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Old 05-10-2019, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by senoy View Post
This is also partially a Rachel Dolezal question. Why isn't Rachel Dolezal black? She said she's black, she ostensibly believed she was black, she acted in ways in which a black person would act, she changed her appearance cosmetically to appear to be black, she seems to say that she identified as black not out of some sort of choice, but rather as an expression of her 'true nature.' The bottom-line though is that Rachel Dolezal was not able to be black because she did not live the life of oppression and have the experience that was necessary to be considered black.
It's hard to quote just a single 3-paragraph segment from this tour de force response by ZinniaJones to this particular argument, but if I had to choose, I think I'd go with this one:
There’s another element of dissimilarity that’s especially striking to me. Trans people have reached what might be called a “critical mass” of awareness. Our visible presence has reached a point where emerging trans people have the means to recognize themselves in us, helping each of them to develop a better understanding of their gender and what’s best for them in their life. I’ve received hundreds of messages from viewers who’ve said that my work led them to realize that they’re trans, but this has been occurring for decades – after Christine Jorgensen publicly transitioned in 1952, hospitals received thousands of requests from trans people who also wanted to transition (Meyerowitz, 2002).

Yet in the wake of Rachel Dolezal’s real-life example, we see nothing of the sort. There aren’t thousands of people emerging to say that her life reflects their own experiences, or that they feel more affirmed in themselves now as a result of her visibility. She is not an instance of a latent yet widespread phenomenon that’s now rising to public awareness – she is one individual, with a particular set of personal issues, who has made a very unique series of poor choices in her life.
Bolding mine. It's a toss-up between this and the bit at the start where she rakes you over the coals for even making such an absurd comparison to begin with. Rachel Dolezal is not comparable to LGBT people. And grounding the discussion in terms of flighty notions about "what is race" or "what is gender" misses how completely these comparisons fall apart when comparing Rachel's life to the life of the average trans person, or "transracialism" to "transgenderism" in aggregate.

Seriously, read the article, then don't make this awful comparison again, please.

It's a similar argument from feminists over transgender rights. They certainly live a life with their own struggles, but they are not the same struggles that women have to go through.
If you've spoken to a single transwoman you'll hear that, alongside concepts like transmisogyny, transwomen suffer from much of the same misogny cis women do. When it comes to sexism, if it's not explicitly biological (like abortion), transwomen almost always suffer alongside ciswomen. Their struggle doesn't simply intersect with that of biological women, it overlaps to an extreme degree.

They can always choose to return to/pass as/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to their birth gender and escape the inherent oppression of being a woman.
This is a bit like saying, "Hey, if you're sick of homophobia, you could always just go back into the closet and marry someone of the opposite sex". I mean, trans people don't go on hormones with quite unpleasant side-effects, get invasive surgery, change their entire outward appearance, and out themselves as one of the most hated and discriminated-against minorities in the world for no reason. They do it because gender dysphoria fucking sucks.

The idea that "if you don't like misogyny, you can always detransition" is just...

...What? The actual? Fuck?

If there is a scholarship for 'Women in Science' and someone who claims to be transgendered applies and is awarded this scholarship, is that really helping women? I think that many would argue it is not.
Transwomen are women. If a scholarship for "women in science" goes to a transwoman, it is helping women, because that woman...

(See if you can figure out where I'm going with this...) a woman.


A slight aside. Lemme take a stab in the dark, here - well, not that dark, given your previous reference to Rachel Dolezal and the way you say "claims to be transgendered".

There's an assumption here that these people are pretending, isn't there? That they're really guys, just pretending to be women - presumably for all the advantages that come in our society from being transwomen (if you read that sentence without catching the joke, try again).

Now, maybe that never crossed your mind. Maybe it's also not subconsciously underpinning anything you're saying here. If so: good, because it's bullshit. It doesn't happen. Transwomen generally transition because they identify as women. It's not a prank, it's not a trick - they feel like they are women, they identify as women, they are often dysphoric because their bodies are not feminine, and this is why they put up with all the shit society throws at them - because the alternative is virtually unthinkable.

Anyone who knows the kind of abuse transwomen put up with on a day-to-day basis just for being trans would consider this idea somewhere between laughable, embarrassing, and dangerously misguided. This shit does not happen.

Now, as said, maybe you didn't actually think that. Maybe your phrasing is bad and your examples are bad and it doesn't, consciously or subconsciously, come down to this particular chestnut. But if so: what is this?

If a company is found to be sexist in their hiring practices and has to hire more women, but hires biological males claiming to be transgendered women, are they now less sexist? Have opportunities actually been created for women? I think that's where a lot of the feminist concern comes from. It may or may not be ill-founded concern, but I think that it's legitimate concern.
And today, in "things that definitely happen, no really guys, stop laughing": "A company with sexist hiring practices would rather hire transwomen than women". Yeah. Sure. That's definitely a thing that's ever happened ever.

C'mon, man.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 05-10-2019 at 08:18 AM.