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Old 05-10-2019, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
But then shouldn't this lead to the conclusion that women only spaces are utterly unnecessary?

Because I'm not arguing that transwomen in women only spaces is clearly a problem. I'm arguing that if there's actually a problem wrt the presence of men in some spaces (be it safety or simply prudishness or whatever else), then the access of people stating that they identify as a woman despite not having a woman make up is also a legitimate concern.

If it doesn't matter who enters a locker room because anyway pervs will find ways to do their perv things and this is addressed by existing laws about pervs and perv things, and women have no valid reason to be bothered by the unwanted sight of a dick, then I'm not sure why the solution advocated shouldn't be to make to make these spaces coed, period.
Feel free to advocate for this. But, in general, people seem to prefer segregated-gender bathrooms and locker rooms. Yet, somehow, we haven't had a plague of pervs, despite how incredibly easy it is to be deceitful (and always has been), mostly because virtually no one is interested in going in the "wrong" bathroom. This is a solution in search of a problem. Treating trans people with decency doesn't change this at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
No it isnít. If a man walks into a womenís bathroom today (or locker room, or domestic violence shelter, or whatever) heís told to get out, and if he refuses security or the police will remove him.
For bathrooms and locker rooms, not in my experience. I've seen men go into women's bathrooms/locker rooms (and the reverse) dozens of times in my life, if not more. Never did I see police involvement.

Quote:
If heís a predator, and if he can establish his bona fides by simply saying ďIím a womanĒ, what recourse does anyone have? Why canít he stay there for as long as he likes? And how are vulnerable women in the same space supposed to deal with that?
This already could have occurred. There's nothing new here. He could have said "I'm a transman, but the rules say that I'm a woman so I have to go here". Pretending to be a transwoman gets him into the ladies room under my set of rules... pretending to be a transman gets him into the ladies room under your set of rules. Either way, it's very easy, as it always has been, for a man to go into the ladies' room. But it doesn't happen very often, because very, very few men actually want to go into the ladies' room.

This is not a real, actual problem in the real world, aside from extremely rare cases that already existed and aren't going away.

Quote:
And if there was some way for women to tell the difference between non-passing trans women and predators I might agree. But there isnít.
Sure there is -- is one behaving lewdly? Is one assaulting people? Or are they just going into the stall and peeing? It's really not hard at all. Predators predate; most people just go to the bathroom to do their business.