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Old 09-10-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
That last point is the tricky thing though. On what grounds do you cancel it?
There are a lot of good reasons for this, actually!

1. On representational grounds. Sometimes, the outcome of a referendum is so horrendous that the representatives of a representational democracy must step in and put a stop to it. We now know that Brexit would be a short-term and long-term catastrophe, and the actual vote was merely advisory, with no clear promise of what would happen as a result of it. It is entirely valid to say, "No, sorry, we're not going to shoot ourselves in the head, this is stupid."
2. On democratic grounds. Recent polling has shown a steady drop in support for Brexit, to the point where it is now clearly in the minority.
3. On legitimacy grounds. The election was rife with dishonesty and outright (punishable!) electoral fraud, almost all on the winning side.
4. On technical grounds. What people voted for and what people are likely to get are two very different things. There was an advisory vote held on the question, "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?". This says nothing about what manner the leaving should be, and it's entirely possible that, had the actual available options been "stay or leave in a catastrophic no-deal brexit that leads to serious shortages in every industry and insane harm for countless people", the poll would have gone quite differently.
5. On the grounds that you're not actually cancelling shit! There is no reason you could not revoke article 50 now, then re-invoke it a few years down the line once the UK has figured out what it wants and how it plans to achieve those goals. Literally all it does is give the status quo more time and improve Britain's bargaining position.

So yeah. Lots of reasons.

Quote:
The assumption seems to be that there is no democratic fallout from doing so. Cancelling it does not mean that those who voted for it will shut up and go home.
Obviously not. But it does mean that we avoid the immediate catastrophe, and that seems slightly more pressing than pissing off a bunch of (and let's be perfectly honest here) impressively thick and/or racist people.

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If you are saying that leaving the EU is now impossible then people will quite rightly say "when did we agree to give up all possibility of leaving the EU?" To me, such a situation would have been the greatest democratic outrage.
But... nobody is saying that. Indeed, emphasis is consistently being put on how piss-poor this specific attempt is. Indeed, it's hard to imagine how the UK could have screwed the pooch any harder on this. It is absolutely possible to leave the European Union. It is not possible to do so without some fairly significant economic hardships, but in a rational world, Britain would be aware of those problems and will have prepared for the contingencies, and worked out a deal with the EU that would minimize the harm.

But we live in a shit world, where the government itself covers up papers detailing how bad things are going to get, lest people start to get cold feet. We live in a world where the government tried to hire a ferry company as a contingency plan and it turned out the company owned zero ships. Is it possible to leave the EU? Sure! But May was not up to the task, and Johnson sure as hell ain't up for the task. It's like asking whether the US can win a war against Iraq. Sure! It's just that maybe George W. Bush is the wrong man for the job, and if we're stuck with him, we'd be better off calling the whole thing off.

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If it is still possible then the problem has not gone away and will resurface with renewed force whenever the E.U. program overreaches itself or stumbles......and it will.
Sure! But then what? What's the worst-case scenario then? Is it worse than "no-deal Brexit under a Johnson administration"? If so: how?! Seems to me that the worst-case scenario then is "the worst-case scenario now, but delayed substantially", and given that the best-case scenario is that Britain doesn't fuck itself sideways, I'll roll those dice any day of the week.

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Regardless of any of the above, If a second referendum were held it would have to be on the basis of a remain vote representing a de-facto confirmation that the UK can never leave in the future. It is a pretty sure thing that the EU will never allow this situation to arise again. Expect a new treaty in the aftermath of this whatever happens to Brexit.
Any cite on any of that? Because this seems like senseless speculation about as reasonable as the last stupid idea Boris Johnson plastered on the side of a bus.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 09-10-2019 at 11:21 AM.