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Old 03-13-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
This is bullshit. The vast majority of Zionists that I know recognize the reality that many people were harmed during the creation and early history of Isreal, and that it was not an "abandoned and uninhabited area". In fact, I'm not sure if I know a single Zionist who believes this.
I don't have the entire article, but at least one author makes reference to the "making the desert bloom" trope, which proposes the idea that the Palestinians only became interested in what is now Israel once Jewish settlers brought their technical know-how with them.

Shimon Peres is reported to have said in his book:

"The country was mostly an empty desert, with only a few islands of Arab settlement, and Israel's cultivable land today was indeed redeemed from swamp and wilderness."
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
This is also bullshit. The Jews escaping Europe were looking for a safe place to live. That's it. And they had very good reason to believe that the only possibility of a safe place to live was to create their own country. Why on Earth would they believe, after the Holocaust in Europe, America's indifference during the Holocaust and continuing white supremacism, and the rest of the world's pretty much open hostility to Jews, that they would be safe anywhere else?

So they went to where Jews escaping pogroms and oppression had been fleeing to for decades -- the land that would become Israel.

This doesn't excuse everything that was done in the creation and early history of Israel, but this is the history. The Jews who went to that land before, during, and after the Holocaust were a truly desperate people. And truly desperate people will sometimes do truly desperate things to survive and ensure their safety. That doesn't justify everything done, but it's still an accurate characterization.

You are lumping in all Zionists with a specific racist slice of Zionism. And this provides rhetorical aid and comfort to anti-semites, whatever your intentions.
As I clearly said in my previous post, I fully acknowledge that there were horrific pogroms and acts of violence against Jews, beginning with the Russian pogroms in around 1882. There was antisemitism in Poland and throughout Europe. There was the Dreyfus Affair in France, which polarized France and arguably, irrevocably destroyed not only the safety of Jews but in many ways signaled a final symbolic end to liberalism on much of the Continent. I'm not for a moment denying any of that.' Indeed, many, many Jewish migrants left because they did not feel safe, and upon reflection, I probably did a poor job emphasizing that part in my previous post.

Nevertheless, it is no less true that there were Jewish nationalists who from the beginning envisioned a Jewish state, and they had to know the kind of unrest that this was going to cause. You cannot expect me to take seriously the notion that you can just organize mass migration to a place with completely different culture and religion and expect there not to be conflict, particularly when the idea all along is to establish a "homeland" with completely different cultural traditions. The Zionists who ended up laying down the ideological and political foundation for modern day Israel did so over the objection of Ottomans, who legally ruled the territory at the time. It's worth noting, however, that the Zionists, who were fleeing anti-Jewish persecution in Europe, stood by Turkey as it massacred Armenians in one of the worst genocides in human history - because they hoped to gain Ottoman agreement to a Jewish state. This is not conspiracy theory, but fact. It's more than ironic considering what happened to Jews 20 years later.