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Old 05-11-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
It has something to do with the discussion. Because if they have a legitimate reason to prevent access to a man, they have a legitimate reason to prevent access to someone indistinguishable from a man. If they have a legitimate reason to want to not be exposed to the sight of a dick, for instance, it doesn't matter how the dick owner self-identify.
This doesn't change anything. Lying pervy men can pretend to be transmen as easily as they can pretend to be transwomen. Or they can shave and wear a dress, as they always have been able to. With your rule, they pretend to be trans, biological females who look like men, but are forced by law and custom to use the ladies' room because they're supposedly biologically female. Or they just pretend to be masculine appearing ciswomen. Or a million other deceitful options.

But this happens almost never, and I see no reason to believe this would change if we treat trans people with decency and respect.
Quote:
Your position seems to variably rest on two different arguments : the first one being that women don't really have any valid reason to be bothered (perv doing perv things are rare, and anyway they'll manage to do them if they really want to, the presence of someone who might or might not be a man is unimportant and not a reasonable concern), the second being that a transwoman being a woman by definition, there never can be a valid reason to prevent her access (say, even if it's demonstrated that a man in a locker room has a 80% chance of committing rape, someone who looks like a man claiming to self-identify as a woman should still be permitted access).

And it's the same with sports. Here too, your arguments seem to rest of those two ideas : transwomen in fact don't have any advantage in sports, and even if they had one, and were winning competitions 100% of the time, they still should be allowed to compete on principle.

And I think that the first position (there's no cause for concern) isn't clearly established (it's at least highly disputed), and the second position (the desire of transwomen to be always recognized as women trumps any desire ciswomen might have, like feeling safe or having a shot at winning a competition) isn't morally sound. And it's in particular this second view that I have a big issue with.
There's no valid reason to restrict the access of law abiding real transwomen from using facilities. Especially when the alternative is to force them to use facilities that have a history of brutalizing them. There is no history of fake transwomen routinely brutalizing women by lying their way into bathrooms. This is a fake problem with no history to it. I'm more worried about the real problem with lots of terrible history - trans people being brutalized, usually by cismen. That's happened many times in men's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I'm more worried about real brutality than largely fantasy brutality.
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Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-11-2019 at 12:23 PM.