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Old 05-18-2019, 02:19 PM
clairobscur is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
clairobscur:

If it was "my" country, I might have a right to have an issue with it, though of course if the government didn't agree with me, I'd be SOL in my wishes.
Indeed you would be. Especially if, like in this case, the "government" was a foreign government who took decisions without regard for your interests or preferences.



Quote:
I never said it wasn't a colonial enterprise.
Maybe you didn't, but a lot of other posters are totally opposed to qualifying it this way.


Quote:
But that was the order of the day back then. The idea of native self-government as a universal ideal is a new one on the world scene. World history is full of empires and conquests, displacements and annexations. The winners controlled the land and doled it out to whomever they wished. Israel is hardly the only modern country created in this way.
There are definitely a number of countries that have been build around and for an immigrant population at the expense of the natives. To begin with, all American countries. But :

- Not many as recently as Israel, at a time when pushing the locals to make room for immigrants was already considered a bad thing.

-In pretty much all other cases, there's no denial that the natives were wronged. In the case of Israel, there is such a denial.


Quote:
Why just next door, the British set up a Saudi prince as absolute monarch of his own newly-minted country full of natives who were never consulted about who would rule over them.
Yes, but again :

-There's a big difference between putting a guy in charge of the people and displacing said people.

-There's hardly anybody who argues in support of the Saudi princes. I'm pretty sure I could open ten threads condemning the Saudis, and not read a single post defending them.

Quote:
But there's no reasonable way, nor is there any international will, to somehow rewind the clock of history until we can somehow tie every clan since Cro-Magnon wanderings to the virgin territory it was the first to occupy [...] To single out Israel as the one exception to this rule, the one country whose existence is problematic because its presence was allowed by the most recent imperial/colonial power rather than by consultation of natives with no say over their political futures is not a valid line of reasoning.
And it so happens that I didn't say that.
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Last edited by clairobscur; 05-18-2019 at 02:19 PM.