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Old 05-11-2019, 09:32 AM
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Budget Player Cadet is offline
Join Date: May 2011
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Originally Posted by RingsOfPylon View Post
It does seem that some noticeably masculine-looking women are running away (heh) with a number of titles when competing against supposedly talented ciswomen. And, they seem to win consistently and overwhelmingly.
Ooh, do you have data backing this up, showing that transwomen tend to dominate any competition they take part in?

Or is it just the same handful of names so familiar to anyone who listens to TERFs that I can recite them in the cadence of "We Didn't Start The Fire" by now?

Confirmation bias.

You don't notice the transwomen in sports that don't succeed, because they fade into the background. To quote Rachel McKinnon, after someone who beat her in 11 out of 13 races they were in accused her of an "unfair advantage" due to being a transwoman:
This is what the double-bind for trans women athletes looks like: when we win, it's because we're transgender and it's unfair; when we lose, no one notices (and it's because we're just not that good anyway). Even when it's the SAME racer. That's what transphobia looks like.
But the moment a transwoman achieves something significant, a bunch of radfems are going to be screaming from the goddamn rooftops about how obviously it's just because they're a man.

RadFems are crazy, but they do have a point there. Just how much accommodation has to be made? And, do we accommodate and compromise ourselves to the point where we no longer have these venues or to where they simply become meaningless venues meant to showcase the talents of former males who couldn't cut it in the male venues?
Right, see, this is the kind of shit you're going to get shamed for. Because it's fucking shameful. People don't transition because "they couldn't hack it as men". Neither in their professions/sports nor in general, no matter what that hack Blanchard has to say about it. That's the toxic little assumption hidden in here. "Transwomen aren't women, they're men invading women's spaces for reason X".

Fuck that noise. Seriously, have you ever met a transwoman? Or spoken to even one? Do you know the kind of shit they go through in transitioning? Do you know how unpleasant HRT can be?

Giving transwomen access to women's spaces is not "accomodation". It's not "compromise". D'y'know why? Because trans women, and I will say this as often as I need to, are women.

How much disdain do you have to have for ciswomen to demand compliance based on something that is counterintuitive to them and flies in the face of their experiences? Is that what you really think of ciswomen when they voice reservations and concerns?
I have plenty of respect for women. I have zero respect for bigoted fucksticks like the folks at WoLF, who ally themselves with the religious right wing to attack other women. I will disdain people who misgender transwomen or treat them like an invading force until the goddamn cows come home.

Which leads to the bathroom/locker room thing. While it is ostensibly about safety, because no 5 foot tall woman feels completely at ease if the person sharing their facilities during undress and/or toileting is a tall, broad-shouldered, intimidating stranger,
Given the rate at which transwomen assault women in restrooms, this is rank transphobia. What you're describing happens about as often as men get their dicks bitten off by sewer animals while sitting down to pee. If you feel unsafe around women who don't look like you, that's your problem. Don't make it theirs. Especially because a lot of people are really bad at telling who's trans and who is merely butch, see my previous post on the subject.

I want sex segregated privacy for personal things when it is available. If you indicate that a facility is sex-segregated, that's what I expect to get. Otherwise, I'm being asked to trust based on absolutely nothing at all. In case no one has noticed previously, trusting others with male anatomy hasn't always worked out well for women.
Again: this is rank transphobia.
“States across the country have introduced harmful legislation or initiatives that seek to repeal non-discrimination protections or restrict transgender people’s access to gender-specific facilities like restrooms. Those who are pushing these proposals have claimed that these proposals are necessary for public safety and to prevent sexual violence against women and children. As rape crisis centers, shelters, and other service providers who work each and every day to meet the needs of all survivors and reduce sexual assault and domestic violence throughout society, we speak from experience and expertise when we state that these claims are false.

“Nondiscrimination laws do not allow men to go into women’s restrooms—period. The claim that allowing transgender people to use the facilities that match the gender they live every day allows men into women’s bathrooms or women into men’s is based either on a flawed understanding of what it means to be transgender or a misrepresentation of the law.”

