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Old 05-17-2019, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
Worse, this type of problem is rigorously and noisily policed for "right-think" and even card-carrying communists can get jumped on by others on the left for not adhering fanatically enough to the party line on these issues.
That kind of annoying SJW is indeed annoying and is mainly just that, annoying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
I mean, I'm not even convinced it's cultural rather than biological. And yes, culture can be deployed to restrain the worst of our biological urges (and this is likely driving the decrease over time in all these things I posit), but then the argument is "we need to get better about transmitting cultural values that can repress these biological urges that are stronger in men," and we're back to nebulous, individually-defined fluff with no concrete actions. Better how?
There's definitely a biological aspect to it. Even if all babies were raised gender neutral, you'd likely have more men in prison for violence than women and the more violent, the more it would skew male.

I would analogize it to muscle mass. The average man doesn't have a lot more muscle than the average woman. But his musculature can usually be developed to a much greater degree than a woman's. To what level it's developed is cultural. To a large extent, that greater ability to develop muscles is a good thing. But when you see people endanger their health with steroids, overtrain because of body dysmorphia or get into fights to feel strong, that's toxic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
What do you want ME to do?
Can't speak for others but if you want to stay out of it and hold to just not being an asshole, I suppose that would likely be enough, especially if you're the type of person who is already concerned with doing the right thing. It can be useful to keep in mind that anyone can pick up maladaptive coping mechanisms but it's not an Inquisition or self-flagellation. Toxic masculinity might mildly apply to many men but the bulk of its effects likely come from a small number of highly dysfunctional men.

As you've noticed, it is nebulous and that may be because we're starting to figure out the edges and content of that concept. Think about how shaky conceptual and definitional frames must have been when people started talking about racism, sexism, child abuse or sexual assault (we've still not collectively ironed out that one). It's going to take some time for humans to come to grasp with that concept and understand it and in the meantime, it's going to be confusing which does comport risks of overextension.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
I'd be willing to bet that if you plotted a time-wise trend, the incidence of most of these things have gone down over time. So did toxic masculinity peak in the 1700's, and has been steadily decreasing since then? If it's steadily decreasing, why are we worried?
Did racism and sexism peak in the 1960s? If it had been decreasing compared to the past, why were people worried? Did child abuse peak at the same time people started talking about it more openly? Did sexual assault and harassment peak just before Me Too?

People thought they were isolated and powerless in front a social phenomenon much bigger than themselves or they hadn't abstracted some of their experiences enough to see a common thread that ran thru them. Now more people are starting to see that it might be turned back so they see a point in participating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
I don't think these are big enough problems in terms of negative impacts to our population compared to "real" problems like having no health care, spending trillions on pointless wars, money absolutely controlling politics at every level nationally, increasing wealth disparities, and many more. Where are the population-level statistics showing this is a real and growing problem compared to the things we KNOW are problems?

and

2) This type of problem is inherently nebulous and largely individually defined.
If you want a simple, straightforward illustration of both why it's a problem and a very concrete example of it, look at Donald Trump. People like him are beyond saving but there may be plenty of boys and young men who might want to be like him and can benefit from realizing that that way of living has the poisonous allure of Tony Montana
Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
Worse, this type of problem is rigorously and noisily policed for "right-think" and even card-carrying communists can get jumped on by others on the left for not adhering fanatically enough to the party line on these issues.
That kind of annoying SJW is indeed annoying but is mainly just that, annoying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
I mean, I'm not even convinced it's cultural rather than biological. And yes, culture can be deployed to restrain the worst of our biological urges (and this is likely driving the decrease over time in all these things I posit), but then the argument is "we need to get better about transmitting cultural values that can repress these biological urges that are stronger in men," and we're back to nebulous, individually-defined fluff with no concrete actions. Better how?
There's definitely a biological aspect to it. Even if all babies were raised gender neutral, you'd likely have more men in prison for violence than women and the more violent, the more it would skew male.

I would analogize it to muscle mass. The average man doesn't have a lot more muscle than the average woman. But his musculature can usually be developed to a much greater degree than a woman's. To what level it's developed is cultural. To a large extent, that greater ability to develop muscles is a good thing. But when you see people endanger their health with steroids, overtrain because of body dysmorphia or get into fights to feel strong, that's toxic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
What do you want ME to do?
Can't speak for others but if you want to stay out of it and hold to just not being an asshole, I suppose that would likely be enough, especially if you're the type of person who is already concerned with doing the right thing. It can be useful to keep in mind that anyone can pick up maladaptive coping mechanisms but it's not an Inquisition or self-flagellation. Toxic masculinity might mildly apply to many men but the bulk of its effects likely come from a small number of highly dysfunctional men.

As you've noticed, it is nebulous and that may be because we're starting to figure out the edges and content of that concept. Think about how shaky conceptual and definitional frames must have been when people started talking about racism, sexism, child abuse or sexual assault (we've still not collectively ironed out that one). It's going to take some time for humans to come to grasp with that concept and understand it and in the meantime, it's going to be confusing which does comport risks of overextension.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
I'd be willing to bet that if you plotted a time-wise trend, the incidence of most of these things have gone down over time. So did toxic masculinity peak in the 1700's, and has been steadily decreasing since then? If it's steadily decreasing, why are we worried?
Did racism and sexism peak in the 1960s? If it had been decreasing compared to the past, why were people worried? Did child abuse peak at the same time people started talking about it more openly? Did sexual assault and harassment peak just before Me Too?

People thought they were isolated and powerless in front a social phenomenon much bigger than themselves. Now more people are starting to see that it might be turned back so they see a point in participating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Textual Innuendo View Post
I don't think these are big enough problems in terms of negative impacts to our population compared to "real" problems like having no health care, spending trillions on pointless wars, money absolutely controlling politics at every level nationally, increasing wealth disparities, and many more. Where are the population-level statistics showing this is a real and growing problem compared to the things we KNOW are problems?

and

2) This type of problem is inherently nebulous and largely individually defined.
If you want a simple, straightforward illustration of both why it's a problem and a very concrete example of it, look at Donald Trump. People like him are beyond saving but there may be plenty of boys and young men who might want to be like him and can benefit from realizing that that way of living has the poisonous allure of Tony Montana's story.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 05-17-2019 at 06:26 PM.