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Old 05-11-2019, 02:46 PM
clairobscur is offline
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paris
Posts: 17,920
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
This doesn't change anything. Lying pervy men can pretend to be transmen as easily as they can pretend to be transwomen. Or they can shave and wear a dress, as they always have been able to. With your rule, they pretend to be trans, biological females who look like men, but are forced by law and custom to use the ladies' room because they're supposedly biologically female. Or they just pretend to be masculine appearing ciswomen. Or a million other deceitful options.

But this happens almost never, and I see no reason to believe this would change if we treat trans people with decency and respect.
This still only address the issue of safety, though. And it's not the only reason, not even the main reason, why people want gender-segregated locker rooms. Most women don't want men around there, period (even if it were absolutely guaranteed that they wouldn't be victimized in any way), and by consequence neither someone who they can't tell the gender of, or simply who looks like a man or even more simply who has man's part, and that regardless of what this person claims to be and even regardless of whether or not this claim is truthful.

Would you say that this preference is a completely illegitimate desire? Or simply that it's a less important desire than that of a preop transwoman to access women locker rooms?

There's no valid reason to restrict the access of law abiding real transwomen from using facilities. Especially when the alternative is to force them to use facilities that have a history of brutalizing them. There is no history of fake transwomen routinely brutalizing women by lying their way into bathrooms. This is a fake problem with no history to it. I'm more worried about the real problem with lots of terrible history - trans people being brutalized, usually by cismen. That's happened many times in men's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I'm more worried about real brutality than largely fantasy brutality.
If it's entirely based on pragmatic reasons, then fine, although of course your assessment of the relative risks can be disputed (and I would also point out that there's always the option of using neither and changing at home, something you pointed at wrt ciswomen unhappy about the presence of transwomen).

But I'm still wondering if you would stop supporting the right of transwomen to use women locker rooms if if was shown to you that you were wrong and that it causes problems. For instance, the "protected class" statute is passed, and there's in fact a number of cases of lecherous or exhibitionist men entering women locker rooms for sexual gratification, highschoolers entering the girls' room as a prank, etc...

Also, you're talking about "real transwomen". How does the random Joe establish that someone entering a locker room, enlisting for a competition, claiming a scholarship, etc... is a real transwoman?
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