“As advocates committed to ending sexual assault and domestic violence of every kind, we will never support any law or policy that could put anyone at greater risk for assault or harassment. That is why we are able to strongly support transgender- inclusive nondiscrimination protections—and why we oppose any law that would jeopardize the safety of transgender people by forcing them into restrooms that do not align with the gender they live every day.”
That fear has been an extremely effective tool for scaring people into voting against even basic protections for transgender people, which is why conservatives routinely use the phrase "bathroom bill" to describe laws prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations. When conservative media outlets attack non-discrimination laws for transgender people, they almost exclusively focus on bathroom and locker room facilities.

But that fear is baseless - completely unsupported by years of evidence from states that already have non-discrimination laws on the books. In a new Media Matters report, experts from twelve states - including law enforcement officials, state human rights workers, and sexual assault victims advocates - debunk the myth that non-discrimination laws have any relation to incidents of sexual assault or harassment in public restrooms:
There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, according to a new study from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law. The study is the first of its kind to rigorously test the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

“Opponents of public accommodations laws that include gender identity protections often claim that the laws leave women and children vulnerable to attack in public restrooms,” said lead author Amira Hasenbush. “But this study provides evidence that these incidents are rare and unrelated to the laws.”
I see no more reason to respect this opinion than I see to respect the opinion of the bigoted fucksticks using the exact same arguments to argue in favor of segregation based on race.

...That said, y'know what does increase risk of sexual assault of women? Forcing women to use the men's bathroom.
(CNN)Transgender and gender-nonbinary US teens -- those whose sexual identity falls outside the traditional male and female -- are at greater risk of sexual assault at schools that deny them access to bathrooms or locker rooms that match their sexual identity, according to a new study.

Researchers analyzed data from 3,673 adolescents in the LGBTQ Teen Study, an anonymous web-based survey of US kids ages 13 to 17. Students who reported being told by teachers or staff that they could not use restrooms or locker rooms consistent with their sexual identity at school were classified as having "restrictive access."

Just over 1 out of every 4 students in the study, or 25.9%, reported being a victim of sexual assault in the past 12 months. Transgender and gender-nonbinary teens who were subject to restroom or locker room restrictions had an even higher prevalence of sexual assault, at 36%, according to the findings, published Monday in the journal Pediatrics.

If you're looking to prevent sexual assault, you're on the wrong side of this one. Transwomen get harassed and assaulted in public places at rates that would qualify as "disgusting" if they were a fraction of what they are. Meanwhile, transwomen pose no real threat to women in women-only spaces. (Unless you count "making bigots uncomfortable" as a threat.) If you want to reduce the rate at which women are assaulted, stop forcing a population of women that are particularly at-risk to use the wrong fucking bathroom!


Lemme just take a deep breath here.


Honestly, this whole post is just drenched with transphobic rhetoric and talking points. Read between the lines, and what do we see?
  • Transwomen are men.
  • Transwomen are merely pretending to be women.
  • Women can't be safe around transwomen because transwomen are men.
  • Women can't reasonably share in womanhood with transwomen because, to quote Natalie Wynn, "you will never squeeze life through your sacred passage". (Like, I thought this was a bit of exaggeration for satire, but no, here you are, literally saying this shit.)
  • Transfeminine athletes are men pretending to be women for easier accolades.

...And so on and so forth. Simmering inches below the surface is this boiling swamp of transphobic rhetoric and hatred, of fear and misunderstanding, of warmed-over talking points that were shown quite thoroughly to be bullshit back last time this discussion boiled over about the North Carolina bathroom bills. And yeah, if you think this makes me "disdainful"...

Originally Posted by RingsOfPylon View Post
Oh, lordy. Leave it to a bunch of mostly bio males to tell us what it means to be a woman and who should be unquestioningly accepted as a female, how they should be accepted, and how ciswomen should feel about it (or shamed into it).
...Well, guilty as charged - I am extremely disdainful of hateful, abusive, nasty, transphobic rhetoric, no matter how many spoonfuls of sugar you use to help the poison go down. If you insist on being a dick to transwomen, then yes, I'm going to shame you for that.