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Old 05-14-2019, 02:00 PM
ITR champion is offline
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,340
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post

You never got this message from family, peers, or the popular media?

If so, you're absolutely the exception. It's extremely hard to miss these messages.

Like, just so we're clear I'm not making this up...

Scroll down and you'll see pages upon pages of examples of the trope in popular media. Granted, at this point it's become so clichéd that most of it is lampshade hanging, but the point still stands - this is absolutely a thing people know about, a thing that is nigh-omnipresent in popular culture, and arguing that it isn't is pretty absurd.
Well, let's summarize where we are. I've provided a list of authors, music, and other cultural products that feature men or boys crying/expressing emotions. You've provide a list of cultural products in which men are told not to cry/express emotions. So what can we conclude from that? We can conclude that there's a large variety of cultural products out there and that they do not all deliver the same message on males crying, or on any other issue.

But then you go on to quote this from that page:

Whether or not these tropes are positive or negative, they demonstrate what society considers masculine.
And to say this:
It is a long list. And a lot of the entries are things that either are or should be considered overwhelmingly negative. "Real Men Hate Affection", "Guys are Slobs", et cetera. And some of them are positive, too! "Papa Wolf", for example. But this is the kind of pop-culture influence everyone grows up with, and pretending that it doesn't exist is... well, it's just fucking silly, I'm sorry.
This argument is wrong for several reasons. First, the website doesn't prove anything. There are millions of TV shows, books, movies, comics, and so forth out there. So a website can list a small number of cases on which a particular trope occurs. That hardly proves that said trope dominates all pop culture everywhere. I can name a bunch of pop culture products featuring green characters (The Incredible Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy, How the Grinch Stole Christmas, ...). Does this prove that green characters are omnipresent in pop culture? I think the fact remains that the large majority of characters are not green.

Second, no matter how much we talk about pop culture, it proves nothing about real life. In pop culture, there are a lot of evil overlords who aim to acquire a specific object and use it to rule the world (Sauron, Voldermort, Thanos, ...). This does not prove that society is full of evil overlords who rule the world with a magic ring, wand, or gauntlet. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever taken over the world with a piece of jewelry. It's almost as if reality and fiction are different.

Of course, the people who make pop culture do come out of our society and are influenced by it, but every individual artist puts their individual ideas into their work. Therefore one work of art, or even 100, does not tell us anything about society as whole.

Any claim that "Society says _____________" or "Society considers _____________" is false, if it claims to describe all of present-day society. Society is the sum total of the behaviors of everyone. There are 330,000,000 humans in the USA and billions more in other countries. They say different things. They believe different things. They consider different things to be a masculine ideal. To make a blanket statement about what "society considers masculine" is absurd. To do so based on a list of TV shows, manga, and the like is doubly absurd.