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Old 12-06-2018, 01:47 PM
Babale is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
There has been discussion on the SDMB that liberals have trouble understanding the motivations of conservatives. The reverse isn't nearly as true - conservatives and independents are more likely to be able to accurately define what drives liberals. I think that might be what is going on here.
You know, I used to consider myself an independent. But since 2016 assholes like you have made me question every conservative position I've held. I still hold many of those positions, but I had to have a good, hard think about it, because the fact that I agree with someone who is THIS blind or hateful is kinda disturbing.

Quote:
White guy (okay, half-Hispanic/half-white) shoots black kid. There is no room in your brain for any explanation except the one - it has to be racist. That's not a conclusion; it's an assumption. And there is no room in your teeny little brain for any other explanation - Zimmerman shot a black kid (who attacked him and was sitting on his chest trying to bash his head in), so Zimmerman is a racist racist who is racist.
Hmmm, no, try again. Let's think about what actually happened. White guy followed a black kid around, demanded to know what he was doing, then got in a fight with him, then shot the black kid.

At the end of the day, an unarmed black kid who was not committing any crimes before Zimmerman came on the scene is dead. Before we move forward, can we just agree that this is a bad thing? That even if Zimmerman was right to fear for his life, it was tragic that Trayvon ended up dead? Because as far as I can tell, neither you nor HurricaneDitka ever acknowledged this.

Now, why did Trayvon Martin end up dead? Because Zimmerman shot him. Why were Trayvon and Zimmerman in contact in the first place? Because Zimmerman followed Trayvon despite being told not to. Why did he do this?

Well, this is where we should take another quick pause. Can we at least agree that George Zimmerman is a piece of shit individual? Regardless of whether this particular shooting was justified, do you understand that his behavior is not beneficial to our society? Even if he had stopped Trayvon, had a short chat with him, and sent him on our way, that would still be a bad thing, because who the bloody FUCK is George Zimmerman to stop random people on the street and demand to know their business? We have police officers for that, and fuckheads like Zimmerman, with his history of questionable behavior (can you just agree to THAT? That Zimmerman is a person with a history of bad judgement? Because regardless of the Trayvon Martin case, that's still a fact!) should not be patrolling our streets, armed with a gun?

OK, now that we've addressed that -- so Zimmerman is following Trayvon. Why? I'm not asking you what you can "prove beyond reasonable doubt". Based on your experience with the human fucking race, why do you think that Zimmerman was following Trayvon? Do you think it might be because he was black? Do you understand that these types of encounters between blacks and law enforcement -- even when they end up totally peaceful, and the cop and black man just converse and go about their days -- still lead to a hostile relationship between the African American community and our law enforcement? And do you agree that a fat fuck like George Zimmerman is much less qualified to handle that complex relationship than a trained officer of the law? Because these are very important issues to consider when we look at what happened that night.

Now, based on the relationship between law enforcement (and I realize that Zimmerman isn't law enforcement, but when he stops and questions Martin, he's acting in that capacity -- but without any of the respect that comes from the badge, and from being a public servant in the employee of our - hopefully at least somewhat - trusted government) and the African American community, do you see why Martin might feel threatened here? Based on the long, long history of lynching and hate crimes carried out in the South, which I am sure that you condemn just as much as I do, do you see why Trayvon Martin might fear for his life in that moment? You and HurricaneDitka are both very quick to point out that asking someone "what are you doing around here?" isn't a threat, but between 1865 and 1968, how many encounters between blacks and whites that started off with that exact sentence ended up with the black man hanging from a tree? Do you really not see why Trayvon Martin might fear for his life in that situation?

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Then I point out that the reason Zimmerman shot him is because Martin was sitting on his chest trying to bash his head in. That doesn't fit into your head - it requires the ability to set aside what you have been conditioned to do, and actually think analytically. That's hard work. So, it's easier not to do that - I must be a racist racist who is racist too. I get that.
No, that's not it at all. But you're refusing to consider WHY Martin would do such a thing. Martin was a human being, a rational, thinking human person. Not an animal. He must have had some reason to attack Zimmerman. That reason could have been that Zimmerman had a nice watch and Trayvon wanted to take it, for example. But we can't just make up a reason -- we need to examine what we know.

