such as myself should be treated."

"Yeah, I'm constantly talking shit about my best friend behind her back and that might not be nice, but that's just how we girls are. That's what we all do."

"I have no problem barking orders at waitstaff because I'm a three time mother and a five time grandmother. I'm entitled to queen treatment as far as I'm concerned. I demand it!"