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Old 05-13-2019, 01:36 PM
Manda JO is offline
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 11,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
“Harmful gender stereotypes” works fine. Even just stating that stereotypes are a common problem across identities and that we all should be aware of them as implicit biases and be aware of structural and institutional factors that promote these stereotypes.

That isn’t demonizing the identity.

And those phrases do. “Toxic masculinity” demonizes the identity.

Look, here’s a challenge. Without saying what it is NOT and without saying things that equally apply to women, what is “masculine” that is not “toxic”?
I don't think "don't apply to women" is really a fair standard there, because lots of women display traits that are masculine.

Let me turn that back to you--what POSITIVE traits do you think are either necessary or sufficient for a person to be a man but are either not seen in women or are not positive when seen in women? What is this positive masculinity that you think is being unfairly slandered?

I, with Wollstonecraft, tend to think we've lumped a bunch of positive traits into the bucket of "masculine" because, historically, we've denied women access to qualities like being forthright, practical, protective, emotionally controlled, logical, and assertive; insofar as women have been "allowed" to have those traits, they've had to accept the label of "less feminine" than women who did not display those traits. On the other hand, we took a bunch of negative traits and lumped them under "feminine"--in order to be fully "feminine", women have had to adopt certain traits that are infantilizing.

So I guess, yeah, I don't believe that there's a non-Toxic masculinity that is the exclusive perview of men; I also don't think there's a non-toxic femininity. I think there are positive and negative traits, and when we say they are good or required if you are THIS gender, and neutral or even negative if you are THAT gender, it's a loss. We can say this or that trait is more common in this or that gender, and we can discuss if that's inherent or cultural in origin, but when you start down the path of "real men have this trait" or "real women are like this", it's bad.