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Old 09-09-2019, 10:33 AM
Gyrate is online now
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greater Croydonia
Posts: 23,976
Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Nonsense. They refused to negotiate before Article 50 was triggered, and so are completely to blame for the timing issues. Had they done so, either a workable deal would have been found before it was triggered, leaving 2 years to implement it or - more likely - it would have become clear that there is not workable deal possible, and it would never have been triggered in the first place.
No, this is nonsense. Before triggering Article 50, the UK should have had :1) a clear and agreed negotiating position for what it wanted to achieve (an actual negotiating position, not the vague "everyone gets a unicorn" one you mention); 2) an understanding of what was required to go from the status quo to that position; 3) an understanding of the actual timeframe required to achieve it; and 4) an experienced, competent and prepared team to carry out the negotiations on the UK's behalf. Had those things been in place, a reasonable agreement could have been achieved within the Article 50 timeframe.

Instead, the UK had no coherent position, negotiation plan, understanding of the requirements, or team who actually knew what they were doing. Theresa May triggered Article 50 purely for domestic political reasons based on unrealistic expectations of what could be achieved, an overinflated sense of the UK's negotiating position, no real preparation for the talks and an absolute shambles of a negotiation team. None of that is the EU's fault, and your insistence that the EU should save the UK from itself - including the bizarre insistence that they should have actively interfered in a domestic referendum - does not change any of that.

Ultimately, the EU should be acting to protect itself and its member states - and that includes the UK, a current member state. Instead, it has shown it is willing to harm both sides.
Again, it is not the EU's responsibility to save the UK from its own incompetence. While the Leave campaign has insisted that the EU is a tyrannical overlord overriding national sovereignty, this is not actually true and the EU cannot - and should not - be able to prevent a member state from leaving if it so chooses by its legitimate political mechanisms. Without rehashing the whole debate about the referendum itself, the UK has said it wants to go, it has used the appropriate mechanisms to do so, and the EU - while it has made all reasonable efforts to convince the UK not to leave - cannot stop it. And if the UK want to leave in the most half-assed way possible, that's its sovereign [sic] right.