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Old 04-29-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
My problem with the scene is not that we got a fist pumping moment of specifically female awesomeness (which could super-easily have been achieved in various other ways) or even a fist pumping moment of specifically female working-together awesomeness (probably somewhat tougher to organically write into the middle of a huge battle, particularly if you want them all to be working together as one unit); it's that it's logistically so ridiculous that it did (and continues to do so) take me somewhat out of the movie.
...and as I said earlier it was logistically ridiculous when Stark and Parker happened to run into each other and have an emotional moment. And it was logistically ridiculous that Peter Quill got rescued then hilariously kneed by Gamora. The Avengers movies are full of logistically ridiculous moments. As has been pointed out what happens to the planet when 50% of the population returns after five years of absence? How exactly does the mechanism of time-travel work in this universe?

So... there's this huge battle, with lots of fog of war and confusion. At one moment on one place on the huge battlefield there is (ignoring the question of whether Captain Marvel should need help or not) a need for help. And, instantaneously, every single female hero from all over the battlefield, wherever they had been, whatever they had been doing, whoever they had been fighting; and NONE of the male heroes, no matter how near-by; all arrive in exactly the same place at exactly the same time to provide that help?
Or perhaps the heroes weren't as spread out as we imagined. I mean Peter and Tony found each other. As did Gamora and Starlord. Thanos blasted Captain Marvel out of the sky and she happened to land right next to Stark and co. Perhaps the heroes were all fighting right next to each other.

Perhaps the women on the battlefield (just like in real life) were looking out for each other, had each others backs, and when the call went out they responded.

It really isn't that hard to imagine how this happened. If you can wave away all the other ridiculous moments in the movie it is pretty easy to wave away this one as well.

It's just silly. And yes, other silly things happen. For instance, the "characters always have time to have a heartfelt conversation and/or quips, even in the middle of an intense battle" cliche. I suppose that I've grown desensitized to them, because they're so much part of the language of blockbuster action moviemaking. Whereas the "all the women from all across the battlefield, despite working happily with their male counterparts before and after this one moment, suddenly work together for one single gender-segregated mission" trope is not yet particularly common.
Well I'm afraid then you are just going to have to get used to it. We've been desensitized to the language of blockbuster action moviemaking where men (more often than not, white men) from all across the battlefield suddenly work together for one single "gender-segregated mission". That trope is so particularly common nobody complains about it. If you hadn't noticed its the default, its because it almost never happens in any other way.

But the language of blockbuster action moviemaking is changing. The language of blockbuster action moviemaking was written by white men. Do you know how many movies with budgets over 100 million have been given to woman directors? Nine. The first one was Kathryn Bigalow in 2002. The next wasn't until 2011 with Jennifer Yuh Nelson and Kung Fu Panda. Lana and Lilly Wachowski in 2012. Patty Jenkins in 2017. Ava DuVernay was the first black woman to get a budget over 100 million and that didn't happen until 2018.

And out of all of those movies only Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel (which was co-directed by a man) would fit what one would call a "blockbuster action movie." Two movies in the entire history of film.

So when you talk about the "language of blockbuster filmmaking" you are talking about movies that have been made by white-men that pandered to white men. Which is why Black Panther was so successful. Which is why Captain Marvel broke a billion dollars. Because there are millions of people out there who hadn't been pandered too that finally are starting to get movies that are pandering to them, we are getting a chance to see people who looked and acted like them onscreen. When I finally watched the movie Moana the other day I was literally in tears for the first twenty minutes of the movie. It was overwhelming. When Hollywood has never pandered to you but then they put people on screen that look like you and sound like you it makes all the difference in the world.

Which is why Captain Marvel sparked such a backlash from the goobers and why so many reviewers missed the subtleties and the nuances in the plotting: the movie didn't pander to them.

And its why this moment: that only last a few seconds onscreen, didn't work for everyone. It didn't fit the cinematic language you are used too, it didn't pander to your expectations.

Would I have objected just as much if it had been men? Hard to say, it's literally never happened...

at least with a cast of this scale, with as many individual bad-ass male AND female characters, such that a sudden assembling of all the bad-ass male characters and specifically none of the bad-ass female characters would be so noticeable.
There has never been a movie with a cast of this scale in the history of filmmaking. There has never been as many individual bad-ass male AND female characters put to film together EVER. DIVERSITY ONSCREEN IS NOT THE DEFAULT. The first Avengers movie had a token woman who had no super powers. What happened in this Endgame wasn't just an evolution, it was a revolution. It was a declarative statement. Phase 3 is ending. Welcome to Phase 4.

(Obviously there have been plenty of movies in the past with tons of bad-ass male characters and NO bad-ass female characters, but that's not really a meaningful comparison.)
Oh come on. Of course it is a meaningful comparison.

To repeat myself from earlier:
As for the women-team-up scene, after a few hours of pondering, I've realized how I would do it, which would also solve another minor problem, which is that Thanos's chief minions, who were quite serious mini-bosses in their own right last movie, barely registered.
Yeah, but I don't want to see your movie. I preferred what I saw.

So one of the (male) minions is fighting one of the female good guys. They trade blows, then he gets the upper hand, and makes a derisive sexist comment, calling her a little girl, or something. Then we do a series of camera cuts all around the battlefield as triumphant music plays, showing all the female heroes kicking ass, ending back at the initial fight, and she responds with a one liner like "I'm not a girl, I'm a woman" (but more funny) and dodges his death blow and chops his ass in half.
This would have been far worse in my opinion. It frames the moment once again by something a man has done, while the moment in the movie is framed around agency and solidarity. It would have taken longer to show this onscreen. There are valid production reasons why they did the scene as they did. It would have framed it around a single battle with a mook instead of the final hit on Thanos before the endgame.

Same general celebratory effect, makes way more sense.
Makes more sense to you, but its effectively adding another subplot to an already overstuffed movie. None of the mooks spoke in the battle. But to set this up you've got to have a talking mook. The only mook that wouldn't need a set-up is Ebony Maw, but having Ebony say a derisive sexist comment would be out of character. Its perfectly possible to do have filmed the scene as you suggest, but it involves adding a completely new plot beat, where as filmed its all about stopping Thanos getting the gauntlet.

But regardless: the men raging across the internet over the scene as shot they would be raging over your scene as well. It wouldn't make any difference to them.