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Old 05-13-2019, 09:23 PM
monstro is online now
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,735
Originally Posted by DSeid
I reject your characterization of some women displaying "traits that are masculine" as a harmful sexist stereotype. What are they doing that they are acting more male (and therefore less female)? Standing up for themselves? Liking carpentry? Being a strong and decisive leader? Lifting weights? Being a bit aggressive?
Did you see the example I provided of a woman (me) taking on the very worse characteristics of the guys around her? If I had been in a group of women, I probably would have never made a "See You Next Tuesday" reference because no one would have found it funny. But because I was with a group of guys who loved their misogynistic labels and expressions, I felt I had to stoop to such a low to get their respect.

You're distorting what Manda JO said, by the way. She didn't say women who display masculine traits act more "male". I'm pretty sure if that's what she had wanted to say, she would have said it. No, what she said is that there are women who have masculine traits. Are you now denying the existence of masculine traits, whether non-toxic or toxic?

I'm a woman who's comfortable in her identity who has no problem admitting to having masculine traits. I'm gonna guess that a significant number of women would have no problem identifying some aspect to their personality that doesn't fit with the traditional concept of "femininity" and leans more towards "masculine". Despite what Jared's would have you believe, maybe they DESPISE jewelry. Maybe they'd much rather watch an action or sci-fi movie over a rom-com any ole day. Maybe they don't particularly care for babies/kids or being a domestic goddess. Maybe they really like sex just for the sex and could give a flying fuck about the emotional stuff. Maybe they would rather tinker with something in the basement for hours rather than socialize. Maybe they are not especially in tune with other people's emotions and couldn't care less about pleasing anyone. Maybe they don't put a huge emphasis on clothing/cosmetics/grooming. Maybe they aren't especially verbally or emotionally expressive. Maybe they are very competitive, very assertive, and very self-assured. A woman may find herself checking one of these boxes or multiple ones and still be quite feminine in all other respects. While also never at any time resembling a "male".

I think it would be smart for a woman with any of the traits I just listed to be aware of certain tendencies. Like, it's OK for a woman to not care about her physical appearance (within reason, of course). But it's not OK for a woman to denigrate a woman who DOES care a lot. I know I've had to check myself (on multiple occasions) about judging a woman for being a "girly girl". I've been programmed to think that "girly girls" are dumb flibbertigibbets who always manage to get other people to do their work for them. Yeah, dumb flibbertigibbets exist, but I always have to remind myself that they don't look a certain way. A woman can be dumb and look like they just rolled out of bed, and she can be brilliant and resemble a Barbie doll. I don't judge the dapper man negatively, so it is unfair for me to negatively judge the stylish woman. It doesn't matter to me that I can't identify the source of this programming. I just know it exists in me and that I have the power to push back against it.

I think women who work in male-dominated professions are vulnerable to toxic masculinity-influenced thinking, since we've absorbed subtle messages about "who belongs" and "who doesn't belong". I'll never forget this SDMB thread, wherein the OP bashes women who bring stuffed animals to work while having absolutely no problem with the guys bringing in Legos and action figures. Notice how the OP seems to be arguing that if it weren't for their stupid stuffed animals, women would get more respect and be able to ascend the ranks of management. She might as well be saying, "If women could just act like guys, they wouldn't be such embarrassing losers!" This is such a shitty and harmful mindset. I really don't know a better word than "toxic" to describe it.

Last edited by monstro; 05-13-2019 at 09:24 PM.