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Old 05-13-2019, 08:50 PM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is offline
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,805
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
I don't think "don't apply to women" is really a fair standard there, because lots of women display traits that are masculine.

Let me turn that back to you--what POSITIVE traits do you think are either necessary or sufficient for a person to be a man but are either not seen in women or are not positive when seen in women? What is this positive masculinity that you think is being unfairly slandered? .
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
DSeid, before you talked about using the term "negative stereotypes". I think the problem with that is that "stereotypes" are about the buckets we put other people in--the concept is inherently one of ignoring or minimizing differences in others and replacing a more nuanced understanding of them as people with a generic "type". A stereotype is understood to be wrongly applied in haste.

The concept of toxic masculinity/femininity is different. It's internal--it's looking at how society compels individuals to adopt anti-social and self-destructive traits in order to live up to a perceived sexual character. I don't think I "stereotype" myself, but I can see how toxic ideas of femininity have warped my sense of self in certain ways, and with that knowledge I can push back against them. That is in no way rejecting my identity as a woman, nor does it make me feel like being woman is toxic.
Addressing a bit out of order ...

I do not consider any traits "necessary or sufficient for a person to be a man but are either not seen in women or are not positive when seen in women" other than being one or the other.

I reject your characterization of some women displaying "traits that are masculine" as a harmful sexist stereotype. What are they doing that they are acting more male (and therefore less female)? Standing up for themselves? Liking carpentry? Being a strong and decisive leader? Lifting weights? Being a bit aggressive?

Those things do not make them less female and more male. A woman who does those things is not manly ... or womanly ... because of she possesses those traits. She is a woman with those traits.

You are not to be faulted for having internalized sexist stereotypes of what is "masculine" or "feminine" but hopefully you can recognize how the terms "hyper" or "toxic" come out of holding those stereotypes. It accepts that "men are this and that" and being those "manly" traits is a problem.

What is "non-toxic masculinity"? And how is a man who is that different than a woman with "non-toxic femininity" other than superficial traits and self-identification?

My position is anyone who labels a trait or characteristic one or the other does so by having accepted the stereotypes.

Stereotypes are NOT exclusively buckets we place OTHERS in. They are expectations we impose upon ourselves as well. Stereotypes most certainly are commonly internalized, both positive ones and negative ones.

A man who is acting to an extreme of what he has been taught is the stereotype of "being a man" is responding to living up to the stereotype ... and may subconsciously do it most when he feels his being "enough of a man" is in question.

Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
It's not clear here what you're asking for in terms of identifying something as "masculine". Do you mean, what sorts of things are conventionally associated with being male?...


...Phrases like "smooth-faced as a girl", "one of those sissy boys with a waxed chest", "No girls allowed when the game is on!", "a deep-voiced bull dyke", etc., are illustrations of toxic masculinity. Having a beard or chest hair or watching men's sports or singing bass, in themselves, are not.
I hope the above clarified for the first section.

As to the second ... are any of those things, like having chest hair, a positive specifically male trait?