What we know is that Trayvon Martin was a 17 year old kid who was scared. We know he was scared because he fled from the mail shed at a run, and he explained his actions over the phone to his girlfriend. He told her that he was afraid of the man who was following him.

Do you recognize that for a 17 year old kid, outside after dark, realizing that you are being followed is scary? Do you realize that for a black man in the South, being followed by a white man is even scarier?

Trayvon ran, and eventually he reached his father's street. He said that he was "right outside", but he continued walking, until he saw the man who was following him again. I know you keep insisting that he had made it to his father's doorstep, but as I pointed out in the other thread, that's not consistent with the testimony that HurricaneDitka cited. And we know that he was scared again, because that's what the evidence shows us. Why would he be scared? Well, sometimes you think that someone is following you; but then you turn a corner and they're gone. But if you lose sight of them, and then see them again, that confirms the suspicion: they really are following you.

Trayvon was talking to his girlfriend, telling her how scared he was. Does that sound like the type of thing a big, bad thug looking for a fight would do?

Trayvon didn't run -- according to his girlfriend, he was too winded. Even if that wasn't the case, I believe he has the right to "stand his ground", doesn't he? When Zimmerman approached, he asked him why he was following him. Zimmerman didn't identify himself as a concerned citizen, a member of the neighborhood watch, someone protecting the community. He just demanded to know what Trayvon was doing. Why does Zimmerman do this? What gave him the right to wander around after dark, but forbids Trayvon from doing it? It's pretty obvious that this is a racial issue. Trayvon is suspicious because he's black. You might deny it, Zimmerman might deny it, but come on. Give it a rest. It's a racial issue, and you know it, deep inside. Study after study has shown that race has a real, measurable impact on these sorts of decisions, even among people who aren't racist. And based on Zimmerman's other actions -- for example, his tweets calling Obama a baboon, or setting his profile picture to a confederate flag -- all show that he IS a racist. You can admit that. It doesn't invalidate your "self defense" argument, and it doesn't weaken your gun rights. Even if Zimmerman was fully justified in shooting Trayvon, he's still a racist, as is evidenced by plenty of other actions that he's taken.

So here's Trayvon, on a dark street with a grown man -- a grown white man -- who is demanding to know what his business is. At this point, the facts get blurry. But we know that Trayvon struck Zimmerman and eventually ended up on top of him. What do you think led him to do this? Is it just the fact that he's a 'thug', that the hormones in his body drove him mad, and with no more reason than a wild beast he attacked Zimmerman? Because that's the story you told in the other thread. If you don't see how that narrative lines up precisely with the racist ideology of the South during the height of the Jim Crow era, then you shouldn't be calling anyone else "little brained". And if you DO see it, but you stand by that argument, then you're a racist, plain and simple.

That was your explanation. That Trayvon is some sort of madman, who attacked Zimmerman for the simple pleasure of a fight. I ask you if that lines up at all with Dee Dee's testimony. If the boy who ran away scared is really the man who savagely attacked Zimmerman. I don't believe it, but you apparently do.

I think it's much more likely that, fully aware of the history of his people in the South, Trayvon was scared shitless. Perhaps irrationally -- he is, after all, a 17 year old boy -- when Zimmerman approached him, he decided that Zimmerman was stopping him because of his race, and meant to do harm to him. Maybe he was wrong about that, and Zimmerman was pure of heart, but based on the history involved, I hope you can agree that it isn't too much of a stretch. Maybe he even saw the gun. Humans are notoriously bad at risk assessment, and 17 year olds especially so. Maybe Trayvon decided that Zimmerman was going to hurt him because of his race, and so he tried to defend himself.

Is it really so ridiculous to think that this is possible? You act as if the South has no problems with racism. As if there weren't over 2,000 hate crimes committed against blacks in 2012, the year that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.

That's why I call you racist. Because you choose to ignore the fact that black people are still discriminated against today, and are even still violently attacked at times. You choose to pretend that Trayvon Martin's killing had nothing to do with race. And you choose to pretend that Zimmerman is a fine Southern gentleman and an example to us all.

I know you probably won't read all of this, or will respond to it with a one-line dismissal. But I chose to believe that maybe you do care about honest debate, so I took the time to explain my thinking. I won't bother responding directly to your accusations -- that I use the label "racist" to discredit you lightly. Hopefully my reasoning is refutation enough.