View Single Post
Old 03-12-2019, 02:52 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,791
Originally Posted by NAF1138 View Post
Boling mine.

I think this is the part that is debatable and that most Jews who would consider themselves Zionist (and I am not sure I do) would take issue with.

So let me ask, if we remove the bolded part, is there anything that is wrong with the rest? If it was instead changed from violent oppression to peaceful and safe coexistence would there be anything wrong with that?
To answer the question literally, no, there would be nothing wrong with establishing a Jewish homeland peacefully, assuming there were no displacement of people in developing the territory into a state. In terms of history, however, the truth is more complex than that. The Jewish aliyah and waves of settlements thereafter inevitably displaced the people who called themselves Palestinians. Israel isn't just an idea of a Jewish homeland; it represents a clash of cultures instigated by mostly European Jewish settlers who were there not to 'settle' and integrate but to create a new Jewish state, and thereby establish a completely new culture and set of rules. In other words, Zionism is essentially another form of imperialism. It is impossible to reconcile your question about the establishment of a peaceful Jewish state with the historical record of Zionist Israel.

This is not anti-Jewish, and not even anti-Israel. This is a factual characterization of history, and yet the Zionist lobby has brainwashed Americans into believing that anyone writing or saying the above is an antisemite. Let me assure everyone reading this that I am not. I don't consider myself an expert of any kind on global Jewry or the Jewish diaspora, but I suppose I know enough to state that I've lived in numerous communities in which Jews have contributed greatly to the cultural, social, political, and economic fabric of those communities, and enriched them greatly. And visited and read about many more. I don't even consider myself anti-Israel, really (for the record I'm a believer in the 2-state approach, however impractical that might seem at times). Moreover, I can absolutely acknowledge that Palestinian activism (Hamas, for instance) and pan-Arab nationalism have hardly helped matters over the years. I don't have a problem criticizing Israel's neighbors, particularly those oppressive regimes who've simply used Israel as a way to deflect attention from their own political incompetence and oppression. I just wish that we could talk more plainly about Israel without the conversation being always so one-sided and automatically labeling someone like Ilhan Omar an antisemite without accepting that she might have misspoken and giving her a chance to revise and explain more clearly what she really meant.

Last edited by asahi; 03-12-2019 at 02:54 PM.