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Old 05-14-2019, 09:27 AM
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DSeid is offline
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,789
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
I phrased that poorly.

My point was that there is a near-perfect overlap between "people who know what the fuck they're talking about" and "people who understand that toxic masculinity is a thing". Corollary: the people claiming that it's humbug don't. While they by no means make up all the people who have never read a goddamn book on gender studies in their lives (that's "most people"), the people who have never read a goddamn book on gender studies in their lives are the only people who would say something so silly. Hence my comparison to "post-modern neo-marxism", a phrase that only makes sense if you have absolutely no idea what any of the words involved actually mean.

The problem is that past a certain point, if you want to understand something, you have to do one of two things:

1. Trust the experts
2. Put in the work and do the reading yourself

If you are willing to do neither... Well, that's how you end up on Mount Stupid.

And it's not like toxic masculinity is that hard of a hard concept, relatively speaking. It just takes a willingness to understand systemic issues (and the inadequacy of individual solutions to systemic issues). And yet some people still get it very wrong:

But... That's the stereotype of masculinity we're pushing back on. It's literally what we're both describing and decrying! We're pointing out that the stereotype is usually inaccurate, and should not be held up as aspirational. That masculinity is more than its most toxic forms.

This is a bit like if I say, "there is a stereotype about black people being big dumb brutes. This is a very bad stereotype that is neither accurate to reality nor should be considered something to aspire to", and you object to this by saying, "Hey, by bringing up that stereotype, you're reinforcing that stereotype!" Or is it just because we're putting a label to the stereotype that indicates what it is a stereotype of?
When it comes to social change taking the “trust the experts” is not going to be an effective approach.

I’m not seeing the stereotype being rejected when monstro characterizes certain of her traits as “masculine” ... I’m seeing, and I mean no offense here, a cluelessness that she holds the stereotypes as given facts.

Again I come to this from parenting and reacting to discussions about male role modeling as a parent.

We’ve raised four kids to adulthood now (last graduating HS). My take is not to teach what it means to be a man or to be a woman but as best I can what it means to be the best human you can be. My daughter is not masculine or embracing masculine traits because she is tough assertive and strong. My son is not embracing feminine traits by crying at movies and studying to become a social worker. He is a strong man and she is a strong woman. Period.