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Old 05-18-2019, 11:02 AM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
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"Three Jews, four opinions."

Here's mine: Not a race. A culture; or, more accurately, several cultures with a number of things in common (Ashkenazi and Sephardim primarily, but there are others.) Also a religion; but it's possible to be culturally Jewish without being religiously Jewish. And it's possible to identify as Jewish without being strongly culturally so.

And whether non-Jewish people in a given area at a given time identify Jews as a race is a different issue from whether the Jews do.

asahi: Why, in any case, would it make a difference to you? The boundary lines that societies distinguish between racial differences, plus what is and what isn't identified as a racial difference, change over time and from place to place. There is no clear line dividing racial, ethnic, and religious bigotries. At any given time some of them may be doing much more harm than others; but which ones are isn't a matter of whether they're classed, either now or during the time being discussed, as racial, religious, ethnic, or something else.


While we're at it: what do you mean by the word "Zionist"? Because it seems to me that you're using it to cover a really wide range of positions. There are people who are Zionist in the sense that they believe God gave a particular chunk of land to be a religious state of Israel, and that they're divinely appointed to claim all of that land. Such people exist. There are also people who believe (with some evidence) that Jews can't trust any government that Jews aren't in control of, and that the current state of Israel is the only hope of having such a state; they may not think God's got anything to do with it at all, and may want the state to be secular. And there are also people who think that a whole lot of things went wrong in the 1940's and maybe the political creation of a state of Israel was one of the things that went wrong, but it exists, it's existed for over seventy years, and it's full of people whose lives would be in serious danger if it disappeared; and therefore it shouldn't disappear.

-- there's three opinions; I'm sure there are dozens more. Come to think of it I'll throw in a couple more, not because they're particularly Jewish positions -- one of them rather the reverse -- but because you've been discussing USA government support for Israel: there are probably people in the USA government who think Israel needs to exist in order that God can then destroy the world, Jews included; and I'm sure there are people in the USA government who just want to support a relatively reliable and/or relatively democratic ally.